ROB VERRY
United States
Norwich
New York
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If they ever reprint the Italians, I think they should take a better look at the Italian Brixia 45mm Mortar. The mortar was very innovative for its time and was more like a modern grenade launcher (like the Russian AGS-17, or the US MK-19). It could fire both directly and indirectly. It was also able to fire at a negative elevation and while in travel mode with no special preparations. The weapon came with 10 round magazines, to spit out a remarkable 15-25 rounds p/minute. It was extremly reliable, accurate and light to carry (entire weapon/mags etc weighed less than 42 pounds) and could be portaged on the shoulders of a single soldier. The only drawback was that the round had limited firepower, but the rapid ROF often made up for this deficiency. Although the maximum range was 500m, it was used as additional fire support to infantry at ranges less than 200m (heavier calibres being dangerous at this range). I hope MMP reprints/overhauls the Italians, like they have for other armies. All I have to work with is what came in the Starter Kits (very limited). I know the Italians have a deplorable combat history in Africa, but their fighting prowess in Russia, from 1941-42 was an all together different story. Even if you are not into the Panzer Grenadier game, pick up their "Fronte Russo" CSIR Operations 1941-42 module. It is loaded with tons of equipment info, TO&E specifics and a history of their combat tour in Russia. It also has 41 scenarios which could easily be adapted to the ASL system - nice little gem!
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Eoin Corrigan
Ireland
Wexford
Wexford
ASL Fanatic
Royal Dublin Fusiliers "Spectamur Agendo"
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Thanks, Rob, that's an interesting perspective on the Brixia.
I fear that we're unlikely to see a revised depiction of the Italians in ASL when the Hollow Legions reprint occurs, but it's perhaps worth noting that some of the ASL Ost Front scenarios (such as those found in Action Pack 3) do present Italian forces capable of standing toe-to-toe with the Soviets. Plus, there are some great scenarios in that pack.
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The Brixia was an interesting and innovative light mortar. Perhaps a little bit over complex to use and rounds were said to have poor fragmentation.
From US War Department publication
"The weapon is an elaborate design, and would probably be very costly to manufacture even in mass production. Because of the complicated mechanism of the mortar, it would be subject to malfunctions and improper operation. It is reported as having a high rate of fire, is steady in action, and folds conveniently for carrying. It is understood that the mortar shell has very poor fragmentation."
http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt07/italian-45mm-mortar...
Don't know anything about its depiction in ASL but Italians had a few good weapons and this mortar was superior to Its German made equivalent.
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ROB VERRY
United States
Norwich
New York
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Yes, I have seen the ASL Italian Module for the Ost Front, but don't you need all of the counters from Hollow Legions to play? Like I said, all I have is the limited supply of Italians that came with the Starter Kits. Sad to hear there will be no reprint of the Italians. I guess I will have to contemplate selling a kidney to obtain an out-of-print copy of Hollow Legions. As for the Italian mortar, I gave it direct fire capabilities, increased the ROF to 3, deleted the B#11 and lowered the PP to 3. I will probably make up new mortar counters to reflect this. Hopefully, I can find a copy of Hollow Legions somewhere soon.
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Tyrone_Slothrop wrote: Sad to hear there will be no reprint of the Italians.
The Italians will be reprinted (together with the desert rules [Chapter F]) some day - I won't hazard to guess when it might be though.
I highly doubt any values on MMC/SW/Guns/vehicles will be altered though.
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ROB VERRY
United States
Norwich
New York
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Okay then, there goes the kidney to the highest bidder!
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Scott Clinton
United States
Texas
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Tyrone_Slothrop wrote: If they ever reprint the Italians, I think they should take a better look at the Italian Brixia 45mm Mortar... The weapon came with 10 round magazines, to spit out a remarkable 15-25 rounds p/minute. It was extremly reliable, accurate and light to carry (entire weapon/mags etc weighed less than 42 pounds) and could be portaged on the shoulders of a single soldier. The only drawback was that the round had limited firepower...nice little gem!
Well, the below is just my opinion but...
I really disagree. I have had a passing interest in this weapon for several reasons for over 4 decades and have read a bit on this piece of equipment and it is vastly over-rated by most historical gamers that take a quick look at its specifications.
Yes, it was light. Yes, it could be elevated and depressed. Just about everything else I disagree with...
Firstly, let us address the "innovative" 10-round magazine and (as some have called it) the weapon's "semi-automatic" fire capability. While it is true the CHARGE was loaded via a magazine, the round for the shot was not. This meant (basically) as one man laying prone (the only way it can be fired btw) and humping that handle back and froth to load the charges as another must be crouched over-beside him and (very) quickly (and carefully!) loading the rounds into the *base* of the mortar, in perfect timing or risk a jam (or worse). Thus (IMO) the ROF given above is bunk (but, to be fair so are most ROF values).
Now consider that another man would be required to prepare the charges and hand the new clips and charges to the loaders. That means realistically you need 3 mean to fire this light mortar worth a snot and a minimum of 2 otherwise it is going to be real slow firing.
It gained its scary reputation early in the desert war in North Africa against the British when they saw this design, after facing the effects of fire from several of these things. This was because the British light 2" mortars were very, very often dispatched individually (i.e. almost always). Not the Italians. They tended to mass their light mortars in batteries of 6 or 12 or even more sometimes. So, the British were in fact generally under fire by quite a few more Brixia's then they thought...then they capture a few and see this neato-clip-loading-idea-on-a-light-mortar and ... legend born. This was quickly debunked by the troops on the scene and is easily proven by the fact that (AFAIK) there is no evidence of any British troops ever using the vast number of these they captured (ever, and they captured quite a few early in the war).
Secondly, reliability: WHAT?!? Nothing I have ever read about this thing indicated it was at all "reliable" when compared to the British 2" or German 50mm. I have no idea where this came from.
Lastly, it was "cool". Absolutely and I have a half battery I use for skirmish myself (and on that scale they rule!) But then again all my Italian troops are cool (I think it is the chicken feathers in the hat that does it).
IMO and from what I have learned in a passing interest in this weapon for over 30 years is they are actually a bit over-powered if anything in ASL.
Found a small vid of one in use that illustrates how a single man could fire the weapon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MMhyiCTbEk
(edit: sorry I had it backwards! The charges are in the clip and the rounds are loaded manually....also added a vid to illustrate this "thing"  )
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ROB VERRY
United States
Norwich
New York
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On what level did they mass these large batteries of the mortar? Company, or battalion level? The source I have says there was only ONE mortar attached to each rifle company. Maybe the TO&E was different in Russia? So, what you are saying is that in N. Africa, they would mass these things and directly attach them to the rifle company? In any case, my source is "Front Russo: CSIR Operations 1941-1942" (A Panzer Grenadier Supplement) by Avalanche Press, Ltd., page 2. Since the Italians need all the help they can get (obviously), is my source wrong? And they actually did attach 6-12 of these mortars on a company level?! If so, show me your source, as that would be great!
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Scott Clinton
United States
Texas
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I do not have my source at the moment and seem to remember seeing this in several over the years...
But, from what I remember they were grouped at the company level in units of 6 or 12 (again, I do not remember which but I suspect 6/co).
If I can find my old hard copy prints I will post the source names.
I have no info on the TO&E of Italians in Russia (never an area of interest).
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Robin REEVE
Switzerland
St-Légier
Vaud
Looking for a game session in Switzerland? Send me a pm!
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Grumbling Grognard wrote: I do not have my source at the moment and seem to remember seeing this in several over the years...
Chapter H, Italian Ordnance note 1 has :
"The "Brixia" (its designer's name) was normally used in mortar squads of three weapons each. Three such squads formed a platoon, two of which were authorized in the SW company (compagnia armi di accompagnamento) of an infantry battalion. The battalion often assigned one or two of these squads to each of its rifle companies. In an Alpine Battalion, each company usually contained an inherent Brixia squad instead. Bersaglieri, cavalry and Libyan units were not normally authorized 45mm mortars. Some divisional 81mm mortar battalions contained a company of three Brixia platoons in lieu of one 81mm company until such time as the latter could be provided. Early in the war the Italians also received a number of ex-French 60mm mortars."
So each batallion was assigned 18 mortars.
"Often" 6 per Rifle Coy.
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Scott Clinton
United States
Texas
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That is what I was thinking (12 sounds a bit much even for the Italians) but I still have not had a chance to dig for my 20 year old hard copy notes... I seem to remember finding this when I was digging for information to make scenarios for Tobruk. So, my "info" is limited to 1939-1942(ish). I have no idea about TO&E after '42 for the Italians (one would hope they started phasing this thing out entirely...
 )
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Mark Pitcavage
United States
columbus
Ohio
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Tyrone_Slothrop wrote: On what level did they mass these large batteries of the mortar? Company, or battalion level? The source I have says there was only ONE mortar attached to each rifle company. Maybe the TO&E was different in Russia? So, what you are saying is that in N. Africa, they would mass these things and directly attach them to the rifle company? In any case, my source is "Front Russo: CSIR Operations 1941-1942" (A Panzer Grenadier Supplement) by Avalanche Press, Ltd., page 2. Since the Italians need all the help they can get (obviously), is my source wrong? And they actually did attach 6-12 of these mortars on a company level?! If so, show me your source, as that would be great!
A wargame is NOT a source.
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ROB VERRY
United States
Norwich
New York
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Geeze, okay, okay. I was simply stating the source of my info.
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BattleSchool Managing Editor
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
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It might be fun to add the Brixia mortar variant of the CV35 (L3/35) to the Italian OB (i.e. Chapter H). I don't imagine that it was much rarer than the AA configuration, or the FT variant.
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ROB VERRY
United States
Norwich
New York
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Whoa! That's cool. I'm going to arm mine with the Brixia!
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ROB VERRY
United States
Norwich
New York
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Quick question: Does the AFV crew need to be 'CE' to fire the mounted Brixia?
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Stephen Rynerson
United States
Denver
Colorado
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Tyrone_Slothrop wrote: Quick question: Does the AFV crew need to be 'CE' to fire the mounted Brixia?
Looks like they would probably indeed have to be CE given where the mortar is mounted in that picture. Compare it with this picture of a clearly CE crew in a more conventional CV35 model:
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ROB VERRY
United States
Norwich
New York
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Oh yes indeed, the would need to be CE. I didn't realize how small these tin-cans really were until seeing this pic - Thanks for sharing.
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