•
•

PM-Me-Beer and Zanctmao, two criminal defense attorneys, are here to answer all your questions in the next thrilling edition of LAOT AMA! (self.legaladviceofftopic)

ExpiresAfterUse が 投稿 - announcement

/u/PM-Me-Beer and /u/Zanctmao are doing an AMA today, starting at 3 PM EDT.

/u/Zanctmao is a lawyer in the pacific northwest who has represented juvenile and adult offenders both as a contract public defender and in private practice. At present his practice includes both civil and criminal matters. He has represented felony and misdemeanor clients and is uniquely familiar with the added burden placed on juvenile defendants and their attorneys.

/u/PM-Me-Beer] is a criminal defense attorney in New York that typically represents adults, which are as young as 16 in New York. He has worked in New York for a number of years and has plenty of "fun" stories to share about his time in criminal defense.

全 81 件のコメント
並べ替え:
ベスト
トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A

[–]ForgotMyOldPassword4 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

It started at 258 pm, please turn in your lawyer badge.

[–]--MyRedditUsername-- 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

Why do you consider prosecutors to be the true heroes of the legal profession, and what do you do on a daily basis to make their lives easier?

[–]PM-Me-Beer 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why do you consider prosecutors to be the true heroes of the legal profession?

Because like all true heroes, they have to have an arch-nemesis.

what do you do on a daily basis to make their lives easier?

Try to assist them in wasting less of their time with poorly substantiated cases.

[–]Zanctmao 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

One of my best friends is a prosecutor, He is also the commissioner of my Fantasy Football league, so I get him drunk. He is also the "Eddie Haskel" at my house, so my wife and I end up cooking him dinner very frequently.

Does that count?

[–]Zanctmao 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

Heyo I'm here. Also I guess Expires doesn't like me.

[–]demystTotally NOT a Yinz 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Well, he does like you. Just not as much as others.

[–]ExpiresAfterUse[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Maybe if he wasn't a Seahawks fan.

[–]demystTotally NOT a Yinz 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Good man. I dislike Seahawks fans too.

[–]ExpiresAfterUse[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

No, I usually do this stuff from a work laptop that doesn't have RES. I rarely use my personal.

[–]ExpiresAfterUse[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

Question from /u/Ramady:

Thank you both for ripping off my idea to do an AMA in here. I'll expect my royalty checks to be delivered by the first of next month.

Over the past few years, we've seen an awful lot of people pushing for various versions of criminal justice reform. Folks like the Black Lives Matter movement have gained a lot of steam focusing around police violence, and certain subsections of the libertarian and even the evangelical right have taken up arguments in favor of sentencing reforms for non-violent offenders and improved conditions for those currently incarcerated.

The two of you work on the front lines of this system, in a role that people usually don't think about. What do you think about the state of the current criminal justice system in the U.S., and the various efforts to reform it?

[–]PM-Me-Beer 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

The true efforts to "reform the justice system" don't exist, at least in any significant way. Black Lives Matter and related groups are doing far worse for these efforts than most people realize. When the police are terrified to go outside, that's when people start dying.

I think that these initiatives have to be taken up legislatively and with the police. Every policeman that leaves the desk should wear a body-cam, full stop. Rioting when a black kid dies isn't going to bring them back and it hasn't driven much significant change nationwide, but hard evidence like videos and actual statistics might.

[–]Zanctmao 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It is a national embarrassment. We imprison roughly 700 people per 100,000, by way of comparison France imprisons 100. There is no way we are 7 times worse than France (except in baked goods, they've really got us there).

The efforts to resolve it are mealy mouthed and bullshit. It isn't just non-violent offenders that need lesser sentences, it's the length of sentences that need to be reduced across the board (yes including for murder).

I like the British approach vis-a-vis murder. Everyone is presumed to be released after 20 years even if there is a "life" sentence. You get out and contribute. Who is the same person at 39 than they were at 19. It's ridiculous.

It also contributes to the problem - in that a 15 year sentence to a 20 year old might as well be a life sentence. They are out of the workforce during critical years of productivity, and come out at 35 with no meaningful skills whatsoever.

[–]ExpiresAfterUse[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Question from /u/surly_elk

I used to have an indigent neighbor who would routinely refuse to cooperate with his PD because they were "wrong", then would tell me how his "incompetent lawyer" lost him his "open and shut" case. Perhaps unsurprisingly, he is currently in jail. In that vein, have you ever been assigned uncooperative clients?

Could you describe the situation and how it impacted the case (obviously not positively, but were you able to work around it)? Do you have strategies for managing indigents who desperately need a good defense but don't necessarily want one (or know what constitutes one)?

[–]PM-Me-Beer 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

In that vein, have you ever been assigned uncooperative clients?

I don't typically do PD work, but I have had plenty of uncooperative clients that pay.

Could you describe the situation and how it impacted the case (obviously not positively, but were you able to work around it)?

I would say that a significant portion of my clients are "uncooperative" in one way or another. After all, you're working with a person's life and they obviously have a very significant stake in the outcome. Many times, they will have a strategy that they hope to pursue or refuse to take a deal.

Typically, it results in the individual paying quite a bit more money when they end up at trial. I'll still fight just as hard as I would otherwise, but sometimes there is only so much that you can do. In those situations, you just have to suck it up and keep fighting.

Do you have strategies for managing indigents who desperately need a good defense but don't necessarily want one (or know what constitutes one)?

I wish I did... There is only so much that you can do for someone that's hellbent on a certain direction. I can advise until I'm blue in the face, but I have to respect the client's wishes at the end of the day.

[–]Zanctmao 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I had a kid assigned as a client whose parents, or at least his dad was what you'd call a sovereign citizen - though we called them South County Constitutionalists. It got to the point that I forbade him from coming into the courtroom while his kid had a hearing, and I had to ask the mom to run cover. The kid learned a lot about the law and about how his dad was full of manure.

It didn't impact the case because we resolved it early on, and the Judge was clearly sympathetic to what I was going through.

On the civil side I've represented people being sued by Pro-se sov. cit. type litigants. It was awful. Awful. The court requires attorneys to be charitable and look for plausible arguments in the drek filed by these people. I've never lost, but it took 4x longer than necessary and my online ratings took a hit when he and his friends all decided to "review" me.

[–]ViewedFromTheOutside 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

To what extent do you think youth criminality could be reduced (if any) by greater knowledge of the law and associated punishments? (I'm a teacher; I see a lot of students who are tragically/hilariously misinformed about how the legal system works.)

[–]Zanctmao 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

Great question. I don't know that it can be. The problem has to do with perception of long term consequences, which is not the strong suit for young kids.

That said, our civics classes in middle and HS blow. The fact that a sizeable portion of the population believes that the police have to tell you if they are undercover is just one example of that stupidity.

I honestly think there should be a class called Adulting 101, 201, 301, and 401, taught at every year of HS. Basic criminal law would be part of it, particularly how the 5th amendment works and how and why the police are free to lie - and also a nuts an bolts level description of how courts actually work, why we have a jury system, and what happens when you ignore stuff like your mail.

Then it would include credit cards, mortgages, and why you should never ever lease a car.

[–]IDontKnowHowToPM 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

In my high school, there was a law enforcement class that was taught by the school's resource officer. It taught a lot of the stuff you mention, in addition to doing things like mock trials. It was very informative. Thanks to that class, I can now point out when an objection or line of questioning was done incorrectly when watching TV or movie trials, as well as a lot of investigative/procedural... procedures... that the police follow.

Just wish that a)every school had a class like that and b)more people took it when it's offered.

[–]Wil-Himbi 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

So why are police free to lie?

[–]snkns 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think it could be reduced in part by educating the kids about their civil rights. Not talking to police. Not consenting to searches.

Basically, it would help to assist our kids in getting away with minor offenses. These are the petty offenses that middle and upper-class kids are already getting away with, because they don't face a strong police presence/scrutiny in their lives.

As it stands right now, kids of all socioeconomic backgrounds do stupid stuff like shoplift, drugs, get in fights, etc. But poor kids are much more likely to come out of this with a criminal conviction.

That criminal conviction then makes it even harder for them to get employed, so they start committing more crimes to support themselves, and they become a full-blown lifelong criminal. Or it removes the incentive to remain crime-free. There's not a huge difference in employability between 1 conviction and 2, then 3, then 4. Basically, by giving them a better chance to not get caught for petty shit, you're giving them an opportunity to grow out of it.

Unfortunately in a country where sex ed is still controversial, I can't ever see middle schoolers receiving sanctioned lessons on their right to remain silent.

To answer your question more directly: Yes, I see a lot of 18 year old kids pick up their first adult case and are shocked at the punishments. I tell them they're going to prison for a year+ on a residential burglary and they say, "But I just got 30 days and probation on the same crime last year!"

I have to believe that a lot of my clients would have at least chosen a lesser crime if they knew. Or at least have worn gloves.

[–]PM-Me-Beer 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

As cynical as it may be, I don't think that you will be able to reduce criminality through simple education. Many individuals realize that there are significant consequences to their actions, yet they choose to take them anyway.

However, I do strongly advocate for stronger education on legal matters starting at a young age. I don't mean reading the Constitution or talking about how "drugs are bad", but real legal education. Especially in high school, kids need to be informed about their rights and how to deal with the police.

While I agree with /u/Zanctmao that personal finance matters are important, I don't believe that criminal matters are given nearly enough coverage.

Children are taught at a very young age that they should always be honest, that the police are there to help them, and often that they're "perfect" and only bad people commit crimes. At some point or another, almost every adult has broken a number of laws at some point in their life. It's important that educators learn to take a real-world approach and teach students about how this world works.

Your students are going to break the law at some point and they're going to have to deal with the police. For their sake, they need to be educated in that process and learn the police will lie, coerce them, and do what it takes to screw them. Of course, this isn't every police officer and I do respect that they have a job to do. However, these kids have to learn how to approach being caught with drugs, underage drinking, etc. and the various issues that they will almost certainly run into in their futures.

[–]WorstAdviceNow 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

How often is it that you get a client that feel is actually legally and factually innocent? I'm 100% behind the ideal that everyone deserves a fair trial and competent representation; but I'm curious how often you think police genuinely finger the wrong guy; not just fail to meet their high BRD burden.

[–]Zanctmao 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I hate to go all Bill Clinton on you, but it depends on what the definition of innocent is. If by innoncent you mean that they are purer than both fresh snow and a newborn lamb, no. If you mean not guilty - in that their actions literally did not meet the criminal standard, then Yes.

The police finger the wrong person on occasion, but usually they are right to one degree or another. I had a kid charged at the periphery of an attempted murder/burglary/stabbing. My kid was charged with several counts of accessory. My kid was dumber than any two boxes of rocks on a good day and had been doing random "drugs" (weird stuff that I had to learn about during this case) for two days. This kid definitely tagged along with these a-holes who did the crime, but they weren't a lookout, and they didn't know what was going on.

So that kid was on the periphery of a crime and charged with it, but had nothing approaching either the mens rea or the actual affirmative acts taken to qualify for conviction. Still I cannot fault the police for the arrest because they were associated with the people who actually stabbed the guy, and they were at the location.

[–]PM-Me-Beer 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Legally and factually innocent is somewhat hard to define. I would say that I see holes in a large majority of the cases that I take on. Frequently, the individual is both legally and factually innocent of the crime that they are charged with. However, they may also be guilty of another crime.

[–]jemand 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Related to this, have you ever regretted when a particular client got off entirely, when you personally believe they were guilty? How do you manage to both do your job, but also be empathetic to the human suffering of a victim of someone who is truly guilty, but can avoid consequences because of your work?

[–]Zanctmao 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nope. But I don't do sex crime defense work, so....

[–]PM-Me-Beer 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Related to this, have you ever regretted when a particular client got off entirely, when you personally believe they were guilty?

If you mean guilty in the layperson sense, in that "they did it", I have felt terrible about it in the past. I haven't ever "regretted" doing my job, because the prosecutor has to meet their burden of proof, but of course it sticks with you. As an example without giving too much detail, I had a client that paralyzed a younger teen who walked free on what many would consider a technicality. Of course, I was successful and did a damn good job, but hell if it didn't make it a bit harder to sleep at night.

How do you manage to both do your job, but also be empathetic to the human suffering of a victim of someone who is truly guilty, but can avoid consequences because of your work?

The truth of the matter is that you can't always do that. To be successful in criminal defense, in my opinion, you have to be desensitized to some extent. You have to be able to see the legal issues beyond the moral/emotional issues, or you won't last too long.

[–]ForgotMyOldPassword4 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

How do you feel about the age for being tried as an adult being do low in NY?

[–]Zanctmao 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well. That's more of a question for /u/PM-Me-Beer, but he isn't here yet.

I don't like it, but it's a nationwide thing. Kids who do serious crimes are treated as adults. It's unfortunate, but that's what happens. Society got sick of 16 year olds committing murder and being punished with 36 month sentences.

I think the mental development aspect should be considered, and that says people aren't fully "adult" until their early twenties. It is in effect a line drawing exercise, and that's where we've elected to draw the lines.

[–]PM-Me-Beer 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

I disagree with it, but I don't that there is a right answer. As /u/Zanctmao said, these lines have to be drawn somewhere. However, the age for most legal matters is drawn at 18, even in NY. At age 17, you can't sign a legally binding contract but you can be dragged into adult court. These 16 and 17 year olds, hell even some 18+, often don't have the capacity to fully understand the impact of their actions.

If we're going to force you to be 18 to sign a contract, why try them as adults at 16?

[–]ExpiresAfterUse[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

Question from /u/Treascair

Hot damn, I'm looking forward to this!

For Zanctmao: what's the youngest defendant you guys have ever had to represent?

hey PM-Me-Beer: What's one of the stranger cases you've dealt with that's resulted in either a happy ending or drinking more than usual.

And before I forget, thanks to both of you for taking the time to do this! I adore these AMA's!

[–]Zanctmao 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

I had a kid who was I think 10 or 11. In my state your are deemed competent to stand trial at 12 or 13, but between 9 and then your competency has to be established. Unfortunately, like the competency exams for adults, the questions are stupid and designed to elicit a positive response: "Do you know the difference between right and wrong" "Do you understand why it is important to tell the truth" etc.

In my case basically it was because the kid was a little rough and tumble and mom couldn't handle him well so she would call the police over trivial stuff. He kept wanting to go home, so he agreed to several plea deals that will follow him. Mom had him arrested again. I had him as a client two or three times over a two year period.

[–]Napalmenator 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Didn't CPS get involved? At some point it is a parenting issues. In Cali there is a hearing the a lot of prosecutors request (I don't recall the number) to decide if a kid should go CPS route or Juvi.

[–]Zanctmao 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

They may have, but this wasn't an abuse issue - or at least not in the convetional sense.

I haven't actually had a lot of interactions with CPS per se - lots of caseworkers, but few investigators. They don't like defense attorneys in my experience.

[–]Napalmenator 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Haha. I have few problems with attorneys other than they never return calls. Most CPS hate them I agree. Just one more hoop to try to get through. But I understand the need to protect everyone's rights.

Sounds like CPS would have been helpful to try and teach mom how to parent instead of trying to teach the kid then place him back in the crappy home.

[–]kickshaw 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

What are things you often wish you could yell at say to your clients (besides "Stop breaking the law, asshole")? What are mistakes that defendants like your clients make when they're involved with a legal case or an encounter with law enforcement?

[–]mybigthrow 2ポイント3ポイント  (8子コメント)

In all your years repressing clients in a criminal case, what was the wits way you've ever seen police or prosecutors violate your clients constitution rights?

Edit: worst way. Not wits way. Representing clients. My phone is a jerk sometimes. Also it wasn't much meant to be anti police. But a question to those in the field of law on protecting their clients rights to the best of their legal ability. That what they are there for after all right?

[–]Zanctmao 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Bad searches. That's about it. There are a lot of things that I think should be constitutional violations, but the war on drugs created so many exceptions that as a practical matter nothing is unconstitutional anymore.

[–]demystTotally NOT a Yinz[M] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (6子コメント)

repressing clients

Ideally, the defense attorneys are not doing that.

I'd like to take this opportunity to encourage people to take this seriously. This is a place to learn interesting things, not push internet agendas with emotional and biased questions. It is my sincere hope that this thread remains civil and informative for everyone.

[–]surly_elk 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

I think it might be a typo and they meant "representing"? Hopefully? They are also asking about the "wits" way, which I don't think is an actual way to violate rights, so I think there might be some autocorrect going on.

A better way to phrase it would likely be about "manipulating the client" as opposed to violating their rights.

[–]demystTotally NOT a Yinz 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think it might be a typo and they meant "representing"?

Yeah, I'm sure they did. There are a few typos, including "your clients constitution rights," but I wanted to latch onto that one as an example to make my larger point about a civil discussion.

The question, to me, is basically "what is the worse case of terrible cops fucking over the little guy?" I think there is a good discussion to be had about Brady violations, constitutional violations, etc. However, the way this question was phrased made it sound like the start of the anti-police brigade. Thus, my message about being civil and informative.

[–]surly_elk 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Not disagreeing with that. There was definitely a hot-button agenda behind that question, especially with how it was worded. A++ mod work!

[–]demystTotally NOT a Yinz 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

A++ mod work!

You hear that, /u/ExpiresAfterUse? Who is the top student now?

[–]mybigthrow 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I meant to say representing. Phone.

[–]demystTotally NOT a Yinz 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Gotcha, thanks for the correction.

I knew what you meant, just wanted to make a larger point overall regarding how I hope this discussion will go.

[–]ExpiresAfterUse[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Question from /u/Anti_Obfuscator

Great you're doing this. What role has the internet played in your practices over the years?

Does the instant availability of information mean that your clients self-inform about their situation, and if they do, is this a good or bad thing?

[–]Zanctmao 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

So I'm a post internet lawyer. I've only used the actual books to look up case law a few times. I do all my research online.

Also, specific to criminal matters, particularly juvenile - Kids are dumb. Like really dumb. Everything they do is online - whether it is Facebook, Instagram, or whatever. I have a young girl in my office who is 90% of the time a file clerk. The rest of the time she is a detective. She went to school locally, so is a friend-of-a friend with almost half of the people involved in my juvenile cases. When I get one that will rely on witness testimony: she is printing off their FB posts, their twitter feeds, everything she can find.

Really great for impeachment if neccesary, or alibi, or whatever.

[–]PM-Me-Beer 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

What role has the internet played in your practices over the years?

I'm a post-internet lawyer as well, so like /u/Zanctmao I do all of my research online. The constantly evolving internet and social media make this job infinitely harder. It's no longer a question of what evidence the client put out him/herself, but where it is. Whether it's Facebook, Snapchat, Instagram, Twitter, Blogs (little more old-school), etc. there is always something. Text messages have served a significant and similar function.

Does the instant availability of information mean that your clients self-inform about their situation, and if they do, is this a good or bad thing?

It can be both a good and a bad thing. I think the internet serves a great purpose in doing preliminary research and staying informed on current issues, but it can be a negative. To be more specific, I hope that my potential clients have learned about their rights online and are somewhat aware of what they need to do to preserve them. After all, I do believe that the internet is the best way to reach out to the masses on this. However, when the shit hits the fan, you need an attorney.

To provide an analogy that may make more sense. If you have a cough, it doesn't hurt to Google it and learn that you should drink some tea and honey and rest for a bit. If you start coughing up blood, get your ass to the hospital.

[–]ExpiresAfterUse[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Question from /u/Neee-wom

What are your thoughts on the impact of plea deals on the judicial system, particularly for juvenile offenders?

[–]PM-Me-Beer 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I can't speak to juvenile offenders specifically, but I think that they can be both good and bad. Unfortunately, the deal-making nature of criminal defense can lead to quite a bit of bad convictions. In my experience, prosecutors tend to overcharge so that they can eventually plea it down to something lower.

Even if you're entirely innocent, there may be 100 reasons why you do not want to let it go to a jury trial. At that point, you're stuck between a rock and a hard place. You either take the deal for a lower crime that you didn't commit, or you take your chances at getting convicted at trial.

[–]Zanctmao 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Necessary evil. So long as we as a society prioritize arresting so g-d many people, there is a need to process them. We don't like paying for courts, judges, and juries but we like arresting people a whole lot.

The solution has been the plea deal. The prosecutor will give an offer which isn't terrible but will otherwise add a ton of charges if you go to trial and push for a long sentence. Even when your client is not-gulity sometimes it's worth it just for the certain small punishment rather than a month or a year in jail - particularly when you consider that 30 days in jail = bankruptcy or homelessness for most people.

Personally I'd like to see 75-90% of cases pleaing out pre-trial rather than 99% which is where it is at right now. That way there'd be a better chance for the bad police to lie on record and eventually get fired, more grounds for appeals, and most importantly more investigation of cases.

The dark secret, at least in larger cities/jurisdictions, is that there is one filing deputy (typically a 3L or brand new law grad) who reads the police report and recommends charging or not. These people do not have experience. They tend to overcharge. But they also draft the offer. So there has been little to no investigation beyond the police. Then it is assigned to a negotiating deputy who handles the pretrial calendars and what not. If you push to trial it goes to a trial deputy. Often it is only at that point that anyone besides the initial officer even really looks at the case. That is after the plea deal window has typically closed, but often when the case is dumped.

If trials were a larger part of the equation, there would be more investigation on the front end.

[–]ExpiresAfterUse[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

For those of you wondering, a "3L" is a third year law student.

[–]frisian2 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

First of finally an AMA that I'm actually able to attend live.

So I guess that I've got to ask a question, well let me make that two questions. I hope that you can answer those because they might be good reading material.

  1. What was your thoughest case? (let me explain this one, I don't mean the thoughest case to win but I mean either the case you are the proudest of of having gotten the result you got or the case the case that was the most emotional case you've had, since both are though).

  2. Which case gave you the best laugh in your career?

Good luck with the AMA, hopefully those are a couple of decent starting questions to easse you guys into it and to let everybody whom usually doesn't get into contact with lawyers that often see the human aspect of the job.

edit: when I said I hope you can answer those I off course mean: answer those in a manner that doesn't provide any way to identify any of the parties who where part of the situation.

[–]AmbrosiusAurelianus 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Two questions, for both of you:

  1. Do you ever wish you had gone into a different field of law? Alternatively, is there another field you find intriguing outside of criminal law (or criminal defense specifically)?
  2. What advice do you have for someone who's considering going back to school for their J.D.? I've had a lot of people telling me it's not worth it as the job market is awful for lawyers.

[–]PM-Me-Beer 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do you ever wish you had gone into a different field of law?

Not particularly. I love what I do and I think that's an experience that I wouldn't be able to get elsewhere.

Alternatively, is there another field you find intriguing outside of criminal law (or criminal defense specifically)?

I've always found corporate litigation very interesting. I got a business degree in undergrad, so I always thought I'd end up at a white-shoe firm handling their M&A transactions. However, I'm not sure that I'd ever be happy with pushing papers day in and day out. White collar is more fun anyway :)

What advice do you have for someone who's considering going back to school for their J.D.?

You better be damn certain that you want to be a lawyer. Don't go back to "learn more about the law" or because you think that it will help you find a non-attorney position. Additionally, if you aren't accepted to a T14 school, it's probably not worth the additional expense in this market.

Edit: T14 = Top 14: The "best" 14 law schools as defined by a number of online lists/rankings

[–]ExpiresAfterUse[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Question from /u/DrayKitty1331

Awesome of y'all to do this

What's the most "did that just come out of your mouth?!" moment you've had with someone you were representing?

What are your favorite clients you've represented?

[–]Mo0 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

What's the worst behavior you or someone you've witnessed/heard of has ever inflicted on the local clerk's office?

To piggyback off of a previously posted answer, do you think "post-internet lawyers" have an actual advantage in a profession that, generally speaking, is very reluctant to embrace new technology? I realize a lot of attorneys are willing to embrace it, but the courthouses and agencies you deal with generally aren't.

[–]Evan_Th 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've heard around the blawgosphere that a disproportionate number of judges are former prosecutors, and they tend to go easier on other prosecutors at the expense of defendants' rights. Do you see that as a problem? If so, what (realistically) do you think could be done about it?

[–]ExpiresAfterUse[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Question from /u/Napalmenator

For Zanctmao and Beer - what do you think of services for juvi? Good, insufficient, meeting needs of the kids? Is there a deficiency that you see in helping our kids? Do judges take abuse history into account at all?

[–]Zanctmao 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

The problem is that juvenile court is, but shouldn't be where a lot of kids get services for the first time. So really it's a reflection on the schools and parenting that the issues come out when the cuffs go on.

The primary deficiency is at home, unfortunately. That said, the services are good, very good in some cases - but it is an "ounce of prevention - pound of cure" type problem.

[–]Napalmenator 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Agreed. There were some cases that CPS and Juvi probation would work too figure out who had the best services for a kiddo.

If the money were there, more services in schools. Or even knowledge of available services. Texas has free evaluation services and some in home services but no one knows because they don't advertise or reach out to populations. Only if you work with kids do you know about it.

[–]ExpiresAfterUse[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Question from /u/EngineerSib

What advice do you have for young, aspiring lawyers (of which I am not one, as I am neither young nor an aspiring lawyer)?

What's one thing you expected to happen that turned out to be completely wrong/different?

What's one thing you never expected from being a criminal defense attorney but that you have come to value over time?

[–]PM-Me-Beer 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

What advice do you have for young, aspiring lawyers (of which I am not one, as I am neither young nor an aspiring lawyer)?

That they need to shake off their rosy idealism as soon as possible. Many young lawyers and law students seem to enter the legal world with a view that everything is "by the book" and that the other side will do everything properly. It usually takes a few "scorched earth" cases to end that illusion.

What's one thing you expected to happen that turned out to be completely wrong/different?

I fell victim to the "defending the wrongfully accused" mindset that's common in the field. A lot of the time, it's more of damage mitigation than damage prevention. You're negotiating deals and seeking the best for your clients, but they're not always the perfect innocent members of society that you'd like to think. However, it's also for that reason that they need a solid defense. Judges and juries are quick to write these people off as lost causes, even when there is a valid legal argument to be presented.

What's one thing you never expected from being a criminal defense attorney but that you have come to value over time?

The "find the needle in the haystack" strategy. I'm sure that there's a better way of putting it, but I'm referring to being able to find that one tiny aspect of a case that will return a not guilty verdict. You get so used to filing motions and making deals that it's easy to miss those smaller aspects, but it's great when you can find them.

[–]ExpiresAfterUse[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Question from /u/ADAdummy

/u/PM-Me-Beer,

Recent LS grad here who starts next week at one of the NYC (DA) offices appeals bureau. Am I a monster? Am I 1963 Bruce Jacob? Just kidding (kinda).

Do you have any insight as to what criminal appellate practice is like in NYC? Any cases you ever had to argue yourself or pass off? I imagine with young adults/borderline juveniles there would be a lot of legal issues to argue that could have gone up to appeals. This could also fit with the AMA theme, so if /u/Zanctmao [+1] has any equivalent stories from the PNW, I would love to read them.

I have never worked on appeals for either side, so I have no idea what to expect and would love to know if you have any practitioner insight. Truthfully, I'm picturing a lot of nerds.

Also if either of you have any generalized advice for a newly minted ADA, I would love to hear some from your perspective.

[–]PM-Me-Beer 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Any cases you ever had to argue yourself or pass off?

Quite a few, yes. Many of the issues have seemed to revolve around bad searches in one form or another.

I have never worked on appeals for either side, so I have no idea what to expect and would love to know if you have any practitioner insight.

You're going to be dealing with quite a bit of poorly argued appeals. Post-conviction, everyone wants to appeal their case. As a newer attorney with the appeals bureau, shit rolls downhills so to speak. At least early on, it's fairly unlikely that you work on many significant legal issues. However, do your best to find the needles in the haystack that may have been overlooked.

Also if either of you have any generalized advice for a newly minted ADA, I would love to hear some from your perspective.

Whatever you do, please don't lose sight of the real people sitting at the other table. The choices that you make could possibly ruin a person's life, so you better make damn sure that you remember that. It's easy to lose sight of reality when you're dealing with stacks of paperwork, but that is when some of the work mistakes are made.

[–]ExpiresAfterUse[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Question from /u/coldbrewski

Another recent law grad here. I don't do/ever plan on doing crim. work, but so much respect for all the PDs and crim defense attorneys out there. Question for both of you: what are some common issues you see troubling attorneys (new or experienced) when defending juveniles?

unnecessary context for the Q: I read some book during 3L spring (bc 3LOL) written by an attorney who did defense in primarily death penalty cases. He included some accounts of his representation of juveniles and that shit made me lose so much faith in our justice system. (maybe I was just naive ¯_(ツ)_/¯)

EDIT: book was called "just mercy" if anyone reading this cares

[–]zuuzuu 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

We see a lot of people in the main sub saying they can't afford an attorney, Most who can't will qualify for a public defender, but there will always be those who sit on that bubble between making too much to qualify for a public defender but genuinely not able to pay a retainer. The most common advice given is to try to find a lawyer who will work out a payment plan with them. Is this something either of you have done for clients? If you have, do those clients usually come through with their payments?

[–]Zanctmao 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes and yes. I've taken payment plans but generally only for clients who aren't looking at lengthy jail terms.

More people sit on that bubble than you'd believe. Very few people can afford private misdemeanor counsel, and even fewer a felony. A bare bones DUI defense starts at $3,500 here, and that's for a first offense. Felonies are at least double. Very few people have ten grand in their bank account ready to go.

[–]TotesMessenger 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:

If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads. (Info / Contact)

[–]Old_Trees 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Has anything during your time as a lawyer radically changed how people approach legal matters?

[–]Evan_Th 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

To both of you (and any other lawyers interested in chiming in):

What's one thing you would dearly like the police in your jurisdiction to change in their policing?

[–]Evan_Th 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

To /u/Zanctmao: How are criminal and civil practice different in the "trenches" of daily work? If you had to specialize in one, which one would it be, and why?

[–]Zanctmao 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Criminal law is a lot more courtroom focused, as compared with civil litigation. In a civil case you often don't see the inside of a courtroom for the first six months or more. Whereas you're back before the same judge every 30-60 days on criminal matters because of the 6th amendment and speedy trial issues.

If I had to pick, I'd probably do exclusively civil. Crim law is fun, but it is really repetitive. After a while it's the same people committing the same crimes. The saddest people I know are the guys who only do DUI work. The problem is that middle class people with money don't tend to get arrested for anything else, and gang members generally cannot afford private counsel.

I like the mixture however. I get valuable trial time with the criminal cases, which actually makes me a better civil litigator because most such attorneys do one trial every couple of years, if that - where as I have many under my belt.

[–]ViewedFromTheOutside 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

What is the biggest factors driving up the cost of a legal defense for most clients? What would be necessary to lower it? (Not trying to put you out of business here!)

[–]Wil-Himbi 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Have you ever played any of the Ace Attorney games? Our any lawyer based video games for that matter. What did you think of them?

[–]PM-Me-Beer[M] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sorry I was a bit late to the game here, but I'll be around through the night! To clarify my bio a bit, I do most of my work in NYC with paying clients. I typically handle sex/violent crimes and occasionally drug crimes, depending on what comes up the chain.

Though I will occasionally handle cases with younger adults, they certainly aren't the majority of my client base.

[–]Anti_Obfuscator 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Popular true crime podcasts such as Serial, Undisclosed, and TV such as 'the Jinx' or 'Making a murderer' seem to have caught a nerve in the public. They have unintentionally or not put a spotlight onto the justice system, and levied accusations about prosecutorial misconduct, and grand jury manipulation.

You are two lawyers on opposite sides of the continent. Do you think these shows are showing the true picture? Is the system in need of reform from your point of view?

[–]StillUnderTheStars 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Nice paste job with the RES tags.

[–]ExpiresAfterUse[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't know what you are talking about....

[–]ExpiresAfterUse[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Lets say I am looking at Murder 1 charges in either WA or NY. Ballpark me, how much money are we talking?