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First Impressions of MGTOW (rogerkeays.com)

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[–]Izta20 9ポイント10ポイント  (6子コメント)

Something is wrong with that website. You can see the article for a splitsecond and then the page goes blank. Even the archive.is page for that article is blank.

[–]GreatRedYeti 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'm seeing the same thing so here is the article body copied for convenience from page source:

Today I discovered a fascinating community of men online. They call themselves Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW), and all of them have opted out of the dating game. Some have even opted out of participating in society altogether.

Sounds whiney, right? Well, only on the surface. What you discover when you dig a bit deeper is that many of these men are quite the catch, and they know it. Instead of spending their time dating, they share information about entrepreneurship, commit themselves to creative projects, learn about investing, look after their health, and practise self improvement. And they do this all for themselves.

The MGTOW community congregates around one core belief: that dating is not worth it. This is a surprising conclusion, since thanks to the introduction of the contraceptive pill and women's liberalisation, the cost of sex is at an all time low. Throw in hook-up apps and dating websites like Tinder and OkCupid (is that still the main one?), and the dating marketplace looks heavily stacked in men's favour.

So why opt out? There are two sides to this equation. On the one side, the speed dating culture that technology swept in does not actually favour men. It simply reinforces how replaceable they are. Men (and probably women too) are sick of being discarded. On the other side, some men no longer feel sufficiently incentivised by what women have to offer. Or to put it in economic terms, dating fails a cost-benefit analysis.

Sex has little value to men who have had plenty of it. For them, women need to bring something else to the table. Traditionally, this was maternal care, emotional support, and a promise of fidelity. Today, however, the same forces of liberalisation which drove down the cost of dating also scattered those auxiliary benefits to the wind.

In hindsight, this shouldn't be all that surprising. Markets, and dare I say it, nature itself, do not tolerate imbalance. When the environment changes, behaviours change, and the ecosystem adapts. Once buyers and sellers hit evolutionarily stable strategies, the market settles around a new equilibrium point. MGTOW communities are just part of that new equilibrium.

It's difficult for me to decide whether the MGTOW choice is healthy or not. All we can say is that it exists, and it is growing in popularity. But the market will shift. It is always shifting. Which makes me wonder... when will we see an active WGTOW community?

[–]sir_wankalot_here 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That is wierd, the article was fine a couple hours ago, it is just that one page. The rest of the site is ok

[–]rogerkeays[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

One of the comments mangled the page. It's fixed now.

[–]realpra 13ポイント14ポイント  (2子コメント)

Well ok for someone who just found out about it, but some corrections:

  1. Speed dating favors women who get to bang Chads all the time, not men. 80-90% of men are considered ugly by women (actual science). In societies that don't liberate women these men had a chance - today all they can hope for is getting their wallets emptied.

  2. We will NEVER see WGTOW because women as a general rule don't know anything, can't build anything and can't fix anything. Their intelligence is not that far from that of a man, but their "fuck you"/victim-attitudes prevents any hard endeavor or them working together.

[–]Im_Justin_Cider 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Women think WGTOW is; I don't need need no man; i'm independent (+ on benefits.)

True WGTOW is fuck you to daddy government, and supporting your man instead.

[–]nbennett2q5 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Society should never have liberated women

[–]General_Fear 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

The last sentence if funny. When will we see WGTOW. The answer is never. Because women lose money if they pull themselves out of the dating pool. Men on the other hand gain money.

Women will never pull themselves out of the dating pool. Women play with a man's affections. They dangle the possibility of sex in order to get free stuff from a guy.

[–]Ailer 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

I made the case to the opposite in the comments on the article. Women already went their own way: it was called feminism. Society simply followed them since society needs them to continue existing/breeding. Women can try to go their own way, but men will follow and offer free stuff to them regardless for the opportunity to breed. As you point out, women have taken advantage of this situation.

[–]General_Fear 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Interesting point of view. Feminism is women going their own way. Never saw it that way. Good post.

[–]rogerkeays[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

This is one of the hidden advantages of being the initiator: you can choose not to.

[–]Ailer 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yes, but choosing not to means choosing to not have children, and consequently, choosing to have no future beyond yourself. And as a surprisingly large amount of this sub-reddit shows, choosing to be hounded incessantly for making the "wrong" choice. For example this nice little self post. I'm not even going to bother linking to a "Where have all the good men gone" article... they are far to numerous to imagine any reader hasn't encountered one.

Being the initiator is not necessarily a position of power: often times the reason initiation happens is because of desperation, not choice. The man who set himself on fire in Tunisia didn't initiate the Arab spring because he was in a position of power: quite the opposite in fact.

Wanting to breed in not a choice. It is a biological necessity. Being the initiator for breeding means being rejected. Being the chooser risks no such hazard. Hence why 80% of women throughout history have managed to breed, while only 40% of men have. To say being the initiator in the sexual marketplace is an advantage is foolish to the extreme: being the initiator is nothing but an admission the other party is more important, that you need them more than they need you.

(Also, apologies for breaking the article. Pretty sure it was my comment that did it in)

[–]rogerkeays[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wanting to breed is not a choice.

I agree with this, but probably not in the sense that you intended it. Wanting to breed is not a choice in the same sense that not wanting to breed is not a choice. The desire for children (or lack of) turns out to be one of those intrinsic traits that people have varied propensity to. For me it is very low, which is something I inherited from my father.

There is a common misconception in the manosphere that if you fail to breed, you are an evolutionary dead-end. The truth is, your genes are already in abundance in the gene pool. You are just one of gazillions of possible subsets of those genes. Rolling the dice a few more times (by having children) won't have any significant impact on the gene pool whatsoever.

being the initiator is nothing but an admission the other party is more important, that you need them more than they need you.

Being an initiator is a side-effect of the principle of least interest (i.e. the person with the least interest in a transaction has the most power). It is not related to who is more important or valuable. For example, even though sex is better for women, males still have to initiate due to their greater demand for sex.

(Also, apologies for breaking the article. Pretty sure it was my comment that did it in)

That's cool. Your comment was really good. I think some bad code somehow crept in from cut and paste. Annoying...

[–]wordjedi 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

He definitely has a point about what he calls "speed dating". I don't think he means literally that dumb event where you go from table to table when a bell rings every couple of minutes. I think he means Tinder and hookup culture generally. In the end it becomes a free brothel for below average to hot women to hook up with a few very well sexed handsome chads.

The whole thing is tiresome if you are unable to remake yourself into a chad for whatever reason. Maybe you can't put on enough lean mass, maybe you don't make enough money, maybe your facial esthetics are sub-par, or maybe you're just short. For any of those guys you either get nothing or endless fatties (but only if you're not fat yourself).

As a tallish and fit middle aged guy I can get online dates and hookups pretty easily if I'm willing to date women my own age (which I am), but I can never give them what they want. Hurl you against the wall, crazy hot monkey sex. It's not that my libido went away, it's just that me getting older didn't suddenly make slightly doughy 40+ ladies hawt. They're meh, so my attraction is meh. All I can give them is meh sex.

I think the only way to thrive in this modern sexual marketplace as a non-chad is to have a novelty fetish. ONSing any random human whether attractive or not, is crazy hot, then you move on to the next rando.

[–]I-am-the-lul 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It is the choice presented to those born to a dying society: you can abandon the dying beast, you can take advantage of it, or you can hopelessly try to save it. Men Going Their Own Way have made the first choice: abandon the beast, and let it die. Pick Up Artists and their sort fall into the second category: take advantage of it and get what you can before it dies. Anti-Feminists and MRAs make up the bulk of the third group, pointlessly holding in the beasts organs in a hope it will get better.

QFFT

[–]TajMy 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Roger (OP), I rather liked the article. I am glad to see the economic analysis. Too much of sex/romance/dating/marriage is focused on feelings. One side-effect of studying markets is that you start to see markets EVERYWHERE. And I think you hit the nail on the head by calling dating an "ecosystem".

One of my favorite academic subjects was linear systems vs. non-linear, and interactive dynamic systems. They're easy to see everywhere, especially in social policy (e.g. manipulating tax rates may have predictable results until suddenly there's some tipping-point; or implementing some new commerce law incentivizes people in ways that weren't foreseen).

For me, what led me to MGTOW philosophy was, in fact, economics. I exhausted my incentive to cooperate with my former way of thinking. Like many men, there was a tipping-point moment: THIS ISN'T WORTH IT ANYMORE.

Truly free markets have a remarkable ability to self-adjust, self-police, self-heal, all without external regulation. People naturally figure out what's best for themselves. And I do wonder what Western Civ will look like in 50 years. The market's message to men now: Don't Marry. It's actually a bit frightening to consider how the 'market' will look in 20, 30, 50 years.