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PM-Me-Beer and Zanctmao, two criminal defense attorneys, are here to answer all your questions in the next thrilling edition of LAOT AMA! (self.legaladviceofftopic)

ExpiresAfterUse が 投稿 - announcement

/u/PM-Me-Beer and /u/Zanctmao are doing an AMA today, starting at 3 PM EDT.

/u/Zanctmao is a lawyer in the pacific northwest who has represented juvenile and adult offenders both as a contract public defender and in private practice. At present his practice includes both civil and criminal matters. He has represented felony and misdemeanor clients and is uniquely familiar with the added burden placed on juvenile defendants and their attorneys.

/u/PM-Me-Beer] is a criminal defense attorney in New York that typically represents adults, which are as young as 16 in New York. He has worked in New York for a number of years and has plenty of "fun" stories to share about his time in criminal defense.

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トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A

[–]--MyRedditUsername-- 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

Why do you consider prosecutors to be the true heroes of the legal profession, and what do you do on a daily basis to make their lives easier?

[–]Zanctmao 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

One of my best friends is a prosecutor, He is also the commissioner of my Fantasy Football league, so I get him drunk. He is also the "Eddie Haskel" at my house, so my wife and I end up cooking him dinner very frequently.

Does that count?

[–]ForgotMyOldPassword4 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

It started at 258 pm, please turn in your lawyer badge.

[–]Zanctmao 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

Heyo I'm here. Also I guess Expires doesn't like me.

[–]demystTotally NOT a Yinz 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Well, he does like you. Just not as much as others.

[–]ExpiresAfterUse[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Maybe if he wasn't a Seahawks fan.

[–]demystTotally NOT a Yinz 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Good man. I dislike Seahawks fans too.

[–]ExpiresAfterUse[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

No, I usually do this stuff from a work laptop that doesn't have RES. I rarely use my personal.

[–]ExpiresAfterUse[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Question from /u/Ramady:

Thank you both for ripping off my idea to do an AMA in here. I'll expect my royalty checks to be delivered by the first of next month.

Over the past few years, we've seen an awful lot of people pushing for various versions of criminal justice reform. Folks like the Black Lives Matter movement have gained a lot of steam focusing around police violence, and certain subsections of the libertarian and even the evangelical right have taken up arguments in favor of sentencing reforms for non-violent offenders and improved conditions for those currently incarcerated.

The two of you work on the front lines of this system, in a role that people usually don't think about. What do you think about the state of the current criminal justice system in the U.S., and the various efforts to reform it?

[–]ForgotMyOldPassword4 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

How do you feel about the age for being tried as an adult being do low in NY?

[–]Zanctmao 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well. That's more of a question for /u/PM-Me-Beer, but he isn't here yet.

I don't like it, but it's a nationwide thing. Kids who do serious crimes are treated as adults. It's unfortunate, but that's what happens. Society got sick of 16 year olds committing murder and being punished with 36 month sentences.

I think the mental development aspect should be considered, and that says people aren't fully "adult" until their early twenties. It is in effect a line drawing exercise, and that's where we've elected to draw the lines.

[–]PM-Me-Beer 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I disagree with it, but I don't that there is a right answer. As /u/Zanctmao said, these lines have to be drawn somewhere. However, the age for most legal matters is drawn at 18, even in NY. At age 17, you can't sign a legally binding contract but you can be dragged into adult court. These 16 and 17 year olds, hell even some 18+, often don't have the capacity to fully understand the impact of their actions.

If we're going to force you to be 18 to sign a contract, why try them as adults at 16?

[–]ExpiresAfterUse[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Question from /u/Treascair

Hot damn, I'm looking forward to this!

For Zanctmao: what's the youngest defendant you guys have ever had to represent?

hey PM-Me-Beer: What's one of the stranger cases you've dealt with that's resulted in either a happy ending or drinking more than usual.

And before I forget, thanks to both of you for taking the time to do this! I adore these AMA's!

[–]Zanctmao 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I had a kid who was I think 10 or 11. In my state your are deemed competent to stand trial at 12 or 13, but between 9 and then your competency has to be established. Unfortunately, like the competency exams for adults, the questions are stupid and designed to elicit a positive response: "Do you know the difference between right and wrong" "Do you understand why it is important to tell the truth" etc.

In my case basically it was because the kid was a little rough and tumble and mom couldn't handle him well so she would call the police over trivial stuff. He kept wanting to go home, so he agreed to several plea deals that will follow him. Mom had him arrested again. I had him as a client two or three times over a two year period.

[–]ViewedFromTheOutside 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

To what extent do you think youth criminality could be reduced (if any) by greater knowledge of the law and associated punishments? (I'm a teacher; I see a lot of students who are tragically/hilariously misinformed about how the legal system works.)

[–]Zanctmao 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Great question. I don't know that it can be. The problem has to do with perception of long term consequences, which is not the strong suit for young kids.

That said, our civics classes in middle and HS blow. The fact that a sizeable portion of the population believes that the police have to tell you if they are undercover is just one example of that stupidity.

I honestly think there should be a class called Adulting 101, 201, 301, and 401, taught at every year of HS. Basic criminal law would be part of it, particularly how the 5th amendment works and how and why the police are free to lie - and also a nuts an bolts level description of how courts actually work, why we have a jury system, and what happens when you ignore stuff like your mail.

Then it would include credit cards, mortgages, and why you should never ever lease a car.

[–]IDontKnowHowToPM 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

In my high school, there was a law enforcement class that was taught by the school's resource officer. It taught a lot of the stuff you mention, in addition to doing things like mock trials. It was very informative. Thanks to that class, I can now point out when an objection or line of questioning was done incorrectly when watching TV or movie trials, as well as a lot of investigative/procedural... procedures... that the police follow.

Just wish that a)every school had a class like that and b)more people took it when it's offered.

[–]StillUnderTheStars 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Nice paste job with the RES tags.

[–]ExpiresAfterUse[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't know what you are talking about....

[–]ExpiresAfterUse[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Question from /u/Anti_Obfuscator

Great you're doing this. What role has the internet played in your practices over the years?

Does the instant availability of information mean that your clients self-inform about their situation, and if they do, is this a good or bad thing?

[–]Zanctmao 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

So I'm a post internet lawyer. I've only used the actual books to look up case law a few times. I do all my research online.

Also, specific to criminal matters, particularly juvenile - Kids are dumb. Like really dumb. Everything they do is online - whether it is Facebook, Instagram, or whatever. I have a young girl in my office who is 90% of the time a file clerk. The rest of the time she is a detective. She went to school locally, so is a friend-of-a friend with almost half of the people involved in my juvenile cases. When I get one that will rely on witness testimony: she is printing off their FB posts, their twitter feeds, everything she can find.

Really great for impeachment if neccesary, or alibi, or whatever.

[–]ExpiresAfterUse[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Question from /u/Neee-wom

What are your thoughts on the impact of plea deals on the judicial system, particularly for juvenile offenders?

[–]PM-Me-Beer 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I can't speak to juvenile offenders specifically, but I think that they can be both good and bad. Unfortunately, the deal-making nature of criminal defense can lead to quite a bit of bad convictions. In my experience, prosecutors tend to overcharge so that they can eventually plea it down to something lower.

Even if you're entirely innocent, there may be 100 reasons why you do not want to let it go to a jury trial. At that point, you're stuck between a rock and a hard place. You either take the deal for a lower crime that you didn't commit, or you take your chances at getting convicted at trial.

[–]ExpiresAfterUse[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Question from /u/surly_elk

I used to have an indigent neighbor who would routinely refuse to cooperate with his PD because they were "wrong", then would tell me how his "incompetent lawyer" lost him his "open and shut" case. Perhaps unsurprisingly, he is currently in jail. In that vein, have you ever been assigned uncooperative clients?

Could you describe the situation and how it impacted the case (obviously not positively, but were you able to work around it)? Do you have strategies for managing indigents who desperately need a good defense but don't necessarily want one (or know what constitutes one)?

[–]PM-Me-Beer 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

In that vein, have you ever been assigned uncooperative clients?

I don't typically do PD work, but I have had plenty of uncooperative clients that pay.

Could you describe the situation and how it impacted the case (obviously not positively, but were you able to work around it)?

I would say that a significant portion of my clients are "uncooperative" in one way or another. After all, you're working with a person's life and they obviously have a very significant stake in the outcome. Many times, they will have a strategy that they hope to pursue or refuse to take a deal.

Typically, it results in the individual paying quite a bit more money when they end up at trial. I'll still fight just as hard as I would otherwise, but sometimes there is only so much that you can do. In those situations, you just have to suck it up and keep fighting.

Do you have strategies for managing indigents who desperately need a good defense but don't necessarily want one (or know what constitutes one)?

I wish I did... There is only so much that you can do for someone that's hellbent on a certain direction. I can advise until I'm blue in the face, but I have to respect the client's wishes at the end of the day.

[–]frisian2 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

First of finally an AMA that I'm actually able to attend live.

So I guess that I've got to ask a question, well let me make that two questions. I hope that you can answer those because they might be good reading material.

  1. What was your thoughest case? (let me explain this one, I don't mean the thoughest case to win but I mean either the case you are the proudest of of having gotten the result you got or the case the case that was the most emotional case you've had, since both are though).

  2. Which case gave you the best laugh in your career?

Good luck with the AMA, hopefully those are a couple of decent starting questions to easse you guys into it and to let everybody whom usually doesn't get into contact with lawyers that often see the human aspect of the job.

[–]AmbrosiusAurelianus 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Two questions, for both of you:

  1. Do you ever wish you had gone into a different field of law? Alternatively, is there another field you find intriguing outside of criminal law (or criminal defense specifically)?
  2. What advice do you have for someone who's considering going back to school for their J.D.? I've had a lot of people telling me it's not worth it as the job market is awful for lawyers.

[–]ExpiresAfterUse[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Question from /u/DrayKitty1331

Awesome of y'all to do this

What's the most "did that just come out of your mouth?!" moment you've had with someone you were representing?

What are your favorite clients you've represented?

[–]WorstAdviceNow 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

How often is it that you get a client that feel is actually legally and factually innocent? I'm 100% behind the ideal that everyone deserves a fair trial and competent representation; but I'm curious how often you think police genuinely finger the wrong guy; not just fail to meet their high BRD burden.

[–]mybigthrow 0ポイント1ポイント  (8子コメント)

In all your years repressing clients in a criminal case, what was the wits way you've ever seen police or prosecutors violate your clients constitution rights?

Edit: worst way. Not wits way. Representing clients. My phone is a jerk sometimes. Also it wasn't much meant to be anti police. But a question to those in the field of law on protecting their clients rights to the best of their legal ability. That what they are there for after all right?

[–]Zanctmao 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Bad searches. That's about it. There are a lot of things that I think should be constitutional violations, but the war on drugs created so many exceptions that as a practical matter nothing is unconstitutional anymore.

[–]demystTotally NOT a Yinz[M] -1ポイント0ポイント  (6子コメント)

repressing clients

Ideally, the defense attorneys are not doing that.

I'd like to take this opportunity to encourage people to take this seriously. This is a place to learn interesting things, not push internet agendas with emotional and biased questions. It is my sincere hope that this thread remains civil and informative for everyone.

[–]surly_elk 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

I think it might be a typo and they meant "representing"? Hopefully? They are also asking about the "wits" way, which I don't think is an actual way to violate rights, so I think there might be some autocorrect going on.

A better way to phrase it would likely be about "manipulating the client" as opposed to violating their rights.

[–]demystTotally NOT a Yinz 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think it might be a typo and they meant "representing"?

Yeah, I'm sure they did. There are a few typos, including "your clients constitution rights," but I wanted to latch onto that one as an example to make my larger point about a civil discussion.

The question, to me, is basically "what is the worse case of terrible cops fucking over the little guy?" I think there is a good discussion to be had about Brady violations, constitutional violations, etc. However, the way this question was phrased made it sound like the start of the anti-police brigade. Thus, my message about being civil and informative.

[–]surly_elk 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Not disagreeing with that. There was definitely a hot-button agenda behind that question, especially with how it was worded. A++ mod work!

[–]demystTotally NOT a Yinz 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

A++ mod work!

You hear that, /u/ExpiresAfterUse? Who is the top student now?

[–]mybigthrow 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I meant to say representing. Phone.

[–]demystTotally NOT a Yinz 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Gotcha, thanks for the correction.

I knew what you meant, just wanted to make a larger point overall regarding how I hope this discussion will go.

[–]ExpiresAfterUse[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Question from /u/Napalmenator

For Zanctmao and Beer - what do you think of services for juvi? Good, insufficient, meeting needs of the kids? Is there a deficiency that you see in helping our kids? Do judges take abuse history into account at all?

[–]Zanctmao 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

The problem is that juvenile court is, but shouldn't be where a lot of kids get services for the first time. So really it's a reflection on the schools and parenting that the issues come out when the cuffs go on.

The primary deficiency is at home, unfortunately. That said, the services are good, very good in some cases - but it is an "ounce of prevention - pound of cure" type problem.

[–]ExpiresAfterUse[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Question from /u/EngineerSib

What advice do you have for young, aspiring lawyers (of which I am not one, as I am neither young nor an aspiring lawyer)?

What's one thing you expected to happen that turned out to be completely wrong/different?

What's one thing you never expected from being a criminal defense attorney but that you have come to value over time?

[–]ExpiresAfterUse[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Question from /u/ADAdummy

/u/PM-Me-Beer,

Recent LS grad here who starts next week at one of the NYC (DA) offices appeals bureau. Am I a monster? Am I 1963 Bruce Jacob? Just kidding (kinda).

Do you have any insight as to what criminal appellate practice is like in NYC? Any cases you ever had to argue yourself or pass off? I imagine with young adults/borderline juveniles there would be a lot of legal issues to argue that could have gone up to appeals. This could also fit with the AMA theme, so if /u/Zanctmao [+1] has any equivalent stories from the PNW, I would love to read them.

I have never worked on appeals for either side, so I have no idea what to expect and would love to know if you have any practitioner insight. Truthfully, I'm picturing a lot of nerds.

Also if either of you have any generalized advice for a newly minted ADA, I would love to hear some from your perspective.

[–]ExpiresAfterUse[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Question from /u/coldbrewski

Another recent law grad here. I don't do/ever plan on doing crim. work, but so much respect for all the PDs and crim defense attorneys out there. Question for both of you: what are some common issues you see troubling attorneys (new or experienced) when defending juveniles?

unnecessary context for the Q: I read some book during 3L spring (bc 3LOL) written by an attorney who did defense in primarily death penalty cases. He included some accounts of his representation of juveniles and that shit made me lose so much faith in our justice system. (maybe I was just naive ¯_(ツ)_/¯)

EDIT: book was called "just mercy" if anyone reading this cares

[–]zuuzuu 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

We see a lot of people in the main sub saying they can't afford an attorney, Most who can't will qualify for a public defender, but there will always be those who sit on that bubble between making too much to qualify for a public defender but genuinely not able to pay a retainer. The most common advice given is to try to find a lawyer who will work out a payment plan with them. Is this something either of you have done for clients? If you have, do those clients usually come through with their payments?

[–]Zanctmao 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes and yes. I've taken payment plans but generally only for clients who aren't looking at lengthy jail terms.

More people sit on that bubble than you'd believe. Very few people can afford private misdemeanor counsel, and even fewer a felony. A bare bones DUI defense starts at $3,500 here, and that's for a first offense. Felonies are at least double. Very few people have ten grand in their bank account ready to go.

[–]TotesMessenger 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:

If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads. (Info / Contact)

[–]Mo0 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

What's the worst behavior you or someone you've witnessed/heard of has ever inflicted on the local clerk's office?

To piggyback off of a previously posted answer, do you think "post-internet lawyers" have an actual advantage in a profession that, generally speaking, is very reluctant to embrace new technology? I realize a lot of attorneys are willing to embrace it, but the courthouses and agencies you deal with generally aren't.

[–]ExpiresAfterUse[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Lets say I am looking at Murder 1 charges in either WA or NY. Ballpark me, how much money are we talking?