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[–]alriclofgarPost-Roman Britain | Late Antiquity 3ポイント4ポイント  (33子コメント)

This is a surprisingly tricky question to answer; we have no direct soirces for the experience of fighting in the early medieval west (unlike earlier or later, when people recorded details of battles in texts), and we don't even have artistic depictions of battles from which to reconstruct things like the shield wall. So we're left relying on archaeology, which can tell us a lot, but not as directly as we might prefer.

The principle source of evidence we have about fighting in early sixth-century England are the weapons buried in people's graves. The most common are spears (90% of graves) and shields, with swords being much, much rarer. Interpreting grave goods can be tricky - do the proportions we find in the ground mirror the proportion of weapons used in real life (ie, spears were far more common than swords)? Or were people more likely to bury spears than other weapons for social / symbolic reasons, even though they fought with a much greater variety of weapons? Rather than speculate from a lack of evidence, I personally prefer to go with what we know, and assume that spears were, indeed, the most common choice. This fits with other things we know about sixth-century society: swords require better quality iron than was typically available in the century after the breakdown of the Roman-British economy, and were as a consequence certainly much more valuable, and probably more rare, than comparatively easy-to-make spearheads. From a purely functional perspective as well, the spears that were used in the early sixth century were lighter, more nimble, and better suited for the fast, fluid kind of fighting you might expect to encounter during a cattle raid or border skirmish than the heavy, unbalanced swords we've recovered from contemporary graves (which is not to say that people could not receive devastating wounds from swords - we have examples of truly nasty sword cuts in some persons' graves).

Shields, in this half of the sixth century, seem to have been very small, on the order of 60cm or less in diameter. It's not always easy to determine the precise size of shields in the grave, as the wooden boards rarely leave any traces in British soil, but there are sometimes metal fittings on the edges that show the full diameter of the shield. The pattern is smaller shields in the late fifth century, and large (90ish cm) shields by the seventh, and people buried with weapons circa 500 would be likely to have something toward the smaller end of that range.

These shields could not have been used in a shield wall; they weren't large enough to cover a fighter's upper body or to overlap with one's neighbor. They would have had to be used like later medieval bucklers, as an active rather than passive defense, and suggest that their owners were probably fighting in loose, open skirmishes (again, think rapid cattle raiding, or else small-scale personal defense) rather than organized, close formations like the hoplite phalanx. By the seventh century, we see shields in the ground that would work well in a shield wall, and this perhaps indicates a change in the scale of warfare. But if the weapons we find in early sixth-century graves are an accurate representation of what the living used (a big if, but again: this is all the evidence we have to work from), combat must have been loose and fluid rather than in close ranks. Perhaps, indeed, war involved honor duels and single combat; Guy Halsall has noted that warfare is usually ritualized, and the small shields we find in people's graves would lend themselves well to a kind of fighting that emphasized scripted single combat over massed confrontations.

What about javelins? Most of the spears we find from early sixth-century graves are of a size and shape that would work equally well as a hand-held weapon or a javelin, and I personally hesitate to insist that they be one or the other. It's likely that many weapons were used as both. Occasionally we find a barbed dart which was almost certainly a specialized javelin (perhaps used to pierce and encumber an opponent's shield, like the Roman pilum from which it evolved), but these are comparatively rare in England compared eith the continent. More typically, spearheads from this period had 20-30cm long spearheads with 10-20cm long blades, often this shape, and sometimes with a corrugated or fullered profile to increase stiffness while reducing weight. Spear shafts were narrow (usually c. 2cm), light weight, and about 1.5-2m long. These kinds of spears are easy to throw, and can be incredibly light and nimble in the hand. They're versatile tools.

If we look at weapon injuries on bodies in graves, we get a slightly different picture. The most common wounds are sword cuts to the skull, usually to the front or side of the head (as you'd receive from an opponent in front of you). Spear injuries are comparatively rare. However, this evidence is hampered by poor skeletal preservation: skulls survive better than many other bones, and swords leave wounds that are easier to identify than spear thrusts. So I hesistate to treat this evidence as in any way relresentational, except to say that it shows how nasty a sword cut can be when it connects with a skull.

Finally, I would hesitate to rule out fighting from horseback. It's an old chestnut that Anglo-Saxons always dismounted before figting, but there's no real evidence on which to base this. Horses were sometimes buried in high-status 'warrior' graves from the early sixth century, and there's no reason to believe these animals were purely for transport.


For further reading, I would recommend starting with Guy Halsall's book Warfare and Society, which provides an excellent overview of the social context of warfare between c. 450-800 CE.

If you have specific questions about anything I've written above, I'm happy to follow up. Most of it is drawn from my own personal research, but I can point you toward archaeological resources to go deeper on your own.

(Edit: corrected a measurement from inches to cm)

[–]TheCrendraven[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

Thanks for the reply.

We know swords were common now. The staffordshire hoard alone had some 100 swords, which is an entire army.

The horses were buried for religious reasons. They were thought to be needed in the afterlife in Helheim.

[–]alriclofgarPost-Roman Britain | Late Antiquity 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

The Staffordshire hoard dates to the seventh century, at least 150 years after 500. By then, a lot had changed in warfare, politics, and economics: England was organized into larger kingdoms, and the weaponry available, burial practices, and evidence from settlements all suggest a world in which violence was happening on a different scale. By then, a battle where 80 swords could be captured is much more likely. And importantly, Britain's iron production economy had significantly changed: better iron was being imported from the continent, and specialized production centers had begun to appear which were more capable of turning out high-quality products like the pattern welded blades which must have originally accompanied the pommels found in the hoard. So certainly, there are a fair number of swords in the mid-late seventh century (though we don't know what proportion of the defeated army carried them - if each side were 1000 men instead of 100, we get a very different picture, potentially), but that does not reflect the different cirumstances 150 years earlier.

As far as horse burial goes, regardless of the reason for the sacrifices (which we can only theorize, as the earliest texts describing Northern European beliefs in a pre-Christian afterlife come from much later and further afield), many were buried with harness for riding. There is certainly a religious or social reason for killing horses - and weapons - and including them in graves, but that doesn't preclude their role in battle before this untimely end. See the Lakenheath warrior, for example, who was buried with weapons and a finely outfitted horse. There's no indication in his grave that this animal, and other like it, would not have been ridden into battle.

[–]TheCrendraven[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Absence of evidence is not evidence.

[–]TheCrendraven[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

King Raedwald's burial ship at Sutton Hoo is closer to the late 500's, meaning the Sutton Hoo sword and helmet were probably from the mid fifth c° around the time Raedwald was born (and more than likely were made in his father or grandfather's time and passed on).

[–]alriclofgarPost-Roman Britain | Late Antiquity 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Sutton Hoo is always dated to the first quarter of the seventh century. The helmet is agreed to be probably from the century before, likely mid-6th; I'm not sure about the sword, though I believe it has been argued that some of the spears are possibly much older. There is a late 6th century cemetery next to Sutton Hoo (just published, see here), and of course there are many other examples of fifth century swords from other cemeteries (though they become less frequent in the burial archaeology during the early-mid 6th century, whether from changes in the local iron economy as Harrington and Welch argue, or from other social factors impacting the kinds of objects placed in graves).

[–]TheCrendraven[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think it's more likely the Britons stopped looting Saxon swords off of them.

[–]TheCrendraven[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (11子コメント)

Archeology has small and large shields throughout the entire Saxon period, it doesn't seem to be an early sixth century thing.

[–]alriclofgarPost-Roman Britain | Late Antiquity 1ポイント2ポイント  (10子コメント)

I'm sure you're aware of the evidence in Dickinson and Härke, which shows some variation as you say, but also a clear trend of smaller shields in the majority in the earlier periods, with increasingly larger sizes toward the seventh century.

You may not be aware of the evidence from the recent RAF Lakenheath excavation, however, which found about 100 weapon burials, most dating to before c. 536, and all of a smaller size consistent with Dickinson and Härke's contention (John Hines discussed this in a public lecture last February).

It's possible that large shields were not buried in the earlier period but existed in living society - but the only evidence we have of that is a firm belief that battles c. 500 must have relied on shield walls as battles in the centuries before and after clearly did. Given the radical social, economic, political, and demographic changes Britain experienced during this period, I would urge caution in assuming that methods of warfare remained unchanged.

As you say, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. But absence of evidence is also not license for imposing our preconceptions of military strategy or social organization on the past. I.P. Stephenson makes a great case for hoplite-style warfare in the later Anglo-Saxon period, but the social, political, and economic context of that period was not like that of centuries before, and the surviving metal components of the weapons employed then were also significantly different. So projecting backwards, or else forwards from Late Roman tactics, are both suspect endeavors.

[–]TheCrendraven[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (8子コメント)

Methods of warfare make the most sense if they did not change. Saxons before invading England used Shield Walls and had swords and spears. Saxons had Shield Walls and had swords when written records started. It would also be nonsensical for them to be able to defeat the Britons if they did not rely on shield wall tactics. With no shield walls, they would have absolutely no chance against the Sarmatian horses most Britons were using. Even if the Saxons were on horseback, their horses were no match for the Britons'. This is almost certainly what halted Kings like Aelle and Cerdic, whose most successful battles were sieges where no horses were involved. The people who built the wansdyke were no fools, and understood military strategy brilliantly.

Single duels aren't terribly effective with spears either. And besides, we know every freeborn Saxon had to own a seax, which could mean sword sized for the poorer ones. And since every free man and woman obligatorily owned a seax, it doesn't seem a stretch to imagine most people would own a sword. No seaxes survived, yet we know there should really be millions of them buried, since everyone had them. Yet we've barely found any, compared to the amount that are certain to have existed. Why would it not be the same with swords?

And yes, small shields are useful for maneuverability, as I pointed out in the OP. Skirmishers meant to ambush using rapid, blitzkrieg-style tactics are probably the ones who carried the 30cm shields. If you're using a spear, you want a big shield, regardless of if you're going to form a shield-wall. You're not in range to masterfully block the opponent's weapon, if your block misses his spear by an inch it will slam right into you and kill you. If you were closer to him, such as a sword duel, you'd be able to block him much more easily with a smaller shield.

[–]alriclofgarPost-Roman Britain | Late Antiquity 2ポイント3ポイント  (7子コメント)

This post suggests to me that you've been reading the wrong books - it's full of a lot of popular misconceptions that have been roundly disproven by archaeologists over the past 30 years.

I would recommend you pick up a copy of Halsall, Worlds of Arthur, for a good overview of current views on Anglo-Saxon migrations (which are very different from the clashes between invading Saxons and Sarmatian cavalry that still populate cable documentaries).

I would also point you toward Robin Fleming, Britain after Rome, for a good overview of the archaeological and material conditions of the late 5th / early 6th century. Her book will explain why we cannot simply assume that society didn't change between the 4th and 8th centuries; the changes were, in fact, catastrophic. Also, James Gerrard, The Ruin of Roman Britain for a discussion of violence, elites, and the small communities into which Britain was most probably divided during these centuries of collapse / transformation. These authors will get you up to speed on current archaeological understandings of the period, and lay to rest some of the older theories you've come across.

Note that large knives / seaxes appear in the archaeology only in the late sixth - early seventh century; they are entirely absent from the earlier period, and the Saxon == seax connection is a false etymology rejected by current views. There is no evidence that historians trust to support the notion that millions of these weapons were carried; they seem, instead, to be an innovation around the end of the sixth century, likely connected with strengthening continental trade connections.

[–]TheCrendraven[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

We know everyone who wasn't a slave carried a seax, even ceorls. That would equate to there being millions of seaxes.

[–]alriclofgarPost-Roman Britain | Late Antiquity 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

No, that is an argument made by Tacitus about the people living north of the Rhine in the 2nd century (based, incidentally, on rumors he heard, not first-hand knowledge - cf. Krebs 2011, A most dangerous book). Nineteenth-century historians repeated it about the Saxons in England (and some continue, today, to repeat it from them), but there is no actual evidence to support the claim.

[–]TheCrendraven[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

"and would also carry a knife (called a seax), which signified their freedom in the eyes of medieval Anglo-Saxon society."

[–]alriclofgarPost-Roman Britain | Late Antiquity 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

and would also carry a knife (called a seax), which signified their freedom in the eyes of medieval Anglo-Saxon society

Ah, Wikipedia. See my comment about some sources repeating the statement despite evidentiary grounds. Note the source that is cited (Quennell, Marjorie and C. H. B. Quenell (1927)).

[–]TheCrendraven[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yes, most historians are intent on destroying whatever little we know about the period.

[–]alriclofgarPost-Roman Britain | Late Antiquity 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

This is profoundly insulting; hundreds of good scholars have spent years of their lives painstakingly cataloging and analyzing archaeological finds, and our knowledge of this time period is better today than it has even been before. You do their work a disservice by this statement. Please, read some of the excellent resources I have pointed you toward instead of insulting the people who allow you, in the comfort of your own home, to understand something that was forgotten for 1500 years.

[–]TheCrendraven[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

They provide no incentive to understand anything, only to destroy the research done by genius historians such as John Morris, who has been unfairly ridiculed as Einstein and Mendeleev were.

Even today, thankfully, some historians continue to do brilliant work on understanding the period accurately.

[–]TheCrendraven[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Also, better to project and draw from legends and older and newer sources than to make up or just guess.

It's like people who complain about minutiae. It doesn't really matter if "Cerdic" was a Saxon or a Briton, since whatever he was (if he even existed), his role was DEFINITELY fulfilled by someone.

[–]TheCrendraven[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

But this isn't at all what i was asking, I'm afraid. I was asking how they would try to defeat each other. I've spent the last six months studying archeology of the period, I knew all this.

[–]TheCrendraven[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (12子コメント)

The fact battles seem to have usually fought at rivers and fords suggests very intricate strategy, not a bunch of people in a free for all or single combat.

And the raids don't really count as pitched combat in the sense I have here.

[–]alriclofgarPost-Roman Britain | Late Antiquity 1ポイント2ポイント  (11子コメント)

It may, but I would recommend Sarah Semple's discussion of this question, which raises a few interpretive questions. The most significant is that fords and rivers are convenient landmarks for recording events, and it's not clear whether battles were actually fought at strategic crossings or, instead, recorded in reference to the nearest landmarks (barrows and prehistoric ruins are also frequently mentioned as locations of battles, and these sites were also key landmarks for recording one's place in the wider landscape). We don't have any surviving accounts of fights or ambushes in the water from England, as for example the contemporary accounts in Gregory of Tours (who does describe strategy around water courses).

One could reply that stream crossings are nevertheless natural places to have a fight, but that assumes that warfare in Britain in the sixth century was of a scale where these kinds of strategic maneuvers were necessary. Gildas certainly describes significant battles, but his language is extremely stylized, the scale of the conflicts he describes impossible to judge, and his details - in the few cases where they are recorded - at odds with archaeological evidence (I'm thinking of his description of the construction of the Saxon Shore fortifications after the Roman withdrawal, or his account of battering rams leveling the cities of Britain). We're also not sure when, precisely, the events he described occurred (cf Halsall 2007, barbarian migrations, and restated in 2013, worlds of Arthur) - possibly the first half of the fifth century rather than the late 5th - early 6th as often assumed. Gildas' writing is heavily classicizing and uses political, military, and religious conflicts from the past to create moral lessons for the present; it is not clear whether we should take his battles as accurate descriptions of real conflicts, or inflated (or invented) conflicts designed to reinforce his warnings against the destructive power of sinful living and poor monarchical rule.

An alternative theory which, I think, is worth more serious consideration is voiced by Semple 2013 and Halsall 1989, and is that warfare in the early 6th century was much more scripted, ritualized, and performative than the large battles and extended conflicts seen further to the east in same period. Semple suggests that barrows, ruins, and water courses were chosen as meeting places where warriors from two rival communities would agree to meet and settle their differences. Halsall argues that these conflicts may have been more about showcasing personal bravery by bloodying rivals than the larger-scale formal clashes between shieldwalls of kingdoms seeking to physically cripple the material fighting power of a rival.

If these arguments are correct, they challenge us to reconsider the scale of warfare in Britain in the early 6th century. Taken together with the archaeological evidence - which suggests a period of relative peace (cf. Gerrard 2013) and gives no indication that large armies of young men were slaughtering each other in shieldwalls - I would question the frequency of pitched combat in the sense you describe. It's not something we have much evidence to support, and it doesn't fit the archaeological picture of contemporary British society at the dawn of the sixth century, which is one of impoverished, tiny communities with little political organization and few power centres around which an organized army could be gathered. Is there a reason we should expect these people to have many pitched battles before c. 560 (after which, larger kingdoms do seem to start again in earnest)?

[–]TheCrendraven[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Gildas mentions rivers running red, which would only be possible if the battles were fought in or near the rivers.

[–]alriclofgarPost-Roman Britain | Late Antiquity 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's also a trope from classical texts, and the old testament, both of which Gildas was very familiar with. Reveltation 16.4 describes the outpouring of God's wrath:

The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood.

Gildas was a preacher, and his text is trying to convince people to stop sinning and return to God. His use of biblical language describing the wrath of God, like references to blood-red rivers, emphasizes the high stakes of the situation. Sin literally almost brought about the end of the world, and it will do so in the future if people don't clean up their acts. God's wrath can only be stopped by real and immediate repentance. Gildas ends his sermon with these words:

In this way the wrath of the Lord may be averted from you, inasmuch as He mercifully says: I wish not the death of the sinner, but that he may be converted and live.

Repentance, and biblical language, are at the heart of his message.

Taking this at face value both misses what Gildas is trying to accomplish by the reference (invoking biblical imagery to convict his audience). This doesn't mean Gildas is not describing real battles; but we should be cautious taking biblical metaphors as more than what they were intended to be.

[–]TheCrendraven[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (8子コメント)

It's ridiculous to suggest lack of archeological or written evidence means everyone was very polite and didn't fight properly for 170 years since the first Saxons arrived in 390.

Warrior cultures fight.

And yes, pitched battles are necessary when defending relatively big walled cities like Ebrauc or even Cissasceaster.

[–]alriclofgarPost-Roman Britain | Late Antiquity 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

I would definitely recommend Halsall's 1989 piece. Warrior cultures fight, yes - but usually not in pitched battles. He draws on a lot of comparative anthropological research to make his case.

Violence was absolutely an important part of life in this period, but that doesn't mean that people fought in large-scale battles. During these centuries, people were the poorest they had been in Britain for more than 500 years, and politics were shattered. By 500, every city in Britain had been abandoned (not because of invasions / conquest, but because the economic infrastructure on which they depended had completely collapsed / vanished). There is little evidence for urban occupation at any sites after the beginning of the fifth century, and by 500 cities were only being used as sources of raw materials (especially iron), and as meeting places for occasional parties / feasts when people wanted to feast in a ruin that suggested the older way of life / older form of power. This was a different kind of society, in which violence took a different form from what came before and after.

Towns appear again in the seventh century, which is also when we start seeing evidence for weapons changing, iron technology improving, and strong kingdoms organizing - all these things being, of course, closely related.

Adam Rogers, late Roman Towns in Britain gives a good overview of urban transformation and abandonment.

[–]TheCrendraven[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Some cities were upheld, like Ebrauc and Carlisle. That has been proven by archeology. The fountains, aqueduct and walls of Carlisle were upheld until the Saxons took the city.

[–]TheCrendraven[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

There's no proof ruins were meeting places. They had no religious significance, which is what the Celts preferred (Vortigern and Hengest's armies meeting at Stonehenge). Few people seem to have mourned the old way of life, given they went back to living in roundhouses and the Roman Emperor flat-out refused to ever help or talk to them again.

[–]alriclofgarPost-Roman Britain | Late Antiquity 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I have cited the sources which describe this, but in case it wasn't clear, Sarah Semple, perceptions of the prehistoric is the most recent discussion of the evidence.

Ancient and Roman ruins served as focal points for burial places (in addition to Semple, see Williams, Death and Memory (2006)), community foci (cf. Harrington and Welch), assembly sites (for local courts which grew, by the middle Saxon period, into the hundred courts - Semple is unsurpassed for this), and eventually became in some cases execution cemeteries (Reynold's 2009). Their specifically religious significance is debated, but see Carver et al, Signals of Belief (2010) for discussion.

[–]TheCrendraven[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

And trade was never cut off. We have found mid fifth century silver plates from the Middle-East. Trade continued throughout the Sub-Roman period.

[–]alriclofgarPost-Roman Britain | Late Antiquity 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The volume of trade decreased significantly. You are correct that some goods from very far afield continued to make it into England (the island was never disconnected from the rest of the world), but they were much more restricted in quantity than before or after. Fleming's work gives an excellent discussion of this question.

[–]shlin28Moderator | The End of Late Antiquity, c.500-700[M] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but, speaking as a mod here, can I ask that you treat further discussion of this topic with more civility? /u/alriclofgar has provided several excellent answers based on recent scholarship and his own research, which as far as I know reflect well on what historians think about early medieval warfare. Your assertions on the other hand are not backed up by the sources and are increasingly confrontational. AskHistorians is a great place to get an understanding of what scholars think, but it is also important to play your part by acknowledging the excellent answers here, even if they disagree with your views. You are welcome to ask further questions here, but please be civil and critique the answers in a more substantive fashion.

Thank you!

PS: From our rules:

This subreddit is called AskHistorians, not LectureHistorians or DebateHistorians. While we appreciate your enthusiasm for the history of issues that play a role in your life, we are here to answer your questions about issues, not provide a sounding board for your theories or a podium for your lectures. All questions must allow a back-and-forth dialogue based on the desire to gain further information, and not be predicated on a false and loaded premise in order to push an agenda.

[–]alriclofgarPost-Roman Britain | Late Antiquity 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you, /u/shlin28 , though I'll say I'm enjoying this conversation (it's saving me from grading papers, and I like talking about my research, even if the back and forth becomes heated :) ).

[–]TheCrendraven[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Gildas's de Excidio from 539 AD mentions some battles too, I've seen historians build entire hoplilogical novels based on a single paragraph from Gildas.