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Bitfinex Interim Update (self.BitcoinMarkets)

testname33Bullish が 投稿 - announcement

<- Previous discussion here

http://blog.bitfinex.com/uncategorized/bitfinex-interim-update/
https://bitfinex.statuspage.io/incidents/8qd35qxs01mm

Bitfinex Interim Update:

Following the theft on August 2nd, the Bitfinex team has been working tirelessly towards bringing the platform back online in a secure and controlled manner. We have finalized the accounting of losses incurred and are currently coordinating strategic plans for compensating customers.

We intend to come online within 24-48 hours with limited platform functionality. Additional announcements will be made as we progressively enable more platform features and return to full operations. We appreciate that our customers and the public want this handled quickly, but it needs to be done a way in which all assets are secure and immune from vulnerabilities. Every resource is being leveraged to make that happen in a safe and optimal way.

As disclosed in earlier announcements, all withdrawals, open orders, and open funding offers have been cancelled and all financed positions have been settled. Exact settlement prices were published on August 3rd.

After much thought, analysis, and consultation, we have arrived at the conclusion that losses must be generalized across all accounts and assets. This is the closest approximation to what would happen in a liquidation context. Upon logging into the platform, customers will see that they have experienced a generalized loss percentage of 36.067%. In a later announcement we will explain in full detail the methodology used to compute these losses.

We are actively discussing various strategic options with numerous potential investors as part of our strategy to fully compensate our customers. Such discussions, however, are in early stages and will likely take time to play out. In the meantime, In place of the loss in each wallet, we are crediting a token labeled BFX to record each customer’s discrete losses. Tokens will be distributed without release or waiver. The BFX tokens will remain outstanding until redeemed in full by Bitfinex or possibly exchanged—upon the creditor’s request and Bitfinex’s acceptance—for shares of iFinex Inc. We are still sorting out many details on this; we will post further updates in the coming days.

Thank you for your continued patience and for the many generous offers of support that we have received over the last several days. Notwithstanding this attack, we continue to believe in the possibilities associated with bitcoin. We will continue to update our customers and the public as and when we can.

Recap:

All official updates here: https://bitfinex.statuspage.io/

Bitfinex Community Director is /u/zanetackett.

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ベストトップ論争中古い順Q&A

[–]cryptoreporter 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Still waiting for my 1000 BTC bonus from the hacker. That will help ease the pain.

[–]Ashes-Snow 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

FUCK. Taking straight USD balances? goddamit. Fuck you

[–]cryptoreporter 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Once I get my coins back... #NEVERAGAIN

[–]Hanlons_razor 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

What about those of us who made a deposit between the time the hack was suspected and when the site was shut down? Support only said there was an issue with deposits at that time. Will the socialized losses also be spread across those deposits that were made in the interim?

[–]ID-10T-ERRORBitcoin Skeptic 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

Man, you people claim to be all for bitcoin's non-central usage meaning you use it at your own risk, but then if something bad happens you scream, cry and yell for help from authorities and government when something bad goes wrong with an exchange that is trying to be amicable with the community and its users.

I took a loss (34K if you must know based on this announcement), but these were clearly the terms when I signed up for Bitfinex. Is it their fault that they got hacked, probably but you took that risk as well as others and it didn't pan out in your favor. Is it my fault for keeping that much USD and not withdrawing and keeping reasonable acceptable trading amounts in case of a loss? Definitely!

People like to point fingers to Bitfinex when users/traders should be pointing fingers at their greedy selves. I am happy with the outcome and 36% across everyone is fair (that way no one cries if for someone certain users weren't affected).

Let me ask you guys, would you rather have Bitfinex default and have little or no monetary compensation at all for the years to come? Or would you rather take that loss now and make it up over the coming years!?

Bitcoin is still bullish to go up (we all hope!) and I think that by accepting the remaining assets/balance is the best way for now to recover the losses over the next few days/weeks/months/years trading.

Remember, it's not Bitfinex's fault for getting hacked. We all knew the risks associated with exchanges and if you thought for one second your money was safe, then you shouldn't be trading bitcoin at all. Bitstamp and other exchanges may have been safe/not hacked at all because probably it was too much effort for the criminals to even get the payout worthwhile. They went after bitfinex for the same reason coders/hackers and attackers exploit and hack Windows operating systems, because most people use them and rely on them for their business use when there's no incentive for a hacker to hack or exploit OSX.

[–]cryptoreporter 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Remember, it's not Bitfinex's fault for getting hacked.

Explain THAT to me please.

[–]Odbdb 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Man, you people claim to be all for bitcoin's non-central usage meaning you use it at your own risk, but then if something bad happens you scream, cry and yell for help from authorities and government

No one should be wanting the FBI, FTC, SEC, Interpol, etc to get involved with this. (Some would argue they or similar are very likely to be the perps.) However the frustrating part is that there is no governing body capable of auditing this process or other financial institutions that deal solely in BTC or crypto. The closest we ever had was Bitcoin Foundation and they were woefully inadequate at best. I'm actually surprised and a little disappointed no one has managed to fill that power vacuum.

Let me ask you guys, would you rather have Bitfinex default and have little or no monetary compensation at all for the years to come?

This is important. I think most should understand that it's a race against time. Every passing day it becomes evident Bitcoin will be valued higher in the years to come so having capital now is the most important to see the most value.

[–]de_moonBullish 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's really a lose-lose situation. Take a 36% hit now and have that money in BTC which will likely be worth 2x+ in value in a few years. Or make them file bankruptcy and get potentially 100% of your funds back in a few years time and miss out on having that money invested in BTC.

[–]ID-10T-ERRORBitcoin Skeptic 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

"It's really a lose-lose situation. Take a 36% hit now and have that money in BTC which will likely be worth 2x+ in value in a few years. Or make them file bankruptcy and get potentially 100% of your funds back in a few years time and miss out on having that money invested in BTC."

This is exactly my point! Yes, it's not a win win for anyone really, but is the alternative better than taking a 36% hit now and just invest that money over the time frame it would take to get your money back?

Screw that! I'd rather have my money available now and invest it/trade it over the years to come and I am pretty positive I can recover from the loss in less than 1 year than rather say, 3-6 years and that's if you even get 100% back.

I am glad Bitfinex made this decision and to stay onboard! If traders want to sue while other accept the terms, then those that accept the terms now shouldn't have to wait for those that want to sue for their payment.

[–]Odbdb 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Its a lovely plan that may even have a chance to work out eventually. In the real world I doubt this will ever get off the ground with the weight of litigation attached to it. I have no idea how many clients bfx has but I'm pretty sure it's impossible to get them all to sign off on such a deal.

[–]cryptoreporter 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

/u/zanetackett Zane, can you please clarify the BFX token in some detail? Is it just an IOU sitting in the account until repayment, or will it be tradeable? If its just an IOU what is the repayment roadmap for it? 3 months? 6 months? 1 year?

[–]haroldkumar89 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

/u/zanetackett u guys are asking for 36% without even telling us how this hack happened ? What r u guys trying to hide ?

[–]chris59595 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank god, hope this goes through. Can't bear a bigger cut than that.

[–]Plaski 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

So those that were not affected by the lost BTC and only had fiat on their account, lose 36% fiat right off the back with the potential to get it back in X amount of time? The thought of people actually taking shares in the company is crazy. They will not come close to 50% of the volume they were doing prehack.

[–]joyrider5 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

36% is pretty high. They are going to get sued. Users are going to go after bitfinex owners personal assets, force them to sell the business to help make us whole, or go after employees who fucked up. Will be interesting!!

[–]allyougottadoLong-term Holder 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

You can't go after a corporation's owner's assets. That is precisely the point of creating a corporation or LLC versus operating as a sole prop or partnership.

[–]de_moonBullish 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Directors and officers could be personally liable, especially for criminal acts.

[–]cold_bluffer 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

so u wana bet on an unsure outcome v/s getting 64% now

[–]cold_bluffer 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ever heard of limited liability ? I really wish the BFX thing would go to some kind of court. I would like losing more than 36% of my account.

[–]cryptoreporter 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

They should have done 36.66% just to rub it in.

[–]cryptoreporter 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is how you launch a new crypto coin. Get others to pay for it.

[–]Ill_HAZE_llI 10ポイント11ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yay, bfxcoin. Another shitcoin to pump and dump. Its value is backed by the financials of a private company that doesn't release financials!

[–]haroldkumar89 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Haha they didn't give out the details on how they are hacked. Now they are asking for $70m

[–]de_moonBullish 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nobody asked, they just took.

[–]diogenetic 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

Does this mean that Bitfinex has spent the last x hours selling some users ETH, ETC, and LTC on other exchanges for BTC to distribute to other Bitfinex accounts?

[–]slacknation 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

unlikely, that's quite a lot to buy and sell

[–]diogenetic 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

But the haircut price depends on the price they sell/buy those coins at so how could they calculate that if they haven't already done so.

[–]slacknation 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

one easy way is to just use the settlement price they were using to settle all margin trades

[–]techknowledgy 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

If the altcoin and USD holders are taking a loss now too, where are those coins/$$$ going?

[–]allyougottadoLong-term Holder 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Words! Just sweet words that go in my ears and turn into bitter orange wax.
If I only suffer a 36% loss I'll be amazed. I'm still feeling pessimistic though. I wonder how long until they will allow withdrawals, because that's the first thing I want to do.

[–]JeanneDOrc 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, most likely it'll be more pessimistic than even your perception and the moonkids will have already forgotten by the time it's implemented.

[–]excited_by_typos 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I saw a traffic spike on CW and immediately knew this had happened, without even having to look lol

[–]zaphodq -2ポイント-1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Can anyone please explain what just happened! I hold mostly eth on bitfinex, am I getting robbed here? Will bitfinex tokens hold any value?

[–]JeanneDOrc 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The tokens are being provided in lieu of any items of value.

[–]IWantToSayThis 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

There was a massive bank robbery at BFX and as so you're affected since you held assets in said bank. Ever heard of a bank run? It doesn't matter if you had gold, USD or casino chips in the bank, when there's a bank run you get nothing. This is much better than that.

[–]whitney144 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes you are getting robbed. By the "hacker", and by Bitfinex.

Bitfinex tokens may have some value but we will never get the money back we lost..never.

And it still remains to be seen if we even get 64% of our money back. They site may never come back up and allow withdrawls.

[–]Ill_HAZE_llI 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

Assuming bitfinex comes back up and operates normally next week, how much will volume fall in a month? Any guesses?

[–]allyougottadoLong-term Holder 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'd expect by at least 50%. Confidence and trust is hard thing to gain and it's even harder to regain after a slip up. Even if they make good on their above statement, I for one will never trade or send a single deposit to bitfinex again.

[–]JeanneDOrc 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

50% is wayyyy optimistic but perhaps persons really are that gullible.

[–]excited_by_typos 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm very curious to see how the masses react to this once they can withdraw again.

[–]grandturbo 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

I read that the legal and other expenses involved in the Mt. Gox liquidation are $55 million and counting and people still haven't received any money yet. Better to just have this simulated liquidation right away. We get more of our money back by avoiding legal fees and don't have it tied up for years. I think this is the best case scenario and am pleased with the decision. Hopefully it avoids people from pursuing legal action because the ultimate consequence of legal action is formal liquidation ending up in a worse situation than we have now.

[–]FeedthemcakeBearish 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Without a doubt lawyers are already/ will be involved

[–]JeanneDOrc 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sooner than "law enforcement", that's for sure.

[–]RockyLeal 15ポイント16ポイント  (3子コメント)

I had a substantial ammount of dollars in a vanilla exchange wallet. My funds were not directly affected by the hack. And yet, I will take this deal in a heartbeat.

This is a million times better than bankruptcy. Bankruptcy only leads to years of seeing the haircut being made even worse via legal fees anyway. No one sees a penny for a very long time in a bankruptcy.

As someone whose funds were not hit by the attack, and yet will have to see my balance affected, I approve this solution and wish for the community to come together and support Bitfinex. We are all in this together, Bitfinex and us, so lets try to overcome this one coming back up fast and strong.

Congratulations for a Salomonic roadmap. Well done.

[–]IamSOFAkingRETARD 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

We are all in this together, Bitfinex and us

This is a company that is making money off of you. Someone owns this company and is making a lot of money from it. The shareholders of bitfinex are not "in it" the same as the customers of bitfinex. If they cannot make everyone whole then they need to sell the equity portion of the business. Creditors should be made whole before any equity holders see anything. If that means they have to sell bitfinex, then so be it.

[–]RockyLeal 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I was not forced to be a fee paying customer of this company. Other than my university, Bitfinex is probably the single entity i've paid more to; but i do it out of my own free choice because also through their platform i've made a lot of money.

Yes we are in this together because our success depends on each other: Bitfinex's needs me to be successful in my trades so i continue making them money, and i need them (more now) because i make money through them and if they thrive again ill get my 36% back.

Your brilliant idea of "selling the business" only achieves NO ONE SEEING A PENNY FOR THE NEXT 3 or 5 YEARS. And at the end getting a deeper haircut. Do you understand that? In practice this is great news for everyone who has money there right now. Hell, there's even a good chance the 100% will be eventually returned.

[–]CharredStrings 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Honestly. I also lost quite a bit and would absolutely love to take this deal over the shitshow that a bankruptcy filing would entail. Everyone clamoring for lawsuits and bankruptcy is only shooting themselves in the foot and would be damn lucky to get 64% of their money back, notwithstanding the shitcoin which may or may not pay back.

[–]cards237 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

How will the ETH/ETC/LTC/USD be distributed among everybody? Will they be exchanged for USD?? Or do we get a USD equivalent in those alt coins? Either way would lead to a sell off.

[–]DTresonate 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

I only held USD to protect from the fall that was obviously coming. 36% makes me puke but the alternative makes me die.

[–]FeedthemcakeBearish 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Now it's as if you held your btc through a sell off down from. 600 to about 384.00 and didn't short at all.

[–]two_zero_zero -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

This is not how things work. If you held USD on mtgox where only BTC was stolen you would be treated and compensated exactly the same as the BTC holders.

Besides, you thought bitfinex was obviously gonna get hacked and you held USD there because you thought they would not be affected? Sounds plausible.

[–]DTresonate 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's not coherently written, but I will say that I agree that even distribution of damages is the fairest way to go (basically a bankruptcy without the blood sucker fees).

[–]IWantToSayThis 16ポイント17ポイント  (8子コメント)

/u/zanetackett I have a question.

Is BFX taking a 36%, or more, or less cut on their assets too?

That is, is the haircut of 36% for customers the result of passing the 100% of losses only to customers while BFX takes none?

[–]IamSOFAkingRETARD 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

I dont understand how they can re-open the exchange if they don't have everyone's assets reimbursed. When they say that everyone is taking a 36% haircut, this means that they have less assets than liabilities. If a business owes more money than they can pay, even if they liquidate all assets, that business is insolvent. They need to close the doors and let lawyers decide who gets what. Why is bitfinex management allowed to make these decisions?

[–]de_moonBullish 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

If they give everyone a 36% haircut, this reduces the liability of "deposits owed to customers" by 36%.

They have yet to release the full details about how they came up with the number. Hopefully Bitfinex themselves took a hit as well and didn't just pass 100% of the loss onto the customer.

[–]IamSOFAkingRETARD 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is a business. They either make all creditors whole, through whatever means possible (selling the equity of the business) or else they file for bankruptcy. Creditors are to be paid before any equity holders receive anything. If it is still seen as a profitable business, then there will be an investor out there willing to buy the exchange.

[–]two_zero_zero 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm not sure about the law, but very few people want that due to the cost of bankruptcy.

[–]JeanneDOrc 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

But you won't get anything without a bankruptcy, either.

[–]whitney144 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

It only takes one person who does want that and can force the company into bankruptcy.

[–]Ill_HAZE_llI 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

What should be the case is the loses we something like 50% and they added their own assets into the pool to bring the number down to 36%.

[–]FeedthemcakeBearish 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why would they take a loss? /s

[–]drunkencryptosailor 11ポイント12ポイント  (17子コメント)

/u/zanetackett why are bitfinex's profits, not used to cover any losses? Why does it automatically fall on the people?

[–]IamSOFAkingRETARD 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

before anyone accepts a 36% haircut, i think the entire investigation details need to be disclosed. How did the hack happen? Which accounts were hacked? which address' hold the stolen funds? we need to know these details so we aren't having the wool pulled over our eyes

[–]haroldkumar89 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's all in Zane personal btc address..

[–]IamSOFAkingRETARD 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

There really needs to be a 3rd party doing this investigation and reporting to all those affected by this hack. I know Zane is a great guy and all but he is employed by Bitfinex. He is acting and reporting on what he is told by Bitfinex management. The interests of Bitfinex management and all the creditors are not aligned.

[–]Tulip-StefanLong-term Holder 3ポイント4ポイント  (7子コメント)

/u/zanetackett why are bitfinex's profits, not used to cover any losses? Why does it automatically fall on the people?

Because A) bitfinex assets might not be enough to cover all customers losses B) they clearly state they are looking for solutions to repay customers in full. Should customers be repaid in full, obviously those funds will come out of bitfinex' pocket in some way. Either by selling company shares, using a portion of the fees to repay customer assets, or by selling a part of the company to VC.

[–]IamSOFAkingRETARD 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

if they dont have the assets to cover customer losses, then they should not be opening up the exchange

[–]Tulip-StefanLong-term Holder 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

I suppose i agree. It will be a long time before they allow trading again, then.

[–]IamSOFAkingRETARD 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

good. I don't care if they ever open again. Sell the exchange to investors that can make all creditors whole, or else bankruptcy. How is it fair that a profit seeking business is able to give a haircut to their customers/creditors and continue operating?

[–]slacknation 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

hey man, what assets do u have with bfx? do u know bankruptcy won't create money out of thin air?

[–]RockyLeal 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Relevant username

[–]Tulip-StefanLong-term Holder 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

That depends on how you define a haircut. I only had a few thousand in bitfinex at time of the hack, but i would be willing to lend bitfinex the funds they lost for a reasonable interest rate. If enough customers do this this would make them 'solvent' again so they can resume trading.

Any involuntary share system if probably both unfair and poorly compatible with regulatory frameworks. But let's wait and see what they got.

[–]IamSOFAkingRETARD -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

When everyone made their deposits onto bitfinex, they were doing so as customers of the exchange, not as investors. Now if Bitfinex wants to offer all these people an equity share of the business to replace their lost funds and keep the exchange from bankruptcy, the people should be allowed to accept it, but they should not have to. If they don't want to have a 36% stake in the business, they shouldn't have to. It is up to Bitfinex and their management to find investors to cover this loss. It should not be forced upon the depositors.

[–]IWantToSayThis -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

But you don't know that. Maybe BFX took a much bigger loss (say, 80%) and only passed the 20% to the customers.

edit: not sure why I'm getting downvoted. We can't possibly make an assessment like that until we know the amount of assets that BFX had.

[–]Ravenous20 10ポイント11ポイント  (3子コメント)

Agreed. It would be nice to know how much if anything that Bitfinex is adding to the pool. By omitting that fact, one has to assume it's either nothing or something minimal.

[–]cards237 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

In a later announcement we will explain in full detail the methodology used to compute these losses.

 

Hopefully they will have an explanation for how they came up with that percentage.

[–]Ravenous20 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks, I must've missed that.

[–]jan1024188 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

We should let them keep their existing profits, provided it all goes to fixing security/technical debt, operations and growth. In that order.

Part of new profits should go to BFX token holders. As a token holder, it is in my interest to see exchange succeed. Sucking it dry of cash reserves or cashflow will surely kill it, taking out options for repayment.

[–]jan1024188 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

Well done Bitfinex.

You messed up on security, but the way you handled the situation is agreeable.

I had no BTC, some Exchange USD, some Swap USD and some ETH on there. I think socialized loss against all asset classes is the only fair thing to do.

Also, I hope you've learned your lesson. Time to hire some security experts and fix your shit.

I know its counter intuitive, but I think Bitfinex will probably turn out to be the most secure exchange in the future, simply because they had to go trough this massive pain to learn their lesson, and security shall be in their DNA going forward.

[–]vegaslunaLong-term Holder 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

not if they continue to keep all their "digital assets" in "the cloud" .. i won't even keep security logs on someone elses hardware, let alone data. i don't care how secure they tout themselves to be.. if you are not maintaining your own datacenter with quality hardware and your own engineer(s), then u aint the most secure exchange. my opinion is that programmers have just enough knowledge to xcrew something up, which is why i limit their access. i doubt BFX has one single "engineer" on their team. from what i gathered, they are a bunch programmers relying on "the cloud" to to handle all their engineering. i don't really know, but that is the impression i have gotten while reading through all this. yeah is probably more expensive, but thats real security.

[–]JeanneDOrc 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You take people at their word far too easily.

[–]7a11l409b1d3c65 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I know its counter intuitive, but I think Bitfinex will probably turn out to be the most secure exchange in the future.

At least you agree that it is counter intuitive.

[–]whitney144 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think Bitfinex will probably turn out to be the most secure exchange in the future

LOL

Not unless you get a complete change in management and security related personnel. And then it's possible.

[–]tersagun -1ポイント0ポイント  (5子コメント)

There is a slight problem with deposits made after the hack though;

the hack happened in the morning (UTC time) and they were aware of it. They did not stop the service for hours though. If they did, people wouldn't made any deposits. So in a way, they let people to deposit for hours EVEN THOUGH they knew about the hack. That is not nice and looks suspicious.

[–]two_zero_zero 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I sympathize with your position, but if mtgox is any indicator (the same happend there), they would not be treated any differently than anyone else.

[–]IWantToSayThis 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'm in that boat. I deposited after the deposit problems started and my BTC are sitting pretty in the deposit wallet.

[–]blessedbt 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

'Edit: One thing that I need to clarify is that bitcoin deposited after the hack was discovered is not subject to the loss. I'm waiting to hear back on the cutoff point.'

This is a quote from zane's thread in r/bitcoin

[–]IWantToSayThis 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks for sharing!

[–]tersagun 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That will be interesting to wait, thanks for sharing. I hope they will stand behind this.

[–]Ravenous20 21ポイント22ポイント  (12子コメント)

I think this was the right and only choice. It sucks for everyone but a 36℅ haircut/credit is not the end of the world and is certainly 10x better than losing everything or taking years to get back the exact same percentage through a bankruptcy and forced liquidation.

[–]SausageWizard 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

A 36% bail-in across the board means some people are literally paying thousands more than others in different asset classes. A plan which only seems to affect the customers and not the finances of Bitfinex itself. Some people have already stated that they were contacting multiple authorities in an attempt to force liquidation, so good luck collecting "credit" from Bitfinex a year from now if it's still operating after legal costs. You're also betting on the fact that they will not experience another hack at some point in the future. Two assumptions that are worth about as much as their IOU tokens.

[–]Chaos_Elephant 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree. The only other option is full liquidation of the company which might end up as:

  • A, de facto 30% haircuts for everyone anyway, except fully in fiat

  • B, a far less likely scenario, individualized losses depending on the exact nature of your assets on Bfx

But if you push for full liquidation you might not even know where the case will resolved, what the outcome will be, and due to the complicated nature of the potential case your assets will be locked up for at least 3-4 years or more before you can even touch them. Then, before paying all the specialist lawyers, you might still end up with scenario A, with the difference that you'll get fiat only after they sell all the coins at whatever price the market will be buying them at an auction at a random time in the future.

[–]RockyLeal 10ポイント11ポイント  (6子コメント)

It's not a haircut in the full sense because they do propose a roadmap to full payment. I suggest that we stop calling it haircut because that creates confusion.

[–]JeanneDOrc -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

They propose it but will not implement it, people have short memories and people are already planning on returning to trade on that garbage fire.

[–]Ravenous20 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

You are right that it's not a haircut. It's also not a credit since we don't know if it'll ever get repaid. I guess the better term would be a 36℅ IOU.

[–]whitney144 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (3子コメント)

because they do propose a roadmap to full payment

A roadmap through never-never land.

[–]--_-___-_-- 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Exactly, I don't understand why people are believing what Zane is writing. This is damage control, absolutely nothing solid at all.

As if customers had no legal recourse in a case like this.

[–]slacknation 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

what do u suggest then? lol

[–]whitney144 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly, I don't understand why people are believing what Zane is writing.

Because people are dumb and naive.

[–]two_zero_zero 8ポイント9ポイント  (2子コメント)

Agree 100%. Very happy with the update. This is infintely better than mtgox 2.0.

[–]brexitshmexit -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Mais que nada, if it's not bs and we'll indeed get the money. Anyone who stays with them is suicidal though.

[–]whitney144 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It ain't over yet.

[–]tux_pirata -4ポイント-3ポイント  (14子コメント)

After much thought, analysis, and consultation, we have arrived at the conclusion that losses must be generalized across all accounts and assets

This is bullshit, only btc users got theirs stolen, socialize among them

[–]two_zero_zero 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

You want preferential treatment based on luck?

Get real, you are not special.

[–]tux_pirata 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

What luck are you talking about? you shitting me? btc basically have a sign that say "steal me", its an asset with irreversible transaction, if you use btc you have to accept the risk, don't come crying to others to pay for your mistake.

[–]JeanneDOrc 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Your scheme to protect yourself did not account for counterparty risk.

[–]two_zero_zero -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I didn't have BTC stolen. I, like you had funds on BitFinex, which was victim of a theft. They owe us all equally, but can no longer make good on those promises.

If you held USD on mtgox you get the exact same treatment as BTC holders. Other cryptos would be no different.

Again, get real, you are not special.

[–]Ravenous20 7ポイント8ポイント  (9子コメント)

You wouldn't be saying the same thing if the asset you were holding was the only theft.

The bottom line is that the money was stolen from the company and a bankruptcy liquidation would spread losses to everyone. This is certainly better than bankruptcy which could take years and we'd get the exact same back. Furthermore, there is at least a chance that we eventually recoup 100℅.

[–]tux_pirata -2ポイント-1ポイント  (6子コメント)

I held fiat because btc always get stolen, it is ridiculous that we have to compensate for the idiots who were gambling with btc

In any case fiat users should get a much smaller haircut, like less than 10%

[–]IWantToSayThis 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

[said while keeping USD on a BTC exchange]

[–]amaruspirit 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Even if you held just USD and someone hacked your account they can use it to buy Btc and get the fuck out. USD isn't inherently more or less safe than any crypto currency when it's on the exchange.

[–]drazzr 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

You were still holding the USD on an exchange..

[–]gicafranaru 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you held fiat but lended it than you should have thought you lend it to people buying bitcoin, which cant pay you back if it gets stolen

[–]two_zero_zero 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you held USD in mtgox you would have taken the same haircut as BTC holders so this is not how it works.

[–]db100p 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

"This is certainly better than bankruptcy which could take years and we'd get the exact same back. "

Minus the fatcat lawyer fees...

[–]JeanneDOrc 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

How the hell else do you plan on taking action? Sending pizzas to Zane's apartment?