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Looking for rational discussion (self.AskThe_Donald)

elbanofelizNon-Trump Supporter が 投稿

I'm not going to lie I am a supporter of Hillary Clinton, but I wanted to hear from the other side of the aisle instead of hearing the same stuff parroted about on the rest of reddit. I have not been able to find an actual discussion about Trump supporters when I ask on reddit. All I get back in response are stupid things generalizing (and demeaning) the views of people that support Mr. Trump.

The fact that there is so much support for him means that something he is saying/doing has struck a chord with a large portion of the population and I am interested in what the root of that is. So, I thought that I would come here to see if anyone would be willing to talk about what what things you guys like about Mr. Trump.

What personal qualities about him resonate with you?

What policies do you think he would fight for as president that appeal to you?

I am not trying to start some internet argument or anything, I am just genuinely interested in hearing your points of view.

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[–]DevFroNimble Navigator[M] [スコア非表示] stickied comment (11子コメント)

Moderator note: These types of threads are highly encouraged and are a great opportunity for both sides to share perspective. We ask that both sides participate in good faith and would like to remind all non-supporters that /r/AskThe_Donald is a place to ask Trump supporters from /r/The_Donald questions.

These threads (and this forum) aren't a place for Nimble Navigators to troll or bash non-supporters or post nonconstructive comments. Instead, they give us a chance to share our perspective with the other side and in some cases change their opinions on certain topics. So, do just that -- tell /u/elbanofeliz why you are voting Trump this fall, whether it's because of his character, his positions, or because you're upset with the left or the establishment. Those stuck in the echo chamber on the default subs and /r/politics don't get to see this side of the story very often and they'll often be surprised to find out that we share a lot of the same ideas and have the same endstate of wanting what's best for our country.

Thanks for reading and Make America Great Again!

Edit: Thank /u/viking83 for getting this thread stickied over at /r/The_Donald!

Those of you from /r/The_Donald who want the Nimble Navigator flair here can simply type --nimble and a bot will do it for you.

[–]lurkwellmyfriendsNimble Navigator 167ポイント168ポイント  (139子コメント)

Personal qualities:

  • Anti-PC, anti-BS - probably the biggest for me. There's so many of us who are just sick to death of lies, distortion, propaganda, political expediency, subversion, media BS ... etc, etc

  • Sure of himself and his message; takes no BS and gives none

  • Will admit a mistake instead of doubling or tripling down on narratives and lies

  • Genuine - I believe him when he says he's doing this because he loves this country and feels that he has no choice but to try to right the ship

  • Family man with plenty of empirical evidence denoting a warm, caring, charitable individual

Policies:

  • The big ones for me include:
    • Immigration (Americans first, includes visa abuse)
    • Trade (America first; fair but tough; fix the debt and deficit)
    • Anti-globalist (lumped w/ the first two)
    • Law & order - enforce it fairly and uniformly for everyone
    • Anti-corruption, anti-cronyism - purge D.C.
    • Federalism - return power, structure, and decision making to the state and local level. Gives citizens much more say and control over how they are governed. Includes education and healthcare - eliminate Common Core and Obamacare
    • Economy - a symptom of everything outlined above. Encourage competition and growth. Get the government out of "regulating" the economy. The results here are clear.

Thanks for coming on and (hopefully) asking a genuine question.

[–]2016PoliticsNimble Navigator 61ポイント62ポイント  (0子コメント)

YES...I agree!!!

Law vs Lawlessness

  • During Trump's speech about "violence, riots, and destruction" in Milwaukee, he talks about how everyone benefits from safe communities, the law-abiding African American citizens who suffer from these riots, Democrats being in power leading up to this incident (Dem President x8 years, Dem leadership in Milwaukee and other cities which see the highest rates of violence-Detroit, Chicago, Oakland, bad areas in LA....), and how it would help EVERYONE if we can enforce our laws and put an end to these violent outbursts. People have a right to petition our government for redress of grievances. That does NOT grant the right to burn buisinesses, homes, and cars to the ground and engage in complete lawlessness.

  • Trump received the first-ever endorsement from Border Patrol Unions and continues to get endorsements from police departments and Sheriffs accross our country.

OTHER

[–]elbanofelizNon-Trump Supporter[S] 37ポイント38ポイント  (95子コメント)

Thanks for the reply, I can see the merit in the things that you said. I do agree that we should put America first, but not necessarily at the expense of non-Americans. I believe that is what he is doing with some of his proposed immigration policies.

In terms of eliminating common core I am interested in why you think we should eliminate it and what you think the most viable replacement would be. Common core has some serious issues, but the concept behind it is a very sound and researched idea, especially in the area of mathematics. In math common core has brought a much heavier emphasis on learning basic math principles( pattern recognition, logic, etc.) rather than the tricks and memorization techniques we previously were teaching.

[–]lurkwellmyfriendsNimble Navigator 104ポイント105ポイント  (73子コメント)

I do agree that we should put America first, but not necessarily at the expense of non-Americans. I believe that is what he is doing with some of his proposed immigration policies.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. It's my feeling/perspective that America is taken advantage of on a large scale with respect to trade, military protection for 'allies', and general charitable endeavors on a global scale.

It's a debate for another time, but a lot of this comes down to personal perspective and beliefs. You contend that enforcing the borders and immigration laws comes at an 'expense' to non-Americans; that's certainly your right to feel that way, but I don't think it's an expense. I feel badly for those in need around the world and would like to help them as much as possible, but at what cost - and are they helping themselves?

Anyway, everyone has different thoughts and feelings.

Re: Common Core -

  • 1) What's good for one is not necessarily good for all. Common Core attempts uniformity on a very individual subject: learning and education. Why should those who excel in a given subject - such as mathematics - be held back by an artificial uniform standard? We all have strengths and weaknesses - that's why individual instruction is important.

  • 2) A federalized, uniform education system is the road to suppressing and crushing individual thought and achievement. "There is only the state. The state will take care of you." Seems an awful lot like communist indoctrination. ... I believe in teach children how to think, not what to think.

  • 3) Education should be organized at a local level. The reasoning is that this gives parents much more say and control over how their respective children are being educated and what they are being taught. If education is federalized, then every parent is placing their child's education into the hands of the federal government. We are not a communist state (yet) - individual choice and control over one's - and/or their child's - education should never be stripped away. This should never happen in a free, individualized society.

[–]EnderG715Non-Trump Supporter 23ポイント24ポイント  (0子コメント)

As a parent I could not have said this any better myself. Thank you!

[–]Good_Behavior_DayNimble Navigator 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

As a sidenote on education, one of the bigger problems I see is there's a whole consulting industry built up around it. Salesmen approach local school districts and state legislatures to sell them the latest and greatest education tools and methods. Board members and legislatures want to be seen as supporting education, so they go for any half-baked scheme. Every chalkboard gets replaced with a smartboard, costs go up, and there's yet another property tax referendum.

[–]lurkwellmyfriendsNimble Navigator 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yep. It's always all about the money.

[–]NydusurmainusNon-Trump Supporter 14ポイント15ポイント  (34子コメント)

Who are the allies that are taking advantage of America's military?

[–]HippieremoverNimble Navigator 48ポイント49ポイント  (17子コメント)

Everyone who is not spending at least 2% of GDP on defense. NATO rule.

[–]TotallyNotanOfficerNimble Navigator 28ポイント29ポイント  (16子コメント)

And there are only 5 countries in NATO that spend at least 2% of GDP on Defense. The United States of America (3.6%), Greece (2.4%), Poland (2.2%), The UK (2.1%) and Estonia (2%).

http://www.defenseone.com/politics/2015/06/nato-members-defense-spending-two-charts/116008/

[–]Mint-berry-crunch33Non-Trump Supporter 22ポイント23ポイント  (11子コメント)

Amazing that Greece can manage, considering they also have a crippling debt problem. Why can't the rest of NATO (w/exception to Poland/UK/Estonia) pay the fair and agreed upon amount?!

[–]Arkin_LonginusNon-Trump Supporter 15ポイント16ポイント  (1子コメント)

Because Greece and Turkey are regularly sniping at each other with everything but bullets? The turkish Air Force regularly violates Greek airspace and the Greeks return the favor as best they are able. The Navy's are also screwing with each other at every opportunity.

You don't hear about it in the news because it's "old news" ever since the unifying enemy of the two, the Soviet Union, fell this business has been going on.

[–]KaarousNimble Navigator 15ポイント16ポイント  (7子コメント)

The real story there is that if Estonia is beating you, you're fucked up.

They don't pony up the agreed upon amount because they don't think they have to. They've gotten complacent and lazy under America's protection. It's why they have such bloated social programs in Europe, because their common defense isn't something they actually have to do themselves.

That's why I support Trump's goal to redefine or pull out of NATO. Because the way it works right now just isn't fair. I'd rather have a pseudo feudal protection pact, where they pay us for military defense, than what we have right now.

[–]hoot1991Nimble Navigator 6ポイント7ポイント  (6子コメント)

I don't see why you can't do something like ANZUS with Europe. No financial requirements, just the promise that you'll be there when the shit hits the fan.

I'm not saying Australia doesn't mooch off the US military too - the US Navy are basically all that's stopping China from slapping us around like their bitch but we don't expect you to actively subsidize us.

[–]KaarousNimble Navigator 7ポイント8ポイント  (5子コメント)

I don't see why you can't do something like ANZUS

Ah ha! I know of that program, actually, and something like that would work equally as well in my eyes.

Whatever we replace it with, we don't need NATO anymore. There is no more Soviet Union, and it's mandate has expired. We need to be embracing the Russians, not doing what we have been for the last decade.

[–]SMTTT84Nimble Navigator 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

They used this trick where they completely crash their GDP. It's understandable why the rest of Europe would hesitate to try the same method.

[–]HippieremoverNimble Navigator 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, what's so wrong with expecting all countries to pay their fair share? If Greece and Poland can do it why can't France, Germany?

Edit: UK is paying enough, my bad

[–]redditinflamesNimble Navigator 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Are you fucking kidding me? There are like 28 piece of shit unicorn cocksucker all-white socialist countries in Europe. Those people NEED TO PAY.

So how easy it is to give everyone in your country of 1m $1,000 a month when you realize America isn't going to come save you from Russian interests.

[–]Sheltie12Non-Trump Supporter 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

"piece of shit unicorn cocksucker"- worth the upvote alone.

[–]ElMeanYoNon-Trump Supporter 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'd like to remind everyone that the 2% thing was only recently suggested for NATO members as a target for 2024, and members are not beholden to it. Maybe they should be... but they have until 2024.

[–]crushed_edgeNon-Trump Supporter 23ポイント24ポイント  (5子コメント)

*sigh* our new excessively pussified Canadian liberal government who pulled our jets out of the fight against ISIS and is now dragging their heels on new jets/military spending in general, mostly because they feel America will save us no matter what.

[–]ChanceTheDogNimble Navigator 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Lucky for you chaps we certainly will. We can't have our neighbors from the north get fucked with without wielding a fist of iron on retaliation. America isn't about sitting on its laurels when there's a fight about.

Problem is, America is poor at picking a proper fight, and we get stuck fighting goat herders in Afghanistan. How are you going to mobilize several battalions of marines to fight a couple dozen Marlboro men, that's like nuking a bee hive.

[–]Trumpthulhu-FhtagnNimble Navigator 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

Lucky for you chaps we certainly will.

Until we can't... then everyone is fucked.

[–]ChanceTheDogNimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I cannot envision a time or a place where the United States can't or won't come to the aid of a major ally, especially one so close, against a massive foreign invader. If China or Korea or anyone decided to drop bombs and paratroopers into Canada you'd have to hold back the marines from marching up there without orders.

[–]Trumpthulhu-FhtagnNimble Navigator 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't mean we wouldn't; I mean we couldn't.

Imagine a USA that is self-occupied with our own military dealing with BLM terrorism, Cartel terrorism and muslim terrorism - and perhaps a back lash of white survivalists taking the law/communities into their own hands.

Imagine a USA where Bernie Sanders' insane communist policies get implemented and it brings us to Venezuelan level disaster and the military is needed to protect food.

Or even imagine a USA that is engaged in multiple full scale military conflicts in multiple parts of the world. US boots in turkey, and iraq, and afganstian, and our navy poking back at China, and the threat of Putin's expansionist intents,..

Empire collapse through unsustainable expansion of interests. We need to look after our own. In fact that was one of the most unexpected and mind blowing things that Trump said meeting with the President of Mexico... after loyalty to the USA, we should next implement a coalition that supports our hemisphere above other, not feed on each other. Tribal strength is the only sustainable strength.

コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

    [–]StJimmy92Nimble Navigator 17ポイント18ポイント  (1子コメント)

    A lot of Europe maintains a rather pathetic military because 1. They aren't planning on getting in any offensive wars and 2. Because if they have need of a defensive war they're relying on the US to come and save them.

    [–]tholinzNon-Trump Supporter 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Basically all of them. Seriously. Every single one of our allies understands that they can rely on American military force to come to their aid in a crisis. This has led to some irresponsible spending habits on the part of these countries - especially in Europe and Asia - where funds that would normally be allocated to defense are instead funneled into social entitlement programs.

    Israel is the only major ally I can think of that doesn't do this.

    [–]tipsy3000Non-Trump Supporter 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Actually if you look deeper those nations that do keep up with defense spending, Greece, Poland, Israel (BTW they aren't in NATO so they aren't even required), notice how these nations all have potential rivilary and bad war history with their neighbors?

    They understand what happens when your on the front lines and don't have the best your nation can afford in defense. Where as the economic power houses can barely do 1% GDP because what's the threat to their country and people?

    [–]ObnoxiousMammalNimble Navigator 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Any country in NATO that is not putting the required 2% of their GDP into their military. Right now, of the 28 countries in the alliance, only 5 of them are meeting the target (the USA, Poland, Greece, the UK, and Estonia), none of the other countries are at the required amount, not even Germany or France. US military support is a large reason why these countries can get away with not spending the amount they are supposed to on their military.

    Source

    [–]lurkwellmyfriendsNimble Navigator 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

    NATO - we do the bulk of the work with the bulk of the resources. Trump is absolutely correct when he asserts that member nations/countries benefit from NATO / the US without paying. I'm all for helping to protect our allies, but this is in dire need of restructuring.

    Ex: Japan. We're on the hook for essentially all of their military needs ... At the same time they incur no costs. Not to mention they kill us in trade. This has to change.

    [–]bewarethephogNimble Navigator 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Japan is tricky. They essentially cannot create a viable military as that will cause a great deal of unrest with China and Korea. Both of those countries still have a deep seeded hatred with Japan for World War II atrocities.

    While we are on the hook for their defense needs they are also a huge ally economically. They dont kill us in trade. They are one of the few countries with companies that open manufacturing plants HERE in America. Toyota, Honda, Mitsubishi, Sony, etc.

    [–]Original_DanksterNimble Navigator 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Canada for sure. We're serious freeloaders - bigly. Not only do we half-ass our commitment to spending for defence vis a vis NATO, we are also the tag-along useless little brother when it comes to NORAD. We shirked the US on Ballistic Missile Defence even when it would cost us nothing - the US agreed to pay for 100%, all they needed was some BMD sites in Canada. But no, defensive missile shields were too "aggressive" and "war-like" for Canada.

    [–]elbanofelizNon-Trump Supporter[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (33子コメント)

    I think you may have some misconceptions about common core. The goal is to make curriculum and standards uniform from state to state, not to make the teaching of every child the same. There are still accelerated classes, children can take classes above their grade level if they have the aptitude, and most states have gifted programs or something analogous to them in their public schools.

    Individual instruction is undoubtedly better, but there simply is no way to have more individual instruction unless we have more teachers, which means increasing our state/federal education budget. This has absolutely nothing to do with common core.

    I also do not see how common core relates to your second and third points. In no way does common core infringe on an individual's right to teach their child how they want to teach them. Private schools and home schooling are still just as much an option. If you go to a public school it is only rational that you will get the same type of education that anyone else at a public school will get.

    To your third point about education being at a local level, that is what we have been doing for a long time by letting states choose their curriculum. While it has worked wonderfully in some states (like New York) in others it has led to children getting extremely unacceptable educations (Arizona, Mississippi). The goal of common core is to ensure that you are given an acceptable education regardless of the state that you live in.

    [–]kryptkeeper17Non-Trump Supporter 29ポイント30ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Not the person you replied to but common core is changing the way states like New York education works which you say has worked well. A government should work to improve education in subpar states but why apply those same changes to states where education has been successful? It could ruin the success those states have had

    [–]Sweet_tendies_lovingNimble Navigator 15ポイント16ポイント  (13子コメント)

    My wife is actually a teacher in Texas, so she has a non common core based teaching degree. Tonight when we are both home I will have her reply to this comment. She is very anti common core and has heard some horror stories from other teachers. She will be able to explain this much better than me but it isn't so much the base of common core that is the problem but how it ties the teachers hands in how they teach it if I understand correctly.

    [–]365_onlineNon-Trump Supporter 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I'm an IT guy in a family of educators, all who teach high school and/or special ed in Texas. They feel tied down by common core, especially for the students who are struggling because it's hard to use the different education techniques you've learned in college when you're trying to teach everyone the same way.

    [–]beretta92pedeNimble Navigator 13ポイント14ポイント  (7子コメント)

    This.

    My stepdaughter showed us her daughter's math homework once. It completely blew me away in how overly complex, awkward conceptual gymnastics are used to make it allegedly visual, conceptual, etc. instead of teaching plain old base-ten, carry the one???

    My poor step-granddaughter is miserable, hates math now (and she's not stupid). Had I been taught math that way, not only would I not have gone to engineering school, I wouldn't be able to balance a damn checking account.

    [–]KaarousNimble Navigator 8ポイント9ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Was she drawing the little stack of bricks? Isn't that absolutely idiotic?

    [–]beretta92pedeNimble Navigator 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

    No, it was some horrible thing with making a shitton of dots and then having to circle 10 of them or 100 of them. Probably the same idea, though. Visual relative spatial comprehension or some such total bullshit.

    Her eyesight is very poor. Those dots were unmitigated hell for her, and I'm pretty sure she had already grasped the general concept long ago.

    [–]KaarousNimble Navigator 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Visual spatial comprehension or some such total bullshit.

    Jesus. You can teach that with Legos, you don't need to make them draw it.

    [–]beretta92pedeNimble Navigator 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Absolutely.

    コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

      [–]redditinflamesNimble Navigator 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I hated school so bad when common core was introduced. Recesses cut down nearly to nothing, classes were longer, stricter rules governing what the kids could do. I certified in 11th grade jumped through all the hoops and got out a year early by passing the state tests. Started working. Wish I could have done that 3-4 years earlier. I'd be retired at 40.

      コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

        [–]OberonCloneNon-Trump Supporter 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

        RemindMe! 1 day

        How does this thing work?

        [–]flaco_74 13ポイント14ポイント  (6子コメント)

        Common Core does infringe on educational freedom in my experience. My children attend a Catholic school in NY which is required to follow the Common Core curriculum, as do nearly all of the other schools in the city. The other options I was able to find were either Montessori programs or home schooling. Home schooling is out of the question as both my wife and I work long hours. After researching the Montessori programs, they did not seem like a good fit for my children. Therefore, I was left with very limited choices. Your statement about people having options is highly dependent on whether they can afford it. I'm going to go out on a very short limb and say that not many can.

        [–]rednibiaNon-Trump Supporter 10ポイント11ポイント  (2子コメント)

        You have the choice to decide where you live, what people to vote for, etc. You will find in areas where the education system is terrible there's very little parent engagement and as a result nobody 'rights' the ship. Common core doesn't solve the problem, because for kids in those schools it's way too high level, causing kids to be sitting in a class learning nothing because it's all too difficult.

        In a good school, it's an anchor.

        'Common core' is also just a symptom of federal and state control.

        Source: Finally gave up and quit teaching after 6 years to become a computer programmer. I was teaching programming and they insisted on rating me using a generic rubric every cycle, even though it made no sense for my curriculum that was all on the computer and was 100% designed for a liberal arts class. The principal told me the state of NY didn't allow her to modify the rubric.

        [–]OprahNoodlemantraNon-Trump Supporter 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        You have the choice to decide where you live

        I wish.

        コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

          コメントをもっと表示する (3 返事)

            [–]lurkwellmyfriendsNimble Navigator 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Thanks for your response, it's a good discussion.

            but there simply is no way to have more individual instruction unless we have more teachers, which means increasing our state/federal education budget.

            ^ This is a chicken/egg argument. The Department of Education exists almost solely to expand itself - using more tax dollars while ushering in more bureaucracy. The idea that more government overreach will solve educational problems is folly.

            The idea should be to reward merit, encourage competition, and champion teachers and schools that excel. This can only be done effectively at a local level. Once you apply artificial, uniform standards to schools (or anything, really) you are incentivizing them to meet those standards no matter what. The goal becomes "meet the standard" as opposed to "educate the child".

            I encourage you to watch this video when / if you have time: 'The Dangers of Common Core' - a very good and frank discussion regarding education and Common Core.

            As for your rebuttal on points 2 and 3, I again think this comes down to individual perspective. I see federal control of education as a huge step in the wrong direction with the danger of championing the state as opposed to championing the child. You see it differently - I disagree, but I respect your view.

            [–]shemp33Nimble Navigator 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

            I'm not sure why all the downvotes - it's a particularly well written response, but I have some comments I'll add to counter.

            The goal of common core may be to make the curriculum and standards uniform from state to state.... a novel goal indeed, but what it's turn into is teachers teaching it, and teaching just to the test. Not only are they teaching to the test, they know the state testing is a certain day in April. And to maximize the likelihood of success on that state test, on that one day in April, the school districts have pulled forward the start date of the school year into mid August (for us, and I've heard beginning of Aug for others), solely for the sake of getting in more matriculation days in before the test. But, there's unintended consequences there, in that now kids are going back to school in weather that's not conducive to the learning environment, i.e. too hot, and not everyone has air conditioning.

            It's a good idea on paper, but man, are there some problems with it in implementation.

            [–]lurkwellmyfriendsNimble Navigator 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

            ^ Yes. "Standardization" means "meet the standard" as opposed to "educate the child".

            How many 'free-thinkers' have we snubbed with standardized education? It literally makes me cry.

            [–]-StupidFace-Nimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

            I've noticed this a lot too, they are teaching for the test, so the school gets a good grade, and keeps getting better funding.

            I have no idea what anyone is learning but they better be passing that test!

            [–]FUDefaultModsNimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

            The goal is to make curriculum and standards uniform from state to state, not to make the teaching of every child the same.

            How are those two things not identical? If one state has the same curriculum and standards as another state, the teaching of the children of those two states will be the same, won't it?

            [–]god_damned_kidsNon-Trump Supporter 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

            In instructional technology, and would like to point that this is a huge misconception we run into on the daily. I'd say this is one of the ingrained behaviors that's been hardest to change. Personalizing instruction (as opposed to individualizing) doesn't require more teachers. Technology and innovation (used more effectively) can take that place. The whole industry is shifting in that direction. More money into a failing system has pretty much already been nixed from the conversations.

            Have you ever taught young minds? Or have children? I don't think it's as clear cut as "In no way does common core infringe on an individual's right to teach their child how they want to teach them." I'd say it's a bit of a skewed framework to approach the problem. Can expound if interested

            [–]workaccount45Non-Trump Supporter 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Except not everyone needs to go to college. The work force is hurting now for skilled technicians. Welders, HVAC, plumbers, pipefitters, boiler makers, machinists; I can go on, but we quite simply don't have enough skilled labor. I work at a company that just brought in 50 welders from Puerto Rico to help complete a project on time.

            With Common core, we have, in practice, taken away a lot of technical courses from schools. No more wood/machine shop classes where kiddos can learn a skill. Instead we have them focus on a test they need to graduate, instead of skills that gets them paid later on.

            [–]KaarousNimble Navigator 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

            The goal is to make curriculum and standards uniform from state to state

            Yeah, that's a bad thing. It would be a bad thing even if Common Core's curriculum wasn't sub par.

            The goal of common core is to ensure that you are given an acceptable education regardless of the state that you live in.

            The goal is a federal takeover of a local program. The goal is for the feds to be able to say with absolute power what is or is not an acceptable education.

            And that is not a good thing.

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                [–]obeseredditadminNimble Navigator 20ポイント21ポイント  (1子コメント)

                I do agree that we should put America first, but not necessarily at the expense of non-Americans. I believe that is what he is doing with some of his proposed immigration policies.

                I am a non-American, and this makes absolutely zero sense.

                The American government has one job. To further the interests of America.

                Non-Americans did not vote for the American government, the American people did. To do anything else is to fail at the people that voted them in.

                [–]Thats-right-JayNon-Trump Supporter 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                It's a laughable argument. I can guarantee you that the Mexican government does not have the interests of American citizens at its heart.

                "Hmmm, having our poorest people go across the border illegally to undercut American workers for jobs without speaking English is a serious problem for our friends up north. We must help them with that," said no Mexican politician ever.

                [–]Pegs520Nimble Navigator 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

                I was on the frontlines when common core was still being rolled out. It's nonsense.

                They're still trying to teach tricks and memorization techniques. The difference is they're making every teacher do it the same way.

                Teachers don't all teach the same way. Do you think forcing them to teach in a manner they're uncomfortable with is a good thing? In the same manner, children don't all learn the same way - how do you think that's going to work?

                And the testing...ugh. Cue the .jpg of telling all the forest animals they're being judged on tree climbing abilities - with the monkey looking excited, and the fish looking terrified. That's how it actually is with these children in elementary schools and tests. Not everyone is a good test taker. Not everyone can be judged by just taking a big test.

                So, the teachers hate it. The children hate it. Who loves it? Government officials, who have probably never spent a full day in a classroom. Go figure.

                How about we bring back creativity and individuality to the classroom - for teachers AND children?

                [–]IntrixinaNimble Navigator 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

                The problem is, something has to give in a 'someone first' situation - its actually a compromise when you think about it, not necessarily 'at the expense' of something.

                The bit which makes me a Trump supporter, above all else, is the fact that he's anti-bullshit and anti-politically-correct-nonsense. These things are destroying the world as we know it today, and its refreshing to see that someone shares the same views as I do and is not afraid to say it, even despite opposition. He also sees the huge problems with allowing people into the country who refuse to assimilate and actively wish to do harm upon citizens, and whos views are incompatible to a Western society. In other words, he calls a spade a spade.

                He's a genuine kind of guy, too - his altruistic deeds are often not reported on heavily, because he doesn't want the attention from them. Someone of his calibre could very easily demand this, however, he doesn't - and this attests to his true nature.

                (I say this as a non-American, I'm from halfway across the globe in fact, thus I cannot vote for Trump directly, however, I do support him)

                Its nice to see a Hillary supporter who is rational and is not believing the lies being spewed on media, and that you are seeking more information about the other side. Hope we are giving you things to think about!

                [–]flaco_74 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

                There are many issues with the Common Core. The people who conceived it have a political and social agenda beyond just teaching the facts. http://thefederalist.com/2016/01/21/james-okeefes-common-core-videos-are-just-the-tip-of-the-iceberg-part-ii/ That's just one example. Which is not to say that the way history is taught currently in our country is objective. However, indoctrinating children into leftist belief systems is not my idea of a proper solution.

                Regarding the math, I will admit that I initially agreed with your sentiments as to the novel ways of solving problems. However, seeing those methods put into practice firsthand with my two eldest elementary school age sons quickly changed my opinion. There is something to be said for using the old fashioned educational techniques from the time I was in school. My children responded much better to the tried and true methods rather than the convoluted new techniques. Anyway, it's just anecdote on my part, but personal experience was enough to sway me away from Common Core.

                [–]KaarousNimble Navigator 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

                but the concept behind it is a very sound and researched idea, especially in the area of mathematics.

                I was a TA in college, and a professional tutor for a while.

                CC is an abomination, especially in math and English. Rote standardization retards learning across the board. I disagree with the very concept of Common Core, along with it's implementation.

                Human beings are not computers. You cannot teach them all the same way.

                [–]beretta92pedeNimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                This exactly. Young people are being taught to be regurgitators, not thinkers. That is a big huge problem to me.

                [–]KaarousNimble Navigator 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                And the worst part is that it's masquerading as learning the process, when it's merely rote memorization. Actually understanding the process means that you don't need to draw friggin' bricks to know how to multiply. All you need is to understand the basic principles of Order of Operations.

                [–]Brett17Nimble Navigator 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                The reason many here feel America first, even at the expense of non-americans is because we are the citizens of our own country. Many of us feel alienated with our own government, with all the ghettos, the riots, the problems we have as Americans on a day to day basis. When our government tells us it wants to fix others problems, like the Syrians or whatever it may be with our tax dollars, we feel that those resources should be going towards fixing our problems that we have had for decades before trying to fix others. We are tired of being unemployed and struggling on a day to day basis to make ends meet. Even further than that, ideally our government should always helping us first than anyone else. After all, we are the citizens of our own country, we are the ones who pay into the tax system that so many politicians claim will help us. Its not that we don't feel empathy, because many of us do. Things like the Syrian refugees and more is horrible to us. But with many factors such as ISIS being a thing and the difference in cultures and where the hell do we even stick them when we are even struggling to make ends meet? So its a plethora of things that make up this mindset.

                [–]mahaanusNon-Trump Supporter 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                I believe that is what he is doing with some of his proposed immigration policies.

                This video although non-partisian, not related to this election and having nothing to do with Trump, explains why immigration policies do not solve third-world problems.

                [–]ashara_ladybrightNimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                I haven't read every comment in this thread, but I think a really illuminating presentation on immigration and the impact on world poverty is best described by this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE

                [–]LyrdNon-Trump Supporter 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Common core has some serious issues, but the concept behind it is a very sound and researched idea, especially in the area of mathematics. In math common core has brought a much heavier emphasis on learning basic math principles( pattern recognition, logic, etc.) rather than the tricks and memorization techniques we previously were teaching.

                Well you know what they say about an idea that's good on paper.

                As for the pattern recognition, most of common core algebra techniques fail this.

                The "old way" of arithmetic is logical and teaches children the concept of having a base ten number system.

                The "old way" makes the "math situation" of 4239 + 2435 + 7913 easy for a grade schooler if they are taught it properly. "Carry the number" is not an arbitrary memorized technique but simply teaching and aplying the concept that a number like 13 is "10 and 3" which in a base-10 number system is the most (if not only) logical way to divide that number for the purposes of manual arithmetic calculations.

                It isn't a "trick", its how Arabic numbers work.

                [–]BlenderTacosNimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                As a Trump Supporter currently attending high school, I'll pitch in on the common core debate. Common core, imo, doesn't work because it assumes every child is the same and needs the same education to succeed. Every student requires a different education system to give them the knowledge required to succeed. If someone wants to grow up to be a farmer, they don't need to learn about calculus and about themes and motifs within Shakespeare's plays. They need to learn about ecology and about how to tend to the land. If somebody wants to grow up to become a carpenter, they need to learn about real world math and physics, not abstract algebra and astrophysical theorems. Obviously if someone is going to pursue a job in the sciences they would need to know those things, but not the carpenters or the farmers. This is a big reason why I think that the "poorly educated" support trump so much. They know that you don't need a formal education to be intelligent and succeed in your field. In my opinion, individualized, internship based schooling is the best way to fix our failing education system. We need to engage our students in the real world and train them for what will really happen on their job sites in the future. This type of learning is so much more effective than reading (often unnecessary) information out of a book in a classroom. My brother attends an internship based high school and he now travels the country (still in high school) and gives talks at international conferences, has meetings with the Koch brothers, and has connections to powerful people at Ivy League and similarly top tier schools. At a traditional, common core school he was a solid C- student. His field of study is fully based around those "abstract algebra and astrophysical theorems" I mentioned earlier, so non common core schools work with a wide variety of fields, not just the aforementioned carpentry and farming. That's the argument against common core from a high schooler's perspective. I can definitely answer any other questions you may have about education or any of Trump's other policies if you'd like to hear them from a young perspective.

                [–]AllyYoursNon-Trump Supporter 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                https://youtu.be/LPjzfGChGlE

                This is a very good video about the realities of worldwide poverty and the effects immigration has on it. Please watch until the end for the most poignant points about how immigration from poor countries hurts the country they are leaving and its remaining citizens.

                It's a very tricky issue that open, honest dialogue can only help.

                [–]gomyakuNon-Trump Supporter 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                As a school employee, the only benefit I can see from common core is simplifying the registration process for out of district and out of state students. It's insanely frustrating to find correlating courses sometimes and that's one area that CC would help. However, academically speaking, it's a blunder and fails more students than it helps.

                [–]Block_HelenNimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Sight tangent here. I've got three kids and I have to say I'm not seeing an improvement in Common Core math. First, you absolutely have to memorize. You have to be able to know multiplication tables (for example) inside and out to make sense of the higher math that comes next. You have to learn to spell and construct sentences correctly (verb tense memorization) in order to write properly. You have to know the periodic table in order to learn chemistry.

                Nobody teaching a child a musical instrument would ever suggest that they don't need to learn the basics like notes and chords. Or that learning to play baseball wouldn't involve drilling on batting, catching, throwing and running skills. That's what practice is all about - do it over and over again until you don't have to think about it. Then you bring it up to the next level.

                It's weird that "practice makes perfect" is universally accepted in learning most life skills, but suddenly we want to remove the concept from education.

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                  [–]slovenc135Nimble Navigator 6ポイント7ポイント  (19子コメント)

                  You forgot a really important one:

                  • Self-funded! The first presidential candidate in god knows how many decades to self-fund his campaign that has a realistic chance of winning.

                  [–]lurkwellmyfriendsNimble Navigator 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  Correct - this is a very important distinction.

                  [–]schoolsbellyNon-Trump Supporter 4ポイント5ポイント  (17子コメント)

                  That's not entirely true, he's raised money from small donors and maxed out donors. He also attended a fund raiser from the owner of a private equity firm Weinberg Capital.

                  [–]KaarousNimble Navigator 6ポイント7ポイント  (15子コメント)

                  He self funded the primaries. That's the important thing here. You know why? Because he made it all the way through the primary election, and won it, without taking a dime from the GOP, the establishment, or the special interests.

                  And now that he's the candidate, they have a choice to either support him, or not. If they don't, then they're showing the entire electorate that they don't actually have the principles they claim to have, because they'd rather let Hillary Clinton take a shit on the Constitution than support what they think isn't the right kind of Republican.

                  He isn't taking their money at this point. He's practically robbing them at gunpoint.

                  [–]schoolsbellyNon-Trump Supporter 2ポイント3ポイント  (14子コメント)

                  because they'd rather let Hillary Clinton take a shit on the Constitution

                  Can you offer an specifics on her policies that would "take a shit" on the Constitution?

                  [–]KaarousNimble Navigator 6ポイント7ポイント  (13子コメント)

                  If she is allowed to appoint a Supreme Court justice, she can functionally, if not literally, repeal the 2nd Amendment. Various civil rights are already presently under attack by political correctness (the freaking flag among them), and with a SCOTUS that is predominantly left, nothing prevents them from destroying the fabric of the nation with PC nonsense.

                  [–]bbedwardNimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  He's raised significantly more from grassroots and significantly less from big donors than Hillary Clinton so far this general election. The way he's fundraised so far is a stark contrast to any major party candidate for the last several general elections.

                  [–]SashimiJonesNon-Trump Supporter 0ポイント1ポイント  (19子コメント)

                  Will admit a mistake instead of doubling or tripling down on narratives and lies

                  Can you give an example of Trump ever saying that he was wrong about something?

                  [–]TbrendanMNon-Trump Supporter 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  About a month ago he admitted to being wrong about seeing a plane full of money going to Iran. He didn't try try saying he was "sleep deprived" http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/trump-admits-wrong-iran-money-video-226706

                  EDIT: spelling

                  [–]lurkwellmyfriendsNimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (16子コメント)

                  Hi - I'm unable to provide a link at the moment, but one easy example is his admitting that he was mistaken about "seeing the cash payment to Iran".

                  It's been my experience that he and his team are quick to acknowledge and correct any factual errors, with 'factual' being the keyword.

                  [–]SashimiJonesNon-Trump Supporter 1ポイント2ポイント  (15子コメント)

                  You're right that he did admit that he made the video up and it never existed.

                  On the other hand, though, you have a litany of statements like "Obama founded ISIS" and followups like "No, I mean Obama literally founded ISIS" that are factually false.

                  Trump also likes to claim that crime is at "historically high levels," which is also factually false. I don't recall him ever admitting being mistaken that "global warming is a Chinese conspiracy" either.

                  [–]lurkwellmyfriendsNimble Navigator 2ポイント3ポイント  (6子コメント)

                  Ok, fair enough - but Obama and Clinton's actions and policies did indeed foster the creation and growth of ISIS (AQI) - which is what Trump was pushing with his statements.

                  The other points you mention are always going to bring about arguments of semantics and context, and most likely ideological posturing.

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                        [–]Moojuice4Nimble Navigator 85ポイント86ポイント  (81子コメント)

                        Hi again! Since you were so cool on the other sub, I figured I'm come talk about my views a little.

                        Just some background on me...I'm a socially liberal, atheist independent (although now registered republican). I've been supporting trump since back in the primaries, when people thought he had no shot, so it's been a wild ride.

                        The first thing that really resonated with me is his anti-pc stance. Almost all of his initial support was based around this. As someone who has previously supported liberal causes, I've become increasingly convinced we're going down a dark path. I look to Europe where you see people arrested for things they've posted on twitter and I shudder. PC-culture is the slow erosion of free speech, and it's coming here. I would not be surprised if in the next 10 years, "hate speech" laws go into effect in the US. This isn't to say I support hate. I dislike the KKK, racists, etc as much as the next person. BUT...they still have the right to say their nonsense. Trump, with all of his unfiltered bluster was our direct weapon against this.

                        Another big issue is his stance on Islam. As an atheist, I'm not a huge fan of any religion. Islam right now, is in a league of its own though. It is a combination of religious and political doctrine, and countries living under Islamic law are horribly oppressive to gays and women. It hasn't gone through the reform that Christianity has and that makes it dangerous. If there was a country that was in Christianity's phase of the Spanish inquisition, I'd say it warrants the same caution. This needs to be addressed and not glossed over. In college, one of my best friends was a Muslim immigrant. Great guy. Smart. Funny. And he thought all gays should die. This was in 1998, so it was a different time...all of us thought this was hilarious. We teased him about it. I don't think it's so funny anymore. So...I think we need to be careful with bringing in people from a culture SO different than our own. I know christian bigotry still exists in mass...but seriously, we had a 6 month news cycle about people not baking a cake for a gay couple. It's not the same.

                        A big criticism of trump from the left has been his lack of policy. This is getting better as time goes by, but it's been a fair critique in my opinion. What a lot of people don't understand is that a lot of what I want from Trump is to NOT do things. Don't sign the TPP. DON'T make bad trade deals. DON'T start new wars or engage in the nation building that's been happening in the middle-east for years. DON'T add new gun control laws (I'm a huge believer in the 2nd amendment).

                        Do I have concerns? Sure. I'm worried a conservative supreme court will overturn gay marriage. If this happens, I will be out in the street protesting with everyone else. BUT...I value our 2nd amendment right just as much. I'm just as worried Hillary's liberal supreme court will try to disarm the country. So...yeah, this has gotten long. Do you have any specific questions? :)

                        [–]SaorenNimble Navigator 47ポイント48ポイント  (5子コメント)

                        I dislike the KKK, racists, etc as much as the next person. BUT...they still have the right to say their nonsense.

                        i think one of things worth pointing out about this is that this is a needed policy. While i think we can all agree that something like the kkk is reprehensible, we can't just ban/censor them becasue that opens up the gates to authoritarianism. If you allow groups to be banned and people to be censored, you are going to have people gradually using these tactics on people they just don't like. maybe day one its a group no one likes such as the kkk but down the road its something like religious nuts calling for a ban on lgbt groups, or a political party trying to shut down news publications they dislike

                        [–]malibu31Nimble Navigator 19ポイント20ポイント  (3子コメント)

                        Agreed. I hate the KKK, but let the crazies speak and let society decide. Censorship doesn't help anyone

                        [–]0fficerNastyNimble Navigator 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

                        Censoring """hate speech""" leads to the question of "What is hate speech?" Do we really want the government deciding that?

                        [–]ChanceTheDogNimble Navigator 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        You have that in Britain nowadays, where a mean tweet gets the bobbies knockin down your door.

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                          [–]Starfishpr1meNimble Navigator 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Great point illustrated by the fact that the alt-right was added to a list of hate groups recently. The higher ups could get rid of anyone they don't like with that tactic.

                          [–]elbanofelizNon-Trump Supporter[S] 22ポイント23ポイント  (60子コメント)

                          Nice response, I can definitely empathize with all of the points you made. His stance on Islam is one that I have had a hard time grappling with. I do agree that there is a major problem with Isalm in a lot of places and it is something we have to address, not something we can stick our heads in the sand about.

                          Where my opinion differs from Mr. Trump is that I do not think that taking a combative approach to it is the most prudent solution. I believe that some of his rhetoric will cause Muslims to feels as though they are not welcome in our country, which will reinforce their preconceived notion that America is the enemy.

                          I believe that we should welcome them with open arms with the caveat that if they want to live in America they must operate under our American values. This means to me that they are free to hold whatever disgusting views they choose to hold, as long as they do not act on them. While some of the immigrants that come over will undoubtedly cling to their bigoted views until the day they die, I think that if their children grow up in a culture that tells them that their parents views are wrong and that America will accept you unconditionally regardless or race, religion, or background the children will grow to be what we want in America. I think that this would be a more effective path towards combating radical Islam than the strategy Mr. Trump has.

                          [–]Moojuice4Nimble Navigator 42ポイント43ポイント  (23子コメント)

                          I'm actually chuckling a little bit at this. This is a perfect example of two people sharing almost the exact same viewpoint, but disagreeing in the implementation.

                          Trump's approach isn't as combative as a lot of people would have you believe. He called for a temporary ban on Muslim immigration, which in real life will mean a ban from high-risk countries. What's temporary? In my mind, about 6 months. Obama himself paused immigration of iraqi refugees for 6 months in 2011. So there's plenty of precedent. In that 6 months, we would set up a better vetting process. At the time he called for his "ban", we weren't even reviewing the social media accounts of people coming in. That's just silly.

                          What he's calling for after that is just letting people in who are willing to assimilate. In other words, "welcome them with open arms with the caveat that if they want to live in America they must operate under our American values." Like, literally your position.

                          It's interesting, right?

                          [–]elbanofelizNon-Trump Supporter[S] 16ポイント17ポイント  (22子コメント)

                          The media has blown a lot of his Muslim sentiments way out of proportion, blowing things out of proportion are what they do best. However, he has said some things that are very unwelcoming to prospective Muslim immigrants. In particular his ideas about having a Muslim database, and his quote about sending Syrian refugees back if he became president would give me pause if I were a Muslim thinking of moving here.

                          I also think that what he means by assimilate is different from what I mean when I say that they must operate under American values. Maybe saying American values was not the right word choice, what I mean by that is that they must follow our laws and practices. They do not have to love America or anything like that, they just cannot be openly combative against it.

                          [–]Moojuice4Nimble Navigator 35ポイント36ポイント  (13子コメント)

                          Oh, you've brought up one of the biggest things that brought my wife over to voting for Trump. The Muslim database. It was a 100% made up story. This is from the actual transcript of the interview...

                          " Reporter: Should there be database that tracks the Muslims that are in this country?

                          Trump: There should be a lot of systems, beyond database. We should have a lot of systems and today you can do it. But right now we have to have a border, we have to have strength, we have to have a wall, and we cannot let what’s happening to this country happen any longer.

                          Reporter: But that's something your White House would like to implement?

                          Trump: Oh, I would certainly implement that. Absolutely.

                          Reporter: What do you think the effect of that would be, how would it work?

                          Trump: It would stop people from coming in illegally. "

                          Soooo...it's obvious to me that trump was talking about his wall. The worst you can say about the interview was that he didn't say definitively that there would be no database. But he clarified that right after. No database. This is the story that was run...

                          "Donald Trump would ‘certainly’ and ‘absolutely’ create a database of Muslims"

                          It makes me sound tinfoil hat, but you're being lied to. You can look up the actual transcript. He called on them to retract it and apologize, and everyone laughed at him and called him a crybaby. It's sad this is the state of things. :(

                          edit: I'm off to bed, but I'll check back tomorrow! It was nice hearing your views.

                          [–]elbanofelizNon-Trump Supporter[S] 14ポイント15ポイント  (12子コメント)

                          Just looked up the interview and you are right is is a lot more ambiguous than the media made it seem. However, I do still think that it seems that he is saying he is not against a database. Regardless, I am not as much worried about the specific policy decisions he might implement, but more the general rhetoric he has about Muslims. He seems to not be too thrilled with the idea of having more of them in our country in general. The comment about Syrian refugees is maybe a more apt example of what I am referencing than the database thing.

                          [–]RedPickleTickleNimble Navigator 39ポイント40ポイント  (5子コメント)

                          the general rhetoric he has about Muslims. He seems to not be too thrilled with the idea of having more of them in our country in general. The comment about Syrian refugees is maybe a more apt example of what I am referencing

                          Besides emotional arguments, why do you think him "not being too thrilled with" a massive influx of illegal immigrants and refugees coming from war-thorn countries is a bad thing?

                          Even countries such as Germany and France, which were the epitome of "every one is welcome and to say otherwise makes you a rayciss!", have changed their stance radically in a matter of months!

                          Even Merkel, famous for saying "we will do it!", has come out to say "Germany and Europe have made Mistakes" in regard to the policies and handling of the constant stream of illegal immigrants and refugees coming from the middle east and afrika.

                          Merkel admits Germany and Europe have made mistakes in handling the refugee crisis

                          Besides all that, the atmosphere in Europe has been radically changing in general.

                          The Germans muster the courage to say that islamic clothing such as niqabs have no place in a courtroom. Please notice that Germans must be the population with the biggest fear on earth of being called racists(I live here)

                          The Austrians are writing a compendium on how illegal immigrants and refugees are a risk for national security and the economic stability of the country.

                          I could go on and on and on about how the party of Geert WIlders in the Netherlands has been growing immensly. His whole platform? "Muslims must integrate as well as live and cherish European values or leave."

                          Also, Hungary has closed its border.

                          Also, the Slovakian President, also the EU President for the next 6 months, said "Islam has no place in our culture. People must assimilate."

                          But of course, and I hope you don't, you will spin this as every single one of us being racist and Trump making you uncomfortable and Hillary being a godsend. For completeness sake, islam is not a race, it is a totalitarian system which includes but is not limited to economic, political and social practices as well as the religion known in the west as islam.

                          So, again, besides emotional arguments, why do you think him "not being too thrilled with" a massive influx of illegal immigrants and refugees coming from war-thorn countries is a bad thing?

                          [–]ThanksInnAdvanceNimble Navigator 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          BINGO! It comes down to feelings that the MSM feeds these people vs the reality of what goes on. Yes we won't to help the refugees, but allowing anyone in our country saying they are refugees allows for extremist to enter as well. They have made it very clear we cannot vet these people properly. Look what is happening in Europe. Hillary wants to increase the refugees here by 550%. She wants people we cannot not vet to come to our country. Why? Because she has a globalist initiative and the more illegals and refugees the more power she has.

                          [–]niceanddtoastypleaseNon-Trump Supporter 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          I'm so shocked you didn't get a response to that /s

                          [–]ashara_ladybrightNimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          I think for a lot of people, Democrats specifically, Muslims are a "theory" to them. They don't know any Muslims or they know Muslims who are cultural Muslims - they celebrate Eid, but eat pork, etc. They don't know what happens when they gain a foothold in a society and start pushing for sharia law, failing to integrate entirely. They assume all immigrants are the same - they have come here to become American. But, sadly, that is untrue.

                          I truly believe it is a theory to them.

                          [–]Moojuice4Nimble Navigator 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          I can understand where you're coming from and I respect that point of view. Keep in mind, the database was just one example. You admitted that it's a lot more ambiguous than the media made it seem. The media does this for pretty much anything he says. You see the term "red pilled" a lot here, which is a reference to the Matrix. Once you know what's going on, you can't go back.

                          I hope all of this discussion was helpful to you. We aren't bad people. Not crazy or weird white supremacists. Just normal people that want to do something about concerns we have.

                          I want you to keep one last thing in mind. You said you support Hillary. I want you to think about how you'd feel if people treated that like Trump support. I can't put a Trump sticker on my car, it will be vandalized. I can't show any support at work, I may lose my job. Friends will never talk to you again because of it. Does that seem right to you? It freaks me out.

                          [–]weakandsensitiveNimble Navigator 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          I do still think that it seems that he is saying he is not against a database

                          We have so many databases on so many people right now.

                          Signing up for global entry - I'm sure my details got added to a database. Getting my wife on a CR-1 visa, we waited a long time, went through an interview process, and I'm sure we're in a database. If you're paying taxes, I can guarantee you're in a database.

                          It's a classic hitleresque fear - mongering.

                          The question is - do you think there is an issue with Islamic countries? If the answer is yes, the question becomes do you think we should do something about that?

                          [–]CopperMTNkidNimble Navigator 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Why do you seem to be so caring about how non Americans feel? Do their feelings need to affect American politics? I'm really not attacking you, I'm just trying to get you to see where we come from. Like honestly, we are a nation, and we need to take care of national problems before we resume world police.

                          The fact is that this is an American problem and if non Americans don't like our policies, they can simply not move here.

                          [–]raznogNimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          I'd be for a database that tracks non citizens in the country, including country of origin, religion, and foreign contacts. Which seems to be what trump has been about all along. He hasn't said anything about throwing citizens out, or tracking citizens. He talks about doing stuff like this with non citizens and the media makes it out to claim he wants to discriminate against citizens of the US.

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                            [–]beretta92pedeNimble Navigator 17ポイント18ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            What you are discussing is essentially the difference between "assimilation" and "integration" (or simple peaceful coexistence).

                            You have a good, kind, warm and welcoming heart. The problem with that is what happens when it is faced by a single-mindedly intolerant and violent adversary.

                            Take a look at this:

                            https://i.imgur.com/8LSSSgr.png

                            Let's look at the discussion a slightly different way, because Islam is in fact both a religious and political set of beliefs.

                            Lets's say for the sake of argument only that you are a Christian. You and your family emigrate to a Muslim nation. You are willing to abide by Sharia law, since it is the law of the land. Your wife covers her head and doesn't drive, because that is the custom of the land. You may not agree with it or like it, but you comply because you are in a Muslim nation, and they have the right to their faith, beliefs and practices the same as any Western nation.

                            You send your kids to school. They are taught by imams well-versed in Sharia and in theology, not just in math and science. Over time, your children become acclimated and accepting, as you outline in your scenario. They make Muslim friends. So far, so good, right?

                            Then one of your kids says Jesus is only a prophet, and not a Savior sent to redeem humans who believe in His name. They also say they saw a friend's older brother beating up his sister because she was wearing Western clothing, and your child says the girl deserved it.

                            As a Christian parent, would you be okay with this? Really okay? Or would you want your children to retain Christian and Western values and beliefs?

                            If you answer yes to the second part of that, then you're not assimilating; you are barely coexisting and your kids will NOT accept the views of the dominant society around them.

                            When a religion is also a governing principle, that's a recipe for disaster and conflict on both sides if they differ greatly and attempt to live together.

                            [–]obeseredditadminNimble Navigator 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

                            They do not have to love America or anything like that, they just cannot be openly combative against it.

                            Why should America take in a person who does not love the country, when there are a 100 more people who love the country, waiting to come in legally?

                            Research has shown that second-generation Muslims are the real problem. The children that grow up from Muslim immigrants are the problem.

                            Allowing people in the country, who do not love the country, will just inflame this issue.

                            [–]HollyWood45Non-Trump Supporter 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            Im late to this but I wanted to reply. It's easy to sat "let them all in with the caveat that they assimilate to our ways." In reality, a lot of the Islamic population that is here is already fighting American customs and saying it offends them (see: too much P.C.) No pledge of allegiance, excused from standing for National Anthem, etc.

                            If we already aren't having them follow our customs and rules, what makes you think it will change under a democratic presidency in which, the leading democratic candidate has accepted an excess of $50,000,000 from Islamic countries?

                            And since when did state and church get so intertwined that the government has to right to invoke laws based on religious beliefs?

                            [–]OhNoBearIsDrivingNon-Trump Supporter 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            However, he has said some things that are very unwelcoming to prospective Muslim immigrants. In particular his ideas about having a Muslim database, and his quote about sending Syrian refugees back if he became president would give me pause if I were a Muslim thinking of moving here.

                            i don't want to be rude, but really who gives a shit that they're hesitant about moving here? We are not some third world country lacking all sort of resources and hoping to attract foreign talents and investments,literally nobody's begging immigrants to come to their country (except cucked germany and sweden), if any potential immigrants have doubts about the future presidency of the country they're considering, they're welcome to drop the application and/or leave, nobody's gonna miss them. Immigration is not a right it's a privilege, granted by the good wills of the citizens of a nation, if the citizens of that nation decided to exclude a certain group of people, however bizarre/ridiculous the criteria might be, it's well within the sovereign rights of that nation. Even complete shut off of immigration is within the nation's right. If the immigrants disagree with the local culture/immigration policies, then DON'T FUCKING APPLY! This is coming from a naturalized citizen.

                            [–]AidsFrodoNimble Navigator 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            They do not have to love America or anything like that, they just cannot be openly combative against it.

                            That is where you are wrong, and you have to understand that.

                            Anybody who comes into this country should not be hostile to it. If they are, or they don't like it, they are welcome to get the hell out.

                            Anybody who comes here, HAS to come here in an act of love - not an act of use us only to leave when they have the opportunity and shit all over us.

                            It reminds me so much of the Florida mass shooters dad.

                            There is no benefit in that whatsoever. Such people are of no benefit to us, our country or our people. Accepting such people in because """they have a right""" is absurd. They don't have a right. They don't have any rights besides human rights. It is no human right to be a citizen of the United States. They can come here, but only if it will benefit our country and our people.

                            It will, if they love our country. If they despise it but want to come in here to use our system to enrich themselves only to do whatever at a later stage - how does that help our people in any way?

                            They don't have to come to the US - they can go to another country they actually might like. What's the point in coming here if they don't share our values and love our culture.

                            This notion that we should accept people who don't like our country as if there is a shortage in people on this planet is absurd and it is wrong. Why come here if you don't like the country and the people. Stay in your own country or go someplace else. That is an objectively better solution for all parties involved.

                            [–]ashara_ladybrightNimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            They do not have to love America or anything like that

                            I don't understand this. Why would you leave your homeland voluntarily to go to a country you don't have affection for? This is the crux of the issue and I think you may have unwittingly unearthed it. You assume many Muslims do not like America - and I don't think this is untrue. If that is the case, they have their pick of the Islamic world to relocate to and do not have to come to America. How do you have a country if the people in that country have no common identity that unifies them? We can be any colour in the world, but we are American - isn't that the goal?

                            Also, if your parents have no love for America, why would their children deny the feelings and teachings of the people who brought them into this world? That is more powerful than any other force one can think of - family.

                            I agree with Trump's ban primarily because I know we are importing massive problems that have a ripple effect throughout society. For example, where I live now there is a daycare shortage for low income people. We have imported so many unskilled people from failed states who do not speak the language and have no reason to (they are housed in ethnic areas to make them more "comfortable") and as such the burden on the taxpayer is so large it cannot be met. They have children they can't care for - and if you think people on welfare don't use daycare, think again. There is much more going on than that, but it all adds up to a drain on public resources. They are not contributing to society and how could they? Many women are not allowed to work. I could go on and on, but I think you get my point.

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                              [–]cplusequalsNimble Navigator 10ポイント11ポイント  (17子コメント)

                              This means to me that they are free to hold whatever disgusting views they choose to hold

                              Does that include literal Nazis as well? Don't you see why it would be in our best interest to turn away groups of people that would be detrimental to our society? They're taking someone else's spot who would otherwise benefit the country. Assuming we let them in, that means one other person will not get in. We have every reason to be choosy about who we let into our country. By the way, I think we should let in plenty of Muslims, but I think it would be better if we just sorted out the ones who practice Sharia first.

                              [–]elbanofelizNon-Trump Supporter[S] 7ポイント8ポイント  (16子コメント)

                              I was not as clear as I should have been above, I mean I do not care what disgusting views they hold as long as they are not openly calling for the death of the people who oppose their views (meaning posting on social media about killing gays and things like that). If they are simply being vocal about their hate for certain groups I think they should be free to do that in America, same as I would feel for your Nazi example.

                              In terms of your argument on immigration I do not think that our immigration policy should be based around what will make the lives of current Americans the best. Maybe this is romanticizing America but I think that we should be a country that you can come to with little to no hassle. I do not believe that someone should have to jump through extra hoops and take extra tests based on their cultural/religious heritage in order to move here.

                              [–]tholinzNon-Trump Supporter 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

                              Why shouldn't America make immigration decisions based on what's best for the American people?

                              From what it sounds like, you're a big-hearted person who wants to help the rest of the world. A noble goal, I agree. However, immigration policy is not the place to do it. I suggest this excellent summary of the situation:

                              https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE

                              It's only six minutes long, but very illustrative of why we cannot help the world through immigration policies.

                              [–]decipedetimes10Non-Trump Supporter 15ポイント16ポイント  (4子コメント)

                              I do not think that our immigration policy should be based around what will make the lives of current Americans the best.

                              To me this statement sounds synonymous with: "Everyone should deal with the consequences and risks of my decisions."

                              Would you apply the same idea on a smaller scale, like, for example, for your family?

                              Imagine a father or mother saying:

                              "I do not think that who we let into our home should be based around what will make the lives of this family the best."

                              Of course that's absurd. You don't let people into your home with disregard to the well being of your family. Why should it be any different for the US and its citizens?

                              [–]borkedyborkNon-Trump Supporter 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              I hope elbanofeliz replies to this, re applying the same idea to your own family home.

                              [–]ElMeanYoNon-Trump Supporter 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              Bingo.

                              Like the quote goes: 'We don't lock the doors because we are afraid of the people outside, we lock them because we love the people inside.'

                              [–]ashara_ladybrightNimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              Beautiful example.

                              コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                                [–]RandyContractorNimble Navigator 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                I'm just jumping in on the conversation, here. First of all I want to thank you for taking the time to find out what the Trump campaign is all about. For me personally it has less to do with Trump himself and more to do with putting a stop to the efforts made by the Obama administration and the Clintons that bring us closer to globalism. It just so happens that I like Trump too.

                                Anyway, I wanted to try and tackle this view of immigration that you have. 1.

                                Maybe this is romanticizing America but I think that we should be a country that you can come to with little to no hassle.

                                I don't think that you are fully aware of the threat that radical Islam brings to ANY other culture that is not their own. I know I didn't until recently. When I hear things like "They hate us and want us dead just because they don't like us" it sounds too absurd to be true. I hear stories about them throwing gay people off of roof tops, raping adolescent girls because it is within their rights and several other outlandish stories. My head always automatically makes excuses that there has to be more to the story so that it makes just a little bit of sense such as maybe the gay guy hit on the wrong homophobic that day or something. Something that tells me these people don't go out actively hunting for gays just to throw them from roof tops. But that's exactly what they do.

                                This short 3 minute video was an eye opener for me. Supposedly this hidden camera video was recently filmed in the UK by one of the students from a school in a refugee camp. I cannot confirm that is truly the case but after watching the footage I can buy into that it is real. On that note, I don't care if that video came from the UK or the motherland itself, I do NOT want radical Islamic followers coming to this country with little to no hassle.

                                Hillary Clinton's plan to move in over 600,000 Syrian refugees onto our soil within a short period will bring devastating blow back. There will be no way to screen out the bad ones from the good ones.

                                My first time posting. I hope this was rational and informative.

                                [–]CRRPGMykaelNon-Trump Supporter 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                This is where all Trump supporters would disagree with you. Teddy Roosevelt said there is no room here for hyphenated americans (ie syrian-american), only americans. Coming to America is not a right but a privilege. Being a citizen grants you rights, not being one, grants you very little, or none. If you are coming to the best nation in the world (or the remnants of it, which Trump will fix), you better subscribe to all of its ideals and national beliefs, and you better know its History as well, instead of being someone who is coming here to take advantage of its systems and essentially be a regime destabilizer, which unfortunately most minorities in the US have turned out to be, from BLM to muslims.

                                My two biggest reasons for loving Trump are economics and immigration (you can add a third too, the military), forming the trifecta:

                                Economic superpower Cultural superpower Military superpower

                                Trump is absolutely right on all of the things he says about the economy, I'm sure you've heard of the things he says about China and all of that, since it would take me way too long to explain America's economic history.

                                Trump will make the streets safe again, where people are united and harmonious, like back in the 1950's where you could park a bike under your apartment at night and it would still be there on the next morning, when you could forget to lock your door and it wouldn't even matter, where you don't have to take your shoes off at the airport, where neighbors are kind and life is good. Where America is free to create culture that will influence the rest of the world (hopefully this time rid of destabilizers, like the communists from the 50's and the liberals in Hollywood of today)

                                Now, why in the hell would I want to live next to a muslim who thinks my wife should cover herself, beats his own wife, only has other muslim Sharia supporting friends, and goes around trying to promote a Sharia controlled neighborhood? This can apply to anyone who tries to subverse the American Dream and the Constitution and like I have refered, american ideals, not just muslims.

                                I could suggest a few economics books that would be a good read, but it would take you too long, so I'll simply suggest you dedicate a few hours of your time to watching former KGB agent Yuri Bezmenov's interviews of subversion tactics, and also the 1980 Jimmy Carter vs Ronald Reagan debate (the 1984 debates too if you want) for an UNCANNY debate that could have taken place TODAY.

                                コメントをもっと表示する (5 返事)

                                  [–]RobbertOppenheimerNimble Navigator 12ポイント13ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                  I believe that some of his rhetoric will cause Muslims to feels as though they are not welcome in our country, which will reinforce their preconceived notion that America is the enemy.

                                  mate they already do, you have no idea how these Muslims truly are the resources and statistics are out there, they are notorious for not integrating and not because the nations they go to are racist bigots its because they dont want to.

                                  Edit "I think that if their children grow up in a culture that tells them that their parents views are wrong and that America will accept you unconditionally regardless or race, religion, or background the children will grow to be what we want in America."

                                  you realize a large part of ISIS was 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants children yeah? you think Europeans made them hate them?

                                  [–]corJoeNimble Navigator 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                  "I think that if their children grow up in a culture that tells them that their parents views are wrong and that America will accept you unconditionally regardless or race, religion, or background the children will grow to be what we want in America."

                                  Wow, this whole line of thinking is creepy. Who is the "we" that decides what America wants and will be telling them that their parents are wrong. Which set of morals decides this. Also unless the immigrants are assimilated they may keep their children segregated from the "good" culture.

                                  [–]TheGrandPiginNon-Trump Supporter 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                  No matter how you spin it an apple doesn't fall far from the tree. There may be exceptions but grand majority is just like the parents.

                                  [–]_ErissNon-Trump Supporter 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                  While some of the immigrants that come over will undoubtedly cling to their bigoted views until the day they die, I think that if their children grow up in a culture that tells them that their parents views are wrong and that America will accept you unconditionally regardless or race, religion, or background the children will grow to be what we want in America.

                                  This sounds good in theory but we have tried this in the EU where we have a lot of second/third generation muslim immigrants. The large majority don't assimilate, form tight communities in poor neighborhoods and don't raise their kids at all. The result is large groups of muslim youths who have zero respect for the law or the country that they live in and usually become more religious than their parents. Western society has a lot more freedom and relies on mutual respect of each others freedom which in turn requires a basic amount of upbringing which is less necessary in a country with stricter law enforcement. The second/third generation of kids (especially males) are often never corrected by an authority figure and completely derail. We have neighborhoods where busses stopped driving through because muslim youths threw bricks through the windows on a regular basis.

                                  Obviously I'm generalizing and there are plenty of succes stories but that doesn't change the fact that we have a huge problem with crime, assimilation and a general lack of respect for the country and individual freedom from 2nd/3rd generation immigrant youths. Maybe the dynamic will be different due to the US already having a larger number of poorer Hispanic and Black communities which might alter the dynamic but I don't think it's going to be pretty.

                                  The first generation is often not that big of a problem because the majority is thankful for the higher quality of living the new country provides them. It's the later generations that are going to go off the rails.

                                  [–]beretta92pedeNimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                  This.

                                  Most Muslims don't want to assimilate. The best of them want to work hard, live well, run successful businesses, and worship in peace. But they do not wish to relinquish their idea of proper civil society to ours, assimilate it and adopt it, because civil and sacred society to them is the same thing.

                                  A Hindu, Jew, Buddhist or Christian can all have their own beliefs and live in Western society because their faiths are not telling them what civil laws they must obey. They may thus accept the rule of Western law with no threat to the sanctity of their faith; live in civil society and worship as they please, with little or no internal conflict.

                                  For Muslims, their religion IS the law. If you were a Muslim parent, and your daughter brought a friend home from school that you felt was inappropriately dressed, you would likely find that repulsive. Perhaps you think she should be flogged. But in the US the worst that would likely happen is that the child would be sent home to change clothes.

                                  As a Muslim you might see your daughter's friend's appearance as an affront to God, quite literally. Yet here nothing much happens. You might be sickened by it, and you're not going to deny your faith just to "go along", at least not on the inside. You will never assimilate to the West, and your daughter will figure out right quick never to bring that particular friend home after school again. This leads to isolation and alienation, which doesn't help anyone, Muslim or Westerner, parent or child.

                                  [–]RedPillDessertNimble Navigator 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                  I believe that some of his rhetoric will cause Muslims to feels as though they are not welcome in our country, which will reinforce their preconceived notion that America is the enemy.

                                  Please bear in mind that 80% of Afghans or 90% of Egyptians favour killing apostates. Many other ME countries are almost as bad. We're talking about a fundamentally worse culture, and they tend to hate us.

                                  [–]thyeyretoocuteNimble Navigator 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                  13% of Syrian refugees have "positive views" of ISIS, according to a study by the Arab Center for Research and Policy. That won't feel like a small number if we let them in in such numbers that are being discussed by Clinton and Kaine. FBI officials, such as James Comey, have expressed a lack of confidence in the vetting system.

                                  [–]tholinzNon-Trump Supporter 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                  I would suggest that you check out a website called Gates of Vienna (gatesofvienna.net). Most Americans don't have a fully informed perspective on Islam, based on the way Islam is mollycoddled and protected by the American press. It'd be a good place to do further research on the subject, especially in regards to what Islam is doing to the West.

                                  [–]Nicodemus_KathoplizoNon-Trump Supporter 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                  A few points about Islam:

                                  1) Why would an inclusive society welcome unvetted a group people who the majority are intolerant and not inclusive? (see data below)

                                  2) Did you know that the cost of bringing a refugee here is on the order of 10x the cost of helping people in the region through safe zones? http://www.nationalreview.com/american-safe-act--refugee-resettlement-could-continue-unabated

                                  3) Why have countries like Saudi who are wealthy, local and share a religous and cultural heritage not taken a single refugee?

                                  I am all in favour of helping. We helped Germans and Japanese AFTER their unconditional surrender. The majority (see below) of Muslims have views that are at the least at odds with Western values, and at worst that make them enemies. It is simply common sense that you do not take refugees from nations/groups that you are in active conflict with.

                                  Here are some facts for you:

                                  Pew Research (2013): Only 57% of Muslims worldwide disapprove of al-Qaeda. Only 51% disapprove of the Taliban. 13% support both groups and 1 in 4 refuse to say. http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/09/10/muslim-publics-share-concerns-about-extremist-groups/

                                  Wenzel Strategies (2012): 58% of Muslim-Americans believe criticism of Islam or Muhammad is not protected free speech under the First Amendment. 45% believe mockers of Islam should face criminal charges (38% said they should not). 12% of Muslim-Americans believe blaspheming Islam should be punishable by death. 43% of Muslim-Americans believe people of other faiths have no right to evangelize Muslims. 32% of Muslims in America believe that Sharia should be the supreme law of the land. http://www.andrewbostom.org/blog/2012/10/31/sixty-percent-of-us-muslims-reject-freedom-of-expression

                                  ICM Poll: 40% of British Muslims want Sharia in the UK 20% of British Muslims sympathize with 7/7 bombershttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html

                                  Pew Research (2010): 82% of Egyptian Muslims favor stoning adulterers 70% of Jordanian Muslims favor stoning adulterers 42% of Indonesian Muslims favor stoning adulterers 82% of Pakistanis favor stoning adulterers 56% of Nigerian Muslims favor stoning adulterers http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/

                                  WZB Berlin Social Science Center: 65%% of Muslims in Europe say Sharia is more important than the law of the country they live in. http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4092/europe-islamic-fundamentalism

                                  Pew Global (2006) 68% of Palestinian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified. 43% of Nigerian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified. 38% of Lebanese Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified. 15% of Egyptian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified. http://cnsnews.com/node/53865

                                  World Public Opinion (2009) 61% of Egyptians approve of attacks on Americans 32% of Indonesians approve of attacks on Americans 41% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on Americans 38% of Moroccans approve of attacks on Americans 62% of Jordanians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (21% oppose) 42% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (45% oppose)http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf

                                  NOP Research: 62% percent of British Muslims say freedom of speech shouldn't be protected 1 in 4 British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified 78% of British Muslims support punishing the publishers of Muhammad cartoonshttp://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06

                                  People Press Surveys 31% of Turks support suicide attacks against Westerners in Iraq. http://www.people-press.org/2004/03/16/a-year-after-iraq-war/

                                  Belgian HLN 16% of young Muslims in Belgium state terrorism is "acceptable".http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/1275/Islam/article/detail/1619036/2013/04/22/Zestien-procent-moslimjongens-vindt-terrorisme-aanvaardbaar.dhtml

                                  ICM Poll: 25% of British Muslims disagree that a Muslim has an obligation to report terrorists to police.http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews/2004/Guardian%20Muslims%20Poll%20Nov%2004/Guardian%20Muslims%20Nov04.asp

                                  Pew Research (2007): 26% of younger Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are justified. 35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall). 42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall). 22% of young Muslims in Germany believe suicide bombings are justified.(13% overall). 29% of young Muslims in Spain believe suicide bombings are justified.(25% overall).www.pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60

                                  [–]lolaTJNon-Trump Supporter 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                  The most non PC video about Islam, Muslim opinions and demographics https://youtu.be/pSPvnFDDQHk Would like to know your thoughts after watching it. The video is only 12 minutes. It's worth watching!

                                  [–]CommyendeNon-Trump Supporter 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                  Where my opinion differs from Mr. Trump is that I do not think that taking a combative approach to it is the most prudent solution. I believe that some of his rhetoric will cause Muslims to feels as though they are not welcome in our country, which will reinforce their preconceived notion that America is the enemy.

                                  Trump's approach is very anti-combative. He called for a temporary ban on people coming in from areas where terrorism is a problem. That is like posting a "keep out" sign on your front porch. It is a very non-violent approach to protecting us. Hillary, on the other hand, was instrumental in starting of several conflicts throughout the middle east. This includes the Iraq war, which she was all in favor of up until it become politically expedient to be against it. She has also promised to continue waging new and exciting wars throughout the middle east.

                                  Trump's rhetoric may hurt the feelings of Muslims, but Hillary's policies will almost certainly lead to many Muslim deaths. Do you believe hurt feelings or dead bodies are more likely to encourage hatred of America?

                                  [–]GratstyaNon-Trump Supporter 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                  Where my opinion differs from Mr. Trump is that I do not think that taking a combative approach to it is the most prudent solution. I believe that some of his rhetoric will cause Muslims to feels as though they are not welcome in our country, which will reinforce their preconceived notion that America is the enemy.

                                  Do you feel that way about Israel? You must be Jewish in order to become a citizen of Israel. I cannot become a citizen of Israel unless I convert and go through some kind of initiation process. But that doesn't bother me. I think every country has a right to decide who they want to welcome into their borders and who of those people should be granted citizenship. Just like I'm not gonna attack my neighbor if I'm not invited to his family reunion.

                                  I'm not going to get offended if I find out another country has requirements I need to meet in order to immigrate. Would you be?
                                  If so, we can talk about why. But if you don't, and I don't, why should we assume Muslims will take it personally and hate us more than they already do.

                                  [–]blackjackjesterNimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                  I'm with you on welcoming all with open arms, but what has gotten to me lately is the idea that all views are equally valid from the left. I hear tons of blond support for Muslims and Islam and their right to be in the US, but not one peep about denouncing them loudly and publically for bigoted views, and to depart from the views of their parents.

                                  The elderly aren't going to change their views. It takes a generation to do so, but we need to make sure that the new generation of Muslims have American values, and don't just live in Sharia bubbles set up by themselves.

                                  I want people in 40 years to say "Oh, there goes grandpa Hassan again, spouting about killing gays".

                                  [–]KaarousNimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                  I believe that some of his rhetoric will cause Muslims to feels as though they are not welcome in our country, which will reinforce their preconceived notion that America is the enemy.

                                  You do know you're admitting that they're bad with this statement, right?

                                  Apparently, if we don't treat them with kid gloves, they explode? That's not something I want in my country. Americans deserve to be safe.

                                  This means to me that they are free to hold whatever disgusting views they choose to hold, as long as they do not act on them.

                                  How many innocent American lives are worth this conviction? How many more Bataclans and Orlandos do we need before you admit that their beliefs command action?

                                  Is treating people with evil beliefs nicely, worth the rape and molestation of the thousands of women across Europe?

                                  Simply put. Is being PC about the evil that is Islam worth the suffering and death of civilized people?

                                  I say no. I say that I don't want my children raped or murdered because you feel like evil people with evil beliefs need a few generations of an adjustment period. If they can't do as the Romans do, I want them the fuck out of Rome.

                                  Decent, civilized people don't deserve to suffer for three generations at the hands of these animals.

                                  [–]ashara_ladybrightNimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                  Simply put. Is being PC about the evil that is Islam worth the suffering and death of civilized people?

                                  The question I ask most leftists is how many more dead bodies justify allowing potentially dangerous Muslims in our countries? Is 1000 too many? 10,000? What is the number?

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                                    [–]ClarkeFishingNon-Trump Supporter 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                    The problem with censoring hate speech is that what is defined as hate speech? Okay, shut down the KKK and white/black supremacy talks and whatever, those are true hate speeches... So 10 years later, hate speech is now calling someone fat? Would hate speech be saying "I don't agree with the president"?

                                    Where's the line and who is defining the line?

                                    Can you imagine the president signing a bill you don't like, you make a tweet "Wow I don't agree with this!" and then the local police are knocking at your door for hate speech?

                                    Straight out of a dystopian novel...

                                    [–]TotallyNotanOfficerNimble Navigator 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                    It hasn't gone through the reform that Christianity has

                                    Actually, they did. Ibn Taymiyyah lead a reform to bring Islam back to "The book and the man" in the 1300's. Martin Luther lead the Christian reformation in the 1500's, also going back to "The book and the man."

                                    Problem is, what Islam in itself supports, and who Muhammad was is the massive problem to Islam being peaceful. One cannot say that Islam is peaceful while knowing what the Quran says. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/violence.aspx

                                    The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and to kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter - and unlike nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence, the verses of violence in the Quran are mostly open-ended, meaning that they are not restrained by historical context contained in the surrounding text.

                                    [–]McMurphyCrazyNimble Navigator 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                    Always glad to see fellow atheists having the same concerns I do about Islam. I have a renewed love and respect for the religion I was born and raised in in Christianity over the course of the last few years with all of the terrorism that is coming from them. They do not fit with Western Civilization and need to be kept out unless they conform to our ideals and have a MAJOR enlightenment and change of the whole religion.

                                    Edit-How the hell did I get a non-trump supporter flair? I've donated to Trump and been following him since he first announced running.

                                    [–]Moojuice4Nimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                    You can change your flair yourself over on the sidebar. Maybe that's the default?

                                    [–]schoolsbellyNon-Trump Supporter 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                    I value our 2nd amendment right just as much. I'm just as worried Hillary's liberal supreme court will try to disarm the country

                                    The supreme court can't amend the Constitution.

                                    [–]Moojuice4Nimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                    I know that, but they can "interpret" the meaning differently.

                                    [–]mystirNimble Navigator 42ポイント43ポイント  (6子コメント)

                                    For decades our country has been falling victim to a two-party system that really is just one party in two forms. Both the GOP and Democrats have just sold us out to the people who pay for their campaigns. I'm a libertarian, I voted Gary Johnson in the last cycle, and above all what I see in Donald Trump is a man who is not beholden by special interests. He's not being paid for by Time Warner and George Soros like Clinton, or the Koch Brothers. And he isn't going to tow the party line, because he isn't a Republican. Why do you think the establishment on both sides of the aisle hates him? He threatens the gravy train they've ridden on for so long.

                                    He believes in a nationalist individualism. There's a special sort of freedom, or liberty, in being removed from the toxic, racist, and patronizing identity politics of the modern left. When we're free to just be Americans, we can finally begin to help those of us who are being left behind, because we're no longer focused on the trees and instead are looking at the forest.

                                    And finally, what I think people really miss about Trump is that he respects people who are willing to offer respect. He attacked Dr. Carson and Marco Rubio, and even Reince Priebus. But when they offered their hands in solidarity, he threw his loyalty full-force to them. Even after Nieto insulted him, he was still willing to talk to him. Do I want this man talking to Putin? Hell yes. Putin respects him. How can our country stand up to people who look down on our diplomats? Trump's enemies, after he wins, become some of his fastest friends. He once even defended a Miss USA winner who fell into drugs, allowing her to keep her title as long as she went to rehab and stayed clean, and even after people attacked his character for staying loyal and giving others second chances.

                                    This is a man who fought to desegregate Palm Springs. He then fought to keep a giant American flag on the property. He sent his personal jet out to fly Gulf War soldiers home when the DoD was trying to figure out how to do it. He paid for a kid's education when the kid's mother was diagnosed with a terminal illness. He housed Jennifer Hudson in his personal penthouse after her family was killed, with his own security. He paid for a sick kid's treatment when the kid's family couldn't. I truly believe he sees the best in people, he loves this country and the American people, and he will do whatever it takes to give back to a country that gave his family so much.

                                    [–]AnAmericanComposerNimble Navigator 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                    (Nationalism intensifies)

                                    Never fails to bring a tear to one's eye. He is demonized so much by the media it's remarkable to see the raw truth.

                                    [–]DGLGMUTNimble Navigator 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                    He's a true human. I have never before voted for a human in a federal election. That's why he appeals to me (amongst many other specific, policy related reasons). He does what's right without the expectation of praise. This is evidenced by countless stories of things he has done, of which only a few are mentioned in the post above. He makes mistakes, admits them, and works to improve. No one like him has run for the office in my lifetime.

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                                      [–]ProductofUnrealityNimble Navigator 10ポイント11ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                      Thanks for coming in here and giving this a shot. Glad you saw through the BS on the rest of this site.

                                      I was turned off of politics for years until Trump came along. Neither democrats nor republicans represented me anymore and so it felt futile to try and participate. Trump bucked that. He's absolutely hammering on the economy, illegal immigration/strong borders, 2A, and foreign policy in all the right ways.

                                      Some dismiss it as just rhetoric, but his America First mantra resonates. We get killed in trade deals, we give money away, we appease foreign leaders, we protect the world, and we don't even get thanks for it. In fact we get less than thanks, we get hated on and ridiculed. The money we spend on our military and the fact that we are a part of NATO subsidizes all the socialist policies of Europe. They don't dedicate their fair share of GDP to their defense and so they get to spend money on cushy things like free healthcare and free education, and then they criticize us for sticking out nose in foreign conflicts. If we didn't they would have to. It's time we stop being taken for granted and we get our fair shake. Too long have we been concerned more with how other countries view us than how we are actually doing. So what if other countries get a bit upset with a trade deal that actually benefits us?

                                      Americans need to be put first. The whole point of a democracy is so that we can vote for our best interests. Instead we've been voting for just mascots. Who do we want reading the TelePrompTer during state of the Union addresses. Trump looks like real change. Not Obama continuing many of Bush's policies change. He seems as if he actually cares about Americans and since I'm one he seems like he actually cares about me.

                                      The no bullshit no PC attitude is fantastic. It's easier to be honest without a filter and we need a president who can be honest.

                                      Trump is a breath of fresh air and a kick in the pants at the same time. He wants us to do better than we have been, and sometimes the only way to make that happen is to let us know how poorly we've been doing. His RNC speech was called 'dark and gloomy' but it was real, not some airbrushed picture of the current state of things. Personally I found it uplifting, not dark and gloomy, because he told us how we can fix it. And the first step to fixing a problem is admitting you have one.

                                      [–]_blankstateNimble Navigator 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                      Without going into tremendous detail...

                                      The main facet of Trump's character which appeals to me is legitimacy. This is something that's virtually impossible to objectively prove, so bear with me. Donald Trump has been very consistent on a few key issues, such as the gradual erosion of our free speech, trade deals which rob the middle class, and so on. He has flirted with the idea of running for President since the 1980's, if I recall. All the signs point to Trump legitimately wanting to help people. Clinton, in comparison, is the face of the political establishment. A cold, unthinking robot. She says what she needs to say to get elected, and then does nothing more than skim money off the top. It's a stark contrast.

                                      As for policies, there are a few key policies which appeal to me heavily. Free trade is foremost among them. The economy of my region has been utterly wrecked by free trade. A great example of this is the city of Flint. In decades past, Flint was among the most prosperous cities in the world; now, Flint is a violent, impoverished dump with toxic water that can't afford to pick up garbage. Year after year of the political elite's leadership has resulted in this problem only growing. The elite does not care for the middle class, the lower class, anyone except themselves and the corporate interests which fund them. Clinton is the face of that elite. Clinton has openly, and aggressively, advocated for free trade. 4-8 more years of disastrous trade deals, higher taxes and a crackdown on coal will be 4-8 more years of slow, painful decline for me. Trump's trade policy will bolster our manufacturing based economy, and help restore the middle class.

                                      This brings us into another topic of importance to me - coal. Coal is terrible for the environment, I will readily admit this. However, I am dependent on coal. Coal is the only source of power remotely affordable to me, and to others in my area. The power grid is heavily strained as is. If Clinton wages war on coal, a bad situation gets worse. Frequent power outages, dangerously high prices and decaying infrastructure will become even more painful under 4-8 more years of elitist rule. Trump's pro-coal stance means that, at the very least, things won't get much worse.

                                      A third policy which appeals to me is border security. This is less of an issue for me than for most Trump supporters, but it's important. It's a matter of principle. We can not allow people to violate the integrity of our borders. We can not grant these people citizenship as a reward for violating our laws and spitting in the face of those hardworking legal immigrants who waited in line for years.

                                      These major policies are what appeal to me. I'm largely indifferent towards most of his really controversial stances, such as the temporary Muslim immigration ban. I think these are blown out of proportion by the media, and in reality, will have little impact on our lives.

                                      [–]subbookkeepperNimble Navigator 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                      What personal qualities about him resonate with you?

                                      He is a strong and caring leader that will fight to defend his flock.

                                      I have the privilege of knowing someone like that in my life and I would gladly follow them anywhere.

                                      What policies do you think he would fight for as president that appeal to you?

                                      The end of political correctness and the intelligent way he goes about negotiating and influencing those around him.

                                      [–]BurnbuddhaburnNimble Navigator 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                      Just wanted to chime in and congrat both sides of this debate on finally engaging in a discussion. Top kek Edit and I'm a trump supporter not sure how that label got up there --nimble

                                      [–]AutoModerator[M] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                      [–]TendiesOutForHarambeNon-Trump Supporter 15ポイント16ポイント  (24子コメント)

                                      In terms of personal qualities, many Americans as well as myself enjoy his no BS attitude and willingness and determination to back up his words and beliefs. Just today, we witnessed him discuss and nail out a 5 point shared policy agreements with the current president of Mexico. I'll be honest, seeing him be able to hammer out a diplomatic agreement in only a few hours impressed me greatly and really proves to me as well as many others how dedicated he is to sticking to his beliefs. This meeting also showcased his first show of diplomatic prowess on an international stage and he succeeded magnificently. Policy wise I agree wholeheartedly on his economic stances. NAFTA (Signed by Bill Clinton) was and still is a complete disaster of a free trade agreements that only allows US companies and corporations to fire its American workers living on a living wage and move to Mexico to hire poor Mexican citizens for cents on the dollar per hour. This outsourcing of US companies must cease and under the TPP (Trans Pacific Partnership) which Clinton praised over 40 times and called the "gold standard" of trade deals, American workers and thus US manufacturing capabilities which are still the backbone of our US Economy will continue to outsourced to Pacific and Southeast Asian countries. This even more US companies and corporations will move to these new countries, fire working Americans and exploit the poor working citizens of these new Asian countries. There are plenty of other policies in which I agree with that Trump has to offer but I'm sure other kind Trump supporters will be happy to give their thoughts.

                                      [–]ObnoxiousMammalNimble Navigator 2ポイント3ポイント  (21子コメント)

                                      Tag up as a Trump supporter, friend! Reply --nimble to get your flair!

                                      [–]HANGNAIL_INMY_VAGINANimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                      --nimble

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                                        [–]Brobi_WanKenobiNimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                        --nimble

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                                              [–]acetrainergreenNimble Navigator 23ポイント24ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                              Hello, I'm the creator of the HOW TO: Red Pill guide. It has over 200+ resources on the "Untruth About Donald Trump" I highly recommend you checking it out.

                                              This video is one of the primary reasons I want Donald Trump for office.

                                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCabT_O0YSM

                                              It shows how he has been fighting for the same things for decades. He has never pandered or flip-flopped as the media wants you to believe.

                                              For policies,

                                              The only thing that I want him to fight for would have to be the corruption within the political establishment. There is corruption from the smallest forms of government to Obama himself. I firmly believe he will deliver on fixing the corruption within.

                                              [–]AnimblenavigatorNimble Navigator 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              Americanism, not globalism.

                                              Putting America and Americans first.

                                              Chop up Obamacare because it's a broken system, first hand experience. It's killing the middle class and worse, it doesn't work!

                                              Personal qualities. Bold, brash, big thinker, business savvy, will say something truthful even if you don't like it. He's like a modern day Teddy Roosevelt in a business suit.

                                              [–]RedPillDessertNimble Navigator 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              I worry about Islam gaining a foothold, and that by inviting second/third world people from the Middle East, or illegal migrants from Mexico and South America into the US, over time it could slowly start to turn it into the place they came from - another third world. Furthermore, it would seem most of the general public from countries such as Saudi Arabia are corrupt - not just their governments.

                                              I'll be honest and also say directly that in my view, he's the best chance to stop white people from dying out (from from 30% to 15% of the world's population and dropping fast). By building a wall, and stringently vetting immigrants, we can have a future, just like other peoples from other backgrounds are allowed to have. Even if you think all races are equal in every way, it's not fair to only bombard white countries with non-white people, whilst Africa, India, China and the Middle East remain relatively untouched by the West etc. I mean that with respect as you obviously get some great people from these countries too.

                                              I must also add that even if it wasn't for the above, I still think Trump would be an improvement over Clinton due to his plans to bring jobs back to the American people, and stuff like a simplified tax code and better financial sense generally.

                                              [–]ToTheRescuesNimble Navigator 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              First of all, thank you for reaching out and doing your research. I respect that.

                                              Background of myself: I'm a young, white, male who grew up conservative and somewhat Christian. I'm now Agnostic and consider myself Independent. Also, a supporter of Left and Right Libertarian politics.

                                              I consider myself open minded and tolerant until I see a trend reaching authoritarian or totalitarian levels, then I'll go on the offensive.

                                              Why do I support Trump? Well, in short, I believe our leaders in Washington are corrupt and I'm hoping an outsider can attempt to break up that system.

                                              My opinion is that our government has shifted to a Oligarchy, spiced with a bit of Corporatism.

                                              Trump could be forced to participate in this corruption or he could be the outsider that stops it.

                                              At this point, it's the best chance I have. All other decisions are just paths to more of the same.

                                              I like how Trump will bring up topics that no other politician has the courage to bring up.

                                              National sovereignty and globalist policies ought to be discussed openly, because it affects all of us. Normal politicians don't dare talk about it because it's bad for business.

                                              Trump stands when everyone else sits. I respect that tremendously. To me, that's a true leader.

                                              [–]Anal_VacuumNimble Navigator 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              Sure, I love having discussions about politics where neither side gets completely downvoted, so I hope everyone else here doesn't downvote you.

                                              Anyways, I like Trump because I'm a fan of nationalism. Not white nationalism, just pride in putting your country first. I was born in a hellhole of a country (USSR), so I moved to America because it was such a unique place where everyone had a chance. What I've noticed about the democratic party is they want to make America more like Europe, and Trump resonates with me when he talks about how we should be our own country and put ourselves first. I'm also somewhat conservative, so the supreme court is a big deal. I don't like when he says things like "what difference does it make?" When talking to black voters. But its a small price to pay.

                                              [–]Jon_NyanNimble Navigator 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              I mean, I probably would have voted for whoever the Republican candidate was, considering I almost entirely agree with the GOP platform and almost entirely disagree with the Democratic platform.

                                              Regardless, I did support Trump above anyone else, primarily because of the Wall, deporting illegals, and banning Muslims.

                                              [–]Mentioned_VideosNon-Trump Supporter 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              Videos in this thread:

                                              Watch Playlist ▶

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                                              (1) FULL: The Donald Trump Speech that if Everyone Saw, He Would Win Easily (West Bend, WI 8/16/16) (2) Full speech: Ivanka Trump addresses the 2016 RNC (3) Donald Trump Wants To Legalize Marijuana 44 - YES...I agree!!! Law vs Lawlessness During Trump's speech about "violence, riots, and destruction" in Milwaukee, he talks about how everyone benefits from safe communities, the law-abiding African American citizens who suffer from these r...
                                              This Video Will Get Donald Trump Elected 25 - Hello, I'm the creator of the HOW TO: Red Pill guide. It has over 200+ resources on the "Untruth About Donald Trump" I highly recommend you checking it out. This video is one of the primary reasons I want Donald Trump for office. It sho...
                                              Immigration, World Poverty and Gumballs - NumbersUSA.com 9 - Why shouldn't America make immigration decisions based on what's best for the American people? From what it sounds like, you're a big-hearted person who wants to help the rest of the world. A noble goal, I agree. However, immigration policy is not...
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                                              The Dangers of Common Core Dr. Duke Pesta and Stefan Molyneux 4 - Thanks for your response, it's a good discussion. but there simply is no way to have more individual instruction unless we have more teachers, which means increasing our state/federal education budget. ^ This is a chicken/egg argument. The Depar...
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                                              By The Numbers - The Untold Story of Muslim Opinions & Demographics 2 - The most non PC video about Islam, Muslim opinions and demographics Would like to know your thoughts after watching it. The video is only 12 minutes. It's worth watching!
                                              Muslim faith schools in the UK "Kill, kill, kill" 2 - I'm just jumping in on the conversation, here. First of all I want to thank you for taking the time to find out what the Trump campaign is all about. For me personally it has less to do with Trump himself and more to do with putting a stop to the eff...
                                              The Brussels Bombing, Vibrant DIVERSITY & Why TRUMP CAN WIN 1 - Look at immigration. Trump wants legal immigration. We'd like to get the good immigrants and not get the criminal ones. The democrat party acts like it wants open, unsecure borders, and that it's racist to think otherwise. It seems they want million...
                                              (1) The Untruth About Donald Trump (2) More Untruth About Donald Trump 1 - Check out the "untruth about Donald Trump" It systematically explains almost all of his positions/controversies The presenter also has an amazing channel
                                              Robin S Eubanks - Social & Emotional Teaching as a Weapon 1 - RE: common core - I strongly recommend reading this post and if you have the time listening to the podcast. Common Core and it's "supporting research" has a long history in what is effectively social engineering. See also

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                                              [–]DevFroNimble Navigator 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              What personal qualities resonate with you?

                                              Leadership ability. When Trump is speaking, people listen and want to work for him. He gets results (as is evidenced by his success as an outsider in this election and as a businessman). He'll also take the harder right over the easier wrong -- he'll say what needs to be said instead of what's easy to say. His children are also examples of his leadership as a father -- not all rich kids turn out to be successful and upstanding individuals, but his certainly did.

                                              Love for country. He wants what is best for America. He's not a career politician trying to reinforce his family's dynastic legacy or serve corporate interests. He's a 70-year old billionaire with three successful children (and another in university). He could could be kicking back on a beach somewhere in the Caribbean if he wanted to. Instead, he has risked his family name and the success of his businesses to serve the American people.

                                              I think that the primary responsibility of the American government is to serve the American people. This doesn't need to be at the expense of other countries, but the absolute first consideration needs to be American citizens.

                                              What policies do you think he would fight for as president that appeal to you?

                                              America first. I already talked about this earlier, but I'll reiterate that America needs to come first. That means that we will not serve special interests and that corporate globalism is not the future of this country.

                                              Accountability. No more corruption or scandal. Politicians and special interests need to be held accountable, called out for their misbehavior, and punished under the law.

                                              National security. I support legal immigration fully and think it's a great opportunity for America and immigrants. However, illegal immigration needs to stop because it jeopardizes our country's security and economy. I like that Trump will be tough on illegal immigration while maintaining a mutually beneficial relationship with our neighbors (e.g., Mexico). I don't support a ban on Muslim immigrants (or of any demographic), but I agree that strong vetting procedures are necessary until stability is restored to the Middle-East and Northern Africa. Opening the floodgates to thousands of refugees is equivalent to putting American citizens' safety and well-being second and is unacceptable. We've already seen what has happened to Europe, and we need to learn from that unfortunate example.

                                              If you've read my post, you'll notice that I haven't really gotten too deep into partisan politics. I vote based on the candidate and the choice to me here is clear. Electing Trump sets a strong precedence that dishonesty and quid-pro-quo has no place in American politics and that democracy can prevail over what could nearly be called oligarchy. It's unfortunate that I'm able to say that in seriousness, but that's what the left and establishment have managed to do to this election.

                                              [–]Destroya12Nimble Navigator 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                              What personal qualities about him resonate with you?

                                              This has already been answered quite well by others. I'll add something that I haven't seen here yet, though it does require me to explain a bit beforehand. TLDR down below.

                                              Our nation was founded on the principle of balance of power. On that there is little debate. The founders wanted the three branches of government to be roughly equal in power so as to prevent any one of them from becoming tyrannical and abusive. Whether you are a Democrat or a Republican I think we can all agree that is a good thing, no? Our entire discourse on both sides agrees with this, so I doubt anyone will take issue with that.

                                              However, I also think it's fair to say that in the 200+ years since the Founders lived there have been many developments, many things that have shaped our democracy that they didn't foresee. In other words, there are forces that affect our democracy, forces that wield influence, that they didn't anticipate. Again, on that I think we can agree.

                                              One such force, and the one that I'm mainly interested in, is the Media. The simple fact is that the media has changed tremendously since the founders lived. They didn't have 24 hour news cycles, they didn't have social media or hashtag trends, they didn't have reporters picking apart the personal lives of every candidate, they didn't have a handful of corporations controlling all information, etc. All of that has changed in modern times, but what hasn't changed much is the public's reaction to the media. Because they were left out of the Founder's original balance of power equation, many have been raised to think that the media is always on the people's side, and therefore do not afford them the same level of skepticism that they would give to a politician. Perhaps not explicitly, but the lack of attention to the media breeds this sort of mindset.

                                              This is a problem, and a huge one. Since 6 corporations control virtually all information you get to see, they wield tremendous power that goes virtually unchecked. This flies in the face of the balance of power principle. Does anyone here think that the news truly serves the American people by being fair, balanced and unbiased anymore? I doubt it. Heck, even if you like Hillary, do you think that Fox, Breitbart, The National Review, or Business Insider give her equal treatment? I doubt it. Yet despite this failing, people still flock to these sources by the millions, to consume their increasingly biased and self serving rhetoric and color their worldview with fewer and fewer objective facts and more and more editorializing all without question. It has, in my view, been a driving force of why Americans are so hopelessly divided these days.

                                              Enter Trump. He's been hammering the media on a near daily basis since the election began. He's hit almost every major news source for their subjective coverage, and terrible reporting, and to moderate effect. We've seen CNN and MSNBC dropping in the polls, we've seen "unbiased news" hit all time highs numerous times in Google search analytics.

                                              This is a good thing. It means that, slowly but surely, people are beginning to afford the same level of skepticism of media as elected leaders. Those who control what information, what stories, and what narratives we hear absolutely need to be questioned. It is the only way for us to have a vibrant public debate and a truly informed public. To do otherwise is to descend further into the partisan sludge that so many outlets have dragged us into. It is akin to the public willfully backing a government they know is dysfunctional, corrupt, abusive, and self-serving for no good reason, all while continuing to sing its praises.

                                              As of right now I don't think that the public's reaction has gone far enough. Trump has merely sewn the seeds in this election. If he wins and maintains his hard stance on the media then the mistrust of the media and calls for better reporting will only increase, and ratings for traditional sources who don't heed these calls will only decrease.

                                              That's why I like Trump. He's bringing back a characteristic that is vital to a functioning democracy; a skeptical public interested in objective fact over subjective narrative, and over petty partisan politics. It's not the only reason but it's a big one, and one that I don't see mentioned a lot.

                                              TLDR: Because he's turning the public off of the media and getting them to question narratives they're sold.

                                              Edit: Thanks for keeping and open mind, OP. We need more people like you willing to engage in respectful open discourse. God Bless!

                                              [–]Alexander_RayNon-Trump Supporter 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              To be honest, I mostly support Trump because Hillary laughs gleefully and shakes her fists in the air when she talks about killing people.

                                              [–]roostercrashNon-Trump Supporter 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                              He wants to lower the amount of H1B visas awarded to companies. It's the only thing I care about.

                                              [–]j0ssv8Nimble Navigator 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                              Well I am over 1/2 a century old. I have heard Trump speaking the same language and substance since the 80's basically. He was "predicting", based on only civilian knowledge, how our country would turn out economically if we let ONLY politicians make our countries financial and trade policy decisions.

                                              Turns out he has been right about that AND many other smaller things, common sense is sorely lacking in most Americans, let alone totally disregarded by greedy politicians that only think about their own neck and portfolio.

                                              Any one in this country who whine about "TONE" or "TEMPERAMENT" needs their head examined, before some terrorist chops it off, or some BLM sympathizer with the excuse of "MUH oppression" blows it off with an ILLEGAL gun.

                                              And I COULD NEVER vote for someone who BOLD FACE LIES into a camera about KNOWN misdeeds that would see the average American locked away to ROT.

                                              Trump, for all his faults (and we all have faults) is a GOOD man...he just is.

                                              --nimble

                                              [–]A166524Non-Trump Supporter 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              Hello there, I'm a registered republican, 27 years old, my first election 8 years ago I voted for myself (write in), last election I voted for Gary Johnson, this year I'm all in for Trump and here's why:

                                              To me Trump represents the people unlike any politician before. He has money but does not come from the same political class, his words and actions lead me to think he is truly sincere about wanting to make America a better country, no one can doubt it's a mess right now.

                                              His message on trade and immigration are his strongest. We are without question being raped across the globe in trade, we don't manufacture anything at home and as a result we have no low income jobs left which contributes to record numbers on social services. There used to be a time someone could get a job in manufacturing with little education and support a family but no more, Trump will bring that back.

                                              On immigration and terrorism he is the only person talking sense. It is not "racist, xenophobic or bigoted" to state the plain truth. Right now there's clearly an issue within Islam and the religion as a whole needs to undergo a reformation, as Christianity once did when it too was a barbaric religion. We as a modern country cannot take people in, unvetted, who do not appreciate our culture or respect our values, people who want to take our country and make it more like their former countries. A blending of culture is celebrated not an erasing of one.

                                              Strong borders are essential Mexican president Nieto stated yesterday that the wave of illegal, non Mexican, migrants coming to the US through Mexican borders is a issue for them too. Border security benefits all not just one, trumps speeches yesterday show he's capable of being the statesmen and not a bully.

                                              TLDR: I could go on forever why I like trump but in the end his speeches simple resonate with me, that and Hillary is the most corrupt individual ever to run for presidency, moreso than Nixon or even Taft.

                                              [–]trump_ftw6Nimble Navigator 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              I was initially drawn to Trump because he's an unashamedly pro-American candidate who wants to take advantage of America's unique strength and position in the world to negotiate deals and improve the lives of American citizens first. I also really like that he's rich enough that the standard Gawker-style snark routine doesn't work on him and that he doesn't apologize unless he's actually wrong.

                                              [–]2016PoliticsNimble Navigator 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              I wanted to hear from the other side of the aisle instead of hearing the same stuff parroted about on the rest of reddit.

                                              Fantasitc! Welcome!!!

                                              The fact that there is so much support for him means that something he is saying/doing has struck a chord with a large portion of the population and I am interested in what the root of that is.

                                              Thank you for your open-mind, let's disucss the issues! :-)

                                              What personal qualities about him resonate with you?

                                              I like his ability to be diplomatic when it is called for and **HIGH ENERGY when trying to rally a room full of people to help achieve a specific goal (in this case trying to get him elected).

                                              What policies do you think he would fight for as president that appeal to you?

                                              The policies that most appeal to me are...

                                              THE WALL

                                              • While the media makes the wall sound like it is based on hate, there are legitimate (and not hateful) reasons to have our borders secured. One of the reasons is that right now our country is taking advantage of undocumented people for agricultural purposes (the argument being that if we paid minimum wage, the cost of food would go up...but we could easily put our STEM grads to work and renovate our food industry to be less back-breaking, more effective, and to not rely on the exploitation of people not currently being offered minimum wage, OSHA protections, workers comp, etc...).

                                              • The wall will allow us to do background checks on people and make sure that they do not have a history of severe child abuse, sexual misconduct, or other serious offenses which might make a person ineligible to move here until a certain amount of time passes and they regain our trust.

                                              • While I disagree with federal gun/weapon restrictions, we do have laws prohibiting certain types of weapons and the only way to enforce those laws and not have banned weapons entering our country is to seal our border. I can't get on a plane to go one state over with a simple pocket knife or nail clippers, but some people are totally ok leaving our border open to disease, smuggled drugs, smuggled weapons, and even human trafficking.

                                              • "Modernizing" the border is now supported by Mexican President, Enrique Peña Nieto!!!

                                              POVERTY

                                              • Black inner city youth have an unemployment rate that is more than 300% higher than the national average. This is NOT due to laziness, but instead lack of jobs and poor economic circumstances. Trump has repeatedly talked about this issue and his economic plans will benefit every American.

                                              • His plan to re-balance trade deficits with other countries (China for example) will make America competitive again in the world market, bringing us jobs and tax revenue.

                                              • Trump's tax plan removes many families from having the burden of filing taxes each year. To pay for this, he plans to enforce corporate taxes fairly/evenly instead of allowing companies with good lawyers to pay reduced taxes (lower effective tax rate than statuatory tax rate) or even getting negative income tax. He will also bring jobs and money back from overseas, which will help fund programs like social security and his healthcare reforms.

                                              Healthcare

                                              • I personally have low-income family members who rely on Obamacare, yet they are often unable to get the medical care they need despite having "coverage." One member of my family almost died after Obamacare took more than 4 weeks to approve a life-saving procedure that is normally performed within 24-48hrs of hospital admission (instead my family member was kept in the ICU for weeks on end, got more sick, almost died, then had to be transferred to a specialty hospital at additional cost to ourselves and tax payers because the condition got worse by not having care). THIS MUST STOP!!!

                                              • Learn about insurance companies profiting from Obamacare at the exense of patients.

                                              • Trump talks about issues of high deductibles, high premiums, and other financial barriers for healthcare.

                                              • He wants to replace Obamacare, not remove it and leave everyone without access to care.

                                              Stopping Racism

                                              • Trump is not racist. Some videos to help dispell this rumor include (but are not limited to) videos of female black employees, female hispanic employees, and this video showing HIllary making very racist statements, and I'd like to point out how Trump (not Hillary or Obama) went to both Milwaukee and Louisiana to try and help.

                                              • This list is a list of Black Trump Supporters, including the grand-daughter of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr, Dr. Alveda King.

                                              • George Soros (who everyone acknowledges is one of Hillary's main financial contributors) grew up in Nazi Germany and speaks about it being a very "happy" time and that he has no regrets or feelings of guilt after literally helping the Nazis to collect people's property and send them off to death camps. He defends his lack of guilt by saying if it was not him it would have been someone else, which is not an excuse!

                                              • While Trump is accused of being racist for having a bad earpliece when he failed to quickly disavow on the spot David Duke (who left the klan in 1980 and is no longer affiliated with them), Trump has since disavowed the support of any racist and Hillary is the candidate of choice for current Grand Draggon Will Quigg but has NOT disavowed the support of Soros, Quigg, or other racist people/groups...she has spoken highly of Senator Byrd (her husband also defended Byrd's involvement in the KKK ), helped support the crime bill that lead to the dispraportionate numbers of black people incarcerated, and is heavily funded by Soros who literally helped the Nazis.

                                              Supporting LGBT Equality

                                              • Trump is the most supportive Republican in history for LGBTQ people.

                                              • The Trump movement caused a major change at the RNC, and for the first time in history cheered for LGBT equality.

                                              DIVERSITY

                                              Despite what the media has told you, Trump has a very DIVERSE crowd of supporters. Some of his supporters include (but aren't limited to)...

                                              Trump cares about ALL Americans!!!

                                              GOVERNMENT

                                              Trump said that, "We will no longer surrender this country, or its people to the false song of globalism."

                                              ...and finally...

                                              I am not trying to start some internet argument or anything, I am just genuinely interested in hearing your points of view.

                                              We only argue/get mean with people who are very bigoted and don't want to actually discuss things. You are totally welcome here. Ask as many questions as you'd like! :-)

                                              [–]GregasaurusRektzNon-Trump Supporter 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              He has the blessing of Lord Kek - anyone he touches gets an immediate boost to their Strength, Stamina, and charisma for 68 days. He speaks his mind, and talks to the people directly. Also, he doesn't have to do this, he truly wants to make this country great again

                                              [–]weiss27mdNon-Trump Supporter 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              I think he would help the economy more than any president in the past couple decades. I believe his policies would lower violence and bring more unity.

                                              [–]Parcus42Non-Trump Supporter 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              U/elbanofeliz are you converted yet?

                                              [–]ThugLifeNewShitNimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              Look at immigration. Trump wants legal immigration. We'd like to get the good immigrants and not get the criminal ones.

                                              The democrat party acts like it wants open, unsecure borders, and that it's racist to think otherwise. It seems they want millions more people that they can count on to become democrat voters, at the expense of the rest of the country. Looks like cheating to me. Lower wages, less security, more criminals running around.

                                              check out this channel for intelligent arguments, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z35bbBBwQHQ

                                              [–]peachypootsNon-Trump Supporter 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              Speaking as a left winger, I support Trump predominately because I think Hillary has people assassinated that risk revealing her corruption. For me that's a big deal breaker that I just can't get over.

                                              [–]Boosted_C5Non-Trump Supporter 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                              I'm going to stray from the unique qualities of Trump and focus on the most important issue to me, an issue that any of the other GOP candidates also would get a check-mark for from me - SUPREME COURT nominations.

                                              Despite all the bluster and fear mongering from the left, the reality is that ONLY civil liberties traditionally championed by the right are in grave danger depending on the 1 certain and possibly more upcoming appointments to the Supreme Court. Until Justice Scalia's death, the Supreme Court was characterized by a 4 decade long, uninterrupted GOP appointee majority. Yet despite this face and despite the left's constant fear mongering, Roe v Wade was never overturned and abortion is still legal in America, not to mention taxpayer funded. Gay Americans were not oppressed by the court, but rather their rights were championed, culminating with the recent decision making gay marriage the nationwide law of the land. Though PPACA was passed without a single GOP vote, and though most polls have and continue to show more Americans disapprove then approve of it, the GOP controlled SCOTUS did not act in a partisan manner and strike it down, but rather upheld it.

                                              This is because Republicans have a long history of appointing a diverse range of jurists, from extremely conservative ones like Scalia and Thomas, to moderate ones like Roberts, centrists like Kennedy, or even in a few cases justices that were more liberal than conservative like Stevens (Ford) and Souter (Bush).

                                              On the other side of the court however, there is no moderation. The 4 justices making up the left wing of the court voted lock-step in the horrific minority opinions in Heller and McDonald (2nd amendment). Lock-step in Citizens United (1st amendment). Lock step in Kelo (private property/eminent domain) where they were unfortunately joined by Kennedy for a majority.

                                              I know this thread is about why we support Trump, but I feel it is appropriate to contrast him with Mrs. Clinton on this subject. Despite his bluster and ego, Mr. Trump is smart enough to know what he does not know. He asked for and received the help from advisers like Jeff Sessions in coming up with a list or pool of jurists from which he would draw SCOTUS nominations, and this list consists of nothing but constitutionalists who are unlikely to engage in judicial activism and likely to defend our Bill of Rights. Hillary Clinton on the other hand has very publicly condemned the court's correct decision in Citizens United and made it clear she does not favor free political speech, and has implied via her criticism of Citizens United that she also disagrees with the courts finding in NAACP vs. Alabama of an inherent right of freedom of association that goes with free speech (essentially the right of people to band together to make their speech more effective). She has made it clear she would appoint justices who would have ruled with the minorty in that decision AGAINST our first amendment rights.

                                              Mrs. Clinton has also publicly condemned the majority opinions in Heller and McDonald. Condemning those decisions means you reject the one and only proper interpretation of the second amendment, that our individual right to keep and bear arms may not be infringed upon by the government, and the one and only proper theory of incorporation, that the 14th amendment incorporated ALL of the first 8 amendments as to the states, as specifically stated by the amendment's author John Bingham (R, Ohio) on the congressional record, and as understood by supporters and opponents of the amendment in congress. In addition Mrs. Clinton's own campaign website states that she would remove gun manufacturer immunity from civil suit by repealing the rotection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act. She lies and claims it prevents gun makers from being sued for negligence, which is false. It only protects them from frivolous suits by victims of gun violence seeking deeper pockets than those of their assailant, i.e. the one actually at fault. Repeal of this law is nothing more than and end-around the second amendment, by allowing the possibility of gun manufacturers being sued out of existence. Her own site also states her continued support for banning the most popular firearms in America under the guise of labeling them MILITARY STYLE WEAPONS, a meaningless propaganda scare term designed to incite fear in people who do not know anything about firearms. The government itself studied the "ASSAULT WEAPON" ban of the 1990s and concluded it did nothing to prevent crime or violence. Banning law abiding gun owners favorite firearms and accessories would serve only to infringe upon their second amendment rights, and has no crime reduction or mass shooting prevention value. (Related to the second Amendment, Hillary and her cohorts have also made it clear they seek to trample those rights by also trampling our 5th amendment rights by barring any US citizen placed on a no-fly list from purchasing firearms.)

                                              Only 2 GOP appointees currently on the court as right-wing conservatives, Thomas and Alito. 2 GOP appointees are moderates (Roberts and Kennedy) and pose ZERO risk of using a GOP majority to engage in judicial activism, eschew the doctrine of stare decisis, and roll back abortion rights, gay rights, etc. On the other hand there are already 4 far left ideologues who have predictably and consistently ruled against civil liberties and the Bill of Rights in cases and on issues near and dear to the American right. One more, and it's game over. The left is already publicly and gleefully salivating over the opportunity not emulate the 40 year GOP majority and respect rights the other side champions, but rather the opportunity to undermined Heller, McDonald, Citizens United, etc. and to attack civil liberties we care about and cherish.

                                              When it comes to having a fair, impartial, apolitical Supreme Court that will respect and champion the rights of ALL people and protect ALL of the Bill of Rights, we're never going to have perfection. But in this election there is a CLEAR choice when it comes to who, as President, is far more likely to make SCOTUS appointments that strive toward this goal. And that candidate is Donald Trump.

                                              [–]greendevNon-Trump Supporter 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              Ok. Here's my take on it. Anti-establishment. Bernie was my initial choice. Bernie and Trump are the two outside guys with the least amount of tangle to the current corrupted system. Bernie played nice and fell on the dirty tricks of the establishment.

                                              Trump refused to play nice and bulldozed them over. He single handedly ended the Bush dynasty, defeated the conservative wing led by Cruz, and ran the RNC selected Rubio off the race. The Republican party is much different afterward. I want him to continue on to end the corrupted Clinton dynasty as well. When you have the Republican old guards and neo-cons flocked to support Clinton, you know she's part of the problem. She's corrupted to the core. We need to clean house, and Trump is the man to do it.

                                              [–]he-she-me-WUMBONon-Trump Supporter 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              This is what I wish most liberals would act like in political discussion. Sticking to the issues. When I try to discuss policies between Trump and clinton I get called a bigot/racist/redneck/, etc.

                                              [–]DaktushNimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              Hey, yesterday someone posted a thread titled "Why shouldn't I vote for hillary?" so I'm going to post one of mine and another of the comments found there. That together with Trump positive points are what you largely are going to find ITT

                                              (Why shouldn't I vote for Hillary?)

                                              Comment 1: (/u/HarambeTheBear)

                                              • Sold favors from the state department in exchange for speaking fees and clinton foundation donations. (Watch Clinton Cash)

                                              • Lied to a gold star mother about why her son died.

                                              • The russian uranium deal, selling the most dangerous element to our most dangerous nuclear adversary in exchange for personal enrichment.

                                              • Got a child rapist off his rape charges by attacking the victims character. she took the victim through hell by the victims words. the guy raped a child and she got it down to a fondling charge.

                                              • Took money for Haite to rebuild after the earthquake and used the money to build a factory and not much else. where did all the haite money go?

                                              • Who killed vince foster? plus 50 others.

                                              • Islam has nothing to do with terrorism.

                                              • Iraq war. she is a war hawk. i hope you or your children dont get drafted to fight a pointless war.

                                              • Supports TPP. dont believe for a second she wont back track and support it after being elected.

                                              • Loves obamacare, a policy crippling businesses and individuals who are not rich.

                                              • After her husband would assault women she would then attack their character publicly.

                                              Comment 2:

                                              • 1.Changed her stances 1.multiple times, Obama said in 08 "She will say anything to get elected". This coupled with the fact that many that donate to the clinton foundation and pay for Bill's speeches get the most favourable outcomes suggests she will be for sale to the highest bidder (And the Saudis claim to have paid over 20% of her campaign, George Soros is also funding her the same guy that is funding BLM). She isn't even trying to hide this and today (Afaik) she is having fundraisers overseas over holding US rallies.

                                              • Grossly negligent of US top secret documents. Held documents in an unsecure private server, gave uncleared people access, continued keeping/sending emails after she left office and then finally deleted half of them using a program designed to prevent recovery. All the while claiming she didn't break the law willfully and that the 30k emails deleted were her yoga schedules and the like (we know that they were not).

                                              • Commited perjury by lying on the stand about above.

                                              • She Sabotaged Bernie Sanders, planning to use the "Jew" card on him in order to get the nomination

                                              • She is unfit. There is strong evidence to the fact that she has brain damage. There is also strong evidence she wears a catherer (1, 2, 3). She is also a lot less active than trump (0 vs 16 press conferences this year, Trump holds 1 or more rallies per day whereas she does not get even close) and needs regular bathroom breaks (maybe she started wearing a catherer then?), hell even her top aide admitted she is "often confused" and that she couldn't confirm a meeting with a saudi prince 2 days in advance because she didn't know how she would feel.

                                              • Speaking of her top aide, Huma Abedin. She has "conservative" islamic connections (having been an editor of a really conservative, even radical magazine and her family being involved in the muslim brotherhood). She also had access to Hillary's account and sent and recieved emails from there while not having clearance.

                                              • She uses race baiting to win. Literally all I have heard from her side is calling the other side raycis (while she called a KKK grand wizard friend and mentor, was a goldwater girl, called blacks super predators and introduced the incredibly harsh imprisonment laws that are tearing black communities apart)

                                              • She panders, speaking with different accents depending on location even lying in her public appearances . No one likes a fake

                                              • She is the least liked candidate in US history if you exclude Trump (which she and her super PAC's are paying ridiculous amounts to smear, going as far as to have paid people posting on the internet for her)

                                              • While she and her husband were in office a great amount of scandals happened. If Hillary's time should be taken into account it would be not to put her back in in the white house, but to keep her out.

                                              [–]defmacro-jamNimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              What personal qualities about him resonate with you?

                                              • He's kind. He has helped many people -- often anonymously -- when nobody else gave a damn. The most touching to me, was the case where a father had committed suicide to literally buy the farm. But his life insurance was still insufficient. Donald J Trump stepped in and saved the family farm.
                                              • He's masculine at a time when it's unpopular to be masculine. And of course, masculinity doesn't give a damn. Masculinity was never meant to do the popular thing. Masculinity was meant to do the right thing. Boys need a masculine role model.
                                              • He's not going to let the PC Nazis silence him or derail the conversation (see masculinity)
                                              • He's unafraid (see masculinity)
                                              • He loves our country.
                                              • He loves our people.
                                              • He's protective of our country and its people (see masculinity)

                                              What policies do you think he would fight for as president that appeal to you?

                                              • Fight against the TPP and other "free trade" treaties -- and any other treaties that take away our national sovereignty or take away from our self-determination.
                                              • Ensure our veterans get the care they need wherever and whenever they need it.
                                              • Modernizing the VA, and empower the doctors and nurses to ensure our veterans receive the best care available in a timely manner.
                                              • Simplify and lower taxes.

                                              [–]H0meskilitNon-Trump Supporter 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              The main reasons why I'm supporting him is, to answer you first question is, he's tough and definitely shows it. Another other reason is this little government of ours is obviously corrupt and I think he may shake it up a little bit. Also, as Lionel put it, Hillary vs Trump (now this is an opinion I agree with, not trying to start anything lol) is like cyanide vs a mystery box. The mystery box may be bad but it also may be good, who knows(?!), but with the other side you know you are getting something that will be awful. That's why I'm voting Trump. I'll admit that he does piss me off sometimes because he says things that I think are drastically taken out of context and he doesn't actually mean, but he still says them which just allows him to get fucked by the media. I want him to play it a little smarter like recently, don't give the MSM the opportunity to mess with you. Also, in that way, he seems more human and genuine to me unlike a big government "robot" and I like that, idk why. He says things he doesn't mean sometimes just like me and most people in the world, but I agree he needs to be smarter with what he says, even if it's incredibly harmless. Oh also, my family members are in or going into the military and I for one think he'll take great care of our vets (which they deserve over anyone imo) and I don't trust Hillary with foreign diplomacy. She could potentially create a conflict we will regret and I don't want that to happen. That's just my two cents (sorry about the length lol).

                                              [–]agreatfuckinusernameNimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              I am fiscally conservative and socially liberal. Libertarian so to speak. I voted for Obama 8 years ago, because I was sick of hearing about stupid religious right ideas like praying the gay away and using asprin as birth control. Last election, Johnson.

                                              There has been a lot of rhetoric trying to paint Trump as homophobic and racist. But you cannot get around the fact that he is singlehandedly pushing the GOP away from its (IMHO) backwards conservative stances. Some have said he's dragging them kicking and screaming into the 21st century. He has other appealing qualities, other Redditors have covered them well, but this is the biggest thing for me. I will close with an example, an excerpt from the Republican National Convention, something that could have never been said at the Convention 8 years ago:

                                              “As your president I will do everything in my power to protect our LGBTQ citizens from a hateful foreign ideology... believe me,” Trump vowed to major applause.

                                              “And I have to say, as a Republican, it is so nice to hear you cheering for what I just said. Thank you.”

                                              [–]bryanhardieNon-Trump Supporter 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              Thank you OP and all the other non supporters in this thread. It's refreshing to see rational discussion between the two sides.

                                              [–]CitizenJosephNon-Trump Supporter 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              Trump is a straight shooter and not politically correct. He doesn't hide from problems, he attacks them.

                                              I like to consider myself a constitutional anarchist. Lay down some basic rules and enforce them. But don't change the rules midgame. To that end, I have tried in the past to knock down any proposed amendments, repeal any laws that have been passed, split the ticket so that no one party can push laws through, etc. At first the pundits were saying that Trump couldn't get anything done because congress wouldn't pass anything for him. But that is exactly what I was looking for. Lock up the government so they'd stop fucking up America.

                                              I still think Congress will oppose Trump, but I also think that Trump has ways of going to the American People to get things done, rather than trying to legislate his way through his term. I am absolutely disgusted with the way Obama is shoving laws down our throats with his executive orders.

                                              Right now, I feel America is hemorrhaging socially and economically. We are not enforcing laws consistently and that is a sign of tyranny. The Wall is triage. So any people are illegally crossing the border with drugs and crime, and then crossing back with our money and guns. We can't just treat the symptoms, we have to get to the root of the problem. The wall will work.

                                              We need to enforce our laws in general, but for immigration specifically. I won't go so far as to say deportation is the only solution, but it is A solution. If we don't enforce our legal immigration laws, then all we will have is illegal immigration. In my opinion, they all have to go, even the anchor babies. If they haven't committed any felonies (or other disqualifying features, like diseases), then they can get to the back of the line with the rest of the applicants. The closest I'd offer to amnesty is not disqualifying them on the basis of sneaking in in the first place. They still need to do the process.

                                              I am very much pro-2nd Amendment (and all of the constitution). 2A doesn't give us the right to bear arms, it prevents the government from taking that right away. I am disgusted with all the gun control that has been going on, and I think any congressman that suggests it should be tried for sedition and then hung for treason. Let me make this absolutely clear... I don't care how many people die from guns, the right to own one is absolute. At least those people went easily. Anyone that wants to kill someone isn't going to stop at "gun free zone" and if they have to use a knife or a bat, that's just an ugly drawn out death.

                                              I'm very much in favor of handing stuff off to the state and local governments. Surprise, surprise, that is in the constitution. Several of Trump's policies, and most of the controversial stuff, can be solved by letting local governments solve it within their own ethical and moral structure. People in different areas have differing beliefs, and they are allowed to follow those beliefs constitutionally. They are better judges of what is acceptable in their community than someone that doesn't have to experience it.

                                              For foreign policy, be it wars or trade, ever since the Korean War, we have been trying to win over the hearts and minds of foreigners. They have not worked. People don't like it when you mess with their affairs... period. You can't go into some country, destabilize them, then hope that they will forgive you by not taking spoils of war. The last time America came away with a friendly attitude was Japan WWII. And at that time we occupied their island for decades and rebuilt their infrastructure. Now, they threaten us or think of us as jokes. Don't interfere in other countries. If you must interfere, you go in hard and you don't stop until the land is glass. You make it absolutely clear to the world that they do not want America interfering in their business. Do NOT poke the bear. I'm pretty sure I'm harsher on foreign policy than Trump, but it is similar America First idea.

                                              [–]hapablap21Non-Trump Supporter 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              I am currently a single issue voter. I am sick and tired of the financial and political elites controlling everything that goes on in this country. I'm tired of bills getting rammed through congress with little public support (TARP, Obamacare, nearly Amnesty) simply because the financial backers in Washington want them. And I'm tired of the rich and powerful getting away with massive criminal behavior just because of who they are. Hillary Clinton is just one example. But I'm also talking about executives at big banks who launder money for drug cartels, Federal Reserve chairs and Treasury secretaries that break black letter law in order to keep their friends in the financial industry safe, monopolists in the healthcare industry and the regulators that allow them to continue to operate that way. I want justice on the streets of detroit and chicago. But I also want it in Manhattan and in Washington D.C.

                                              For the first time in my life (I'm almost 40), a major party in this country has failed to prevent the nomination of someone who's not bought and paid for. If we don't take this opportunity now, I honestly don't think it will happen again before I die. After watching Obama become GWB II, it's become apparent that it doesn't matter who we elect as long as the people buying them stay the same. Trump has taken literally 5 figures of donations from the financial industry. His average donation is less than $100. And he's matched a good percentage of it himself. This is a guy who's been on the buying end of politics and who knows how things work, but he's refusing to play that game. He knows what is expected in return for big contributions. So he's not taking them.

                                              FDR said to judge him not by his friends, but by his enemies. When I look down the list of the people who hate Trump, it's a list of political and financial elites and powerbrokers (including the MSM) who are scared shitless about the power that they're going to lose overnight. I WANT those people to lose power. It's time for the PEOPLE to control the direction of our nation once again.

                                              [–]blackjackjesterNimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              I'll bite!

                                              Personally:

                                              I don't know know Trump personally, nor Hillary, so I don't like to speculate how he is with his family. He is a bit incoherent at times, but he is also passionate. The two main things for me that I like about him personally is that prior to this election, everybody who meets Trump like him, says he's a good guy. People who are around Hillary despise her - there is no lack of evidence of her calling people racial slurs, insulting those around her, talking down to staff and security. Bottom line - people like Trump, people don't like Hillary.

                                              It also really resonated with me when I heard "Before running for office, there isn't a single mention of Trump being racist or a bigot. He's been a public figure for 40 years, and nobody has ever accused him of being those things". Hillary on the other hand has a long record of being on the wrong side of issues, from civil rights in her youth, to LGBT rights through the 90's, and the crime bill she supported that locked up tens of thousands of low income individuals, breaking up families, continuing the cycle of poverty.

                                              On Policy:

                                              Like many others who posted here, "Law and Order" are top. So many of the things that he has promoted are ALREADY laws, but are not so enforced. Immigration and Libel I think are the main ones, both of which we already have laws for, but which are not really enforced. The media seems to be painting him as an authoritarian figure, but these laws literally already exist.

                                              I think it was Obama who said that the "undocumented workers do the jobs Americans don't want to". I believe that the truth is that they do the jobs Americans don't want to at the pay that is offered. By supporting huge numbers of immigrants, legal and illegal, this keeps the job economy flushed with labor, meaning people don't have to pay more to attract Americans to those jobs. Deporting millions of laborers will create a a supply deficit, forcing hiring companies to pay more to attract workers.

                                              On H1B visas, Trump wants to triple the minimum wage for this from 40k to $120k. Some 90% of H1B visas pay the minimum amount, allowing the US to import skilled labor on a huge discount. Mostly in STEM fields, hundreds of thousands of people are coming from emerging countries to work at the bottom of this pay scale just to live in the USA instead of (India, China, Middle East). This means Americans in STEM have a harder time finding well paying jobs to pay off their expensive tuition. It also exploits foreign labor since the company has all the leverage against the employee who should be making double. Hillary wants to expand the H1B program, which I find unacceptable. Side note here - there is a HUGE push to get more women into STEM majors, as there is no shortage of people talking about the wage gap - but tie these two things together - STEM fields are underpaid and over supplied with H1B workers, so these good jobs that women are being told to go into, don't pay as much and aren't as available. I find this to be madness.

                                              I disagree with Trump on Common Core, but I also think the DoE should not be involved in loans. Their budget is in the tens of billions per year, and I really can't imagine what the DoE needs that much money for. End federal student loans, and watch tuition fall.

                                              On Health care - I think Trump is right that Obamacare is crap. It's easy to point to the few million who are insured now, but at what cost? If you burn down your entire house to kill a few spiders - yes you have succeeded in killing the spiders, but you've destroyed your house. I think Obamacare is similar to this - the program does have it's successes, but overall it's been a failure to provide affordable care to the masses.

                                              On marijuana - Trump says it's not a federal issue. He'll deschedule it and let states decide. Hillary disagrees.

                                              On Planned Parenthood - Trump says he's a "huge fan", so I'm not worried about him supporting any legislation that would dismantle it.

                                              On the supreme court - Hillary wants justices that disarm the public, and there is zero chance that they will overturn Citizens United (corporations are people) if she appoints justices. I do believe there is a risk to the LGBT community if conservative justices are added, but public opinion is strongly with the LGBT crowd, and it would only take a new piece of legislation to ensure LGBT rights even in the face of a dissenting supreme court. To this end, I believe 30 more years of corporate ownership of elections is far more dangerous than the risk to civil liberties.

                                              Finally, one of the biggest things that draws me towards Trump is how he interacts with minorities. He treats them as voting, thinking individuals. Hillary generally seems to only address minorities as an identity group - Trump addresses them as individual Americans. It's not the color of their skin, but the content of their character that he cares about - and that really wins me over.

                                              [–]redditinflamesNimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              What personal qualities about him resonate with you?

                                              His stance against this PC culture that is gutting our society. We are being led to believe that the worst problem facing America right now is inherent racism.

                                              Uh, no. Been white all my life, met mostly white people. The most racist people you ever meet usually go, "Do you know the difference between a n***** and a black man?", and shit like that. If that is the terrifying racism dragging down minorities, then these people need to pay closer attention in history class.

                                              We need work. We need jobs. All this racism boiling over is people being broke. It's fucking simple.

                                              [–]Trumpthulhu-FhtagnNimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              My first reply was super argumentative. Here is a second go at it.

                                              1) Trump's does not care about "politically correct". This is his single most important trait. We are governing our world from an illusion.

                                              2) Trump has been anti-war, and anti-military internvetion as far back as there is a record of him having a position on this sisiue. The only exception is the immediate aftermath of 9/11 when he weakly endorsed a violent reply. I want a dove. All the rest of them are war-mongers. (Bernie and Rand perhaps excepted-Obama claimed he would be a peace president, but wow does he love to drone murder children...).

                                              3) Trump's policies for the USA are consistently to give us more local, personal and regional autonomy to make our own choices how we want to live - not the neo-facistic thought control of left. Hillary: “I don’t believe you change hearts,” Clinton told Julius Jones in an candid moment backstage after a campaign event. “I believe you change laws"

                                              3b) As a small business owner I can tell you with innumerable examples that our government is a suffocating influence on small businesses. Trump's plans for change internally (nearly) always hinge on individual and regional freedom. It is 100% true that the vast majority of laws and regulations that impact business are constructed by lobbyist to discourage completion and stifle innovation. The fiction is that these laws exist to protect consumer - but the truth is that (as a specific example) can't buy raw milk, not to protect the 1 person a year that dies of raw milk, but to build a system where only giant corporations can afford to meet the standards of the laws. Any portion of this giant limiting scab that Trump can pick away is going to be amazing for your country and our economy.

                                              [–]TurnovermanNimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              My reasons for supporting him since the primaries (although I'm a registered Independent and plan to never change that, I believe rather strongly in the horseshoe theory) are rather simple.

                                              1. He's not a politician. My belief is that a former engineer would make the best president. The ability to look at inefficiencies and remove them is something the executive branch needs badly. Being a businessman gives him part of that. He's no engineer, but he's still had to spend his life improving systems and making sure they're running in the best way possible, and, as a bonus, he has the ability to hire people to do that well (and the cabinet really has more power than anyone, so that's great).

                                              2. He's, like, actually moderate. When's the last time you've seen an even remotely moderate candidate for anything actually win a primary? He seems to have a live and let live feeling about most social issues (LGBT and race come to mind). He's open and accepting of all Americans. No hatred for those who are deemed unacceptable by the far left (whites, males) or hatred for those deemed unacceptable by the far right and he's even gone so far as to make the GOP a pro LGBT organization... so I don't even know who the far right is supposed to hate anymore. There doesn't seem to be anyone. Moreover, have you heard him mention abortion? Does it seem like he gives two craps? Have you seen him mention any of those other hyper-minor things that always used to be brought up as if they were world-endingly important? Do you think he gives a crap about those?

                                              3. He's going to veto the TPP. If nothing else, this should really be the biggest point of the election. Look up Fight for the Future (FFTF). They're a spinoff of the #WTFU (Where's The Fair Use) movement from YouTube that's been fighting the TPP tooth and nail because, if it's signed into law, corporations win completely. Fair use is dead, it won't just be the EpiPen going up in price, and much worse. Even if I hated the man, the TPP is far worse than anything he could ever hope to do.

                                              4. He's, like, charismatic and stuff. For quite some time, we've had heads of state that are basically laughing stocks for the rest of the world. I mean, come on, we've had Bush and Obama for the past 16 years! With Trump, the world leaders will know that they can't just be jerks to America and expect to get away with it. He'll call them out. He won't apologize. He'll make America a country that gets some respect again from countries that would barely be able to survive without us.

                                              [–]NimblenavigatressNimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              Trump is now saying that immigrants will be chosen by their ability to be financially self-sufficient ...

                                              It’s an amazing fact about US immigration debate that the below idea is considered controversial

                                              That's what PC has done to our culture, and that's a major reason to vote Trump just to repudiate that

                                              [–]BoatsmhoesNon-Trump Supporter 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              For me, a lot of the same things have already been mentioned that I support trump on. Something that I think is a bit different for the reason why I support him is I feel like he's the under dog. There's so much nitpick on everything he says and does. How he eats, talks, moves, ect... I think that how're crazy this sounds, a lot of people that don't want him to win(you know what I mean, like those in power). Because of this is why I want to vote for him.

                                              [–]SuperSizedFriNimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              For me, among other things, its about fresh foreign policy. I hope he can stop this trend of nation building and globalization (in the sense of monetary systems and economies. I believe the reason we topple governments has a lot to do with getting them to adopt global currency methods)

                                              [–]kingofzedNon-Trump Supporter 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              I'm currently still registered as a Democrat but I support Trump.

                                              During this election cycle I quickly realized that I don't have much in common with the Democratic party. I was mostly holding on because I found the Christian right/Social Conservative to be unpalatable. Hey I'm pro-choice and pro-Gay marriage, but we don't need to keep moving the sociological line into the absurdity.

                                              With Trump we have a fiscal conservative who has the flexibility to do what is necessary. He says he is Christian, he says he is now Pro-Life, but I definitely get a: Whatever/Not important vibe on those topics. This is not the type of guy who will sign some BS pledge to do this or that. Nor will he pushed around by the Tea Party or the far Left.

                                              A key for me is the Anti-PC nature of the Trump Movement. Facts are not racist, stating truth is not bigoted, honoring lies for a groups feelings does not aid progress, it hinders it!

                                              Oh yeah, by the way. The USA is the greatest nation to ever exist and we should be proud of that. I am not willing to trade middle class Americans success to China or India for the sake of globalization.

                                              [–]Only_Sub_RicknMortyNimble Navigator 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                              Okay I'm gonna repeat what I have already asked on the discord-server.

                                              What have you guys done to the real internet?

                                              Who are you guys, like seriously!?

                                              It's scray!...in a good way but still scary.

                                              edit: if this is considered trolling feel free to delete it. I'm just amazed that there is a dialog happening online...it's my first time so please don't be to harsh.

                                              [–]RedPillDessertNimble Navigator 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                              Sounds interesting. Can you elaborate? Are you surprised there are people who are pro-Trump and speaking openly online?

                                              [–]Only_Sub_RicknMortyNimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                              no I'm surprised there are people who are talking about politics on the internet(trump OR clinton OR bernie) without throwing shit at each other

                                              [–]RedPillDessertNimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                              Oh didn't expect that kind of answer at all! Yeah plenty of pockets for calm discussion on sensitive topics all over Reddit once you've visited it long enough.

                                              [–]Only_Sub_RicknMortyNimble Navigator 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              I still have to wrap my mind around the fact that R/politics is just gone, it was such an amazing place(most of the time)it's really sad what Clintons paid trolls are doing to online communities

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                                                [–]letsMAGANon-Trump Supporter 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                His tax plan

                                                www.taxrate.xyz plug in your numbers and scroll to the very bottom

                                                [–]RichardRahl56Non-Trump Supporter 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                I am in strong favor of growth and prosperity for all Americans. With Trump's proposals on corporate and personal tax rates, limiting new regulations, and taking a look at and revising current regulations, and decentralizing government power, I believe that the current malaise of low growth rates and stagnant wages will be lifted and all Americans will benefit with more,and better paying jobs, more opportunity, and more prosperity. Simultaneously with his focus on enforcing the law, supporting our police, and rebuilding inner cities I believe there's a great opportunity to lift people out of their current situations in the inner cities improve job and education opportunities and reduce violent crimes.

                                                I believe his stance of building a wall and defunding sanctuary cities will send a message that the laws of the land must be followed. It will discourage illegal immigration in the future and allow the states that are the most effected by illegal immigration to take a breath and reevaluate the situation to see how to proceed from here. When you have a leaking ship the first reaction should be to plug the leak, not to ask yourself whether you'd rather have an underwater vessel. Once you plug the leak then you can go and build yourself a submarine all you like.

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