Is forcing traditionally meat eating native american cultures to adopt veganism a form of eurocentric oppression?

captainzigzag · 10時間前

Cultural differneces aside, why would you force someone to become vegan? Sounds pretty oppressive to me.

_ozma_ · 7時間前

the moral ideology necessary for veganism is a product of our current civilization. indigenous cultures have traditionally benefited and maintained their landbase, it is the invention of factory farming that has created the sharp contrast between the centuries old relationship of hunter and prey and the modern relationship of the consumer and the consumed.

humans are animals, we eat other animals. we owe it the animals we eat to maintain their landbase and not to exploit them in exchange for what we take from them for our food. our current system of agriculture and animals husbandry does not allow for the symbiotic relationship that indigenous cultures enjoyed before colonialism and civilization. to compare the two is fallacious.

veganism would not be necessary were it not for our current system of destruction and exploitation. consuming animals doesn't need to be a moralized decision, it has become one.

so yes, to answer your question, it would definitely be oppressive, much in the same way forcing civilization onto them was.

NeverStopWondering · 8時間前

There is no ethical consumption under capitalism. Most farming uses either bonemeal, tilling, manure, etc. All of which involve animal exploitation to one extent or another. Sure, veganism will likely reduce the extent to which your food consumption will harm animals, but it sure as shit won't prevent it entirely. (Unless you grow all your own food or diligently source everything from outlets that are "cruelty-free".)

This is why it is both unrealistic and counter-productive to draw some arbitrary ethical line around food choices.

To answer your question: yes.

Ozymandias52x · 7時間前

So apparently the lives of other animals aren't quite as important as retaining the pleasure of eating their flesh.

I'm not making the argument here that it isn't natural to eat meat. I'm making the observation that it is no longer necessary for us to end the lives of other animals in order for us to survive.

We are eating meat strictly because we enjoy it. I find this to be one of the most egregious and disgusting violations of one of the most core tenants of anarchism. These animals are born into captivity and raised to the prime of their life only to be cut down and sold for the value of their flesh. How is this not hypocrisy?

criticalnegation · 7時間前

What stop at native americans? I mean, if someone is ethnically french...

rechelon · 10時間前

Maybe spend some time examining what you mean by "forcing." Because it sounds like you're talking about a situation (hopefully) of free association rather than forcing. And putting veganism into the points of unity of your commune is pretty much as a-ok a move as one could imagine. If your friend doesn't want to participate and yall feel it's an important ethical line, then so be it.

Personally I'm even of the opinion that when we get better technology we should probably intercede to stop dolphins from eating cuttlefish or argue them out of being murderous rapists to one another, so you can imagine I'm not much of a fan of "stay in your culture's lane" when it comes to ethical questions with other humans.

There are always complexities to navigate when it comes to any sort of action to persuade, dissuade, or block along ethical grounds. Especially when you operate from an implicit existing frame of power (like being white and having the white empire already backing you). If you're a relativist or consider cultural blocs to have some kind of magical borders that should never be transgressed, then you would presumably be against burning down some kind of indigenous-run factory-farm-like thing. I'm a moral realist and universalist so I'm generally totally okay with telling other cultures/subcultures/neighbors they should stop doing a shitty thing. Other people would say that's colonialism/imperialism. I think that's a horrible and ahistorical misuse of those concepts.

InfuriatinglyRed · 10時間前

Assuming you believe an animal's value (for lack of a better term) to be comparable to that of a human, surely this would be no more oppressive than 'forcing' women's liberation on patriarchal cultures?

JuneBugg94 · 8時間前

EDIT:Before people start getting angry, I want you to think about whether or not you've grown up as/around/with indigenous communities or if your mindset is just that of someone who is white/non-indigenous. It seems everyone in this thread who doesn't support OP's rhetoric is being downvoted for opinions that are non-antagonist. Very hive mind like and not conducive to conversation.

I think the idea that one must be a vegan to be a true anarchist is elitist and comes from a place of privilege. Maybe this isn't what you mean but it seems heavily implied.

Veganism isn't cruelty free necessarily, as another person mentioned.

Soy fields are ruining natural habitats for many species.

Many farmers in various countries are having their lands bought by corporate America to grow our corn and various other foods. This is ruining their land and is extremely laborious. These people are poor because they live off their lands, and now they're tainted.

Not to mention that everyone's dietary demands are different.

How do we solve these problems? Grow our own food, buy local, buy fair trade etc. But this is also expensive and can be time consuming. Not something easy for the poor.

Not to mention that eating animals isn't necessarily cruel. You can buy happy meat or even hunt on your own. Just because I don't eat a bear doesn't mean it won't eat me. Many animals eat animals and we're among those animals.

During our evolution thousands of years ago, certain cultures didn't eat meat. This is only one reason why some people don't need meat and others do.

Indigenous people hunt their food and are respectful towards the earth. I think it's disrespectful for white people who invaded this land and commited genocide to tell them what is cruel and what is not.

readingdaskapital · 4時間前

It's no more oppressive than forcing a hispanic Christian, black plumber, or white lesbian to stop eating meat. It's ridiculous to violently impose dietary restrictions on people irregardless of the circumstances (maybe with the exception of preventing kids from eating led or protecting yourself from cannibalistic neighbors).

Indians are people and if you take an issue with something they do, then criticize it. I myself think it's a ridiculous thing to do, as life eats life and meat is often integral to the diets of many peoples, but if you think it's wrong then say something. Indians aren't some special category of people who we shouldn't criticize because of their oppressed status. And frankly, the weird liberal multicultural thing where we dance around confronting groups we perceive as oppressed because we need to be sensitive to their culture, they can't take a joke, or they are too pure and true in comparison to "us" colonizers is ironically Eurocentrism at it's finest.

lunarbizarro · 9時間前

Despite finding the consumption of animals morally abhorrent, I generally feel like it's not my place to interfere with other cultures' eating habits. 1) a white person pushing eating habits on a POC is going to seem very colonial, and 2) it's ineffective activism, because of the above. Better to let activists within these communities do the ground work and support them when possible.

I take kind of a similar focus with say FGM or circumcision. I find both abhorrent, but there are people within communities that practice it that can speak out against it in a much more effective and less colonizing way than I.

Kropotsmokin · 9時間前

Yes. Stop trying to regulate what people eat. Veganism isn't all that "cruelty free."

Spambop · 2時間前

A bunch of people who have for their whole lives been brainwashed into eating meat don't want to give up their precious meat. Colour me amazed.

gibbous_maiden · 10時間前

Yes, it is. Don't do it.

son_nequitur · 8時間前

When you eat vegetables, you are killing animals for food. The land those vegetables grew on used to be animal habitat. You cleared it, often wiping out entire populations of animals. Year after year that land continues to be tampered with to prevent the native ecology from returning. You can't wash your hands of that.

Is it more ethical to destroy an entire ecology so you can use those animals' land to grow your vegetables, or to be a caretaker of that ecology, killing some animals for food, but allowing the population to continue to thrive?

I don't think there is a clear-cut answer to this question.

Edit: I know people hate this idea, it gets downvoted every time I post it anywhere on Reddit. I would love it if someone responded to it. I think maybe people think I'm trying to say there is no point in being vegan, but I'm almost 100% vegan. I think vegan food is awesome and is a huge part of the solution to a lot of problems. I just don't think it's automatically better than animal foods. It makes me sad that vegans don't want to know the true animal costs of their food, because I actually care about those animals and I am just as upset at vegans who don't pay attention to their animal costs of their food as I am at meat eaters who do the same thing. A thoughtless vegan is not equivalent to a thoughtless meat eater, but both are harming animals and I care about all of the animals involved. Many species are in seriously precarious positions and we can't afford to ignore the details.

Strange_Rice · 1時間前

Something that I haven't seen much here is mental health and specifically eating disorders.

For some people with EDs or in recovery any major change to diet is really unsafe mental health wise as it can be am excuse to restrict diet.

So maybe don't force anyone into stuff?

-Enkara- · 1時間前

I don't see how vegetarianism/veganism is particularly eurocentric in the first place.

PierreEinstein · 1時間前

Why are you forcing anyone to be vegan? I've been a vegan for years and never once forced someone into it. Why not present the idea and let them decide?

Now, if the person or persons you are referring to are implying you can't learn from different cultures then they have issues far beyond eating meat.

TheCrimsonScout · 5時間前

X-post this to r/veganarchism they might help you.

Dont force them, Some times people are comfortable to live and die by their beliefs. my parents taught me the importance of maintaining my culture due to this country's history. But as I grew I found that to be a sign of ignorance a bit because I rather adopt traits of other culture to formulate my own.

As an American, it seems typically stereotype; but i think that what you should do, instead of shouting at them to stop eating and wearing animals, possibly introduce vegan traits. it will benefit someones life even if you are around others that wont cave so easily.

curlupanddiy · 2時間前

yeah, it really is. i get that you've got good intentions but forcing anyone to live by your own code of ethics, especially (but not only) when dealing with people for whom it's a part of their culture, is bullshit. it's a good sign that you thought to ask but forcing anyone to do anything like that is never going to breed anything other than resentment and make you look like an (admittedly well meaning) pigheaded asshole.

that said, if your collective is specifically a vegan one then there's grounds to just say 'look we don't consume animal products here' at the door and the choice would be theirs about whether or not to sign up. obviously this calls into question the issue of discriminatory membership rules but i think outside of a workplace environment this would probably be fair enough. but if the people in question are already members and you're trying to impose this on them after the fact, i think you'd probably do best to suck it up.

signed, a vegetarian

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