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If Islam is a religion of peace, shouldn't the extremists be extremely peaceful? (self.atheism)
Anti-TheistZanlo63 が 5時間前 投稿
[–]Knight of /newDudesan 16ポイント17ポイント18ポイント 5時間前* (3子コメント)
Yes. And from a certain point of view, that's exactly what you see.
Imagine you had a hypothetical Violence-O-Meter that was accurate to ten decimal places, and you arranged all of the world's 1.7 Billion or so Muslims in one long North/South line from most violent to least violent. You'd have about 425 million people in the first quartile, 425 million people in the second quartile, 425 million people in the third quartile, and 425 million people in the fourth quartile. (There are a bunch of other interesting ways you could arrange them to approximate other statistical methods, but let's stick with the "one long line" graph for now.)
The Qur'an and Hadiths are demonstrably full of horribly violent calls to subjugation and genocide and terrible gory punishment. If the model proposed by various Muslim apologists and Islamophilic regressives is correct, then the only people who actually agree with those verses will be a few hundred whack-jobs standing at the far, far Northern end of that line. These people could be usefully described as "extremists", standing as they are on the "extreme" edge of the population.
Everyone in the second, third, and fourth quartiles, and most of those in the first, are happy lovey-dovey ecumenical feminist LGBT-positive pacifist hippies. Not a one among them would even dream of following the example of the sadistic, misogynistic, pedophilic warlord who wrote their Holy Book. Doesn't that sound like it would be wonderful?
Unfortunately, "sounding nice" is not sufficient to make something true. When you actually survey Muslims in the real world about their opinions, this is not the result that you see [1, 2, 3, 4]. People well into the fourth quartile will happily endorse the beheading of apostates and the stoning of adulterers. A good many more past them will cringe a little at the commands to violence, but stop short of actually disagreeing with them, handwaving away the unpleasantness with "Mumble mumble context". It's the people who categorically refuse to endorse violence, even Allah-approved violence, who can only be found close to one end of this hypothetical line.
In other words, it's the Muslims who deliberately misinterpret the Qu'ran as peaceful who are actually in the minority, at the "extreme" tail of the graph, and who might thus be described as "extremists".
[–]Ex-TheistLildrummerninja 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
I agree with this. There are too many edicts in the Quran (and other abrahamic religions) to warrant it being called peaceful. If anyone has earned the right to be called 'the religion of peace' it's Jainism. They literally won't even hurt a fly, and only harvest plants for food. They don't want any life to suffer.
[–]Pogo152 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 2時間前 (1子コメント)
My one problem with these surveys is the fact that many could be inaccurate due to theocratic regimes. If you lived in a country where you would be killed for supporting woman's rights, I doubt you'd be vocal about it. If anybody could point to a survey that somehow circumvents this, or explain how this isn't relevant, that would be great.
[–]OldBeforeHisTime 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
Precisely. It's impossible to get an honest sampling when you're asking someone if they disagree with their theocratic government's policies, in a nation where such disagreement is subject to the death penalty!
People have recently been sentenced to death for just making a mildly-critical Facebook post. Only fools would answer these surveys honestly in Islamic nations.
[–]bipolar_sky_fairy 24ポイント25ポイント26ポイント 5時間前 (18子コメント)
Peace will be had when the entire world submits to Islam and everybody is the right kind of Muslim. Then there will be no conflict.
That's what they mean by peace.
[–]diogenes_shadow 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 5時間前 (0子コメント)
Peace sounds a lot like We're in charge. Everybody has to do whatever we say all the time.
[–]Strong Atheistzehalper 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 4時間前 (15子コメント)
No joke, this is what a muslim actually told me. Peace can only be achieved when everyone submits or dies.
[–]bipolar_sky_fairy 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 4時間前 (10子コメント)
Same here. I mean technically it's correct, but it's also a fucking horror show.
[–]Anti-Theisttsingi 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 2時間前 (9子コメント)
technically it's correct
There is a lot of violent infighting within the religion. So it isn't even technically correct.
[–]bipolar_sky_fairy 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 2時間前 (8子コメント)
That fighting will stop once everybody who isn't the right kind of muslim is dead, and peace has been achieved ;)
[–]Anti-Theisttsingi 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (7子コメント)
No Scottish Muslims then?
[–]bipolar_sky_fairy 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (6子コメント)
I suppose the bagpipe could be made out of goat..
[–]Anti-Theisttsingi 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (5子コメント)
I just learned a whole lot about making bagpipes. A fine addition to my hoard of useless information.
Wikipedia lists goat 'first' as traditional materials to make a bags for bagpipes.
[–]bipolar_sky_fairy 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (4子コメント)
I thought it was sheep?
Or am I thinking of haggis
[–]Anti-Theisttsingi 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
Oh yeah. Haggis is all the spicy parts of a sheep. Well, a lot of spice is added.
But they use them for bagpipes too, according to the almighty Wikipedia.
[–]Anti-Theisttsingi 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (2子コメント)
This just in...
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/scotland-wind-energy-renewable-power-electricity-wwf-scotland-a7183006.html
[–]OldBeforeHisTime 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1時間前 (2子コメント)
That's also what my fundamentalist-Christian grandparents thought about Jesus. They firmly believed all non-Christians (and, depending on their mood, liberal Christians, too) in the US should be put into internment camps, and given the choice to accept their version of Christianity or be put to death.
"Their version" of Christianity didn't even allow music during services. Stupid little country church of about 100 people actually preached that they might be the only ones who got to heaven, because they were right and everybody else was wrong. Not their denomination; I mean that one congregation.
They broke off from an equally stupid church with practically the same name, six miles away. The imagery of those ex-friends of theirs burning in the innermost pits of hell came up frequently during sermons and prayers.
Fucking psychotic stuff, no matter which religion it comes from. :(
[–]Agnostic AtheistTotallyUnspecial 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (1子コメント)
Your grandparents are scary.
[–]OldBeforeHisTime [スコア非表示] 54分前 (0子コメント)
Were scary. They're dead now, and thus the world became a slightly better place. Dad died a few months before that grandfather, so I wasn't even obligated to fly home for the old bigot's funeral. A small silver lining to an otherwise difficult year.
FYI Mom's side of the family is equally Christian, but without the insanity. They were Southern Baptist, and so was I, for about six months when I felt really isolated at age sixteen. ;)
[–]iHaveAgency [スコア非表示] 34分前 (0子コメント)
Peace can only be achieved when everyone submits or dies.
Islamic peace includes wife-beating, FGM...
[–]Nihilistthewatisit 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
There's also the peace of the grave for the infidels.
[–]Anti-Theistkickstand 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 5時間前 (1子コメント)
Here's the thing about slogans. The truth is usually the opposite of the slogan.
Example: a local assisted living facility has the slogan: "Where Life Begins"
[–]OTubarao 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)
I agree, just like the slogan: trickle-down economics is good for working people.
They actually are after blowing themselves-up while preparing an IED!!!
[–]rimper 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 5時間前 (20子コメント)
Isn't that strange?...But if you question the many inconsistencies, you're being 'islamophobic'.
[+]H37man スコアが基準値未満のコメント-7ポイント-6ポイント-5ポイント 5時間前 (19子コメント)
Many inconsistencies does not seem very large when you compare it to the population as a whole. I would call you a bigot or islamaphobe because you stereotype 1.5 billion people because of the actions of a few. I doubt you would call all Americans mass murderer after a school shooting happens.
[–]rimper 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 5時間前 (16子コメント)
/r/Muslim...This is /r/atheism, religion gets called out here.
[–]Secular HumanistYah-luna-tic 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 5時間前 (15子コメント)
I don't think /u/H37man was only intending to point out how what the word "Islamophobe" should represent though, as you point out, the word is so commonly abused that it is meaningless.
[–]rimper 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 5時間前* (10子コメント)
I find all religions ridiculous...But why does it seem if you mention the insanity of islam on this sub, It needs to be 'PCed up' with some kind of "But then again, all religions suck" addendum?
[–]Anti-Theisttsingi 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)
It needs to be 'PCed up'
I usually say that I find all religions ridiculous but currently the most dangerous religion is Islam.
[–]Secular HumanistYah-luna-tic 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (8子コメント)
What you call "politically correct" some of simply consider "correct".
[–]rimper 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1時間前 (7子コメント)
"Some" can consider it whatever they want...It doesn't change reality. Islam is the only religion on this sub where if you have anything negative to say about it, The comment has to be prefaced with "but the Crusades" or some such nonsense. Otherwise the PC police come out of the woodwork. Why does only islam enjoy this latitude on this sub?
[–]Secular HumanistYah-luna-tic -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 1時間前 (6子コメント)
I suspect it is because the participants in this sub are nearly all from western nations where Muslims are minorities and where most of those don't share the views of their more fundamental "brethren". In fact, many of them are where they are because they fled that shit.
What is nonsense is to claim bullshit like "the Muslim extremists" are the true followers of Islam - which I've seen done often here. We certainly don't do that with Jews (and by extension Christians) and their book has much of the same kind of bullshit in it.
I would only say that if the shit being spouted sounds like something you might hear at a Trump rally, it is almost certainly wrong.
[–]rimper 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (5子コメント)
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...A disproportionately large chunk of the so-called 'moderate' muslims, share some pretty extreme views.
[–]Secular HumanistYah-luna-tic 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (4子コメント)
Disagree about what? That the extremists don't represent the true followers? By that logic there would effectively be nearly ZERO Jews in the world today because none of them faithfully follow their books.
The issue I have is whether the Qur'an and Islam itself can be blamed for the extremist violence or if there is something else at work. The Islamic world has been going backwards in regards to fundamentalist extremism for decades now... but that wouldn't have been possible if the fundamentalism was the normal state of things. Wahhabism, the radical form of Sunni Islam that is behind nearly all of the terrorism began to have a revival in Saudi Arabia (ISIS with an embassy) in the 20th century but even that interpretation only came to exist in the 18th century... not the 7th.
[–]Anti-Theisttsingi 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (3子コメント)
the word is so commonly abused that it is meaningless.
You sound like an anti-Semite.
[–]Secular HumanistYah-luna-tic 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1時間前 (2子コメント)
Perhaps that's because I'm a fascist like Hitler!
[–]Anti-Theisttsingi 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (1子コメント)
You mean a... a... NAZI?!!!???!!
[–]Secular HumanistYah-luna-tic 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
Exactly! ;-)
[–]BillDineen 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 2時間前 (1子コメント)
According to pew research 36% of Muslims believe in death for apostates. That is an extreme view held by hundreds of millions of Muslims which is counter to basic human rights and freedoms accepted by most of the world. Just read this vomit worthy response to the question:
https://islamqa.info/en/20327
That is indeed vomit worthy.
According to pew research 36% of Muslims believe in death for apostates.
It would be curious to know, if possible, if that percentage were going up or down. From what I think I understand in much of the Islamic world things have been moving backwards as fundamentalist interpretations have grown in influence.
[–]AgnosticComputermaster 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
They want peace for themselves, and the only way they see to accomplish that is to destroy anyone who doesn't live like they do.
[–]AtheistTurbohand 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
Religion is an excuse for behavior. Whether you have good behavior or bad behavior is irrelevant.
[–]iHaveAgency [スコア非表示] 16分前 (0子コメント)
That's a t-shirt right there:
If Islam is truly a religion of peace...
Why aren't Muslim extremists extremely peaceful?
[–]Voolvif [スコア非表示] 12分前 (0子コメント)
Well, buddhism is considered to be the most peaceful religion and they also have extremists that want to kill whoever doesn't follow their religion, especially muslims.
[–]Anti-Theisttsingi 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 5時間前 (0子コメント)
It isn't a religion of peace, it's just a religion.
[+]H37man スコアが基準値未満のコメント-7ポイント-6ポイント-5ポイント 5時間前 (3子コメント)
There are. Just as there are Christian and atheists that are very non violent. There are 1.5 billion people who identify as Muslim. Trying to stereotype all of them based on the acts of a few is ridiculous. It would be like stereotyping all Americans as mass murderers every time one of us shoots up a school/work.
[–]Anti-Theisttsingi 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 5時間前 (2子コメント)
It would be like stereotyping all Americans as mass murderers every time one of us shoots up a school/work.
Mass murderers get put in jail by the non-mass murderers. Not a good analogy.
[–]H37man -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 5時間前 (1子コメント)
Like terrorist they seem to kill themselves during the act. The majority of people who are fighting and most affective by ISIS is other Muslims. They are actively trying to enforce law upon ISIS. Also terrorists are put into jail when caught also. Muslims are just as much part of American and Western European societies as everyone else who belongs to them.
[–]Secular HumanistSythus 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
Yeah, al-qaeda is the good guy for trying to enforce laws upon isis. Remember, they aren't friends.
π Rendered by PID 30208 on app-151 at 2016-08-11 20:38:49.604964+00:00 running 2fb748a country code: JP.
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