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Rampant Islamophobia in /r/Feminism following Burkini ban, top moderator promises to ban anyone who defends Islam or Muslim women's rights (self.AgainstHateSubreddits)

Finnegan482 が 投稿

In a thread about the Burkini ban in France, the top moderator of /r/feminism has promised to ban any person who defends Islam:

No endorsement of regressive ideologies [like Islam] is permitted; as the sticky thread mentions, this is a zero-tolerance policy. (link)

The top mod, demmian, identifies as a "transnational feminist". However, let's take a look at their comment history within /r/feminism and /r/AskFeminism.

For starters, they certainly like to refer to Islam as a "regressive ideology"

Of course, there is another Orthodox moron that backed [this Russian Muslim official]. Expect regressive ideologies to bunch up together (link)

...and again

If one's system of belief does not endorse the abhorrence of Islam (or any other regressive religion) then they should not provide their support by taking that label. (link)

Apparently defending women's right to wear hijabs is also "regressive"

I find the hijab misogynistic as fuck, and I deplore that an actual "regressive left", that defends this practice, exists in fact (link)

...and comparable to defending the KKK and the Nazis:

Meh. Are you going to defend the right to cloth in any manner, even when it comes to KKK/nazi paraphernalia? What an enlightened view /s (link)

Hijabs should be banned, or else people might start performing human sacrifices:

We can see the abhorrence of human sacrifices from certain cultures, even if we find out only from wikipedias or academic sources - that seems to be enough to put people off about them. If people are weak enough to become likelier followers of such ideologies just because they are banned, then they were already weak enough to become their followers anyway. (link)

I discovered all this the hard way. How, you ask? Well, I had the audacity to point out that forcing Muslims to adopt "Western values" is problematic:

Except [the Muslim community] is not presenting unique obstacles [to gender equality in our community as a whole]. They are, however, under unique levels of hypervisibility in the West. This talk about "[migrants needing to] respect our values" is transparently neocolonial and actively oppressive towards Muslim women. It's completely unintersectional feminism. (link)

This, apparently, was enough to warrant an instant ban for "endorsing regressive agendas":

http://i.imgur.com/m3Cu7q2

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[–]potentialhijabi1 111ポイント112ポイント  (82子コメント)

sigh

Burkini owner and hijab wearer here. I find this whole palaver over hijab so ridiculously hypocritical and biased its unreal. These sorts are the first to bang on about women's choice to do/wear/say whatever the blazes they want, and seem to think it's a one-way street that whilst a women can choose to wear a short skirt, they can't equally choose, all by themselves, to wear a hijab.

Know why I have a Burkini? Because shock horror I want to do stuff like go in a swimming pool or go to the beach like anyone else, and wearing a burkini means I can do so whilst respecting my religious beliefs. It doesn't have to be an either/or situation.

[–]mizmoose 20ポイント21ポイント  (2子コメント)

There's a belief that all Muslim women are "forced" to wear a hijab or more covering headwear.

Yet nobody comes after the Jewish women who are "forced" to never wear pants, skirts past the knees, and long-sleeved shirts. Oh-- and if married, they must cover their hair.

Gee, I guess it's not the same because it doesn't wrap all the way around the head. Unless it does.

[–]smackthelight 17ポイント18ポイント  (15子コメント)

I really want to be civil as possible.

How can be pro-equality while believing that your God requires your body to be treated differently to a mans body?

[–]Blackbeard_ 24ポイント25ポイント  (6子コメント)

So does Western culture. Why do women wear bikinis and not men? Why is it generally less a big deal for men to go topless than women? Why don't men wear high heels? Why do men and women compete in separate sports leagues? Why is there issue with women joining frontline combat units?

Western culture doesn't treat their bodies as equal either. Is there an example of a human culture where they're treated equally?

[–]Gruzman 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

So does Western culture. Why do women wear bikinis and not men? Why is it generally less a big deal for men to go topless than women? Why don't men wear high heels? Why do men and women compete in separate sports leagues? Why is there issue with women joining frontline combat units?

Western culture doesn't treat their bodies as equal either. Is there an example of a human culture where they're treated equally?

But what does that have to do with a religious mandate to be modest (arguably suppression in itself) and moreso with how different genders are expected to be modest per a specific religious teaching?

You can easily discount the "inequality" of separate sports leagues and forms of "immodest" or sexualizing dress by saying that human beings are unequally strong and unequally sexually attracted to one another by their nature. It's not actually an arbitrary cultural thing like much of religion can be shown to be.

At the very best, your argument is just "but everyone else is doing it, too!"

[–]makethemhearyou_ 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

These are still just aspects of sexism though.

[–]KnightModern 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

actually there are "modest" requirement for men

they're wayyy less enforced with less consequence because of patriarchal society, but sure you will see some of it like hairstyle and piercing and beard

[–]DanglyW 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

I appreciate your point, but strongly urge you to provide an example of a culture/outlook that actually factually promotes total equality.

Your point isn't invalid, it just probably doesn't recognize it's own bias.

[–]mizmoose 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

A lot of religions require a woman's body to be treated differently than a man's body.

[–]potentialhijabi1 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

That isn't what Islam teaches, at least not to my understanding. The Quran specifically mandates that men and women are, before God, spiritually equal and receive the same rewards from God for the same deeds, thoughts and words. However in terms of our physical lives here on earth, men and women have different but complementary roles, with different expectations. This is not however a sign that one gender is 'inferior' to the other.

With regard to modesty, this is actually a command to both men and women, and there is at least one verse I'm thinking of (no Quran to hand) where men are specifically mentioned first. However again the exact command to modest according to the Quran and Sunnah differ according to the different genders, but again this isn't any way a designation of superiority of men.

[–]Aethelric 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

So you believe that Islam is completely non-patriarchal?

[–]The_Rocktopus 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

No more than Christianity or Judaism.

[–]Aethelric -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Of course! Patriarchy is baked into all of the Abrahamic religions. You'll notice that I asked that specific person a question, however, and that you cannot speak for them.

[–]qdobe 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

I honestly thought that they should ban the religious requirement to wear a burkini or a full hijab rather than banning people's individual choice to wear one. We would think it is despicable if a middle eastern country banned the wearing of a crucifix, so I don't understand why people can't see why this is still oppressive.

[–]Manai 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Because it is an "other". While what they are accustomed to, what they believe in, is proper and acceptable and so, they are unable to step back and take a 3rd person perspective on the issue. Their culture/way of thought is only one that must be right. Anything that challenges it must be unacceptable.

[–]qdobe 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

They think the constitution only protects their way of life.

But surely it is not meant to protect the religious and civil rights and choices of a Muslim American who is not white. /s

[–]Finnegan482[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

What do you mean "ban the religious requirement"? There is no religious requirement. This is what some women are choosing to wear. They're not being forced to. You can't ban that without banning choice entirely, which is the whole problem.

[–]Mustaka -3ポイント-2ポイント  (12子コメント)

Its not so much about your right to chose but more what your choice represents to other people. Islam in no way about gender equality which feminists kinda take to heart. Well their version of equality I suppose.

You need to understand that although most people support your right to wear whatever the fuck you like that the burkini is a modern thing and in itself is a symbol of nothing but what it is. If I chose to have a swastika tattooed on my forehead you would think certain things of me because of the symbol I had chosen and what it represents to others.

So wear whatever you like. But just understand that your burkini is nothing more than a symbol and a very judgemental one at that.

[–]potentialhijabi1 7ポイント8ポイント  (11子コメント)

I cannot understand why wearing the Burkini is treated as somehow being different to if I was wearing a wetsuit, tankini or any type of swimwear more covering than the typical swimwear.

As for your swastika example, whilst I may think certain things of you, it would not actively prevent me from treating you with civility. I would certainly not use my personal opinion of the swastika to justify discrimination or prevent you from doing whatever. Plus you might be a Hindu or Jain for all I know.

[–]Mustaka -1ポイント0ポイント  (10子コメント)

I cannot understand why wearing the Burkini is treated as somehow being different

You fully understand why it is different. You are making a statement you are modest and other women who are not wearing one are harem and shamefull. Symbols have meaning. Like you pointed out the swastika may mean different things to differdnt people depending on what culture. The burkini is a very modern islamic construct with zero foundation in the koran and is simply a statement by the wearer and nothing more.

But like I said before. You can wear what you like and people like me will fight and have fought to protect all our rights. But if you do not understand what the burkini stands for you are either deluded or willfully ignorant. To either I have nothing to offer.

[–]potentialhijabi1 9ポイント10ポイント  (9子コメント)

I personally couldn't give a flying toss if some women choose, for whatever reason, to not wear what I wear, and I'm not judging them personally, just making a decision as to what *I personally want to wear. I assume that a significant number of other burkini wearers are of the same opinion. By this ridiculous logic, anyone who wears any sort of religious clothing, or even any form of clothing which differentiates them from others, is judging others, and I don't think anyone thinks that.

Plus my point still remains- your opinion of something does not give you a right to discriminate or prevent me or anyone from participating willingly in it.

[–]Mustaka -3ポイント-2ポイント  (8子コメント)

By this ridiculous logic

Religion has no logic. None. Totally devoid of it.

to discriminate or prevent me or anyone from participating willingly in it

And your crux of your argument is discrimination. Seriously? Reading your post history you are a professional British born muslim victim. Your reddit username points it out.

I personally couldn't give a flying toss if some women choose, for whatever reason, to not wear what I wear,

For whatever reason is your personal judgement by wearing the symbol you do. Your words. Your chosen ignorance and a blindingly perfect example of my point. If islam told you the world was flat you are the kind of person who would make yourself some kind of victim when proven wrong. Logic is not a meaningful word in your life. Wear your birkini. Until you can point out where in the koran it says you must wear one, especially over a wetsuit your only corner is no logic and professional muslim reddit karma whore.

[–]LaoTzusGymShoes 5ポイント6ポイント  (5子コメント)

Religion has no logic. None. Totally devoid of it.

Gettin' a little euphoric there, ain'tcha?

[–]Mustaka 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

By all means point out to the whole entire world some religious logic.

[–]LaoTzusGymShoes 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

Aquinas?

Are you like, at all familiar with philosophy of religion? Cause there's kind of a lot been written about it.

[–]Mustaka -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

I am very fluent. My questions stands. I would love to hear your logic though.

[–]potentialhijabi1 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Actually my Reddit username was intended to be a throwaway. I kept using the account through.

As for the point about the flat earth, this is blatantly false and smacks of cheap ad hominem. If you can't think of a better argument than that, then we're finished. You're blatantly missing the point of what I'm trying to say and I strongly suspect that you are willingly ignorant. Lucky for me, the Quran warns me of people like you who stick their fingers in their ears and won't listen.

As to the comments about me being a professional victim or whatever, this is again just a cheap insult. Plus do you seriously think I want the intimidation, the threats, the things thrown at me in my own streets, the attempts at physical violence against me which I've had to deal with? You're not the person who, in front of at least 100 people (who all did nothing) was grabbed at by a random man and threatened to be beheaded. You're not the person who had some teenage boys try and set their clothes on fire because they took a dislike for whatever reason. You're not the person who was threatened with rape and assault by a gang of far-right idiots during the course of a peaceful protest. You have no right to tell me anything about the problems I face. None whatsoever.

[–]Mustaka -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Lucky for me, the Quran warns me of people like you who stick their fingers in their ears and won't listen.

And there you go once again. Which part of the quran? Shall I quote them or are havein even read it?

Plus do you seriously think I want the intimidation, the threats, the things thrown at me in my own streets,

I live on the same streets you do. Never once have I seen the bullshit you claim to be a victim of. Not even a remote hint of it.

You're not the person who was threatened with rape and assault by a gang of far-right idiots during the course of a peaceful protest.

A maybe 9 or 10 year old boy I personally pulled out in Basra who was getting raped muliple times a day was done in the name of Islam. Dont you fucking dare pretend you are a victim of anything close to what he went through, for years.

You are nothing more than a liar liar pants on fire.

[–]LIATG 44ポイント45ポイント  (4子コメント)

/r/FemmeThoughts is a good alternative, and /r/AskFemmeThoughts is a good alternative to /r/AskFeminism. /r/feminism has had these kinds of issues for a while

[–]Rakonas 43ポイント44ポイント  (42子コメント)

Dear god liberal feminism is disgusting. I'm so used to proletarian and good intersectional feminism that I wouldn't even believe shit like this exists, but a mod of /r/feminism banning people for actually being feminists? What the fuck.

[–]Urdnot_Vex 67ポイント68ポイント  (22子コメント)

The mod uses the term "regressive left". Liberal is not a label I'd apply to them.

[–]Rakonas 33ポイント34ポイント  (19子コメント)

Liberal feminism refers to "feminism" that's exclusively for white women or rich women or whatever. Like Caitlyn Jenner would be a liberal feminist for saying that it's okay to be trans so long as you don't look like a guy in a dress, as if the average person can remotely afford all of the treatment needed to transition.

[–]Urdnot_Vex 17ポイント18ポイント  (17子コメント)

Honestly curious, why is that labeled as "liberal feminism" when the attitude is anything but?

[–]Rakonas 23ポイント24ポイント  (0子コメント)

People often call it white feminism if you'd prefer. The liberal refers to shitty liberal attitudes that are tied into the line of thinking, and generally seen as the reason someone can take feminism and totally miss the point about intersectionality once it stops benefiting them. Like "I love weed but fuck poor people" and "Sweatshops are liberating!" and such shit tied into belief in markets being ethical aka: liberalism as it would be defined outside of America/ earlier than the mid-20th century.

[–]pink_gabriel 6ポイント7ポイント  (4子コメント)

The short answer is that it's not; as the user to whom you replied goes on to explain, it is also called "White Feminism." That's the term that I've heard used as a shorthand for non-intersectional feminism. It's especially appropriate for islamaphobic people, who are more racist than they realize.

Not entirely coincidentally, as someone who has encountered this discourse in formal academic settings, I have never heard a critique of "liberal feminism" from someone who wasn't a redditor.

[–]Rakonas -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

I don't really like the term "White feminism" because it implies only white people can be bad feminists. Obviously there are non-white feminists who are islamophobic, or hate trans people, or don't care about poor women's struggles, etc.

[–]pink_gabriel 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I don't know why you'd draw the line there; you used "Liberal Feminism" despite the fact that people who aren't liberals can also be bad feminists.

"White Feminism" is usually the preferred term for a handful of reasons. First, it observes the historical way in which bad feminists have centered the movement around the issues of white women and made the movement less inclusive as a result, but secondly and just as importantly, it's not hard to understand. "Liberal Feminism" is confusing because of the confusion around the word "liberal" -- which you yourself have observed -- and that makes it hard to use smoothly. If we're being descriptive, then "liberal" does in some capacity mean "progressive" to a lot of people (especially since "libertarian" is now more often used to denote the political stylings of classic liberalism's stances on property and government). In my experience, "White Feminism" is rarely misunderstood by anyone who isn't a white person feeling targeted by the criticisms of power structures that enshrine their privilege, but that's a near inevitable feature of all conversations with those people anyway.

I'd be interested in seeing phrases like "Liberal Feminism" take root, but they're far from popular and certainly not without controversy, and so being an aspiring descriptivist I'll pass and stick to the terms I know already exist in this discussion.

[–]Rakonas 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Liberal feminism seems to be the preferred term among people who are explicitly anti-capitalist, so I'm going to continue using it. You have good points but I think more people would be confused about calling, for example, Beyonce a white feminist than a liberal feminist.

[–]Mamothamon 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

Because in the far left (socialism/communism/anarchism) liberal is everything that is not far letf, or anything that is bourgeois, or anything that you dont like, or anything....

Is the "cuck" of the left.

[–]Meedina 25ポイント26ポイント  (4子コメント)

Not really... it's just that americans have a different version of the term liberal because their political spectrum use "liberals and conservative" to mean "social liberalism and economical liberalism".
If you ask an european what political figures does the term "liberal" evoque he will probably tell you conservative politicians. In my country the liberals are the right wingers "Les Républicains".

Now the left call a lot of people "liberals" and it certainly confuses north-americans that's because the left use the true definition of "liberal". Which an ideology that date back from the enlightenments and aim the enhance the freedom of the individual and it that freedom of individual lies private property.
When I say "private property" I do not mean all property, there's a difference between private property and personal property for example a toothbrush factory is private property while a toothbrush itself is personal property the difference is weither or not you can extract other's plus-value and make a profit with it.

And as private property of the means of production is a necessarcy condition of capitalism this is why leftists oppose it. A liberal can mean anyone from Bernie Sanders to Ayn Rand.

[–]TorbjornOskarsson 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Liberal means something very different outside of america.

[–]greenrd 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

My understanding is this was originally a distinction made by those on the left - i.e. liberal feminists, who see feminism as merely about enshrining equal rights and fairness in law, were contrasted with socialist, anarchist and social democrat feminists who see the need for activism and/or structural changes to truly achieve equality. Wikipedia might shed some light. I guess the meaning might have shifted. I was not aware that liberal feminist mean "not intersectional".

[–]ListenAndBelieve 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is pretty much liberal-feminism. Intersectional-Feminism is what you're looking for if you want feminism that embraces Islam, denounces TERFs, avoids 'egalitarianism' etc.

[–]andrewisgood 19ポイント20ポイント  (0子コメント)

I actually was banned from there and it did involve something with Islam but not about Islam per se. I actually forget the topic, but posters were banned and had stuff deleted and I said the actual discussion would be better to have as people weren't just trolling their opinions or brigading. I was swiftly banned for such shenanigans.

Even /r/atheism is pissed about this stuff for the most part. You get a free random jerks here and there, but it's a free speech issue, like, a real honest to goodness free speech issue and not people crying free speech because some schmuck got banned from twitter. People are angry that people's rights are violated, regardless of their religion and this schmuck on /r/feminism has no idea what it means to be free and what it means to actually be regressive.

[–]Anonymocoso 11ポイント12ポイント  (4子コメント)

Mormon women have to follow a less - obvious but rigorously enforced dress code and everyone loses their minds.

[–]dinobot100 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

People always say this, but the male temple garment has longer sleeves and a higher neckline. I absolutely do not understand how people think this modesty is an anti-woman thing. My wife can wear shirts that don't show her garment that (if they were in my size) would never work for me because of my longer sleeves! But I guess it's just easy to say "modesty represses women!" and not really think about the fact that they are asked to be slightly less modest than the men.

Source: Am very happily LDS, and I wear garments daily.

Clarification: I'm absolutely not complaining about garments. I view them as a blessing.

[–]Anonymocoso 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Most of my coworkers and neighbors also view garments as a blessing.

There's a subreddit where the Redditors don't share this opinion, though. There are self posts about women being "policed" for garments or receiving grief for tank tops.

We are allowed to call Mormons Patriarchal and Misogynists or Brainwashed on the subject of what they wear.

There's another Abrahamic faith whose adherents see clothing as a matter of faith. If you criticize this faith, you're banned for racism.

[–]IstheLieReallyaCake 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

Religion is a tool of the patriarchy to oppress women, to be honest. I'm surprised that we're so supposed to be positive about hijabs. I'll defend your right to wear them, but I'll still criticize them.

[–]archiesteel 14ポイント15ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'll defend your right to wear them, but I'll still criticize them.

The point is that you would be banned from /r/feminism for saying this, apparently.

[–]IstheLieReallyaCake 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ooohhh, okay! There's no excuse for that, then.

[–]The_R4ke 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

I got banned from there, and I still have no Idea what it was about. I asked the mods a couple of times and never got a reply, still banned though. After reading this I realized I'm not missing out on much.

[–]KingPellinore 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I was banned from /r/feminism a while back. I still have no idea why. Demmian is...weird.

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Snapshots:

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[–]zisyfos 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think someone should do a hidden camera recording of a woman wearing a full wet suit on a beach where they have a burkini ban and see what people do. Then if she is asked to take it off, she should - exposing her naked. It would be fun to see the reactions of people then! :)

[–]xxjosephchristxx 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I got banned for something very similar years ago, disappointed to see it hasn't gotten better.

[–]RegressToTheMean 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

ITT: People offering reasonable and thoughtful counter positions that actually encourage interesting conversation and being downvoted to oblivion.

Never change Reddit...