712 replies to this topic

[das attorney]

Not wanting to open a can of worms here, but that is simply not true. See Iron Front. See OFP: Red Hammer. Just because a common soldier is "on the bad side" doesn't mean he's a bad guy. If you want to consider morality, you should also know that war crimes are committed by each and every country in a war.

 

Not so much about morality but I always enjoyed playing as Germans more in WW2 games, mainly due to the equipment - they simply had the best stuff imo (with the questionable exception of a couple of aircraft maybe but that's another story).  

 

There's something about MP40's, MG34's, Stukas, Tigers, U-Boats and those cool half-tracks that fires up the imagination in a way that allied equipment never can for me.  Even their grenades were interesting, plus uniforms from Hugo Boss.

 

The attraction of playing as the British/Americans/Russians is a notion wasted on me.  "Bren-Gun-Carrier Commander" anyone?  

[Alwarren]

But in games, you usually play the heroic guy that starts out a hero and ends a hero. Or, as in Apex, starts without identity and ends without identity.

 

Take "Spec Ops: The Line" as an example of a game that explores the concepts of good and evil, and that's even one were you do play "the good guys". Seriously, I'd love to see a game where you play on the side of the bad guys and get to see how a normal person descents into committing evil acts, and see if you can climb out of that pit. It's certainly more interesting than the usual stuff where "drama" is measured by the number of "fuck" per minute said in dialogs.

[froggyluv]

Not so much about morality but I always enjoyed playing as Germans more in WW2 games, mainly due to the equipment - they simply had the best stuff imo (with the questionable exception of a couple of aircraft maybe but that's another story).  

 

There's something about MP40's, MG34's, Stukas, Tigers, U-Boats and those cool half-tracks that fires up the imagination in a way that allied equipment never can for me.  Even their grenades were interesting, plus uniforms from Hugo Boss.

 

The attraction of playing as the British/Americans/Russians is a notion wasted on me.  "Bren-Gun-Carrier Commander" anyone?  

 

 I absolutely agree and shamefully have to hide the screen when my Israeli born wife walks in the room. Evil notGlorious basterds but damn their equipment, look was pretty badass. It just feels like so much sexy metal..

 

Edit: actually i feel bad and then realise she has no idea what im doing so just tell her "Killin Nazis"

[das attorney]

Ha yes I can see that could be awkward!

 

That said, some men in the Wehrmacht and other branches, were professional soldiers and ready to do their duty, a lot were average shmoes off the street just trying to get by and then there were the really bad ones who came out of the woodwork and really got into their grim work.

 

I guess that goes for any military though, back then or now.  As Doug Stanhope says :

 

"As long as the people who kinda wanna go kill other people are going to go kill other people who kinda wanna go kill other people, you're killing all the right people and opening up all the best parking spaces."

[IndeedPete]

Well, I think a lot of people confuse the paramilitary Waffen SS, which committed most of the crimes against Jews and ran the concentration camps, with the Wehrmacht (German Army) which basically did all that regular war stuff. I'm not trying to defend anyone's actions but there were a few shades of grey, even within the German forces at that time. Shades that could actually be very useful for a good storytelling. Unfortunately, this is still a very sensitive topic and thus games either put you in the boots of allied soldiers and/or apply a decent amount of satire, like Wolfenstein for example.

 

Still, I'd also love to see more controversial stories being covered in games. Or in Arma in particular. It doesn't have to be Nazis vs. Allies, fictional CSAT vs. NATO in the near future is fine. It's just that Arma's content feels very clean and straightforward. Harvest Red had at least some of these chilling moments with the raped woman, the massgrave, or the murdered American soldiers at Manhatten. Sadly, Arma 3 is completely free of any of these more touching moments. Even the AAF killing unarmed FIA in the Bootcamp campaign was no match in terms of atmosphere.

[R3vo]

Sadly, Arma 3 is completely free of any of these more touching moments. Even the AAF killing unarmed FIA in the Bootcamp campaign was no match in terms of atmosphere.

 

 

There was a really good user made campaign which was about two brothers of which one died at the end. I don't know the name anymore and don't wanna spoiler anyway. But that campaign felt like it had some meaning.

[cosmic10r]

Agree with what has been said...

Impossible to paint all the participants in any war with one brush...

The Charles brown /Franz Stigler incident shows that in many cases... things were never as cut and dry as they seem and many in the German army were honorable people doing a task that in some cases they did not even agree with...

Love that story... interestingly the two became friends and ultimately died, 6 months apart in 2008 in North America after many years of friendship

A quick link to the story for anyone interested... never fails to move me
http://www.dailymail...e-chivalry.html

[das attorney]

Well, I think a lot of people confuse the paramilitary Waffen SS, which committed most of the crimes against Jews and ran the concentration camps, with the Wehrmacht (German Army) which basically did all that regular war stuff. I'm not trying to defend anyone's actions but there were a few shades of grey, even within the German forces at that time. Shades that could actually be very useful for a good storytelling. Unfortunately, this is still a very sensitive topic and thus games either put you in the boots of allied soldiers and/or apply a decent amount of satire, like Wolfenstein for example.

 

Still, I'd also love to see more controversial stories being covered in games. Or in Arma in particular. It doesn't have to be Nazis vs. Allies, fictional CSAT vs. NATO in the near future is fine. It's just that Arma's content feels very clean and straightforward. Harvest Red had at least some of these chilling moments with the raped woman, the massgrave, or the murdered American soldiers at Manhatten. Sadly, Arma 3 is completely free of any of these more touching moments. Even the AAF killing unarmed FIA in the Bootcamp campaign was no match in terms of atmosphere.

 

 

Yeah I think the characters make the game, and when I played the Arma 3 campaigns it felt like the characters are all snarky and wisecracking, much like teen-gamers are, and it felt much removed from how you would expect people to talk when under pressure.  Plus they didn't seem to have any sort of life of their own - like they didn't have any interests or opinions on things that weren't directly linked to the plot of the game.

 

Good point there IP about shades of grey.  It reminds me of the film "Platoon", where really it could have been set in ancient Rome or WW1 or anywhere; as it was less about the story of Vietnam and more about Good vs Evil  (Elias/Barnes) and how Sheens character reacts to their struggle around him.

[wiki]

Not wanting to open a can of worms here, but that is simply not true. See Iron Front. See OFP: Red Hammer. Just because a common soldier is "on the bad side" doesn't mean he's a bad guy. If you want to consider morality, you should also know that war crimes are committed by each and every country in a war.

 

Yes, but in Red Hammer, he eventually turns good.

 

What I mean is a game in which we do play, from the beginning to the end, a bad guy / someone fighting for the "wrong side".

 

Of course it can be done, but I think many people will consider it as a bad move.

Imagine a game in which you play as a Wehrmacht soldier from the invasion of Poland, then join the SS until the fall of the Reichstag?

Of course, with all the horrors that happen (with mission objectives such as "gather all the civilians in the building and burn it").

 

For example, look how the mission "no russian" in CoD MW2 was considered.

 

Or a game in which you play a Syrian soldier who defects then join isis.

 

Even though these would be "only games", there would still be a morality issue.

[das attorney]

Yes, but in Red Hammer, he eventually turns good.

 

What I mean is a game in which we do play, from the beginning to the end, a bad guy / someone fighting for the "wrong side".

 

Of course it can be done, but I think many people will consider it as a bad move.

 

 

 

I see it differently because I believe it is the job of the storyteller to get the player/viewer/reader into the life of the protagonist.  If they can do that then it doesn't matter whether you are idealogically opposed to what they are doing or not.

 

Look at the novel "American Psycho" for example - the main character is totally unhinged and his actions are frankly repulsive, but the story is told in such a way that you end up warming to him and wanting to know what makes him tick.  I'd definitely play a game that has even 10% of the character involvement that novel has.

 

Anyway, it's escapism and it's good to explore the darker side of our personalities, so having the option of doing some sort of unwholesome military campaign that would upset Daily Mail readers can be fun once in a while.

[IndeedPete]

Anyway, it's escapism and it's good to explore the darker side of our personalities, so having the option of doing some sort of unwholesome military campaign that would upset Daily Mail readers can be fun once in a while.

 

And that's why we will probably not see any official content in that regard. Too risky, too costly, not worth putting up with the always-offended.

[das attorney]

True, but hopefully user created content can bring some depth to that side of things.

[dragon01]

I'd rather have a war in which the "good guys" are on both sides. IRL, that's how it usually plays out in symmetrical or near-symmetric warfare. Soldiers are, for most part, decent people. Conscripts can be louts if draft dodging is common in their country (as they will end up drafting those too stupid to dodge), but most professional soldiers and especially elites are just regular people who want to fight for their country. Just look at Russians in Crimea, for example, they were nothing if not polite. I think that this has a lot of potential for being played for tragedy, but for some reason, the only war for which it seems to ever come into play is WWI.

 

The thing with games which allow you to be a bastard is that they should also allow you not to be. Even Spec Ops: The Line does that, to a limited extent. In Wiki's example above, you may have an objective such as "Gather all civilians in a building and burn it", but there should be nothing preventing you from leaving the back door open. A game definitely shouldn't force the player to be a bad person, but it can have such an option (many games that do that even call you out for it later).