全 24 件のコメント

[–]devlsadvocate 2ポイント3ポイント  (12子コメント)

I had the exact same thought, but I do think that his philosophy has protections in it that account for this. This is merely an auxiliary effect which must be taken into account when calculating the best approach. If everyone gave as much of their money as they could to charity, then they would cripple their economy which would result in people not having money to give, so MacAskill's philosophy would advise against that approach. The thing is that while his idea is ok on paper, in reality it's so complicated to calculate the best approach, and even if you could calculate it you couldn't get people to implement it, so I felt like the only robust statement I could take from the conversation was that everyone should try harder.

[–]CraftyMuthafucka[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

I'd be interested in how MacAskill would respond to this. Taking a Singer-esque line of reasoning and applying it in the real world is pretty hardcore. So I'm not convinced he wouldn't just say "well, the bad things that would happen to developed nations aren't as bad as what is happening to the developing world."

Difficult to say.

[–]devlsadvocate 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

His approach sort of advocates increasing the well being of those who are not well off, even if it comes at a cost to our own wellbeing. I think there's an approach that can help those who are not well off, while also not hurting the wellbeing of the philanthropist, and without destroying the economy.

People in the first world do spend money and, consequently, resources, on things that don't really improve their wellbeing. Take those plastic template things for slicing bananas for example. They don't improve anybody's life, and you could just as easily slice a banana with a knife. Now, if everyone stopped buying them, maybe it would have a negative impact on factory workers in China who rely on the sale of those things for income. But what if we instead paid those workers to produce, I don't know, some kind of plastic thing that is needed in hospitals in a poor country, that would actually help people in the the poor country, it would keep the factory workers employed, and it would probably bring you more joy than a banana slicer.

The point is that we expend a lot of resources on things that don't actually make us happier or don't help us much, and we could redirect resources that are tied up in producing these things to produce something that's actually useful to poor people. That way, we're not sacrificing modern civilization, or destroying the economy or anything, and it still helps people.

[–]CraftyMuthafucka[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

I agree with all of that, but that doesn't seem to be the position that MacAskill was advocating.

You're essentially talking about making the world more efficient, spending less time on useless stuff and more time on helpful stuff. And I completely agree with that statement.

But Singer (and MacAskill) are actually arguing for much more than that. They believe it is a moral imperative that people should only purchase necessities, and give ALL of their extra money to the needy. If I remember from my Philosophy 101 days, Singer actually doesn't even own a car, and rides a bike to university to teach.

That is to say, even buying a car can be morally unjustified, at least for those who don't have an absolute need for it. And I think the bar for "need" here would be higher than most people expect.

"Needing" a car to go to work isn't an actual need if you can take the bus every day instead. That's how deep this argument goes.

[–]devlsadvocate 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

I agree, and I think that what they're arguing for is impractical and probably won't ever be widely adopted. Of course there are some people who will take it to that extreme, but not everybody.

I wonder what would happen if we managed to invent a machine, where you plug people in and they experience a virtual reality in which they experience great wellbeing and happiness, basically the best version of life anyone could imagine, and where they would be completely unaware and unable to distinguish that they were in a simulation. If we could run such a machine with a lower resource cost than living a normal life, would Singer advocate that we have a moral imperative to just plug people in?

[–]CraftyMuthafucka[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

From a completely personal standpoint, I think I would plug in and enjoy the blissful life. At least assuming that there is some way to make sure that my family isn't left to rot. Would depend how the circumstances are framed.

[–]devlsadvocate 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I would too. It's an interesting thought because many people would not, on the basis that it would be a meaningless existence, but I don't see it as being necessarily less meaningful than "real life". We could even already be in a simulation.

I think that many people would object on the basis that they wouldn't want to leave behind the people they love, but if you just plugged people in at birth then you could guarantee them a happier life than they'd otherwise have, and they would experience no downside.

[–]CraftyMuthafucka[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I was thinking that if we have the technology to make these super realistic simulations, then surely we would have a way to make them like MMO's. So our family would be in there as well presumably.

[–]keyohtee9 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

I think the answer is pretty simple. Spend as much of your money and time as you desire on philanthropy. We should have institutions that raise awareness and make this easy to do (can readily donate $ that mostly goes towards desired cause and volunteering is easy), and this sort of behaviour should generally be encouraged in society. Now how much time and money people actually spend will vary from individual to individual, as most people desire a balance between self-interest and altruism, between consumption and philanthropy. That balance is different for everyone. Singer is pursuing what he feels is optimal for him, but what is optimal for him is not optimal for most people or society at large. I think we kind of live in this system already, though I'd personally move the dial a bit more towards the altruism side.

But lack of $$ from developed world is not the root cause or limiting factor or sustainable answer to the crippling poverty you see in most of the world. For those interested in economic development (what has been done, what works, what doesn't), I'd recommend reading William Easterly, Sen, Banerjee among others. I'd recommend reading the (mis)adventures of the brilliant but somewhat naive Jeff Sachs. It will get you to understand how messy economic development is, what aid money is and isn't good for and so on.

[–]CraftyMuthafucka[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Singer is pursuing what he feels is optimal for him, but what is optimal for him is not optimal for most people or society at large.

I thought Singer took it further than this. It's not merely what is optimal for each individual. It is a moral imperative that everyone give ALL of their disposable income to the needy according to Singer.

Is this not correct?

[–]keyohtee9 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's pretty authoritarian of him. His arguments strike me as sophistry and moral narcissism that completely ignore economic reality, and misattribute the root causes and limiting factors of the problem.

[–]CraftyMuthafucka[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes, and that is a common objection to Singer. It's called the "demandingness objection."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demandingness_objection

But I think Singer can simply bite the bullet on this one and say that even though it may clash with our intuitions on what charity is or should be, it's not the job of moral philosophy to maintain each and every intuition we have.

I personally don't have a problem with it being authoritarian. If you are doing moral philosophy then you are, by definition, trying to figure out how people and societies should live. So any conclusions will seem authoritarian.

My issue with Singer is that he seems to take economic charity as the highest possible charity. But I think you could make a very good argument that most people, most of the time can do significantly more good in the world through their time and actions, rather than with money.

Merely giving money to the problem is incredibly difficult. Just take the Playpump example from the podcast. Ideas can seem brilliant, and win-win for everyone involved, and be complete failures. And no amount of money would have made Playpump a success.

The other issue I have with Singer is he hasn't extrapolated his economic argument to every aspect of his life. If you can make an argument that every extra dollar you have should be given to the needy, you could make a corollary argument that every extra second of time you have should be spent helping someone in need as well.

Does Singer enjoy his free time on the weekends, reading in a park? That is time he could be spent doing good in the world!

Of course I don't believe he actually should be doing this. But this seems to follow from his arguments about how people should use their money.

[–]keyohtee9 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Most of the crushing poverty you see in the world is not going to be fixed by altruism, but by these countries adopting economic and political systems that generally have the right incentives in place and grant people with opportunities to do something with their life. Until you have that, you are not going to break the cycle of poverty and misery in these societies. The first world can help by contributing capital, technology and ideas but everyone transferring their disposable wealth is not going to accomplish anything sustainable.

And merely having good intentions is not going to solve anything. Today, hundreds of millions of people in India are living in abject poverty because of well-intentioned socialist policies. And it wasn't until a more market-based system began to be adopted that you got the beginnings of the sort of economic development that will ultimately lift hundreds of millions out of poverty, like it has in what is now the "rich world". If you don't get at and fix the root causes, you're throwing money down a pit and doing nothing to improve the lives of future generations.

[–]CraftyMuthafucka[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The first world can help by contributing capital, technology and ideas but everyone transferring their disposable wealth is not going to accomplish anything sustainable.

I completely agree with this.

[–]Allan53 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The first world can help by contributing capital, technology and ideas but everyone transferring their disposable wealth is not going to accomplish anything sustainable.

Sure, except that some interventions have been shown to improve the economic wellbeing of people in developing countries. RCTs have suggested, for example, that recipients of unconditional cash transfers can - to a point - improve their own income flow by making strategic use of the money by buying livestock, buying iron roofs (which don't need to be repaired/replaced nearly so often), and suchforth.

Is it going to solve the problem by itself? Course not, and nobody is seriously claiming that it will. But it can improve things, and hopefully get the recipients to a point where they can improve things further on their own through the relevant economic etc reforms.

[–]thundergolfer 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm pretty confident this post belongs in r/badeconomics but I don't have the expertise to counter it effectively. Hopefully someone from their spots it and set it straight.

[–]ateafly -1ポイント0ポイント  (6子コメント)

Everyone in the restaurant industry would now be out of a job. But it's even worse than that. Anyone who might have made money designing a new menu or a new restaurant website, or creating a new ad (etc) would feel the sting as well.

I don't think it's obvious that this is bad. Economic growth purely for the sake of economic growth isn't necessarily good, it needs to produce something of value. That value competes against other things of value in this world. Imagine if someone started selling piles of shit and for some incomprehensible (to us) reason people wanted to buy it and keep it at home. Would you complain if the "shit industry" went under because people at some point stopped buying piles of shit? If people start valuing "altruistic goods" more than eating out, I see no problem with the restaurant industry going under. Advertisers and web designers would start advertising charities instead of restaurants.

I don't think technology or science will be affected as much. We already do publicly funded basic science research without any expected near-term profit, partly because of its importance for the future, as you've pointed out. We could keep funding science and technology based on consequentialist long-term cost-benefit analysis.

Another important thing you're not taking into account is that the billions of currently poor (or soon-to-be-dead) people that we save will grow the global economy much faster than the developed world can. Many new major technological developments might come from India or Africa, now that hundreds of millions of new people aren't dying of hunger or preventable diseases.

There are many consideration that will come into the equation, so I don't think it's obvious at all. I'm sure this has been already explored in the effective altruism literature.

[–]CraftyMuthafucka[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

I don't think it's obvious that this is bad. Economic growth purely for the sake of economic growth isn't necessarily good, it needs to produce something of value. That value competes against other things of value in this world.

This isn't quite right. The "value" created can simply be jobs and economic prosperity. It doesn't have to be a tangible good that society agrees is worthwhile.

If people start valuing "altruistic goods" more than eating out, I see no problem with the restaurant industry going under. Advertisers and web designers would start advertising charities instead of restaurants.

The restaurant industry was just one example. Most industries would either go under or shrink. We'd be looking at a society of historic unemployment.

I don't think technology or science will be affected as much. We already do publicly funded basic science research without any expected near-term profit, partly because of its importance for the future, as you've pointed out. We could keep funding science and technology based on consequentialist long-term cost-benefit analysis.

Where do these "public funds" come from in a society where the GDP was just cut by 90%? Public funds is just another way of saying tax dollars, and we'd have a lot less.

Another important thing you're not taking into account is that the billions of currently poor (or soon-to-be-dead) people that we save will grow the global economy much faster than the developed world can. Many new major technological developments might come from India or Africa, now that hundreds of millions of new people aren't dying of hunger or preventable diseases.

No major developments would come from India, Africa, or anywhere. The only reason the world has the computing power it has is because people want to buy increasingly powerful computers. Take away this, and you have a stagnant industry. How do companies like Intel and AMD continue to make a profit and push technology forward? They companies would collapse, and in very short order, as no one is buying their new (and unneeded) products.

I really feel like you are arguing with your hopes more than logic. Think of any single industry in the world, and you quickly realize just how devastating it would be if everyone lived like Will.

Take the auto industry. Every luxury brand is gone, and everyone who works for them. Any and all R&D advancements would be gone as well. What about Tesla? Gone. Who has the money to buy a Tesla in this world? What about cheaper manufacturers that are producing cars at a reasonable price? Many of them would still collapse. If you are truly buying only what you need, you can drive around a 20 year old car. You don't need a new car every 3-5 years. Car manufacturers would be decimated.

Sure, a handful would be able to scramble and find a way to readjust their products to meet the super low demands of a population that is purchasing only the bare necessities. But most would go under. It's just a numbers game. And this would happen across nearly every sector of the economy.

[–]ateafly 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

This isn't quite right. The "value" created can simply be jobs and economic prosperity.

So if I hire a bunch of people to dig a hole and then fill it up every day, am I creating prosperity? No, I'm wasting money that could've been used to create something of real value. The jobs I've created are useless.

The restaurant industry was just one example. Most industries would either go under or shrink. We'd be looking at a society of historic unemployment.

No one is really advocating donating most of the money of the developed world, so most industries won't have to go under. In fact the money required (until we hit diminishing returns) are a small % of the developed world's income, i.e. the vast majority of the impact would come from everyone donating something like 5-10% of their income.

No major developments would come from India, Africa, or anywhere. The only reason the world has the computing power it has is because people want to buy increasingly powerful computers. Take away this, and you have a stagnant industry. How do companies like Intel and AMD continue to make a profit and push technology forward? They companies would collapse, and in very short order, as no one is buying their new (and unneeded) products.

Lol? What about the billions of people who would be able to now afford a computer? People don't want to buy powerful computers, this is why Intel (who have a near-monopoly on processing speed) is under threat by freaking mobile phone processor companies. Intel and AMD aren't pushing processing speed as much anymore because power efficiency, size and price have become more important to us, both in the developed and the developing world. Tech companies specifically will profit enormously from economic growth in developing countries.

[–]keyohtee9 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

So if I hire a bunch of people to dig a hole and then fill it up every day, am I creating prosperity? No, I'm wasting money that could've been used to create something of real value. The jobs I've created are useless.

You realize that a market economy takes care of this problem because if you are spending all this capital to "dig holes" and then "filling them", you are incurring a cost for something no one is going to pay for, so it's not a viable enterprise. Your hypothetical is just that...a hypothetical, you don't actually see this in market-based economies for a reason. Where are these multi-billion dollar companies that sell feces or dig up a hole just to refill that hole? Actually this hole digging and filling up sort of behaviour you only really see when it is backed by the government.

And frankly, while people spend money on things I don't particularly consider valuable, I'm also not arrogant enough to think that I should get to determine what people should value and what they shouldn't. Generally, a business in market-based system is only going to be viable if it is providing something the world either needs or wants.

[–]ateafly -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

a business in market-based system is only going to be viable if it is providing something the world either needs or wants

Yes, and the effective altruism argument is about what we should value, e.g. the lives of people far away over things like eating out.

[–]CraftyMuthafucka[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That is a strawman. No one is saying eating out is more important than the lives of people far away.

Either try harder to actually understand the arguments, or take your intellectual dishonesty elsewhere. This is r/SamHarris ffs.

[–]CraftyMuthafucka[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

None of these points make very much sense to me. Did you listen to the podcast in question?