全 122 件のコメント

[–]astrowhizStanhope for '08 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

It is a big problem but however much ivory ends up in the UK, it's dwarfed by the amount that finds it's way to China.

If the US and China are restricting ivory then I feel the UK should too. It's nothing to do with being told what to do by other nations. It's better to have an international policy on these matters otherwise the problem continues.

[–]Whitechocolatekrispi 6ポイント7ポイント  (5子コメント)

What the fuck am a I suppose to make my piano keys out of now ...

[–]aeidihis smile and optimism: gone 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

I actually think that bone is a nicer material than ivory... seems to me that the only reason people like ivory is because of how controversial it is, which is kinda fucked up.

[–]SMURGwastakenUKIP [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Can't say I've ever played on bone keys... Ivory is far and away the best material I've ever come across. None of the synthetic alternatives come close imo.

[–]LolworthInto the Tories before it was cool [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Not controversial but diamond is the same, it's just a glassy jewel

[–]wilf182 [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

So... I own an elephant tusk that I inherited from my grandfather . As far as I am aware I am allowed to keep it but I am not allowed to sell it or carve it. If I want to get rid of it then it has to be destroyed by the gov. Is this correct? Does anyone know any different?

[–]SMURGwastakenUKIP [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I know I'm allowed to sell my piano if I want, though it does involve some checks to confirm that it's from 1930 and thus counts as an antique. Not sure what the deal is with raw ivory like that though...

[–]wilf182 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

That's the thing, I think you can sell it if it's been made into something or carved, but it's different if it's raw ivory.

[–]LastCelt1989 18ポイント19ポイント  (42子コメント)

Why does it have to be the UK exactly?

[–]aeidihis smile and optimism: gone 33ポイント34ポイント  (17子コメント)

Because the legal ivory trade in the UK provides cover for illegal ivory and increases demand. Other countries have stricter laws than we do.

The UK’s domestic ivory market provides ample cover for illegal activity. Between 2009 and 2014, 40% of all the seizures made by the UK’s Border Force were ivory items and in 2015, 110kg of ivory were seized at Heathrow airport in one of the UK’s largest hauls of illegal ivory. This is just the tip of the iceberg as ivory sold legally in the UK domestic market is exported to illegal markets in other countries, contributing to high prices and fuelling demand for elephant products.

[–]rihcab1[S] 8ポイント9ポイント  (16子コメント)

We should crack down on our own domestic ivory trade because killing elephants is bad and I don't want them to go extinct

[–]DavidNclI'll have the Full English Brexit -3ポイント-2ポイント  (15子コメント)

Farm them and sell the Ivory.

[–]IdeaTardia-8.75 / -7.69 0ポイント1ポイント  (14子コメント)

Is this meant to be a joke or do you seriously not realise how stupid that is?

[–]wilf182 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

How is it stupid? I was taught in geography that it was probably the best sustainable method of maintaining the elephant population in the long run.

[–]LolworthInto the Tories before it was cool [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Certainly works for cows

[–]DavidNclI'll have the Full English Brexit 3ポイント4ポイント  (11子コメント)

Would you explain why you think it's stupid?

[–]IdeaTardia-8.75 / -7.69 3ポイント4ポイント  (10子コメント)

Even before the morality of farming incredibly intelligent animals for their tusks is approached, elephants are some of the least feasible animals there are to farm. The entire process would be ridiculously expensive, complex, and dangerous, and thus would never catch on enough to be anything other than a bolstering rod for the illegal market. It's like trying to get rid of illegal weed dealers by selling small amounts of really expensive weed. It would do nothing other than increase and legitimise demand for illegal sources.

[–]DemonEggyDirty foreigner, here to subvert your democracy 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

Funny, I replied almost the same thing, before finding yours. Now it looks like I copied you!

But you're right, by my wee bit of research it would take probably 15 years to grow an elephant big enough to kill for its tusks. Not really economically viable (as well as morally reprehensible).

[–]_Rookwood_ [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

You aren't thinking big enough. You need a gigantic farm with like a million elephants on it. You can also breed them to grow up quicker and give them tusk growth treatment. Eventually 15 years become 14, becomes 10 and so on until you're harvesting a batch of ivory every 5 years from generation to generation. You can cordon off a gigantic part of Africa in some wilderness and use that for the farm. You'll provide employment for hundreds, eliminate the illegal trade in ivory, you can sell the meat(elephant burgers anyone?!), create a tourist industry and also learn a great deal about elephants!

[–]LolworthInto the Tories before it was cool [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

We did it, Reddit 🐘

[–]DemonEggyDirty foreigner, here to subvert your democracy [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Easy! You could also cross-breed them with reindeer, so they shed their tusks every spring, removing the need to kill them at all! And then cross-breed them with gazelle, so they have a gestation period of only 6 months!

It DOES make economic sense, if you think big enough. Thanks for opening my eyes!

[–]twersxbuild a wall 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Did you even read the article?

[–]sjintjelazyness pays -5ポイント-4ポイント  (0子コメント)

If there was any important information that wasn't summarised in the headline, surely the OP would have done us the courtesy of highlighting the essentials in his post?

[–]NotSoBlue_REMIND YOU OF ANYONE?!?! 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why does it have to be the UK exactly?

Sounds like UKIPs foreign policy.

[–]KbnationLeft handed 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

Because the Guardian would like to maintain the hyperbole that the UK is a bad naughty place full of naughty people who abandoned the European project.

[–]RewardedFoolI agree with Nick 23ポイント24ポイント  (0子コメント)

Or, alternatively, it's because the UK is a wealthy country with a more relaxed ivory market and they are a UK-based newspaper.

[–]wantonballbagHardline neutral -5ポイント-4ポイント  (0子コメント)

How else are they going to get clicks?

"The nasty awful people are EVERYWHERE"

It's literally the same fear baiting crap anywhere else pumps out.

[–]TheFinalJourney [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I dont buy ivories. these people should leave us alone

[–]logicalmaniakProgressive Social Constitutional Democratic Techno-Anarchy 6ポイント7ポイント  (11子コメント)

Okay, we need a massive piece of Africa and a few breeding pairs to run our ivory farm.

Flood the market with cheap ivory from ethical sources, and increase the population of African Elephants. Rhinos too.

[–]DemonEggyDirty foreigner, here to subvert your democracy 10ポイント11ポイント  (8子コメント)

Even if you ignore the obvious ethical issues with breeding intelligent animals just for their teeth, it's not a practical solution. An elephant has a gestation period of nearly two years, and only usually give birth to one calf at a time. Then, after that two years of waiting, it's another three or four years before there's any sign of a tusk. Then, those tusks grow at about 15cm per year. So, if you want to harvest a decent sized tusk, say a meter long, you have to wait another six or seven years. In total, then, you will be waiting over ten years to harvest a single pair of tusks. Add in the fact that elephants don't reach sexual maturity until they're twenty years old, and your ivory farm is looking less and less profitable...

[–]Turned_A 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

This.

There's a reason people don't do what u/logicalmaniak is suggesting

[–]logicalmaniakProgressive Social Constitutional Democratic Techno-Anarchy [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Profit is less important.

Safari parks already exist, it would simply add tracking, husbandry, and security through harvesting ivory and breeding massive herds.

Selling the ivory cheap means the return from poaching is diminished.

[–]wotad [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

its either breed them at a farm or let them go extinct.. what do you prefer

[–]DemonEggyDirty foreigner, here to subvert your democracy [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

I'm happy trying to conserve them. But doing it to harvest ivory is just stupid.

[–]wotad [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

didnt they do this to another animal and it worked?

[–]DemonEggyDirty foreigner, here to subvert your democracy [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Which other animal?

[–]wotad [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Im pretty sure there is a system like that for Lions where people pay money to help breed the animals etc.. to get parts of them.

[–]DemonEggyDirty foreigner, here to subvert your democracy [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

There are a very, very limited number of lions that get hunted, and the hunters pay a fortune whether they shoot one or not. They aren't being harvested like op suggests.

[–]DeityOfMid 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's actually not a bad idea. Banning ivory doesn't stop people wanting it. SA does the same with lion hunting.

[–]bitches_love_cake 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

Didn't UKIP vote against this being an EU law?

[–]twersxbuild a wall 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

They vote against everything being an EU law so probably yes.

[–]Citizen_BongoClassical Liberal / Rightist 4ポイント5ポイント  (23子コメント)

If we allowed these animals to be farmed for their ivory and created a licenced market then they wouldn't be close to extinction. Prohibition is a huge part of the problem.

[–]rihcab1[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (22子コメント)

You want elephants to be raised to be killed for their fucking tusks? NO. Elephants are beautiful intelligent creatures it's not like we need them for meat to eat that's insane

[–]DavidNclI'll have the Full English Brexit 13ポイント14ポイント  (5子コメント)

Pigs are intelligent and beautiful creatures.

[–]rihcab1[S] -3ポイント-2ポイント  (4子コメント)

Do pigs hold funerals and cry when their grandmothers die? Elephants do

[–]DavidNclI'll have the Full English Brexit 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've seen Corvids grief stricken on the death of another bird. I'm quite sure pigs have rich and complex emotional and social lives - as do rats.

[–]Citizen_BongoClassical Liberal / Rightist 5ポイント6ポイント  (14子コメント)

I don't feel anyone should have to ask for permission. Especially not from "liberal" westerners.

I don't see why a species should die to protect the feelings of fragile human beings.

[–]rihcab1[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (13子コメント)

A species shouldn't die, that's the whole point they should be able to live without being hunted for their ivory or their meat or whatever else they should be able to be safe and free in their home.

[–]the_beees_knees 4ポイント5ポイント  (10子コメント)

they should be able to live without being hunted for their ivory or their meat or whatever else they should be able to be safe and free in their home.

Why? What is the objective moral reason why you can't raise elephants for tusks? It would save the species.

All I am hearing is hysterical emotional rhetoric which will get us nowhere.

[–]rihcab1[S] 6ポイント7ポイント  (9子コメント)

Because it's cruel to raise an intelligent being just to kill it and rip it's tusks out

[–]the_beees_knees 3ポイント4ポイント  (7子コメント)

If it's dead it doesn't care what happens to parts of its body. The ripping out of tusks after death is irrelevant to the matter of cruelty.

It is no different from eating meat.

[–]simpliciustheyoungerfar-right hard-leftist 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's eye-rolling that you should jump straight to a demand for an objective reason when getting into an ethical discussion. It's like demanding nothing less than irrefutable proof; an astronomically high, untenable, uncharitable, and unfair standard to start a discussion with.

Let's look at the practicality of it then, if you don't want to hear 'emotional rhetoric'.

What conditions do you raise the animal in? Battery elephants or free range? Can't be battery because you conveniently dodged the "intelligent animal" aspect of u/rihcab1's question, which tells me you care about intelligent animals' gratuitous suffering. If free range, what range? How much will it cost to keep the animals fed, watered and healthy for the decades it takes for them (rather, their tusks) to mature? Do you know elephants suffer psychologically when they lose their young? And baby tusks won't be worth a lot, and a mothers gestation period is 1.5-2 years. How many calves does a mother produce in a lifetime? Will it cover the cost of the wages of all the workers too? What about the cost and effort involved in preventing people from stealing tusks (poachers)? Will the price of the tusks recoup the costs of everything involved in farming them?

It's easy to say "raise elephants for tusks" without giving one brain cells worth of thought to what that involves. And, unlike your demand for objective moral reasons, I can reasonably demand that you answer these questions before you carry on with your asinine idea of raising elephants for tusks - because the idea necessarily entails these considerations, especially the last question.

[–]the_beees_knees -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's eye-rolling that you should jump straight to a demand for an objective reason when getting into an ethical discussion. It's like demanding nothing less than irrefutable proof; an astronomically high, untenable, uncharitable, and unfair standard to start a discussion with.

No it isn't. It is acknowledging that there is a problem which cannot be solved by looking at it from a purely ethical perspective. How many millions more have to be spent before you accept that the war cannot be won by prohibition? Particularly when those making the ethical arguments don't even agree amongst themselves.

It's easy to say "raise elephants for tusks" without giving one brain cells worth of thought to what that involves. And, unlike your demand for objective moral reasons, I can reasonably demand that you answer these questions before you carry on with your asinine idea of raising elephants for tusks - because the idea necessarily entails these considerations, especially the last question.

The market price of the Ivory will be set such that it is a viable buisness. Essentially all you need is a large area of land which is fenced in, exactly like many safari parks are currently. The contact between owners and elephants can be almost zero until the best point which the animal is to be killed. It may even be cheaper than current black market ivory due to criminal elements not taking cuts of the eventual sale price for smuggling etc. You are assuming that the market for ivory is so large that it requires "battery farms" when it doesn't.

which tells me you care about intelligent animals' gratuitous suffering

I am a realist. You may as well be an anti - drug campaigner who tries to take a moral stand against cocaine use while ignoring the horrific deaths in South america caused by prohibition. There is no solution to this that doesn't involve elephants being killed for ivory, the choice is between it being controlled or not.

[–]rihcab1[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm not a vegetarian but at least killing something for meat is killing it because you need to eat not so someone can use their tusks to make pianos and let the carcass rot

[–]the_opinion [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

What if we started eating the meat, too? Would that help?

[–]EsoteriCola"Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right" 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well you can think that but I doubt an elephant cares any more than a pig when it comes to what happens to if after it dies.

[–]aeidihis smile and optimism: gone 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

elephants are far more intelligent than the creatures we rear for meat. it's very different from eating meat. what if I suggested that we raise humans so we could harvest them for organs? I mean, if they're dead they don't care what happens to them do they?

animals should be assigned rights based on their intelligence. elephants are intelligent enough that they should NOT be hunted for any reason.

[–]DAsSNipez [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

There's a book about that (total fiction, not an advocation of the practice) called Never Let Me Go, also a film.

Creepy shit.

[–]DavidNclI'll have the Full English Brexit 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

We kill alligators for handbags and shoes. Likewise snakes. We kill and eat pigs because we like bacon. Eggs are unborn birds. My belt is made of an animal's skin. My piano has keys made of teeth. Fur coats too.

We mount the heads animals on the walls.

We are humans and we kill animals for their body parts.

[–]Citizen_BongoClassical Liberal / Rightist 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

What a fantasy.

[–]DavidNclI'll have the Full English Brexit -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I know, it's fucking laughable tbh. I'd love to take him to a feed lot or on a fishing boat.

[–]DXBtoDOH [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

To quote the article:

"China, considered to be the world’s biggest ivory market, has widened restrictions on imports and announced its plans to take “significant and timely steps” towards ending all ivory trading."

LOL. Yeah right. Typical Chinese talking the talk to look like a nice player but in reality doing very little behind the scenes because they don't care at all. The devastation of the African elephant population is 99% the consequence of China's insatiable demand for ivory. Chinese government trade delegation officials were busted at African airports with illegal ivory!

I'm sure there's more the UK (and any proper country) could do but trying to imply that we're somehow negligent is just scare tactics. The fault lies almost entirely with China and the Chinese government's reluctance to crack down (seriously) on illegal ivory trade in their own country.

[–]willgeld [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The Chinese are doing next to shit all I'd wager

[–]SMURGwastakenUKIP [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Call me a shitty person but sounds like my 1930 baby grand with mint condition ivory keys is about to gain some value... It's already made from 2 species of tree which are now extinct, and by the sounds of things the species the ivory came from is about to go too :\

[–]gsurfer04ukpol's unofficial judge of character [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It's already made from 2 species of tree which are now extinct

What are they?

[–]thedeadmann 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

If the UK doesn't join America and China..........America............and China..........

.....................America and China...................

?

[–]HighAndOnlineSocial Democrat -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hunt humans and steal their finger nails and toe nails instead. It's the only ethical solution to the problem.

[–]itz4mnaLiberal Tory -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why can't we just use mammoth ivory? Can't hurt a species that's already extinct.