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Selling my car to an attorney, am I also marrying him? (x-post /r/cars) Denton County, Texas, USA (self.legaladvice)

arinthyn が 投稿

Selling my car to an attorney, so naturally he is making the bill of sale.

I do not understand the second paragraph at all - as far as I can tell, I'm either marrying him or entering my family into slavery under him.

Don't want to ask him, for obvious reasons. Someone please explain?

Bill of Sale: http://i.imgur.com/c8uY2VN.png

EDIT: Alrighty guys, going to tell him I'd rather do a simple bill of sale, such as one straight from the DMV.

This is what I've typically done, but I didn't want to question an attorney over something like this.

Thanks for all the advice!

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[–]litmustest1Quality Contributor 332ポイント333ポイント  (19子コメント)

Wow that is a terribly written document.

The second paragraph looks to be some sort of indemnification clause making you responsible for defending against someone else claiming that they have some sort of right to the vehicle.

Personally, I wouldn't sign this. Among other reasons, it doesn't even contain a statement that the sale is as-is.

Call your local DMV, they usually have a bill of sale form that's clear, concise, and actually readable. Otherwise, you can probably find workable forms online somewhere.

[–]the_ocalhoun 118ポイント119ポイント  (9子コメント)

Or, as I've done in the past, simply get out a piece of notebook paper and write,

I, _my name_ hereby sell the _year_ _make_ _model_ with VIN _VIN_ to _buyer's name_ on _date_ for _sale price_. Vehicle is sold 'as is', and comes with no warranty. This sale is final and cannot be reversed unless agreed by both parties.

[Sign and date by buyer and seller]

A simple hand-written note like that has always been plenty for me in the past, including in the DMV, when they want to see a bill of sale.

[–]canofpotatoes 51ポイント52ポイント  (4子コメント)

Done this a few times this exact way. If you aren't comfortable use a DMV bill of sale. Tell him that form is too wordy and unnecessarily complicated.

[–]Prof_Acorn 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

too wordy and unnecessarily complicated.

aka, convoluted.

[–]B-ert 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

unnecessarily repetitive and redundant, like this post

[–]anti09 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It pretty much just repeats the same thing over and over without adding anything

[–]s-dubya 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I see what you did there.

[–]dannydifalco 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ditto same.

[–]skatastic57 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

In Florida you only need the bill of sale if the buyer doesn't ever register the car for some reason and you need to show that you don't own it anymore.

[–]donjuansputnik 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

In Florida you only need the bill of sale if the buyer doesn't ever register the car for some reason and you need to show that you don't own it anymore. to cover your ass.

FTFY.

[–]TheUltimateSalesman -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I love cocktails and their napkins.

[–]LinearFluid 15ポイント16ポイント  (1子コメント)

I was thinking same thing that this paragraph means the seller is representing that they own the car they are actually selling and that if at any time down the road someone else lays claim to it. Even if it is something like an unpaid parking ticket or registration fee that prevents it from being registered say even in another state the seller is responsible. I would be hesitant on signing this too as convoluted, and as others more knowing say, how poorly it is written this guy can be opening it up to all kinds of interpretation.

One thing that this is lacking is the term "as is" which correct me if I am wrong is implied and does not have to be stated but with something so poor could he turn around a part of the contract and claim that it negates the "as is" of the sale. If I am dealing with an attorney selling a car to them I would want the specific wording of "As is" added to the contract and in it's proper context and not in a rescinding of that feature if they write the sale up otherwise use a ready made form.

IMO, only way I would sell to him is with a standard off the web bill of sale for a car you can get right from the DMV. Here.

This part

"Your local County Tax Assessor-Collectors office may have a ready-to-use bill of sale for vehicles. Jefferson County has a bare-bones bill of sale, for example, that you can use in any county."

[–]nerdburg 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

One thing that this is lacking is the term "as is"

This OP. Listen to /u/LinearFluid. If you are really going to sell your car to an attorney that would author a pile of garbage agreement like that, you want to make sure to CYA. A bill of sale is just a receipt/certificate documenting a transfer of personal property. Although it contains legally relevant information, it is not meant to be a contract, but rather as evidence of a contract (sales agreement). You'll definitely want the words "as is" on your bill of sale. Otherwise, I can almost guarantee that your purchaser will start sending you demand letters the first time something fails on the car. The bill of sale should simply document who, what, when, how much and warranty. That's it.

This is just info, not legal advice....blahblahblah

[–]LayeredPrayers 6ポイント7ポイント  (4子コメント)

Yep exactly. The language is very similar in that which is used in real estate deeds to warrant title to the property.

[–]arinthyn[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

This makes sense, he is younger (for an attorney) and typically deals in real estate

[–]NeilZod 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Try to find a nice way to tell the lawyer to read books written by Bryan Garner.

[–]shadowofashadow 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Tell him if it can't be written in plain English you're not interested in agreeing to it. There is no need for so much garble for a car sale.

[–]Augustus_Caesar1 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm in the oil business and have been through thousands of leases, deeds, sales of assignments etc... And despite what others in this thread are saying this looks like a pretty normal bill of sale. There is nothing tricky or deceiving about the way it's worded. It's really pretty straight forward. It's obvious he's in real estate or does some kind of land work.

The only thing I don't know is what your exhibit "a" looks like, but that's not a big deal. I'm guessing it just lists the make, model, and vin of the car.

People calling this over complicated or pretentious likely just don't deal with documents like this regularly which a lawyer like him would constantly be working with.

[–]NeilZod 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think the lawyer took words out of documents used to transfer real estate.

[–]bbhr 392ポイント393ポイント  (18子コメント)

This is someone a little too full of themselves/their education. First, he's trying to make it look like a court document (it isn't). Second, it looks like he's basically trying to craft a hold harmless agreement/force you to guarantee that their are no outstanding claims on the vehicle, but is being a pompous ass about it. Honestly, I would refuse to sign anything this complicated.

[–]BuffyCreepireSlayer 72ポイント73ポイント  (14子コメント)

KNOW ALL MEN BY THESE PRESENTS

[–]atomicthumbs 30ポイント31ポイント  (10子コメント)

edging dangerously close to car-of-the-family-Ford territory there

[–]TheUltimateSalesman 18ポイント19ポイント  (4子コメント)

IANAL but I did a deal in Western Virginia (not WV) and I remember getting a copy of the deed and it looked like a preacher had written it. 'we prayeth' etc. handwritten, cursive. I've seen old deeds before, even with wax seals, but this one really hit me....Maybe because it was so legible.

[–]sisypheansoup 15ポイント16ポイント  (2子コメント)

Were there begats? Please tell me there were begats.

[–]lgf92 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

NOW THIS BILL OF SALE FOR AN AFFORDABLE SEDAN CAR WITNESSETH:

I have a book called "Clarity for Lawyers" and documents like this just fly in the face of literally every principle in there.

[–]taterbizkit 18ポイント19ポイント  (4子コメント)

I sell to you my travelling device known to the world as ::Mustang ; Ford-Fastback:: of the Year of Our Lord 1963 and itself thereby known.

I had an opposing party who loved the phrase "and all of them". Myself, Doyle: Elvis, and My Wife, Doyle: Eleanor, and all of us, do solemnly...

That and "Doyle: Elvis, a White Christian Male not embarrassed by the 14th Amendment"

[–]Grimsterr 9ポイント10ポイント  (3子コメント)

Mustang came out mid year 1964 (aka the 64 and a half Mustang) fastbacks didn't hit the market until August 1965 for the 66 model year.

[–]taterbizkit 21ポイント22ポイント  (2子コメント)

I was testing you.

[–]thegeekprophet 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

That gets u/Grimsterr riled up every time!

[–]Grimsterr 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, I figured, pompous was the theme so...

[–]Chizomsk 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

I sense a fedora and some ogre swords.

[–]ProSeLitigation 20ポイント21ポイント  (0子コメント)

I love this response.

[–]knowsitallandall 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I immediately got a very distinct /r/iamverysmart vibe from the document. The same feeling I get when I read a book that is authored by someone who knows expertly how to use a thesaurus.

[–]Edgeinsthelead 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah not worth the trouble

[–]TheCatGuardian 79ポイント80ポイント  (11子コメント)

You can usually print a very simple bill of sale off the BMV website. That is an extremely complicated and pretentious bill of sale.

The to have and hold part is referring to the car, not a person though.

[–]arinthyn[S] 33ポイント34ポイント  (4子コメント)

Yeah he offered to write it up and I figured it would be typical basic bill of sale. Only reason I'm trying to work with him is he is paying asking price

[–]rankinfile 108ポイント109ポイント  (3子コメント)

Tell him you'll have to get four hundred dollars more for the car to have your attorney review that bill of sale. Or... He can meet you at the DMV with cash and you'll use all their forms and knock one hundred off the price.

[–]TanithRosenbaum 24ポイント25ポイント  (1子コメント)

Do this, /u/arinthyn. And please tell us how he reacted. Honestly, that's comedy gold.

[–]Paddy32 -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

!Remindme 1 day

[–]Maysock 16ポイント17ポイント  (5子コメント)

The Bepartment of Mober Vebicles?

[–]At_AOL_dot_COM 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

Bureau

[–]Maysock 21ポイント22ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ah, the Bepartment of Mober Vebicles Bureau. Thanks.

[–]SAWK 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Burrow of Motor Vehicles

[–]boinger 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah. Ohio is stupid like that.

(Indiana and Maine are, too, but I never lived in either of those.)

[–]Newdist2 45ポイント46ポイント  (4子コメント)

Is this guy a real lawyer?

I know there are a lot of shit-tier law schools out there, but damn.

[–]PetraB 44ポイント45ポイント  (1子コメント)

You know what they call the person who graduates bottom of the class from law school?

A lawyer.

[–]the_ocalhoun 32ポイント33ポイント  (0子コメント)

You know what they call the person who graduates bottom of the class from law school?

The '& son' on the 'Gustofson, Gustofson & son law firm' sign.

[–]WalterWhiteRabbit 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

Bird law.

[–]grasshoppa1Quality Contributor 148ポイント149ポイント  (8子コメント)

That second paragraph basically says (from your perspective), "I super duper promise to verbally and legally bitch out anyone who tries to say "nuh uh" to the fact that I sold you this car, even if you're dead and your mom or your kids have it now."

[–]arinthyn[S] 35ポイント36ポイント  (6子コメント)

Lol that's what the consensus seems to be. Thanks!

[–]ilove2poop 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

If you don't mind me asking, what car are you selling?

[–]arinthyn[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

An 07 Mini Cooper S.

[–]histar1 9ポイント10ポイント  (3子コメント)

Not even an antique or something? Is this guy straight out of uni?

[–]arinthyn[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's very possible, not older than 30 by my eyes, but I'm only 25.

[–]histar1 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Sounds like a guy who still takes his job super seriously, we've all been there. He'll mellow out. Until then, just roll with the advice in the top comment, if he's still being a bit of a prick post again and we can help you out more.

[–]arinthyn[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's the plan! Thanks!

[–]Angellotta 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is my favorite translation I've seen here.

[–]The_Impresario 32ポイント33ポイント  (2子コメント)

Tell him to meet you at the Tax Assessors office in Crossroads (a lot less busy). Bring with you a bill of sale that you prepared, or found online. It only needs to say a few things: both of your names, the date, the purchase price, identifying information on the car, and the fact that the sale is as-is. You are also supposed to bring an application for Texas title with the pertinent sections filled out. Since you're already there, ask the agent to get you the form indicating you have sold the vehicle and should not be held liable for it (you can also do that online).

Do not sign this bullshit document. If he has a problem with that tell him to piss off.

[–]the_ocalhoun 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

ask the agent to get you the form indicating you have sold the vehicle and should not be held liable for it

Meh. In Idaho, that form costs money to submit, so I've never bothered, despite having sold quite a few cars.

And you know what? Once the worst possible thing actually happened! The cops called me and said 'your vehicle has been found abandoned by the side of the highway'. I told them I sold it a couple years ago, they said okay, and I haven't heard anything else since. No big deal. Maybe I should have gone and picked it up, then I'd have a free car for the cost of a parking ticket.

[–]esthershair 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

I recently had someone hit and run on my brand new car while it was parked in a hospital parking lot. The title was never properly signed over to the purchaser, who claimed she wasn't driving. According to the cops and the insurance company, neither the original seller or the woman who never finished the transaction (but drove the car) are liable for the damage. Your post reminded me of my situation.

[–]sstterry1 15ポイント16ポイント  (3子コメント)

Actually he is adding wording that is normally put in deeds and real estate contracts. The words " successors and assigns" are terms of art in the legal realm. Bottom line is, it means you are selling it to him and you can't come back later and say there was a mistake.

[–]arinthyn[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

This would make sense, as he typically deals in real estate from my googling

[–]drunktexan69 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

This is the only response that is anywhere close to being correct. This is standard language in a warranty deed...

[–]mementosmentos 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, I was going to say that this looks standard for a bill of sale document in a real estate acquisition, but I've never seen that doc with a recording heading on it, since it's not a recorded instrument, so I'm not sure.. unless, he plans on recording?

[–]skelliam 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

'seller forever binds himself to warrant and defend said property'

Spit out coffee.

No way.

[–]420ed 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Mazel. Good things. Good things. You two will make a wonderful couple.

[–]soonerborn23 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I would be hesitant to sell to this ahole.

He very well may try to sue you for some issue with the car.

[–]TheLordB 11ポイント12ポイント  (4子コメント)

Practical advice would be find someone else to sell to. If he is acting like this there is a high possibility he does other crazy stuff. It isn't worth the risk of having a crazy person after you.

[–]ThatGuyGetsIt 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

To that end, find someone else to marry as well.

[–]the_ocalhoun 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Eh, as long as the paperwork is done right, selling a car is pretty low-risk, no matter how crazy the person you sold it to is.

[–]TheLordB 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I get the impression this person will be asking for a refund the first time something goes wrong with the car.

Generally speaking if someone is throwing up red flags before you still it is best not to sell.

[–]boinger 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

God damn, you'd think so.

I once sold a car (awesome 1967 VW Squareback) to a crazy in cash. Still came back to bite me somehow.

Fucker had some sort of medical event in it less than two days later, which caused him (in it) to wreck (damaged but not totaled -- still driveable). And he was evac'd. And all the paperwork for the sale was, of course, still in the fucking car.

So me, being a nice midwestern boy, went with him to the impound to get it out since I was still "the owner" (I called them and confirmed that since there was "no paperwork", he was pretty much stuck if I didn't help him out and personally sign it out of the impound lot). Took almost two fucking hours of waiting in line mid-weekday.

I also brought a notarized Definitely Not My Car Anymore note (reviewed by my lawyer friend) because, christ, who knows what Mr Crazy's next adventure would bring.

So...YMMV.

[–]ProSeLitigation 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's basically saying that the car is his and his successors property and he owns all the legal rights to that certain vehicle.

[–]taterbizkit 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

"To have and hold"... Yeah, those do mean two different things (possession vs ownership). I'm surprised he didn't include that he's taking the car "in fee simple".

[–]CowOrker01 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Maybe buyer would prefer quitclaim car title?

[–]honkhonkbeepbeeep 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

DO HEREBY RELEASE THIS CAR WITH QUITCLAIM COVENANTS

[–]CowOrker01 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

CAR ,TO BE DENOTED AS VEHICLE BOUNDED BETWEEN front bumper AND rear bumper.

[–]emperorzurg 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

Is this attorney under the age of 25? (seems random but it would imply that he is basically a fresh licensed attorney with hardly any experience under his belt).

[–]arinthyn[S] 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

I would say he's under 30

[–]esthershair 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why is the buyer's name listed under the heading of "SELLER"?

This is sketchy.

[–]skelliam 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

First: I'm not a lawyer, this is my opinion and not legal advice.

Look up Steve Lehto, he IS a lawyer who deals mostly with automotive related cases. He also publishes a great podcast.

Anyway, he has said time and time again that a used car transaction is an AS-IS transaction. Period. This means the buyer accepts the vehicle WITH ALL FAULTS. Only if there was intentional fraud or obfuscation on your part would this not be true. He has said that largely the bill of sale is not necessary to state that the transaction is as-is because legally that is already the case (he practices is Michigan). That said, any bill of sale stating a bunch of legal crap, forget it, don't sign it!!

Not a lawyer, but please check out the podcast/lawyer mentioned.

[–]nero_djin 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Actually i took a look at the DMV form bill of sales. It does nicely identify the vehicle but it talks nothing about condition.
If you want to sell (and it is common practise to do) the car "as is" you will want to have that clearly stated on the bill of sale.

You can find such templates online. This seemed appropriate.

[–]NoviceApproach 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I always tell people to list cars "as is". Disclose everything you know about the vehicle, of course, but still sell it as is. You never know if there is a faulty part thats going to go out 2 weeks after they buy it. As long as you disclose everything you know, not hiding any defects, then selling as is is a good way to protect yourself. Of course, this depends on your states laws. In Texas, this will cover you

[–]andpassword 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Many people have mentioned the 'as is' that's missing, I am not a lawyer but when I'm selling cars/etc. I always also add one other: 'As-is, where-is', i.e. as soon as this agreement's effective, the car is your problem, no matter where it might be, and you're responsible for getting your grubby mitts on it, there's no delivery. That may not be important in this case, but I thought I'd toss it into the discussion.

[–]Flymia 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

That's a clause you find in the sale of real estate, not goods.

[–]arinthyn[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

This makes sense, I googled him and found out he is typically a Real Estate, Child, and Elder lawyer.

[–]Newdist2 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ask him what his LSAT score was.

[–]jrockpunk1 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

how is this guy an attorney :(

[–]barbarbarbarbarbarba 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

"For good and valuable consideration."

Why do people write this? If there is a problem with consideration, is the judge going to see that and be all " oh, well, it says right here there is consideration."

[–]Junkmans1 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

IANAL, but does anyone here think it is unusual that the document doesn't say who is responsible for paying off the lien? Or does the last paragraph imply that seller (OP) will?

[–]NoviceApproach 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I took it as the last paragraph states he is to report everything to USAA and take care of it on that end

[–]Junkmans1 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yea but are they only talking about documents there or the loan payoff funds as well. It sounded to me like it's just documents but I wasn't sure of that and thought the form did not make it clear who is responsible for the payoff.

[–]nerdburg 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

The terms of the sale should be spelled out in a sales agreement(contract) before the transaction. The bill of sale is just documenting the transaction.

[–]Junkmans1 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Realistically, how many people selling a used car in a private sale prepare a written sales agreement (contract) before the transaction?

I'd say that it is extremely rare. Perhaps it might occasionally be used on large value purchases (think very high end) cars where the transaction doesn't take place immediately when the agreement is made. But most private used car sales that I've heard of are completed more or less on a handshake and consummated immediately or the following day with the only documentation being the original ad (if any) and a quick bill of sale (if any) and the completion of the title.

[–]nerdburg 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You aren't wrong and I completely agree with you. I'm just saying in OP's case his purchaser is being ridiculous by adding obligations with grandiose verbiage to a bill of sale.

[–]DMVman 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

This is what you do:

Contact the Texas DMV assuming your title is issued by that state, if not contact the state where it is issued from, and ask them what is needed to transfer ownership of the vehicle. Specifically you want to know what do you need to sign/fill out as the seller to actually sell the car.

The reason I bring this up is because at least in the state I work a bill of sale for a sale from person to person is not only not require but also not recognized as a document that actually legally transfers ownership of the vehicle. Here all you need to do is sign the title, do it in front of a notary, and have it notarized. Done, everything else is on the buyer.

So the lawyer at the end of the day may be asking you to sign a document that is basically irrelevant for legal transfer of ownership. Follow what the DMV says, if the buyer doesn't like it, then have him contact the DMV to confirm, or find another buyer. I wouldn't sign that junk he wrote up.

Just remember that state the title is issued from is that state that controls what is considered a legal transfer of ownership (at least from the sellers end of things), not the state where the buy is going to title it.

[–]arinthyn[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

In Texas you can write your own bill of sale, and they provide all the basic necessary info online at the DMV Texas website.

But regardless he is needlessly complicating it I feel lol.

[–]DMVman 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

According to the Texas DMV website, in regard to selling a vehicle, it does not mention specifically that a bill of sale is a require item for the seller to sell the vehicle.

"Provide the buyer with a properly signed title, including the date of sale and odometer reading and a signed Application for Texas Title and/or Registration (Form 130-U) with the sales price clearly shown. A seller should keep detailed written records of any transaction, including contact information for the buyer, the date of sale and information on the vehicle, including the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN)."

http://www.txdmv.gov/motorists/buying-or-selling-a-vehicle

[–]arinthyn[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ah yeah, looks like I was using that "fake" DMV website lol.

We'll probably use one regardless for piece of mind - there is a loan/lien on the car.

[–]DMVman 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

No problem, glad to be of help. Texas isn't the only state that has a problem with those fake DMV sites.

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    [–]freddymerckx 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I think that a$$hole lawyer is having a little fun, having a good time, trying to look real smart. Sell it to someone else

    [–]SuperCashBrother 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    This looks like a warning sign of headaches to come. Sell the vehicle to someone else.

    [–]slimyprincelimey 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I was hoping to see the words "Yea verily"

    [–]Fuddit -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    WOW, DO NOT SIGN THIS. He's trying to make you responsible for the car if it breaks down even 10 years after the sale. Wow, attorney's are such a fucking asshole. They have no hearts.

    [–]Stalked_Like_Corn 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I don't think he's doing that as much as saying HE isn't responsible for it and that if it DOES break down and someone comes after him, he will say "Not my fault, go after her".