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                  [–]MrTornado 1810 points1811 points1812 points  (283 children)
                  Just to play devil's advocate...
                  "The survey results show that 76 of the 77 participating scientists said they had not encountered evidence of a secret spraying program, and agree that the alleged evidence cited by the individuals who believe that atmospheric spraying is occurring could be explained through other factors, such as typical airplane contrail formation and poor data sampling."
                  I read this as one of the world's leading atmospheric scientists has encountered evidence of a secret spraying program.
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                          [–]Gertrudion 214 points215 points216 points  (72 children)
                          Just because we know what he did not said doesn't let us know what he had said.
                          [–]Mathemagicland 237 points238 points239 points  (62 children)
                          Here's what they said, from the paper:
                          The one participant who answered yes said the evidence s/he had come across was 'high levels of atm[ospheric] barium in a remote area with standard 'low' soil barium'.
                          [–]luxdesigns 85 points86 points87 points  (43 children)
                          Might be a result of this, if they're anywhere near (or downwind of) program launch sites: https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/sounding-rockets/tracers/metals.html
                          [–]Waygzh1Med Student | Chemistry | Biology | Spanish 124 points125 points126 points  (41 children)
                          If we're getting that loose of a definition of "secret spraying program" then "cloud seeding" would fit the definition and the number should be 77/77 scientists agree chemtrail theory is legitimate.
                          It's an important note that I know PhDs that are 'experts' in fields that have some absolute whack-job ideas and opinions. E.g., a biochemistry PhD who does not believe in evolution and justifies it using irreducible complexity. Education can only help so much.
                          [–]4thaccount_heyooo [score hidden]  (34 children)
                          irreducible complexity.
                          Meaning they think because, for example, the human eye is so complex it must be intelligent design?
                          [–]Waygzh1Med Student | Chemistry | Biology | Spanish [score hidden]  (18 children)
                          The most common example, and one this specific professor uses, is the flagellum. The argument is that the structure is too complex, and the individual components supposedly have no function outside of their use within the flagellum, cooperatively. By this thought process, there is no way that they could have come about through evolution as the selective pressure would have had to work on codependent, anomalous structures. It is this reasoning that he believes that evolution cannot exist, even though he selectively breeds Escherichia coli strains in his lab.
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                            [–]youngsyr [score hidden]  (5 children)
                            It is this reasoning that he believes that evolution cannot exist, even though he selectively breeds Escherichia coli strains in his lab.
                            FWIW, I believe in evolution, but your example of why this prof should is logically flawed - it is an example of intelligent design with the prof as the creator!
                            [–]TheSirusKing [score hidden]  (0 children)
                            Artificial selection, the method in which you breed things, is a form of evolution, just not by natural selection. If he didn't believe in evolution at all, his work would be hypocritical.
                            [–]TwistedPerson [score hidden]  (0 children)
                            More of an example of artificial and guided selection. He isn't designing but guiding evolution. Designing would be CRISPA like techs.
                            [–]Jaredismyname [score hidden]  (6 children)
                            So far i don't think any examples of irreducible complexity have been made.
                            [–]Slippedhal0 [score hidden]  (3 children)
                            They think
                            Examples don't have to be valid for people to believe them, even scientists unfortunately.
                            [–]Prae_ [score hidden]  (0 children)
                            I think the complexity involved here is rather on the cellular level. And to be fair, it is astonishing that such complex autonomous machinery can emerge from biochemicals floating around in water. Typically, the ribosomes used in the translation process are astonishing machines that convert RNA to proteins. But it's far from a simple thing, and it's hard to see why it was present in sufficient quantity before a mutation made it essential to the cell's process.
                            Not to say that I 'believe' in that irreducible complexity thing, but today we still are far from understanding how in hell the essential building blocks and tools of life came around. Today, even the most 'primitive' organisms have the same basic tools. Storage support (DNA or RNA most likely in the early stage of life), expression mechanism (early stage of this would be folded RNA, but why and how did we migrate to protein instead ?) and some kind of enclosure mechanism (as soap bubbles are not stable, you need something that stabilize them : what was it before proteins ?).
                            Nobody's even sure what is essential to life. There are research that try to strip every gene one by one until we break the mechanism, to see what is essential. What's needed to run the basic 'programs' of life. Some research team proposed that early life emerged from the cracks in rock formations (which is the most reasonable theory on the topic IMHO). Point is, emergence of life is still really confusing.
                            Once you get your 'typical' cell running with genetic expression, it's really not hard to conceive how we got to today's complex life. But how did the tools for genetic expression emerge ? That's barely more than a guess at this point. I can definitely see how a religious biologist could put his faith here and claim a miraculous event.
                            EDIT : Here's a source (fairly) comprehensible that explores what the primordial RNA molecule would have needed to lead to us.
                            [–]v699dWW4Xx [score hidden]  (0 children)
                            One example I remember was a microorganism that had a propeller like appendage that it used to get around. They argued that all of the individual parts required to make that work couldn't have evolved naturally.
                            I disagree, but I think that was the general idea of irreducible complexity.
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                                                                                    [–]hotprof 14 points15 points16 points  (8 children)
                                                                                    Further, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
                                                                                    [–]qui_tam_gogh 33 points34 points35 points  (1 child)
                                                                                    Which is why the burden of proof lies on the one proposing the existence of something, i.e., we're positing that chem trails exist and failing to find evidence rather than trying to disprove them.
                                                                                    Another way to say it:
                                                                                    It's a burden of proof, not disproof.
                                                                                    [–]incoherent1 640 points641 points642 points  (172 children)
                                                                                    I'm amazed that research from atmospheric scientists was even needed for this to be disproved.
                                                                                    The more people required for a conspiracy the more likely it is to fail. For this level of conspiracy to work you'd need thousands of pilots mechanics and ground staff to keep quite. It just doesn't seem realistic to me.
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                                                                                                [–]onenose 91 points92 points93 points  (8 children)
                                                                                                While I am not familiar with the 'chemtrial' conspiriacies, it is a confirmed historical fact that the US Army conducted chemical and biological spraying experiments on urban populations throughout the 1950s and 1960s without informing or obtaining consent from residents:
                                                                                                [–]burlycabin [score hidden]  (6 children)
                                                                                                Yeah,and it wasn't kept a secret...
                                                                                                [–]chuckymcgee [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                Lots of information is declassified decades later. That doesn't mean it wasn't secret at the time.
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                                                                                                                  [–]Thegingerbread_man 37 points38 points39 points  (5 children)
                                                                                                                  Have you ever heard of compartmentalization? They used it for the Manhattan Project. Very few actually knew they we building an atomic bomb. You break great minds into small groups to achieve specific tasks without giving them the big picture. That's how you keep the big picture (whatever it may be) a secret.
                                                                                                                  [–]Lgorgeous [score hidden]  (2 children)
                                                                                                                  My grandpa helped engineer the city behind that bit... He had NO IDEA what was happening there, he simply did his job and later in his life received a few awards for it.
                                                                                                                  [–]lazylazycat [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                  Wow. At what stage did he find out what he contributed to? And how did he feel knowing the truth?
                                                                                                                  [–]fiddledebob 15 points16 points17 points  (39 children)
                                                                                                                  Well, if you weren't worried about where or how it got sprayed, you'd just adulterate the fuel with it. Only requires a conspiracist at one point in the supply chain. Seems like a pretty good way to get rid of some real nasty stuff. Just playing devil's advocate.
                                                                                                                  [–]spikeelsucko 45 points46 points47 points  (7 children)
                                                                                                                  (Replying in context of devil's advocate) the major issue there is the idea that the "spray" could survive being mixed, inserted into the turbine, burned with the fuel and survive the heat involved PLUS avoid notice by any number of people who are responsible for checking fuel comp and other issues, the other main option being that they have some sort of chemical sprayer incorporated into the engine but even then that begs the question how nobody responsible for maintenance would notice or comment on it.
                                                                                                                  [–]FlyingTheWire 39 points40 points41 points  (5 children)
                                                                                                                  Came here to say this more or less. Also worked as a line service technician. Your fuel goes through quality control about 5-6 times, including daily QC before it even goes into your plane. It also goes through about 7-8 filters by the time it's in your tanks. Believe me when I say someone would notice.
                                                                                                                  [–]montague68 8 points9 points10 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                  Aviation fuel is sampled and audited on a regular basis. A basic fuel-monitoring program looks something like this:
                                                                                                                  [–]itsalreadybeenthrown 14 points15 points16 points  (11 children)
                                                                                                                  That just pushes the massive conspiracy back to the refinery staff and fuel supply chain, which still involves tens of thousands of people.
                                                                                                                  Then whatever you're putting in it needs to not be destroyed when it's burned at a thousand degrees. Not sure what that thing would be -- and I've never heard a conspiracy theorist ever solidly identify the alleged substance either.
                                                                                                                  [–]ttlens 9 points10 points11 points  (3 children)
                                                                                                                  Then whatever you're putting in it needs to not be destroyed when it's burned at a thousand degrees.
                                                                                                                  More importantly, it needs to not destroy the plane's engines. Mixing random crap into jet fuel doesn't seem likely to end well for the plane.
                                                                                                                  [–]vidro3 10 points11 points12 points  (5 children)
                                                                                                                  whatever it is, it can melt steel beams.
                                                                                                                  [–]helpinghat 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                  Oh my god. It all makes sense now.
                                                                                                                  [–]eldeeder 18 points19 points20 points  (1 child)
                                                                                                                  Jet fuel isn't like a cocktail. You can't just add something to it and have it dissipate in a jet engine like a cropduster.
                                                                                                                  You can run this experiment yourself. Add a gallon of water to your cars gas tank and let me know what happens.
                                                                                                                  [–]delventhalz 14 points15 points16 points  (15 children)
                                                                                                                  If you look into this particular nonsense, they believe that there are passenger planes flying around with no passengers, but full of "chem" tanks. Even if you scale it back to some sort of fuel additive, who is manufacturing this fuel? What about the engines that are able to process it? The mechanics that service those? There is literally no manufactured product today that isn't looked at by thousands of people. Or more.
                                                                                                                  [–]Innalibra 7 points8 points9 points  (9 children)
                                                                                                                  What I don't understand about that conspiracy is the actual goal of it. Is it to poison or drug people? If so, it seems like a pretty ineffective delivery system. Whatever is released at that altitude is going to be so diluted when it reaches your lungs that it'd have to highly concentrated at its source, meaning you can't just mix a bit of it into some fuel. It'd be a million times easier just to put something in the drinking water.
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                                                                                                                    [–]Nole_in_ATX [score hidden]  (8 children)
                                                                                                                    Meteorologist here. After explaining how contrails form in the atmosphere to tin-foil hat wearing wackos for years, I've given up. It just makes them crazier.
                                                                                                                    Bonus Forecast: Depending on where you are in the world, it gon' rain.
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                                                                                                                      [–]80345893247598238945 [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                      But that's not science. That's anecdote and opinion. Plenty of other subs for that.
                                                                                                                      [–]gr25 18 points19 points20 points  (1 child)
                                                                                                                      If we're going to talk about stratospheric aerosol injection we have to consider whether or not we want to proceed with the technology and if it should be public knowledge that such a program is in place. It's a highly politically charged topic.
                                                                                                                      Here's are some remarks by CIA Director John O. Brennan at the Council on Foreign Relations, Washington, DC. June 29th 2016.
                                                                                                                      "Another example is the array of technologies—often referred to collectively as geoengineering—that potentially could help reverse the warming effects of global climate change. One that has gained my personal attention is stratospheric aerosol injection, or SAI, a method of seeding the stratosphere with particles that can help reflect the sun’s heat, in much the same way that volcanic eruptions do.
                                                                                                                      An SAI program could limit global temperature increases, reducing some risks associated with higher temperatures and providing the world economy additional time to transition from fossil fuels. The process is also relatively inexpensive—the National Research Council estimates that a fully deployed SAI program would cost about $10 billion yearly.
                                                                                                                      As promising as it may be, moving forward on SAI would raise a number of challenges for our government and for the international community. On the technical side, greenhouse gas emission reductions would still have to accompany SAI to address other climate change effects, such as ocean acidification, because SAI alone would not remove greenhouse gases from the atmosphere.
                                                                                                                      On the geopolitical side, the technology’s potential to alter weather patterns and benefit certain regions at the expense of others could trigger sharp opposition by some nations. Others might seize on SAI’s benefits and back away from their commitment to carbon dioxide reductions. And, as with other breakthrough technologies, global norms and standards are lacking to guide the deployment and implementation of SAI."
                                                                                                                      [–]Herculius [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                      Also,
                                                                                                                      People cloud seed all over the world to increase rainfall. It's not some nefarious chemicals but there are definitely aspects of truth to the claim.
                                                                                                                      Basically my point is that it's better to clarify the subject to tinfoil people than it is to just tell them it's all ridiculous
                                                                                                                      [–]genryaku 15 points16 points17 points  (4 children)
                                                                                                                      This seems completely unnecessary. What do they expect that this will somehow convince the people who believe in chem trails?
                                                                                                                      [–]jarfil [score hidden]  (1 child)
                                                                                                                      If could serve as an argument to show to people not yet convinced... but yeah, those susceptible of believing this stuff, probably will end up believing it anyway.
                                                                                                                      [–]genryaku [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                      If could serve as an argument to show to people not yet convinced...
                                                                                                                      No it couldn't. You'd have an easier time teaching a dog advanced calculus.
                                                                                                                      [–]countfragington [score hidden]  (1 child)
                                                                                                                      That's the problem with these types of conspiracy theories. If you believe the government and commercial aviation are all in on it, then you probably assume the scientists who were part of the study are in on it too. People are going to do what they need to to validate their claims, no matter how little evidence supports them.
                                                                                                                      [–]genryaku [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                      It's not that I'm really dismissive of all conspiracies, but I believe in a culture of corruption fueled by questionable motives. With the DNC it was obvious what it was, they had from the beginning boarded team Hillary.
                                                                                                                      But this is like the flat earth theory, I wouldn't know where to begin criticizing something this stupid. You cannot reason people out of a position that they did not reason themselves into.
                                                                                                                      [–]Chris_Danger_ 119 points120 points121 points  (32 children)
                                                                                                                      Sadly no amount of evidence or science is going to change anyone's minds. Belief is a profoundly irrational phenomenon.
                                                                                                                      [–]MrSleepin 10 points11 points12 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                      If anything, it will further strengthen their irrational belief in the conspiracy!
                                                                                                                      "The scientists are in on it mannnnnn! Where's my aluminum foil!"
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                                                                                                                        [–]Orangebeardo -2 points-1 points0 points  (5 children)
                                                                                                                        Belief is poison. Stop believing shit and start knowing your shit.
                                                                                                                        [–]WhoH8in 5 points6 points7 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                        How about understanding? I think that's a better word for what you're describing.
                                                                                                                        [–]hoodlessgrim [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                        Lots of people in this sub 'believe' in all these studies. How many do their experiments to make sure they actually know their shit?
                                                                                                                        [–]cleroth 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                        Unless you're conducting every experiment yourself, you're also believing.
                                                                                                                        [–]edwinthedutchman -2 points-1 points0 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                        There's not very much to know, because there are very few certainties; here are a few things we "knew" in the past:
                                                                                                                        The Earth s flat. The stars are lights painted on a sphere around the earth. The sun, moon and planets revolve around the earth. The sky is filled with aethar. The universe is static. The atom is the smallest building block. Nothing can escape a black hole.
                                                                                                                        The best we can do is say that we think we know, but there's always a chance that a discovery tomorrow will turn one of our most fundamental beliefs upside down.
                                                                                                                        I would say, stop knowing and start believing, and knowing that it's only a belief
                                                                                                                        [–]cleroth -1 points0 points1 point  (1 child)
                                                                                                                        Why are you so black and white? Sure, it's not going to sway the crazy ones, and while I haven't really researched this chem trail thing, I can't really say I'd be surprised if it was real. I don't think it is, but it's nice to have as much comfirmation as possible.
                                                                                                                        [–]peteroh9BA | Astrophysical and Planetary Sciences [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                        Because you don't really know anything about the chemtrail conspiracy, don't think that I'm making fun of you, but it's probably the stupidest conspiracy theory. While the the moon landing and 9/11 conspiracies, for example are based on shitty evidence that's easily explained away, chemtrails don't even meet that level. It's just saying that contrails, a natural phenomenon, are actually chemicals from a conspiracy involving the US government, as well as everyone in the airline industry, that has an end goal of mind control or sterilization or just about anything unachievable/undesirable.
                                                                                                                        Okay, I guess it's not as stupid as the people who believe the Earth is flat but it is much less unreasonable than the other "popular" conspiracies.
                                                                                                                        [–]Exqwusemoa [score hidden]  (1 child)
                                                                                                                        Like the belief that conspiracies don't exist.
                                                                                                                        [–]ZeboTheClown [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                        They do exist. Just not this one.
                                                                                                                        [–]dargobleedsclear 403 points404 points405 points  (233 children)
                                                                                                                        Conspiracy theories are like religion, the more facts you throw at it, the more entrenched become the believers. This "study" will only result in more gas mask and tinfoil hat sales.
                                                                                                                        [–]Nevergoneskiingman 360 points361 points362 points  (166 children)
                                                                                                                        Just because there are very VERY dumb conspiracy theories out there doesn't mean the concept of a conspiracy is inherently ridiculous. They really need to be assessed on a case by case basis in order to weed out the dumb ones, such as the lizard people conspiracy, but not disregard the more than plausible ones (think Iran Contra or the recently discovered link between Saudi Arabia and the 9/11 hijackers). Edit: with "recently divorced" I meant the recent publication of the 28 pages, making the link between the 9/11 hijackers and the Saudi gov pretty much irrefutable. I am aware this was know to those willing to look past the official US narrative for a long time.
                                                                                                                        [–]dustybizzle 41 points42 points43 points  (23 children)
                                                                                                                        MKUltra is another good (bad) example.
                                                                                                                        [–]Remember_1776 27 points28 points29 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                        There's also the Gulf of Tonkin Incident , which directly resulted in 'Nam, and the Bay of Pigs...
                                                                                                                        [–][deleted]  (19 children)
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                                                                                                                          [–]Volraith 96 points97 points98 points  (9 children)
                                                                                                                          Recently discovered? All but one of them happened to be Saudi.
                                                                                                                          [–]SgtBaxter 81 points82 points83 points  (6 children)
                                                                                                                          Yes, we knew that the very next day thanks to them being stupid and leaving stuff in their cars.
                                                                                                                          However, I believe the comment is about the link between those terrorists and the Saudi government actually helping. I mean, a group of Americans could go and bomb another country without the American government being involved.
                                                                                                                          [–]Nevergoneskiingman 25 points26 points27 points  (3 children)
                                                                                                                          Yes that was indeed what I was referring to
                                                                                                                          [–]MightyMetricBatman 8 points9 points10 points  (2 children)
                                                                                                                          Saudi Arabian government officials involved in terrorism isn't exactly new either. That's why Saudi official, billionaire, owner of Saudi National Commercial Bank and fake charity Muwafaq (blessed relief) Foundation, Khalid bin Mahfouz used Britain as a libel tourism destination against journalists who would expose Saudi involvement in terrorism. Most famously against Rachel Ehrenreich's book Funding Evil and Millard Burr's book Alms for Jihad. And in total sued in Britain for libel over 40 times because that's how obvious his involvement in terror financing was.
                                                                                                                          [–]nastdrummer [score hidden]  (1 child)
                                                                                                                          Saudi Arabian government officials involved in terrorism isn't exactly new either.
                                                                                                                          Neither is the US government engagement in large scale conspiracies.
                                                                                                                          [–]mrtomich [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                          Or in terrorism
                                                                                                                          [–]RudegarWithFunnyHat 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                          yeah same with them all being men can't be pinned on our glorious gender! :P
                                                                                                                          [–]MaesterMagoo 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                          I thought we discovered the government wasn't involved but members of the royal family, which is huge and does not comprise the government, were involved.
                                                                                                                          [–]spockdad 5 points6 points7 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                          I believe the commenter probably meant to say 'recently confirmed'.
                                                                                                                          [–]gavy101 [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                          Does it not concern you then that your government then invaded Afghanistan?
                                                                                                                          [–]kissbang23 47 points48 points49 points  (5 children)
                                                                                                                          I had a friend that used to rant about the government spying on us with our phones and computers, we were in our early 20s and it went on for a couple years. He was always trying to get us to read the terms and agreements, no one could believe he had gone off the deep end at such an early age.
                                                                                                                          After the Snowden revelations, he was just like "told you" and completely let it go.
                                                                                                                          [–]CarlosWeiner 14 points15 points16 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                          Was his name Mos Def?
                                                                                                                          From 'Mathematics" in 2000
                                                                                                                          "40% of Americans own a cell phone so they can hear everything that you say when you ain't home. I guess Michael Jackson was right, you are not alone, rock your hard hat, black, cuz you in the terror dome."
                                                                                                                          [–]Gel214th 23 points24 points25 points  (1 child)
                                                                                                                          Guy just needed validation. As social creatures It's frustrating when you know you're right and everyone around you thinks you're crazy or full of it.
                                                                                                                          [–]Dokkaan -4 points-3 points-2 points  (1 child)
                                                                                                                          But he had no way of knowing he was right to be fair
                                                                                                                          [–]TheSirusKing [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                          Did he, though? Its quite openly known that back in WW2 and the cold war, britian for example, monitored all phone lines and during the war would actually listen into all conversations, to avoid spilling secrets.
                                                                                                                          [–]elchupahombre 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                          I'm sure this was already planned but the patriot act basically gave those powers away and it's not as if people weren't warning that it was going to happen. Same thing about the run up to the second war in iraq.
                                                                                                                          You really have to be naive or not paying attention to think these notions were ever preposterous in the first place. 😕
                                                                                                                          Want to see something really scary? Check out Sesame Credit.
                                                                                                                          [–]setsar [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                          After all that, did you question the quality of your own judgment or continue to drop the "tin foil hat" insult like your shit doesn't stink?
                                                                                                                          [–]Kjbcctdsayfg 24 points25 points26 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                          or the recently discovered link between Saudi Arabia and the 9/11 hijackers
                                                                                                                          This was not recently discovered. It was already known and partially publicised in the original 2003 report on 9/11. The only thing that has changed recently is that the names some of these individuals have been released.
                                                                                                                          [–]Dicknosed_Shitlicker 39 points40 points41 points  (17 children)
                                                                                                                          I feel like the idea of a conspiracy fits the famous saying about the Devil, that "the smartest thing he ever did was convince the world he doesn't exist."
                                                                                                                          Yes, there are some extremely stupid conspiracy theories out there. But there are areal conspiracies. Look at Enron and the engineered energy crisis. That was a real conspiracy.
                                                                                                                          [–]Orangebeardo 43 points44 points45 points  (9 children)
                                                                                                                          The whole word conspiracy has become useless, mostly because what people think of when they hear conspiracy theory. We should just call it by what it is really; a crime.
                                                                                                                          [–]Dicknosed_Shitlicker 7 points8 points9 points  (1 child)
                                                                                                                          Just calling it crime loses something. Burglary is a crime. When high-level politicians or administrators work in secret with wealthy individuals to set policy that defrauds the public or saves them from prosecution, that is more than just crime (although it is also crime). I agree that "conspiracy" has lost its power as a word but the reality it describes is nonetheless real.
                                                                                                                          [–]RoseEsque 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                          I think the word you are looking for is treason.
                                                                                                                          [–][deleted]  (1 child)
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                                                                                                                            [–]CourageousCapybara 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
                                                                                                                            But it is a conspiracy.
                                                                                                                            [–]Orangebeardo 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
                                                                                                                            Imo something doesn't have to be illegal to be a Crime, however dumb that sounds. Immoral/unethical actions should count too. No one should have to tell you artificially manipulating prices to gain more profits is bad. Same goes for Skinner box microtransactions and the like IMO. It's all the same; preying on peoples weaknesses to steal their money, while providing a service that's just not worth as much.
                                                                                                                            [–]CourageousCapybara 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                            Okay, but a conspiracy isn't defined by "illegal". It can be the same as what you said, the only difference is coordination between officials to make it happen. Like you said, monopolizing a market may not be illegal but it is a conspiracy.
                                                                                                                            [–]snmnky9490 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
                                                                                                                            I don't think all conspiracies would necessarily be crimes
                                                                                                                            [–]imjusttryingtodome 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                            A conspiracy is just a plan to commit a crime.
                                                                                                                            [–]ChornWork2 -2 points-1 points0 points  (4 children)
                                                                                                                            Enron was greedy fucks being greedy and covering up their own fraud. Not much of a conspiracy beyond that. Sure a different scale than most financial frauds, but that's basically it.
                                                                                                                            [–]DarQraven [score hidden]  (2 children)
                                                                                                                            The difference between that and a conspiracy is whether it's been proven or not. I could just as easily say Operation Himmler was just Nazis being Nazis and producing propaganda, and not a conspiracy to justify the invasion of Poland.
                                                                                                                            [–]ChornWork2 [score hidden]  (1 child)
                                                                                                                            me and my cousin can 'conspire' to rob a waffle house, that doesn't make it a "conspiracy theory" if we get away with it.
                                                                                                                            edit: the fucks at enron didn't have an agenda other than enriching themselves and then covering up their fuck-ups. If there were actually doing it for some grander purpose, you could start calling it a conspiracy theory.
                                                                                                                            [–]oblivioustoobvious [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                            A conspiracy is two people conspiring to do harm or something illegal. It's that simple.
                                                                                                                            A conspiracy theory is somebody speculating about a conspiracy without evidence.
                                                                                                                            [–]Porencephaly1MD | Pediatric Neurosurgery 11 points12 points13 points  (1 child)
                                                                                                                            Yeah, we knew about the Saudi link immediately. Our government just failed to formally acknowledge it because reasons1.
                                                                                                                            1: strategic partnership to preserve Middle Eastern stability2.
                                                                                                                            2: oil
                                                                                                                            [–]imjusttryingtodome 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                            OIL - Operation Iraqi Liberation
                                                                                                                            [–]VentralTegmentalArea 37 points38 points39 points  (43 children)
                                                                                                                            I think you're confusing regular conspiracy with grand conspiracy theories. Sure, conspiracies exist and are uncovered all the time. But never has a grand conspiracy theory later been proven to be true.
                                                                                                                            And no, Saudis funding 9/11 is not a grand conspiracy. 9/11 as an inside job, with GW in on it, is though. Don't get those confused either. It makes sense that some Saudis might funnel money into extremist groups. It doesn't make sense that GW Bush helped orchestrate the attacks.
                                                                                                                            [–]faern 33 points34 points35 points  (20 children)
                                                                                                                            How about massive government spying program, is that grand conspiracy too or a regular one. Go back few year you be called crazy if you talk about goverment spying on it citizen. Now it just another fact that nobody cares about.
                                                                                                                            [–]Morzas 14 points15 points16 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                            That's because ordinary people think (fallaciously) "I have nothing to hide, so it isn't a problem."
                                                                                                                            [–]user_account_deleted 8 points9 points10 points  (1 child)
                                                                                                                            No you wouldn't be called crazy, at least not by anyone with half a brain and a little knowledge of history. Anyone who knows what McCarthyism is and how the FBI investigated millions of citizens for communist ties knows the government has no problem spying on its citizens illegally. Anyone believing they stopped doing it would not be a thinking person. The point at which you get called a nut is when you claim to know of specific programs with no corroborating evidence.
                                                                                                                            [–]PencilvesterStallone 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
                                                                                                                            No one would have thought it was crazy talk considering the fact that the technology to spy on phones has been around for awhile and things like the Patriot Act were passed.
                                                                                                                            I don't know about you, but I just assumed every government with the technology available did it, and I'm pretty confident most do.
                                                                                                                            [–]oblivioustoobvious [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                            It's funny to see this continually said now but if you went back preSnowden the general public consensus if you said that the govt spies on all citizens you're a conspiracy nut job.
                                                                                                                            People are quick to insult conspiracy theorists but once it becomes proven, "well anyone paying attention was obviously aware"
                                                                                                                            [–][deleted]  (11 children)
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                                                                                                                              [–]dank_imagemacro 12 points13 points14 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                              The idea that the US fired first had LONG been considered the realm of "grand conspiracy theories" until it was confirmed.
                                                                                                                              [–]675_Daytona 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                              So what is "grand" conspiracy and what just regular conspiracy?
                                                                                                                              If you told people 5 years ago that everything they do and say over the web is collected they would call you crazy, then came Snowden etc.
                                                                                                                              [–]HamiltonIsGreat 3 points4 points5 points  (10 children)
                                                                                                                              I think you're confusing regular conspiracy with grand conspiracy theories
                                                                                                                              whats the difference.
                                                                                                                              It doesn't make sense that GW Bush helped orchestrate the attacks.
                                                                                                                              We already know there was a conspiracy on their behalf to present Iraq as a nuclear threat to start a war, and it's widely accepted who was behind the Moscow apartment buildings bombings, so why does it make sense for the russians to orchestrate it to start a war with chechnya but doesnt make sense for Bush to orchestrate it to start his own war?
                                                                                                                              [–]WillieM96 0 points1 point2 points  (3 children)
                                                                                                                              Lots of things "make sense" but without evidence, it's just a wild idea. If you want me to accept your idea, you have to give me more than circumstantial evidence.
                                                                                                                              If I inherited a lot of money from my grandfather when he passes away, it would "make sense" that I might have killed him but you can't accuse me of it until you actually have evidence of a crime being committed.
                                                                                                                              [–]HamiltonIsGreat -2 points-1 points0 points  (2 children)
                                                                                                                              What idea. Did you even bother to read the post? Sigh.
                                                                                                                              [–]WillieM96 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
                                                                                                                              If you're saying my post agrees with the sentiment in your post, then I have misread your comment and I apologize. What point were you trying to make?
                                                                                                                              [–]HamiltonIsGreat [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                              At no point did I claim that making sense equals doing it. So i'm not sure why you made that assumption especially since i quoted the exact counterpoint by Ventral.
                                                                                                                              [–][deleted]  (5 children)
                                                                                                                              [deleted]
                                                                                                                                [–]Tinie_Snipah 1 point2 points3 points  (2 children)
                                                                                                                                Watergate?
                                                                                                                                [–]botbotbobot 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                Kind of pathetically harmless viewed through the lens of today's political arena. Sad, eh?
                                                                                                                                [–]lanboyo 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                Had at most 20 people involved. Not a grand conspiracy.
                                                                                                                                [–]Jozarin 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                I like to imagine that G. W. Bush was planning to bring down the towers on 9/12, but Al-Qaeda got to it first.
                                                                                                                                [–]King-of-Evil [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                George W was actually flying the plane!
                                                                                                                                George W has 7 letters, so does Captain!!!
                                                                                                                                [–]machinich_phylum [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                "It makes sense that some Saudis might funnel money into extremist groups. It doesn't make sense that GW Bush helped orchestrate the attacks."
                                                                                                                                I don't know whether it makes sense for Bush specifically to be in the know, but it is rather naive to claim that it makes no sense for any actors within the military-industrial complex (and that includes political actors) to either orchestrate terrorist attacks or simply allow them to happen. Look at everything that happened in the wake of 9/11. Those attacks were the catalyst for significant change, both at home and abroad. The neo-cons behind the 'Project For a New American Century' were rather explicit about their geo-political goals and what would be necessary to achieve them. Even if Bush didn't personally agree with or even understand this view, he was surrounded by true believers in his administration.
                                                                                                                                It is a mistake to think other governments or peoples around the world may commit nefarious acts for their own reasons, but that one's own government or society is somehow immune.
                                                                                                                                [–]bitcoin_noob -2 points-1 points0 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                Why does it not make sense that certain high level people in the US government helped the attacks happen?
                                                                                                                                It would sure help explain the hundreds of 'coincidences' that lined up on the day which allowed the attack to slip through.
                                                                                                                                [–][deleted]  (17 children)
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                                                                                                                                  [–]Clepto_06 9 points10 points11 points  (5 children)
                                                                                                                                  All of the government spying programs were the realm of paranoid conspiracy theorists and Hollywood movies about paranoid conspiracy theorists until Snowden shed light on them. And look what happened; people still call you a conspiracy nut if you try to talk about these things negatively, or even objectively point out all of the horrible things that can be done with these programs.
                                                                                                                                  [–]cheeba_inu 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
                                                                                                                                  people still call you a conspiracy nut if you try to talk about these things negatively, or even objectively point out all of the horrible things that can be done with these programs.
                                                                                                                                  What? No they don't, unless you're spinning it a certain way. This is not an issue that just went away. I am going to direct you to /r/outside.
                                                                                                                                  A secretive government organization abusing electronic surveillance is also a far cry from getting pilots, refuelers, aircraft mechanics, (not to mention just about every educated person in the appropriate fields) to all go along with a conspiracy to spray the population from the sky.
                                                                                                                                  [–]Arc_Torch [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                  Not to mention all the declassified projects that lead to what Snowden leaked, going back to the 80s and 90s. The Snowden leaks weren't completely unexpected.
                                                                                                                                  [–]itisnotatumah1 [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                  Who are you talking to? Most people I know just shrug and say they have nothing to hide.
                                                                                                                                  [–]nyaaLobby -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                  it would destroy people's entire identities. their entire life believing something and then having to realise its not true? nope cognitive dissonance kicks in and they convince themselves otherwise.
                                                                                                                                  [–]loueed 23 points24 points25 points  (4 children)
                                                                                                                                  It's almost like the mass disbelief in conspiracy's was designed to keep the majority distracted from government and corporate coruption.
                                                                                                                                  [–]slothman420 14 points15 points16 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                  And thus conspiracy debates always devolve into the "Sheep or Shill" argument.
                                                                                                                                  [–]JeffXBO 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                  Interesting read, thank you.
                                                                                                                                  [–]ATypingDog 3 points4 points5 points  (1 child)
                                                                                                                                  Wow you don't believe in lizard people? Have you SEEN American politicians?
                                                                                                                                  [–]RightInDaSpools 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                  It's the only explanation at this point
                                                                                                                                  [–]skewp 4 points5 points6 points  (1 child)
                                                                                                                                  recently discovered link between Saudi Arabia and the 9/11 hijackers
                                                                                                                                  "Recent"? You mean the one discovered back in 2001?
                                                                                                                                  [–]MisterFatt 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                  He's referring to the recently declassified parts of the 9/11 commission report that officially detailed the links between the Saudi govt and the hijackers. Stuff that was basically assumed but is now officially admitted by our government
                                                                                                                                  [–]pneumatichorseman 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                  Just to be clear, we've known the 9/11 hijackers are Saudi for a long time.
                                                                                                                                  The US government passed a law making an exemption to a 1976 law providing foreign nations immunity to US lawsuits.
                                                                                                                                  Nobody has proven anything other than that Congress is willing to let people waste a lot of money on lawsuits that won't prove anything.
                                                                                                                                  [–]silverfox762 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                  "Recently discovered link"?!?! People in the intelligence world (and many others who don't get their news from American media) have been talking about this since 9/12. Of course, if you go to any city in Egypt, "everyone knows" there were no Jews in the twin towers on 9/11. This is obviously because the Hebrew Hotline called them and told them not to go to work that day. They've been talking about that since 9/12, too, so there ya have it. ;)
                                                                                                                                  [–]Classtoise 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
                                                                                                                                  Actually the lizard people one becomes a lot less crazy and a lot more unsettling if you believe the notion that it's anti-Semitic code to make people think they're crazy rather than hateful.
                                                                                                                                  It makes sense, too. People are more comfortable brushing off a dude who thinks giant alien lizards took over than they are the dude who thinks Jewish people are inherently evil masterminds.
                                                                                                                                  [–]Nevergoneskiingman 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
                                                                                                                                  A conspiracy theory about a conspiracy theory
                                                                                                                                  [–]Classtoise 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                  Well, considering the guy who coined the theory about lizard people is a known anti-Semite I'd say it's got a leg to stand on.
                                                                                                                                  [–]johnnypebs 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                  weed out the dumb ones, such as the lizard people conspiracy
                                                                                                                                  Nice try, sleestak.
                                                                                                                                  [–]thejesusbus 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                  Ya no need to be comparing tin foil hat wearing, meth smoking, enlightened, third eye utalizing conspiracy theorists to religion. That's just insulting to conspiracy theorists
                                                                                                                                  [–]Achalemoipas [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                  It wasn't recently discovered.
                                                                                                                                  The hijackers were Saudis until the government said it was Osama (a Saudi), so they invaded Afghanistan and then threw a human-shaped plastic bag in the ocean, that's supposed to be Osama, who was in Pakistan, of course.
                                                                                                                                  I think you have to be stupid to believe any of this shit.
                                                                                                                                  [–]225555 [score hidden]  (1 child)
                                                                                                                                  Iran contra really happened tho. No conspiracy about it.
                                                                                                                                  [–]Nevergoneskiingman [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                  Before it was proven to be right it was considered a conspiracy theory.
                                                                                                                                  [–]CursedLemon [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                  or the recently discovered link between Saudi Arabia and the 9/11 hijackers
                                                                                                                                  AKA the worst-kept secret in history
                                                                                                                                  [–]delventhalz -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                  I feel really comfortable operating under the heuristic that all conspiracy theories are dumb, and all people who believe in them are dumb. Doesn't mean I won't make exceptions based on a preponderance of evidence for the 1 out of 100 that aren't utter horse shit.
                                                                                                                                  [–]ChornWork2 -1 points0 points1 point  (2 children)
                                                                                                                                  doesn't mean the concept of a conspiracy is inherently ridiculous
                                                                                                                                  of any given conspiracy, perhaps. But the point against conspiracy theories is the irrational and unsubstantiated basis of belief, as well as the psychology around it. Conspiracy theorists tend to believe in multiple (often frequent, even conflicting) theories, and not only reject the likely explanation for the event but also believe strongly in alternate unsubstantiated causes that typically involve complex narratives of grand forces conspiring against us.
                                                                                                                                  [–]Phyltre [score hidden]  (1 child)
                                                                                                                                  The principles surrounding capitalism itself only function because human beings scheme ways to extract profit from each other and can be influenced by advertising and other PR principles. Viewed through a certain lens all large companies are "conspiring" to make money off of consumers, and regularly run afoul of the law. Millions are in on it! But it's just the status quo. People conspire all the time.
                                                                                                                                  [–]ChornWork2 [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                  there's a difference between a "conspiracy theory" and literally just conspiring to do something. folks conspire shit all the time...
                                                                                                                                  [–]Punchabearinnamouf 8 points9 points10 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                  "Of course they'd say that!"
                                                                                                                                  [–]granadesnhorseshoes 5 points6 points7 points  (1 child)
                                                                                                                                  This entire survey and "report" seem designed specifically to give the crazies just enough to question it's validity.
                                                                                                                                  What evidence did they use when forming their opinions? What did the 72nd guy say? Why did someone even bother to legitimize the entire thing with this survey in the first place if its so stupidly insane?
                                                                                                                                  [–][deleted]  (12 children)
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                                                                                                                                    [–]legitimategrapes 3 points4 points5 points  (1 child)
                                                                                                                                    This paper just proves that the conspirators are powerful enough to bribe all the world's scientists, or just replace them with doppelgangers. How anyone could see this paper and still doubt the conspiracy is beyond me.
                                                                                                                                    [–]DMPDrugs 5 points6 points7 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                    76 scientists. Back when MK Ultra was around, most scientists didn't know about that, either. Why would unafillitated scientists know anything about secret government programs?
                                                                                                                                    [–]DTru1222 0 points1 point2 points  (17 children)
                                                                                                                                    Is it just me or is it becoming "cool" to believe in conspiracy theories?
                                                                                                                                    I am seeing more and more people who believe in the "big bad man out to get us all".
                                                                                                                                    Chem Trails, fake moon landing, flat earth, Illuminati... Remember back when these people were constantly made fun of in movies? Pepperidge Farms remembers..
                                                                                                                                    [–]crashfrog 12 points13 points14 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                    Sure, but the people who made fun of those people were, themselves, believing either in the Biblical devil or some kind of amorphous animating force called "evil". Either way it was about explaining the misfortune of the world as the result of, or even the plan of, a factor that could be combatted and stopped, and not just something that happens without reason. Ultimately, all conspiracy theories trace back to the impulse to explain the world in this way. As it happens, sometimes some human misery is caused by the direct actions of others working in secret; see the Tuskeegee Syphilis Experiment for an example of some 200 people at ten different institutions working together over decades to knowingly cause astonishing suffering to almost a thousand black men, women, and their children.
                                                                                                                                    [–]TheBigBadDuke 12 points13 points14 points  (4 children)
                                                                                                                                    Yes, I do.
                                                                                                                                    "The American motion picture is the greatest unconscious carrier of propaganda in the world today. It is a great distributor for ideas and opinions. The motion picture can standardize the ideas and habits of a nation. Because pictures are made to meet market demands, they reflect, emphasize and even exaggerate broad popular tendencies, rather than stimulate new ideas and opinions. The motion picture avails itself only of ideas and facts which are in vogue. As the newspaper seeks to purvey news, it seeks to purvey entertainment."
                                                                                                                                    "The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ...We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. This is a logical result of the way in which our democratic society is organized. Vast numbers of human beings must cooperate in this manner if they are to live together as a smoothly functioning society. ...In almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons...who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires which control the public mind.” 
                                                                                                                                    Edward Bernays, Propaganda 1928
                                                                                                                                    [–]DTru1222 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                    So they used to make fun of conspiracy theorists to control our minds. Now they don't do it nearly as much. So what are they trying to make us think now?
                                                                                                                                    [–]Lady_Luxx 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
                                                                                                                                    Well done. You're one of the few people in this sub who aren't completely asleep.
                                                                                                                                    [–]kbjay [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                    Check out the Law of One
                                                                                                                                    [–]VAAC 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                    Nah, in my experience it's cool to sarcastically mention conspiracy theories. I've laughed about lizard people and 9/11 inside jobs.
                                                                                                                                    [–]anomalousBits 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                    There's always been a cachet to conspiracy. JFK was a big one when I was growing up. The Illuminatus! trilogy came out in 1975. I remember seeing Capricorn One in the theaters (the movie that spawned the "black helicopters" theme.) The X-Files was a huge hit. The first "V" series came out in 1984.
                                                                                                                                    Somehow the Internet seems to have polarized discourse around conspiracies. Now we have people like Alex Jones, to whom everything is a conspiracy. Likewise, we have a lot of access to conspiracy busting information, so JFK conspiracies and others seem much less compelling.
                                                                                                                                    [–]ChornWork2 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                    Probably self-selection... cynicism sets in as you get older, and those tending in that direction seek it out (confirmation bias). Certainly easier to do that with the internet.
                                                                                                                                    [–]misslilitheredhead [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                    Not according to my neighbor's bumper stickers.
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                                                                                                                                            [–]GuySimile [score hidden]  (1 child)
                                                                                                                                            Why are the top comments removed?
                                                                                                                                            [–]wanktarded [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                            Take your pick:
                                                                                                                                            On-topic. No memes/jokes/etc.
                                                                                                                                            No abusive/offensive/spam comments.
                                                                                                                                            Non-professional personal anecdotes may be removed
                                                                                                                                            Arguments dismissing established scientific theories must contain substantial, peer-reviewed evidence
                                                                                                                                            No medical advice!
                                                                                                                                            [–]OpinesOnThings 11 points12 points13 points  (3 children)
                                                                                                                                            Authorities reject conspiracy as true, that would necessarily have to involve them if it were true.
                                                                                                                                            I mean, I'm no conspiracy theorist but I don't get why people fail to understand what it is these people doubt. If you think the media is being used to manipulate the public for political power (which it is), would you trust a media story saying it's not?
                                                                                                                                            [–]culturedrobot [score hidden]  (2 children)
                                                                                                                                            No, I wouldn't trust the media, but I would generally trust a scientist. To any scientist worth their salt, lying and falsifying data is one of the cardinal sins.
                                                                                                                                            [–]OpinesOnThings [score hidden]  (1 child)
                                                                                                                                            Yes but they don't trust the authorities or those with links to them. That's what I'm saying, the media was just an example more people can relate to.
                                                                                                                                            To put scientists on a moral pedestal would be silly, but then any doubt is enough to mean they'd have to take a leap of faith. It's not about there never being enough evidence, but rather the initial skepticism from known corruption creating a layer of distrust to established streams of knowledge. When you can't trust mainstream streams of information, which to be fair is a reasonable position, you end up cut off and looking to equally unreliable alternatives that emphasise anti-authority slants instead.
                                                                                                                                            [–]culturedrobot [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                            Right but then the onus is on these people to know the difference between plain old authority and people speaking from an actual position of knowledge.
                                                                                                                                            Conflating the two as just a general "authority" that is to be distrusted at all costs gets you nowhere closer to finding out the truth in the matter, it only serves to back up the narrative one wishes to believe.
                                                                                                                                            Skepticism is healthy, but knowing when to accept the analysis of a professional on the matter being discussed is important as well. Conspiracy theorists who are endlessly skeptical and can't be swayed away from the narrative they want to believe ultimately don't matter. Either your opinion changes as new evidence is presented or you don't get to be part of the conversation. If that makes them emphasize their anti-authority slants, oh well.
                                                                                                                                            [–]Shiroi_Kage 9 points10 points11 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                            Why are we even wasting time talking about this nonsense? It's literally going to cause no impact whatsoever. Unlike climate change and vaccinations, those people have no hope in hell of changing anything. What are they going to change exactly? Stop planes altogether?
                                                                                                                                            [–]Icyveins86 8 points9 points10 points  (3 children)
                                                                                                                                            It depresses me that we have people wasting their time on this when they could be doing something new and exciting, but since a significant part of the population chooses to reject scientific studies and just believe crackpot conspiracies or mythology.
                                                                                                                                            [–]Platinumdogshit [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                            My roommate thinks the moon is hollow and that microwaves cause cancer
                                                                                                                                            [–]EgoTrip26 [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                            If it's any consolation, it was not a true study, but a survey that queried scientists about whether or not they had come across evidence of any program to spray chemicals.
                                                                                                                                            [–]Ack_Nak 15 points16 points17 points  (10 children)
                                                                                                                                            As did any reasonable, intelligent persons without paranoia complexes. Vapour Condensation Trails are just that, no more, and no less.
                                                                                                                                            [–]oblivioustoobvious [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                            Did any reasonable intelligent person without paranoia expect the government to be spying on all of its citizens?
                                                                                                                                            (No but now Post-Snowden they sure claim they did.)
                                                                                                                                            [–][deleted]  (8 children)
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                                                                                                                                              [–]MrStryver 7 points8 points9 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              Providing facts to disprove people's deeply held beliefs tends to just make them hold on tighter.
                                                                                                                                              [–]cybelind 3 points4 points5 points  (1 child)
                                                                                                                                              This is just a survey? Why is this in r/science
                                                                                                                                              [–]piccadill_o [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              Because an agenda needs to be pushed.
                                                                                                                                              [–]sci-fi-lullaby [score hidden]  (1 child)
                                                                                                                                              Also; Flint water, safe to drink!
                                                                                                                                              [–]gavy101 [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              Delicious lead then will never leave your body.
                                                                                                                                              [–]Beer_in_an_eskyGrad Student|Materials Science|Biomedical Titanium Alloys 21 points22 points23 points  (9 children)
                                                                                                                                              Same basic principle as a cloud chamber, so literally something you can disprove in a desktop experiment, but sadly those that do not want to learn, won't.
                                                                                                                                              [–]doppelwurzel 27 points28 points29 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              Thats not how disproving works, no matter how ridiculous the claim.
                                                                                                                                              [–]SketchBoard 10 points11 points12 points  (4 children)
                                                                                                                                              Isn't that uranium decay or some other decay of a radioactive isotope? How is that similar to contrail formation?
                                                                                                                                              [–]Beer_in_an_eskyGrad Student|Materials Science|Biomedical Titanium Alloys 10 points11 points12 points  (3 children)
                                                                                                                                              • The uranium decays, producing particles with a high kinetic energy.
                                                                                                                                              • These particles slam into the air and water molecules, ionising them.
                                                                                                                                              • The resulting ions act as nucleation sites for condensation.
                                                                                                                                              This is equivalent to the cause of contrails; condensation nucleates on soot from the engines. Although the source of the condensation nuclei differ, the same basic principle (the condensation of supercooled vapour) is occurring.
                                                                                                                                              [–]egomet_alternus 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              Desktop Uranium fever!
                                                                                                                                              [–]notagoodscientist 10 points11 points12 points  (8 children)
                                                                                                                                              Except they were real, the UK government admitted they were done in the past http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2002/apr/21/uk.medicalscience
                                                                                                                                              [–]Bobby_le_boosh 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              Why would the governments of the world spend what would probably be billions in the end when the world is doing it for them and paying it forward even.
                                                                                                                                              [–]Yawgie 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              Well, most of us know you can't really beat a conspiracy theory. Genereally, Those who believe of them generally can't be persuaded towards anything with actual logic and reason.
                                                                                                                                              [–]runjimrun [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              Well, I'm sure this will put this all to bed now. The guy who sits next to me at work will definitely change his thinking.
                                                                                                                                              [–]Sambothebassist [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              Sorry, but why are we wasting time on this? The people that believe it will do so regardless of what evidence is provided.
                                                                                                                                              [–]termderd [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              Can someone explain how this conspiracy even makes sense? Like what are the conspirators achieving? How do they gain control of money by doing this? How do they not poison themselves, their families and friends?... I just don't get how this conspiracy even remotely makes sense.
                                                                                                                                              [–]psychoticdream [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              And it still won't stop stupid people from believing in the existence of Chem trails. just like idiots who think vaccines cause autism or wifi signals case cancer (I'm looking at you Jill Stein!)
                                                                                                                                              [–]mc2222 [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              you can not use logic to convince someone out of a thought they developed without logic.
                                                                                                                                              [–]Babybleu42 [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              The only problem is, the people who believe in Chem trails don't believe in science, so this will do nothing to change their minds.
                                                                                                                                              [–]Frank__Hollywood [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              If this is true, how do you explain that meme I saw on Facebook?
                                                                                                                                              [–]TacoDayZ [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              Everytime I hear "Chem Trails" I can't help but to hear it in that raspy frog voice of Alex Jones.
                                                                                                                                              [–]Cjpinto47 [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              Ha! But thats exactly what they want us to believe!
                                                                                                                                              *puts tin foil hat on"
                                                                                                                                              [–]LetsPlayThisBro [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              Well to be clear, the trails themselves are real, but there is a legitimate scientific explanation behind them which doesn't involve a vast conspiracy.
                                                                                                                                              [–]smallgood [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              If it's a "secret spraying program" why would anyone admit it?
                                                                                                                                              [–]Mensketh [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              I feel like this whole conspiracy theory was born out of people mishearing 'contrails' and just running with it.
                                                                                                                                              [–]Ninefourty [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              "The survey results show that 76 of the 77 participating scientists said they had not encountered evidence of a secret spraying program"
                                                                                                                                              So 1 has found evidence of a secret spraying program!!!!
                                                                                                                                              [–]KmartTheLegend [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              Trying to get a concentrated enough dose of anything in to the atmosphere with a plane - enough to have harmful effects - is like dumping a boat's worth of food coloring into the ocean thinking it'll change the color.
                                                                                                                                              [–]MaxyMcSwagBoi [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              Why would the government be spraying chemicals in the same air that they breathe...
                                                                                                                                              [–]TheBeardItches [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              I'm a retired Air Force navigator and EWO, the thing that I've tried fo explains to wackos for years is that if you had the high level weather forecasts and the military and airline flight schedules, you could predict "Chem trails" with 90-95% accuracy for any given day.
                                                                                                                                              Usually nothing or I'm just a Govt shill
                                                                                                                                              [–]whatsmynameagain4477 [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              What's the point of this study? Conspiracy theorists will just say the government paid these people... waste of money and time.
                                                                                                                                              [–]tbonejackson81 [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              The best part of that study:
                                                                                                                                              "The research team says they do not hope to sway those already convinced that there is a secret spraying program -- as these individuals usually only reject counter-evidence as further proof of their theories -- but rather to establish a source of objective science that can inform public discourse."
                                                                                                                                              [–]Oldboi69 [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              Just ignore the director of the CIA admitting it. Or just delete my post!
                                                                                                                                              [–]thedrunkmrlahey [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              Oh look, the top comments have been removed. Surprising
                                                                                                                                              [–]gordo65 3 points4 points5 points  (5 children)
                                                                                                                                              The 'secret' spraying program that occurs in broad daylight. Have any of the conspiratards ever explained why the spraying isn't done at night, when it would be less likely to alarm people?
                                                                                                                                              [–]Smurvin 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
                                                                                                                                              If the purpose of the spraying is raise atmospheric albedo (in order to manage increased solar luminosity, presumably) then it might possibly be more effective to spray during the day than at night.
                                                                                                                                              [–]Telinary [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              Though there would be little point in doing that secretly.
                                                                                                                                              [–]225555 [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              Even if planes were spraying shit, winds would push all of the chemicals in random directions for miles and miles. It wouldnt just fall right on top of the area sprayed.
                                                                                                                                              [–]mbilical 4 points5 points6 points  (6 children)
                                                                                                                                              I wonder if the prevalence of conspiracy theories like this will decline as more and more young people grow up in a world with less environmental lead exposure.
                                                                                                                                              [–]Contronatura 5 points6 points7 points  (5 children)
                                                                                                                                              Remember the conspiracy theory back in the 60s that lead exposure is bad for you? What a bunch of kooks
                                                                                                                                              Edit for everyone completely missing the pretty obvious point. Lead being bad for you was mocked as a conspiracy theory for decades. If you couldn't grasp the intricacies of this comment, I fear you may have had more than your share of lead exposure
                                                                                                                                              [–]Secretsforsale[🍰] [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              Lead being bad for you was mocked as a conspiracy theory for decades.
                                                                                                                                              That's just not true mate.
                                                                                                                                              If you couldn't grasp the intricacies of this comment, I fear you may have had more than your share of lead exposure
                                                                                                                                              I understand what you were trying to do with your comment, it's just that your premise was completely false. Also try not to respond with edits next time, mmmkay?
                                                                                                                                              [–]Secretsforsale[🍰] -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              Well, no, it wasn't a conspiracy theory that lead was bad for you. Considering the maker of leaded gasoline got lead poisoning twice during his work/demonstrations really cements that fact.
                                                                                                                                              Still better than dimethylcadmium as an anti knocking agent though.
                                                                                                                                              [–]DirtySnakes -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              That was a theory that was proven true, not a conspiracy nor a conspiracy theory.
                                                                                                                                              [–]bdavisx 4 points5 points6 points  (2 children)
                                                                                                                                              This similar to how stories in the bible started out - people with no understanding of science explaining things. Look at rainbows for example.
                                                                                                                                              So in this case, you've got people who don't understand how contrails form, and they think the water vapor is actually chemicals being sprayed from the planes.
                                                                                                                                              It's just simple ignorance combined with typical stupidity.
                                                                                                                                              [–]iovis9 [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                              Well, to be honest I know only a selected few than can correctly explain a contrail formation and I studied aerospace engineering. It's not a trivial high-school physics lecture.
                                                                                                                                              [–]HurleyBurger 5 points6 points7 points  (4 children)
                                                                                                                                              Ok, this comment probably isn't going to get a whole lot of love... So, while I definitely agree that a Secret Large-scale Atmospheric Program (SLAP, as defined in the published paper) is a ridiculous theory, but remember that the authors are not stating that SLAP doesn't exist. They are stating anecdotal evidence. It's a consensus. I read some of the paper and the survey and it seems pretty cut and dry: do you believe in it? how confident are you that you would have seen evidence? explain this or that contrail mechanic... etc. So, while this idea of SLAP is absurd, don't take this paper as complete and total evidence against it. It's just a survey.
                                                                                                                                              [–][deleted]  (2 children)
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                                                                                                                                                [–]WickedTriggered 6 points7 points8 points  (9 children)
                                                                                                                                                I have no idea why people believe the things they do
                                                                                                                                                [–]Dr_Movado 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
                                                                                                                                                Fear sells
                                                                                                                                                [–]mrbibs3501 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                                Thanks Scarecrow.
                                                                                                                                                [–][deleted]  (4 children)
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                                                                                                                                                  [–]Chel_of_the_sea 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                                  To be fair, it's not logically inconsistent to say "but they're only saying that because there's a massive conspiracy". Probably not true, but not logically inconsistent (just unfalsifiable).
                                                                                                                                                  [–]A7O747D 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
                                                                                                                                                  My friend threw these at me the other day. He's more of the following that geoengineering is a conspiracy.
                                                                                                                                                  [–]peteroh9BA | Astrophysical and Planetary Sciences [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                                  His evidence was links to businesses?
                                                                                                                                                  [–]Bittlegeuss [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                                  All I see is time and money wasted to satisfy the ignorance and/or personality disorders of some people. Same with vaccinations, climate change, lunar landing ect.
                                                                                                                                                  Might as well start researching what the plants crave.
                                                                                                                                                  [–][deleted]  (19 children)
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                                                                                                                                                      [–]SeudonymousKhan 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                                      Ummm...
                                                                                                                                                      The powder scattering was part of Operation Large Area Coverage (LAC), a series of tests the Army says were designed to assess the threat of biological attacks by simulating theairborne dispersion of germs. The experiments exposed large swathes of the United States, and parts of Mexico and Canada, to flurries of a synthesized chemical called zinc cadmium sulfide.
                                                                                                                                                      LAC tests also included the dispersion of biological agents, including Serratia marcescens,Bacillus globigii, Bacillus subtilis and Aspergillus fumigates. Though they were not thought to be harmful at the time, some of the organisms used have since been shown to be potentially pathogenic in people with weakened immune systems.
                                                                                                                                                      [–]Idoontkno [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                                      Why are people working so hard to prove that it isn't happening?
                                                                                                                                                      [–]scrabblex 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
                                                                                                                                                      Too bad this won't change anyone's mind. Once someone believes in a conspiracy theory they blindly believe it for life. You can show them 100% proof and they will still refuse it.
                                                                                                                                                      [–]Axist 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
                                                                                                                                                      Does anyone know why these lines from planes don't appear here in New Zealand? I would see plane trails all the time in the UK, but none here.
                                                                                                                                                      [–]The_GASK 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                                      Because of air traffic and routes. They still appear in NZ, they are just rarer, and many nutters there consider what you just said heresy.
                                                                                                                                                      [–]athei-nerd 1 point2 points3 points  (2 children)
                                                                                                                                                      It's just sad that this even needs to be said
                                                                                                                                                      [–]ThatBriandude 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
                                                                                                                                                      I dont understand that opinion. Things like this could actually be happening and you are basicly judging everyone that has an opened mind for secret evil. What makes it sad?
                                                                                                                                                      [–]Velvetrose-2 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                                                                                                                                                      Sadly, this study won't help.
                                                                                                                                                      My aunt (and we all have that crazy relative) who believes in "chem trails" also believes in the Illuminati.
                                                                                                                                                      The Illuminati would have the power to force scientists to publish studies like this to keep us sheep from finding out the truth.
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