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[–]morianhawke[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (9子コメント)

Alrighty, this is a tough one.

Like some other people have said, he touches on a lot of arguments that aren't really fleshed out as much, but I think his core point, that a greater diversity of developers will lead to a greater diversity games, is a solid and well-argued one. I think there are two aspects to this that he touches on, one, that the unique experiences of groups that aren't normally making games could create some unique games, (ie. the Japaneseness of Bloodborne or the Polishness of The Witcher), and two also that there are just talented and creative people who aren't welcomed by the industry. Maybe there's another programmer with the code wizardry of John Carmack that left gaming because of the culture.

But I find a more interesting idea in the points he made about sameness: if the audience stays the same, publishers are going to keep catering to what they think that audience wants, and that's going to create boring, samey games. Without an audience shakeup, I don’t think that’s going to change. I ask myself a lot why there aren’t any games that my parents want to play, and I used to say that it was because they were closed to the idea of games, but honestly, I don’t think my parents would want to play most games today, even Dark Souls or Bioshock, which I adore. The gaming market just isn’t trying to make games for people like my parents, they’re making games for me (and other 18-35-year-old white dudes). A shakeup of demographics, adding new people into the market, is necessary to change that, because while a lot of us don't like the type of games the industry is producing, it does work, people in that demographic are buying the fuck out of Call of Duty and Grand Theft Auto. The publishers aren't technically wrong.

I wanna be able to still play games when I’m 40 and not have to roll my eyes at half of the things the industry produces. And I think welcoming people that have usually been kept out of the industry might be the best way to do that.

[–]Gray_Sloth -1ポイント0ポイント  (6子コメント)

The gaming market just isn’t trying to make games for people like my parents, they’re making games for me...

Honestly this is the most ridiculous and ignorant thing I have read in a long time. Where do you go to find games exactly? Because I can tell you that not all games are Call of Duty and Grand Theft Auto, most games aren't actually. Seriously just look at the new releases on steam, look at all the games that definitely are not CoD and GTA, you have plenty of diverse genres, diverse stories, diverse characters, if you just bothered to look. Look at the vast number of mobile games clearly targeted at a vastly different demographic then those who play CoD or GTA. "the gaming market" is an immense and diverse medium and you insult it by cherry picking a few popular titles and proclaiming gaming to lack diversity.

The reading market just isn't trying to make books for people like my parents, they're making books for me (and other 18-35-year-old white women). A shakeup of demographics, adding new people into the market, is necessary to change that, because while a lot of us don't like the type of books the industry is producing, it does work, people in that demographic are buying the fuck out of Twilight and Fifty Shades of Grey.

That's what you look like. There are more books than just Twilight and more games than just CoD, much more, if you want diversity it's out there why aren't you playing it?

[–]morianhawke[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

Honestly this is the most ridiculous and ignorant thing I have read in a long time.

Woah, man. I am not arguing that there is just flat-out no diversity in the medium. I mentioned Dark Souls and Bioshock as games I love, and love the diversity of genres, content and experimentation in indie circles. I was talking more about the AAA space, which, even more so than other mediums, is monolithic and samey. Even still, as far as quality dramatic works to rival those of other mediums, games still fall short, and I can only think of a few exceptions in the history of the medium (Beginner's Guide, Undertale, Spec Ops, Walking Dead, most of the Metal Gear Solid games), even fewer that don't focus around combat as a central mechanic. I am not, by any means, arguing that the medium is creatively bankrupt and worthless, just that it is less able to consistently produce the type works I want to show to my parents.

[–]Gray_Sloth -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I was talking more about the AAA space

That's your problem, AAA games are very expensive to make, they represent incredible risk so the people who invest in them aren't just going to make something new and different that will likely fail, they are going to stick to what they know will work, complaining that AAA games aren't taking enough risks just demonstrates wild ignorance about the business of game development. Pay to get your own creative and new AAA game developed then come and talk to me.

Even still, as far as quality dramatic works to rival those of other mediums, books still fall short, and I can only think of a few exceptions in the history of the medium (The Fault in Our Stars, The Notebook, The Time Traveler's Wife, Pride and Prejudice, most of the Outlander series), even fewer that don't focus around romance as a central dynamic.

See how silly this looks?

I apologize if my tone has come across as quite hostile, that wasn't really aimed at you, it was really more how I felt towards MrBT's video, your comment just happened to set me off.

[–]Gray_Sloth -3ポイント-2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Also I just thought it is was amusing to mention, that in your list of quality dramatic works in gaming you forgot to mention Gone Home, Depression Quest, Sunset, and Revolution 60. Much drama, so quality!

[–]morianhawke[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Umm, it wasn't like an objective list of all good games ever made, just some examples. I liked Gone Home and Depression Quest, haven't played those other ones though.

[–]Gray_Sloth -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

I would actually defend those two, they do actually have several good qualities, I just thought it was a bit funny that in your off the cuff list these rather infamously progressive games didn't make the cut.

[–]morianhawke[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Idk man, saying that you like Gone Home on the internet doesn't tend to go over too well xD

[–][deleted] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

he touches on a lot of arguments that aren't really fleshed out as much

Why should he? This video is obviously meant as an announcement. He was just shouting "hey, I'm not avoiding those topics anymore," to his audience. Nothing more, nothing less.

[–]morianhawke[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think it was good that he didn't, I was just acknowledging that there are a lot of really controversial themes he touches on and doesn't spend too much time on, which could frustrate people who disagree with him. I don't, so it didn't both me.

[–]jphanderson 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

Weird video. Also weirder is that there's some decent discussion in the youtube comments. There's some shit too but hey.

This is a very complex issue that was not handled well in this video. I think his goal was to bring up the argument that diversity is its own reward--which is a good one--and then a lot of the stuff he's been bottling up came pouring out as he was making the video. It's trying to be accessible and to convince a broader audience of a problem in games, but simply by using the term "cis" you have already alienated a substantial group of people who may have otherwise listened to you. It's not fair but it's simply the truth.

It's also not fair to say that the video is bad because he didn't provide any solutions to this complicated issue--at least it would be if he didn't state that something WOULDN'T work (giving it time and letting it happen on its own), and make some strange contradictions. Historically, issues like this have only ever been solved by time or some sort of violent revolution. There could be a third option we've been missing all along but I doubt that it's going to be discovered on youtube after eluding so many other great minds over the centuries. You could argue that time is what's improved the problem in other forms of media.

But then he mentions 18th century literature as something that's "in his wheel house". And whether he's specifically referring to either the romantic or Victorian period that came before modernism, or applying a blanket description over it all that covers anything before post-modernism, it's an awkward comparison to make when criticizing a culture for a lack of diversity.

The root of the problem in gaming is that very little of it is taken seriously, especially by those who are making the games--and to say that development teams lack diversity is a pretty bold statement if you haven't taken a census of every major game studio to back it up. They take making a marketable product seriously, and attempts to create something that's digestive and fun to play seriously, but everything else is thoughtless gravy added onto that meat to make it look good. It all comes down to story and writing, because that's always the umbrella that characters are going to sit under. Diversity is a problem but having good characters of any representation won't happen until games get some good characters, period. And some good stories worthy of them. Most video games have stories that are in the same realm as action movies--whether that's because most games have combat systems or if it's because people who are making them revere those movies, I can't say. But both have the same disposal supporting characters that orbit around the main character who has very simple but sympathetic motivations: dead parents, or endured some great trial, or constantly in trouble because of a hotly burning sense of moral obligation. Making good characters requires a more complicated story, and most likely a changed game than the normal that's out there to match it. That's harder to do and harder to sell.

But then there are examples brought up in the video. Witcher 3 won so many game of the year awards that I can't even remember them all. Bloodborne did as well. Which stand in stark opposition to the video's core argument since these games are so highly celebrated. Metal Gear Solid is brought up as an example of a game that is "more of the same" yet it's almost the exact same thing that FROMSoftware did with western fantasy, only with western spy movies instead. Which ties back with Witcher 3 since that's both praised and criticized for being diverse and a lack of diversity in the space of a minute in the video. I think the other problem is that a lot of people complaining about this issue don't know what they even want.

[–]Lahiho 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

When he mentions 18th century literature he is referencing his video The Shandification of Fallout. He's talking about how the topic of this video is different from what he usually writes about and is comfortable with talking about.

[–]cjt09 6ポイント7ポイント  (13子コメント)

I don't necessarily disagree with the video, but I do have one big complaint. Right around the 5:56 mark he refers to an "accumulation of a complex of bad habits" which he calls a "pile of obnoxious cruft getting in the way of the potential of the medium". But then he declines to actually describe any of these habits, commenting that it's "way beyond the scope of this video" and vaguely refers us to look at the entire internet.

If you're gonna bring this up as an issue, and encourage everyone to tackle the issue, I feel like you should at least be prepared to give some specifics. His only real suggestion is to "listen and change" which really isn't much of a suggestion. Especially since he said earlier that "diversity must be cultivated". If you want to cultivate diversity, I imagine that's going to require a bit of a more active role than just listening. I would encourage him to come up with some specific actionable steps that he'd like to see publishers, developers, games media, and players undertake and give some solid evidence supporting those steps.

[–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–]cjt09 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Here's a video of him talking about about violence in games as a habit.

    I'm going to have to put beside some time to watch that video, but I don't feel that violence is one of the "obnoxious" habits he's referring to in this video considering he never mentions it and he led in with praise of two violent action-RPGs.

    He also shows clips from Tropes Vs Women in Video Games while he's talking about this so it's pretty safe to infer he means a lot of the tropes mentioned in that series are bad habits too.

    Why not mention specific tropes/habits that he finds to be especially egregious and show how those may be discouraging women from becoming involved in gaming? I can't help but feel that would make for a much stronger argument, because at least then I could get a sense of what sort of habits he thinks needs to be destroyed or cultivated. Maybe he completely agrees with Sarkeesian and all of the tropes in her videos, which is totally fine, but I feel he should explicitly point that out because right now I don't really know what he thinks.

    All I could get is a sense that he just wants something to change somewhere and the biggest offenders are apparently a bunch of games from the 80s and 90s. But isn't that kind of disingenuous? It ignores the tremendous progress that's been made in the last decade or so. The Lara Croft of 2015 is a vastly more well-rounded and strong character than the sex-symbol Lara Croft of 1996. Mass Effect features homosexual relationships in a manner-of-fact way. Halo 5's main protagonist is a black dude and several of your teammates are women. Fallout 4 explores racism through the segregated and stigmatized ghouls that inhabit post-nuclear Boston. I'm not saying you can't claim sexism/racism/homophobia is still a problem in modern gaming culture, but I don't think it's right to say "we need to change NOW" and completely fail to mention that we're clearly making progress. I feel that it would be better to take a recent release, and point out what it does right and point out what it could do better.

    I understand he doesn't want to do a large-scale survey of the current state of the representation of women in video games. He's not charging for his content, and such an endeavor would require a lot of effort which I'm sure he would prefer spending on exploring other topics. But why not come at this using the same approach from the beginning of the video? He mentions that Polishness is integral to the experience of The Witcher III. Why not find a great game where its femininity is integral to the experience? I feel that would be far more convincing than finding a bunch of old games from the 80s and vaguely imply that those games are scaring women away.

    [–]KingDragonlord -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Not that TvW is in anyway productive. Its baffling that someone as normally smart as him would support her. She adds so little to the discussion.

    [–]TheRingshifter 2ポイント3ポイント  (8子コメント)

    I mean, I disagree... for pretty obvious reasons.

    Like, you always have to cut off how deep into a subject you go somewhere. I mean, can you imagine if everyone you were teaching someone about erosion you had to go all the way into particles, Brownian motion, the strong nuclear force, subatomic particles, quantum physics etc etc etc to accurately explain how exactly wind works? It would just be obnoxious. You choose a point at which you don't go deeper into a subject (or defining a word) and just stop - you have to at some point.

    Talking about this "obnoxious cruft" could probably be a 20-minute on its own. It's just not feasible to talk about them here... especially when most people (including me) probably have some idea about what he's referencing.

    [–]cjt09 2ポイント3ポイント  (7子コメント)

    Talking about this "obnoxious cruft" could probably be a 20-minute on its own. It's just not feasible to talk about them here...

    Sure, but at least point us in the right direction. Maybe he could have found some other videos that he thought were insightful and pointed his viewers there. What he's doing is like if you tried to claim that Congress has passed a bunch of bad laws, but discussing those laws is way beyond the scope of your argument, and that anyone who disagrees should just look at entire Code of the United States. I'm not saying he's right or wrong, I'm saying that he's not going to convince anyone by telling them to just look at the internet. Maybe he didn't have enough time to put together a compelling argument. That's fine, but it doesn't mean his argument wouldn't be way stronger if he did make a 20-minute video talking about this stuff.

    Like the first half of the video was pretty great. He basically threw down some games that the vast majority of his audience liked and pointed out some unique cultural aspects of the developers which probably contributed to those games being so distinctive. If he followed this up with a "hey guys, I want more of these types of games, so here's what we need to do" I think it would have probably been a much better video. Everyone would have been on board.

    But instead he spends the next half of the video in a much more disorganized rant and introduces a number of very poorly-supported claims. Like, you mention that most people "probably have some idea about what he's talking about" but when MrBtongue starts claiming that games are "vast and epic" because they're white and male, I get lost. Those are bad things? You just talked about how much you liked The Witcher III and 80-hour RPGs. What does being white and male have to do with being vast and epic? He says games are getting a little samey-samey because of a lack of diversity, but the game industry is more diverse than it's ever been. Oh sexism is what's keeping people out of the industry today...why are you showing me clips from games made 25 years ago? And then he starts implying how frustrated he is with games like Call of Duty, Gears of War, and Uncharted but says if we work together we can make a change. But I like all those games. Why would you even bring those up, I'd even argue that one of the reasons Tomb Raider got rebooted was because Uncharted has been so successful.

    I mean, this is obviously an issue he's passionate about (he made an entire video about it again called the issue "too important to ignore") and he clearly believes that we all need to work together to move forward. And despite how incoherent the second half of his video is, I do think I can understand where he's coming. I've worked as a professional game developer. I totally get that there are significant elements of the industry and the community that are completely toxic and absolutely discourage people from pursuing their ideas. But I feel the completely disorganized structure of the second half of his video is really a disservice to his beliefs.

    [–]KingDragonlord 2ポイント3ポイント  (6子コメント)

    I'm saying that he's not going to convince anyone by telling them to just look at the internet.

    I'd go a step further and say its dismissive. Nobody who disagrees with him is going to suddenly say "Wait let me check the internet, oh now I see what he's talking about." But I think his intent is to imply that anyone who disagrees with him is simply a moron.

    Its either an appeal to the stone (Obviously its true just look at the internet) or shifting the burden of proof (I don't have to prove my argument, you have to prove it wrong or else its true.)

    Although I'll be generous and say he's afraid to step in these waters, so he's being very careful (to a fault) about what words he's willing to commit to record.

    [–]partybusiness 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

    I took it as he isn't going to put in the effort on something that's already been done elsewhere.

    [–]KingDragonlord 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Its still his responsibility to show us where if he wants to support his point. Its not our obligation to help make his case for him.

    [–]partybusiness 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

    A big part of why I like MrBTongue is he tries to make his videos about something that a lot of other people haven't already covered. Getting sucked into a debate on this subject would run contrary to that.

    [–]KingDragonlord 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Its too late. He's already sucked into that debate. And this subject has been covered extensively unlike his other topics.

    [–]partybusiness 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I mean the subject that he outright said was beyond the scope of the video.

    And he said at the start that a lot of people approach the subject of diversity from one angle, so he was approaching it from a less common angle. It's perhaps not as unique an angle as Shandification, for example, but I don't think it's his responsibility to iron out what remaining uniqueness it has out of an obligation to people who would rather he flog a dead horse.

    If a bunch of people showed up to one of his videos insisting he has to say whether or not games are really art, I would be fine with him not taking the bait.

    [–]KingDragonlord 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    At the end of the day, I think this type of argument (which I've seen plenty elsewhere) reduces the people it tries to support. Its like when you have a woman on a panel and the others keep trying to consult her on her expertise in being a woman when she just wants to talk about the topic of the panel like the guys are doing.

    Hiring people because you need the diverse perspectives is not honoring their desires. Maybe some of them are itching to bring that specific perspective, but others are just stoked about making games.

    The real reason to have diversity is because the people who want jobs in this industry are diverse. If for some reason they didn't, it wouldn't be essential to go find them. Its about giving the people who want to be here a fair shot.

    [–]JohanGrimm 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    BTongue is hands down my favorite game "critic" when it comes to world building/story and the gameplay mechanics that reinforce them. He has a deep and well rounded knowledge base of both games and other media storytelling. He can expertly construct a video that talks about why a game's world building and story are so great then give examples and justification. Which is not at all easy to do. What's important here is that he can construct a thesis and then spends the time and effort to back it up very well all while keeping a thirty minute video entertaining.

    That said he's mediocre to downright terrible when it comes to talking about things outside of that perspective. Such as the current politics in games or to an extent the games journalism video. He still talks with the same authority but he tends to make wild conclusions failing to back them up after the fact. Which is a stark contrast to his other videos.

    He does pepper in thoughts about things outside of his area of expertise in his story/world/mechanics lectures but they don't detract from the overall point of the video. Where as when he makes a video based entirely on things he's kind of sort of researched and then comes to a big polarizing conclusion but backs it up with "It's too much to talk about so fuck you" it ends up being jarring and bad in comparison.

    When it comes to MrBTongue, at least for me, his videos on story, world building and the mechanics that give them life are second to none. His videos about random topics he doesn't have much experience in aren't nearly on the same level and should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

    [–]Hyper-Cube 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Really enjoying the amount of videos from MrBToungue recently. Lets hope he doesn't leave for another year.

    As for the actual issue, I'm not sure what could be done to appease people. I'd love to see more Bloodbornes as much as I'd love to see more Witcher 3s. It only makes sense that a business is going to target a large demographic. Is it that we need more games with influence outside of american culture? I really don't know, but it does get a bit annoying when every game's protagonist looks exactly the same, when games start to blend together, and when a game feels like it was put together using a checklist of things men in their twenties will like.

    I wonder if the general gaming audience feels the same, or if people who seek such diversity are just a small minority.

    [–]partybusiness 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Is appeasing people the end goal, though? Immediately asking "what could be done to appease people" is thinking in terms of fairness, which he deliberately excluded from his arguments.

    He used examples based on their countries, I guess because that makes it more obvious. But a game made by African-Americans or by women from America could feel culturally distinct from games made by young white men from America, even if they're all Americans.