(cache) Little quiz to test your knowledge about guns! [Archive]

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TucksonSonny

08-21-2006, 12:23 PM

Question:

A Jagdtiger is facing the M1A1 Abrams at 1 km distance.
Both tanks have no fuel left and can't move. Suppose that the Jagdtiger fires the first shot and suppose that it would be a hit on the front hull of the Abrams?
In case that you think that Abrams would survive the first shot and it would fire at the Jagdtiger on the front upper hull:

Who will win this fight?

General characteristics:

Jagdtiger (SdKfz 186):

Introduced: July 1944
Primary Armament: 128mm PaK 44 L/55
Combat Weight (kg): 71700
Armor protection: 250 mm armor on the front glacis (about 10 inches)
Armor protection front upper hull: 150mm@40â?
Speed on/off road: 38/17 km/h

M1A1 Abrams:

Introduced: 1985
Primary Armament: 120 mm M256 Smooth Bore Tank Gun
Combat Weight (kg): 63000
Armor protection front : Chobham armour and it is not fitted with reactive armor.
Chobham armour: a type of composite armor formed by multiple layers of steel and ceramics.
Speed on/off road: 72 km/h (45 mph)

TucksonSonny

08-21-2006, 12:23 PM

metteuh

08-21-2006, 12:31 PM

dunno jagdtiger wins?? because he has first shot
just guessing

Element_Five

08-21-2006, 02:45 PM

M1A1 Abrams ?

kapula_85

08-21-2006, 07:06 PM

You got your info wrong,the Jagdpanther had a 88 mm Pak 43/3 or 43/4 gun,not a 128 mm PaK 44 L/55.

Even thought it had the first shot,I would guess that the Abrams would win.

Woffer

08-21-2006, 07:34 PM

He said Jagdtiger and it did have a 128mm

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz12.htm

Flanker15

08-22-2006, 05:22 AM

If I would have a guess, I'd say the M1A1 would win. Since it uses modern SABOT depleted uranium shells and has an auto-loader and high computerised accuracy. If the first shot didn't kill the tank the second shot could be fired at the hole and would probably finish the job. Even the other tanks shot penetrated (which I don't think it would be likly) the M1A1 has safty and damage control systems to protect the crew and keep the tank functioning.

kapula_85

08-22-2006, 08:41 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Woffer:
He said Jagdtiger and it did have a 128mm
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

Sorry,my mistake. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TucksonSonny

08-22-2006, 02:08 PM

Very simple answer: At 1 km distance the M1A1 Abrams from 1985 has no chance (proposing the Jagdtiger had the 1st shot).
Even at 1,8 miles the Jagdtiger can pierce 7ââ‚¬Â of armor while having 10ââ‚¬Â of armor himself.
On the other hand the M1A1 Abrams his 120mm can also theoretically destroy any tank in the world today at a kilometer. Even the Iraqi T-72 could do this. But it is not yet proven that you could pierce
the 10 inches front armor @40â? of the Jagdtiger at 1 km with a standard NATO 120mm.. On the other hand with the 120mm reactive ammo used by the US (the US was officially denying the use of reactive ammo)it is another story.

Also rumors went around that the Abrams has survived multiple shots of the 125mm T-72 from close range by using reactive armor.

notoko

08-22-2006, 04:39 PM

Well at 1Km maybe, but it's not just the gun size and inches of armour, modern tank shells like SABAT, even an RPG-7 equipped with a tandom warhead will take out a modern tank. The Israeli army just found this out. I don't think any tank every made would survie a hit from a Abrams. It really how close can you get.

NeCron1986

08-23-2006, 02:21 AM

By the way... I really don`t think, that the M1-Abrams is the modest tank in the world.
In germany they developed the Main Battletank Leopard-2 A6.
This tank is, when it`s released, the modest tank in the world, by the way, also the strongest tank in NATO-forces.
The only tank, which could bring the Leopard in real trouble is the russian T-90.

Germany also builds the modest Submarines for coastal missions. These U-Boats have the insignia of a dose of Coke on hostile sonar.
So german military equipment is one the modest in the world.

metteuh

08-23-2006, 07:43 AM

so trucksonsonny witch is it now?
if its the jagdtiger, i was the only one who got it right http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

im was just guessing that who ever has first shot has more change of winning, i've expirienced this in soldiers.

TucksonSonny

08-23-2006, 11:25 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by metteuh:
so trucksonsonny witch is it now?
if its the jagdtiger, i was the only one who got it right http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

im was just guessing that who ever has first shot has more change of winning, i've expirienced this in soldiers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Metteuh you won definitely the quiz!

Anyway at 2000 meters the Jagdtiger still has the ability to survive the first shot in 2006 with his front upper hull of 150mm@40â? (more than 10ââ‚¬Â).

A little details about the today used ammunition:

The new 120mm M256 gun, firing the M829A1 APFSDS-T (Armor Piercing, Fin Stabilized Sabot and Tracer)
"Silver Bullet" ammunition proved to be extremely successful against Soviet and Chinese made tanks
that got in the way of the M1A1 Abrams tanks during Operation Desert Storm. Other rounds include the M829
(an early version of the M829A1, which entered service by 1985), and the M830 High Explosive Anti-Tank
(HEAT, which has a maximum effective range of 3,000 meters). Estimated penetration
performance (M829A1): 610 mm at 2000 meters.

The next generation ammunition, called 120mm APFSDS-T M829A2, entered service in 1994,
and is the current armor penetrator ammunition being produced by by the General Dynamics
Ordnance and Tactical Systems for the 120mm M256 gun of tanks M1A1 and M1A2. It is a technology
improvement over the M829A1, the "Silver Bullet" of Desert Storm fame. The new ammunition's
performance gains, while classified, result from several new features. These include the use of a
special manufacturing process to improve the structural quality of the depleted uranium penetrator.
This, plus the use of new composites for the sabot, which, together with a new propellant,
provide superior penetrator performance. Combined, these features increase the muzzle velocity
of the M829A2 approximately 100 m/sec greater than the M829A1 (up to something around 1,776 m/sec),
while operating at slightly lower pressure. Estimated penetration performance: 750 mm at 2,000 meters.

The 120mm APFSDS-T M829A3 is the third generation of depleted uranium armor penetrator tank rounds.
It will replace the M829A1 and the M829A2 projectiles. Although its armor penetration performance
is classified, this round is considered as the most powerful anti-armor ammunition in the world.
The A3 round will provide the M1A1 and M1A2 Abrams tanks with greater armor penetration capability
than previous generation depleted uranium penetrator rounds, while increasing accuracy. Estimated
penetration performance: 960mm at 2,000 meters.

Newer KE penetrators like the US M829A2 and now M829A3, have been improved to defeat the armor
design of Kontakt-5, used on the T-80U and T-90S main battle tanks. The M829A2 was the immediate
response, developed in part to take on this new ERA type. The M829A3 is a further improvement of
this as well and designed to fight future armor protection methods, like the newer Kaktus type,
which is currently only seen on prototype tanks such as the T-80UM2 "Chiorny Oriol" (Black Eagle) tank.

About DU rounds:

Depleted uranium penetrators have density two and a half times greater than steel
and provide high penetration characteristics, and a "pyrophoric" effect.
When the DU penetrator hits a tank's armor, both the penetrator and armor partially
liquefy under the tremendous pressure. Once the armour has been perforated, that part
of the penetrator which has not melted, together with the molten armour and fragments
that break away from the interior, ricochet inside the vehicle. This usually causes a fire,
and if it reaches stored ammunition inside the tank, leads to catastrophic explosions.

Amono2006

08-24-2006, 08:16 AM

I was browsing the forums and saw this message and had to register and ask: are you sure what you are saying??
M1A1 Abrams vs. Jagdtiger at 1000m. Achtung Panzer says that Jagdtiger can penetrate armour with panzetkranate39 143RHA@1000m and with panzerkranate40/43 167RHA@1000m and M1A1 front hull and turret armor is estimated 400-450mm vs. kinetic energy rounds. And I'm quite confident that M1 can penetrate Jagdtigers at frontal angles @1000m

TucksonSonny

08-24-2006, 12:39 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Amono2006:
I was browsing the forums and saw this message and had to register and ask: are you sure what you are saying??
M1A1 Abrams vs. Jagdtiger at 1000m. Achtung Panzer says that Jagdtiger can penetrate armour with panzetkranate39 143RHA@1000m and with panzerkranate40/43 167RHA@1000m and M1A1 front hull and turret armor is estimated 400-450mm vs. kinetic energy rounds. And I'm quite confident that M1 can penetrate Jagdtigers at frontal angles @1000m </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The quiz was a question with the condition ââ‚¬Å“Suppose that the Jagdtiger fires the first shot!ââ‚¬Â

The conclusion was also that at 1 km every tank talked about in this thread was able to pierce his opponent with 1 shot.

My point was also the fact that the Jagdtiger from 1944 could survive a shot at 2000 m (even with the most advanced tank ammo available: 120mm APFSDS-T M829A3: Estimated
Penetration performance: 960mm at 2,000 meters)

bertles

08-25-2006, 03:08 PM

You're not making a lot of sense.

Armor of Jagdtiger: 150mm = 5.9 inches

You later say it's 10 inches which is 254mm. It doesn't really matter which one it is as a modern sabot will pierce, as you stated, 960mm or 37.7 inches.

Direct contradiction. A sabot will most certainly destroy any WWII tank. Not only is the armor thin by todays standards, but it is simple in composition. Any modern sabot, HEAT or HEP shell is going to destroy it.

I also highly doubt that the round fired by the jagdtiger has any chance of piercing the frontal chobham armor of an abrams. The actual and fuctional (what its thickness would be if it was steel) thickness has never been officially disclosed but it is said to be from 400mm up. 400mm is the conservative thickness against a kinetic penetrator, which is 15.7 inches. Your Jagdtiger does nothing to it. I really don't understand this thread. If a 128mm gun firing WWII ammunition could defeat modern tanks what is the point of all these advanced SABOT rounds? Lets all just use 128mm shells that penetrate 160mm of armour which somehow translates to a million inches.

baffel

08-25-2006, 03:20 PM

Also you say the Abrams ammo can penetrate 610mm of armour at 2000m... 610mm = 61cm which is over half a meter... thats about 4 times the thickness of the armour of the tiger. So if the abrams survived that 1st shot and got 1 of its own off and on target, I dont think there would be much left.

Also if it is using the DPU sabot rounds it could probably go in one side and out the other..... if it werent for the fact that once the DPU rounds penetrate the armour they heat up exptraordinarily and vapourize everything with molten uranium.

I got another one for you.... An F-22 and a bf109-G10 were closing in on eachother and "ZOMG" ran out of fuel and ended up gliding. Who would win?

"If a Willy's jeep and a hummer ran out of fuel on the same road as they were coming towards each other, which would win?" The willy's has a rear facing .30 cal and the hummer has a .50 cal with a 360 arc.

oh oh oh... better yet.. a ship fired cruise missle and a farmer... they both run out of fuel 10 ft from eachother. Though the farmer did get the 1st shot!

TucksonSonny

08-26-2006, 02:37 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by baffel:
Also you say the Abrams ammo can penetrate 610mm of armour at 2000m... 610mm = 61cm which is over half a meter... thats about 4 times the thickness of the armour of the tiger.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

BTW, the Jagdtiger has sloped-armor of 40 degrees in the front.
Armour that is sloped sixty degrees back from the vertical has a line-of-sight thickness twice the armour's true thickness.

Thus the Jagdtiger his 10 inches sloped is actually like having almost 20 inches thickness armor! (anyway +16 inches)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by baffel: ... So if the abrams survived that 1st shot and got 1 of its own off and on target, I dont think there would be much left.

Also if it is using the DPU sabot rounds it could probably go in one side and out the other..... if it werent for the fact that once the DPU rounds penetrate the armour they heat up exptraordinarily and vapourize everything with molten uranium.

I got another one for you.... An F-22 and a bf109-G10 were closing in on eachother and "ZOMG" ran out of fuel and ended up gliding. Who would win?

"If a Willy's jeep and a hummer ran out of fuel on the same road as they were coming towards each other, which would win?" The willy's has a rear facing .30 cal and the hummer has a .50 cal with a 360 arc.

oh oh oh... better yet.. a ship fired cruise missle and a farmer... they both run out of fuel 10 ft from eachother. Though the farmer did get the 1st shot! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

BTW, The F-22 canââ‚¬™t glide...

Anyway about the quiz again: So you guys are thinking that the M1A1 Abrams (model 1985 without the use of reactive ammo) can survive a 128mm PaK 44 L/55 shot at 1000m range.

My point stays: none of the discussed tanks in this thread will survive at 1000m.
Anyway set that frontal armor of that Jagdtiger to 10ââ‚¬Â which is plus 250mm (my mistake).

Note: Piercing calculation example of a 128mm PaK 44 (Jagdtiger)

Result: The Jagdtiger can pierce a plate of 11 inches (279mm)
(WWII U.S. NAVY CLASS 'B' ARMOR/STS OF 115,000 PSI TENSILE STRENGTH)

128mm PaK 44 ammo (Armor Piercing Composite Rigid):

Diameter: 128mm (5.04 inches)
Weight: 28.3 kg (62.4 pounds)
Velocity: 950m/s (3117 feet/s)

http://users.skynet.be/fa894296/fow/128mmpiercing.jpg

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bertles:...it is said to be from 400mm up. 400mm is the conservative thickness against a kinetic penetrator, which is 15.7 inches... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Source please!