全 71 件のコメント

[–]natcat_ 85ポイント86ポイント  (8子コメント)

The comic says pretty much all there is to say on the matter for this particular word. But more generally it's shocking to me and very disappointing that SJ-oriented people sometimes seem to latch on to a discourse that identifies social failure with moral failure. There is an obvious problem with this--it's unjust to people who don't do well socially for reasons that are entirely independent of their moral character.

An even more subtle problem, though, and a seriously damaging one, is that drawing this implication from misogyny (or racism, or homophobia, etc.) to "not having any friends" contradicts one of the most basic principles of the way society and culture is analyzed from a SJ perspective. That is, all of these forms of bigotry permeate the norms and standards of our society, so a person who does hold bigoted beliefs would not necessarily have any social problems whatsoever; in fact they may be very socially successful. And misogynists often are.

In general I think people in our community sometimes neglect to be as critical as they should be about these things. In my opinion, any person who cares about social justice should meet absolutely any insult that is new to them with extreme suspicion. After all, every insult has content and is meant to denigrate some set of qualities or behaviors, but we don't get to decide what set of qualities or behaviors are associated with the word. So we need to be aware of these things before we go around making words like "neckbeard" a part of our verbal armory.

[–]Batsy22 55ポイント56ポイント  (5子コメント)

You just perfectly verbalized a problem I've always had with the social justice community. I suffer from social anxiety and it's always really alienating when I hear neurotypical people who are apparently concerned about my liberation start talking about how people who don't socialize are losers.

[–]StumbleOn 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ableism is really bad in all communities and it is grating to hear it in places that talk about respect for others.

[–]chowdahdog 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

Honest question. Do you see your social anxiety as a neuro problem, as in your brain wiring was, is, and always will be socially anxious, rather than say, a product of your environment/social upbringing?

[–]alcockell 8ポイント9ポイント  (2子コメント)

It can be. One thing the ASD brain never had on the spec sheets was a mirror-neuron board. Has to be run under emulation - which is EXHAUSTING... so subcomm channels are more likely to be missed unless they can be actively pattern-matched. Add to that the Intense World recent findings - the squelch has to be turned down... otherwise too much social "static". Think old-world HAM and CB radio comms.

[–]chowdahdog 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ok, didn't realize the social anxiety was related to ASD, which in that sense it makes sense as a neuro thing.

[–]alcockell 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I didn't know body language was a thing until I read Allan Pease's book in 1987. This also cross-references if you look at Maxine Aston's books on romantic relating for folk on the spectrum - crossmatch that with Neil Strauss's The Game - it puts RPG-type game mechanics around the mating dance... makes it quantifiable.

Same with MMSL etc... the PASSIVE elements of Game are useful - so the ASD brain can pattern-match the inbound nonverbal comms.

[–]Mitya_Fyodorovich 20ポイント21ポイント  (0子コメント)

The subtext of that, to expand, becomes that sexually and socially successful people can't be prejudiced. Which is even more damaging because it prevents the examination of self that is essential to moral growth.

[–]VexAndSilence 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

Right on. It is really odd that communities so dedicated to breaking down problematic associations, stereotypes, and received bigotries can still imagine that beautiful people are good and that ugly people are bad.

The neckbeard caricature is probably a dogwhistle for Asperger's and the autism spectrum. I don't sing this song a lot, but I am forever uncomfortable with how many people politicize their revulsion at unkempt, awkward men. No, laughing at someone's body type and lack of social graces don't need to be part of a circlejerk about social justice.

[–]WhyWyoming 24ポイント25ポイント  (1子コメント)

The worst part is how the meme shames living at home, when not everyone has the ability to move out for financial reasons or otherwise.

[–]PrettyIceCube 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Also the moving out of home thing is a cultural thing and in many other cultures families will live together.

[–]Katrengia 24ポイント25ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'm not fond of neckbeard, just like I don't enjoy when people use "virgin" or "autistic" as insults either. Generally I go for "asshole" if I'm going to say anything at all. It's insulting without singling out a particular group of people. I mean, if you asked me if "neckbeard" was as problematic as the million and one other slurs the racist, sexist reddit hordes used on a daily basis, I'd say no, but I try to steer clear of all of them.

[–]alcockell 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

Thank you, from a 40something Asperger male virgin (walked away from sex due to socialisation of it as a massive responsibility back in the 80s) - who was a victim of female-on-male sexual abuse (erased by Mary Koss), apparently ought to be incarcerated as a male victim of female rape (Greer), should die (Ford), and Caucasian heterosexual - so should apparently be incarcerated (Bindel).

The term "neckbeard" plays into TERF/SWERF/MERF hands...

[–]Katrengia 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

who was a victim of female-on-male sexual abuse

So sorry to hear that. I hope you have since gotten the help you need to move past such a traumatic thing. While it's a positive thing that male victims are starting to get recognition as actual victims in the areas of sexual assault and domestic abuse, I know there is still a long way to go. If you haven't been there, I'd recommend /r/MensLib as a good place to discuss male-centric issues without the racism and sexism of many other reddit subs.

[–]SoullessGingerCat 37ポイント38ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't believe in shaming people because of their physical appearance ever. And it's really hypocritical to get angry when MRAs stereotype feminists as fat with unnatural hair color and then go around calling them neckbeards. Both are equally not okay.

[–]timant123 53ポイント54ポイント  (14子コメント)

Yes. Yes yes yes yes yes. How do people not fucking see this?

Besides attempting to abuse a demographic that doesn't even exist, when you use the term neckbeard derogatorily you are engaging in

  • Fat shaming

  • Virgn shaming

  • Hygeine shaming

  • Classism

  • Ableism

  • Feeding into patriarchal norms about how an ideal male should behave.

[–]Bmonkey5 39ポイント40ポイント  (11子コメント)

Hygeine shaming

yeah I don't think its unreasonable to expect people to take a shower or a bath every day or even every other day when you have access to one.

[–]Mistling 24ポイント25ポイント  (6子コメント)

1) Not everyone has access. Homeless people exist. Homeless people are among the most marginalized people in "first world" countries, their needs are important, and yes, many of them use the internet and are involved in social justice communities. I literally know a handful of people who frequent the SJ parts of Tumblr and Reddit who are homeless or sometimes-homeless and often have no access to showers—they have feelings, just like anyone else.

2) Not everyone who has access is able. Plenty of people with disabilities of all sorts are unable to maintain a high level of personal hygiene. Like homeless people, these people are likely to be severely marginalized and are thus precisely one of the demographics social justice advocacy ought to aim to protect. I, myself, am multiply disabled and occasionally find it difficult or impossible to shower regularly. On top of all that shit, I get to be a trans woman; which is to say that my life is already difficult enough without so-called allies and advocates shaming me for something I literally have no control over.

It's perfectly fine to dislike smelling unpleasant odors. I know I do. And it's perfectly fine to encourage people to maintain as high a level of hygiene as they can. It's even fine not to hang out with unhygienic people if it bothers you that much. But it's not okay to shame people for things that aren't unethical—especially when those people are likely to be suffering already.

[–]AliceHouse 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

Also diets. Some folk got drastically different diets (like milk drinkers) and consequently have drastically different smells (like smelling of milk.)

They smell different, and may be made fun of, despite their hygeine being just fine.

[–]Mistling 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's true. This issue (the "hygiene" one, not "neckbeard" specifically) also intersects with racism in some nasty ways—like when (mostly white) people stigmatize Indian and Arabic people and others because they don't like the smell of non-Western spices.

As someone who has sensory processing issues, I totally understand needing to consider what kinds of smells and sensory input one invites into their personal spaces, and making those needs and preferences known to someone can be hurtful however you do it; but shaming is never the answer.

[–]Hadge_Padge 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

I wholeheartedly disagree. They might not see the value in it. They might think it wastes water. They might have any sort of reason or belief for not showering that they are not obligated to explain to you. Showers every other day is an arbitrary standard.

edit: I'm getting outvoted... but let me paste here what got buried under the deleted comment below; it's a bit more apt:

Look. The basic principle of what I'm saying is that, although some people are unpleasant to be around, it is not fair to cast uninformed judgement upon them when you don't know their situation.

[–]VexAndSilence 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Anyone can expect other people to conform to social norms like that, sure. It's just that the neckbeard image is meant to be a dogwhistle for autism. Politicizing an image of right-wing internet trolls as people who are (to the viewer) literal unloveable trolls throws a lot of people under the bus and it isn't good.

Is hygiene-shaming in the same category as, say, slut-shaming or something? No, I don't think so. Do we need to nitpick people who are ultimately saying "stop throwing people on the spectrum under the bus to create an image of alt-righters as physically repulsive?" We sure don't.

[–]Batsy22 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

There was an article from a trans woman I read in which she talked about how she was very uncomfortable about the term as she had facial hair she couldn't get rid of. So beyond the general problem with judging people based on the appearence, I think the term is super cissexist and transmisogynist.

[–]therapy 8ポイント9ポイント  (29子コメント)

It's definitely something that should not be used. It's frequency seems to be decreasing, at least - once it was basically everywhere online, from the alt-right to social justice, which as the comic points out is a rare coalition of hatred.

I do have a criticism of that comic, though. It says the word is bad for some valid reasons, like the connection to autism negativity and body-shaming. But that's the easy route: it's using things the audience already knows are bad, and saying "hey, this is like that, so it's also bad." Which is fine - but the article very clearly steps around a major issue that really seems bizarre to not mention. As the article says,

what's implied is that he's a fat loser, lives in a basement, never had a girlfriend, and so on

Very true. But it's also very clear that the word is used to refer to nerds. In fact that quoted description is obviously a stereotypical nerd. ("Likes Star Trek" could easily be added, but would provide almost no new information.)

The comic also says, correctly, that those hurt by "neckbeard" are guys who don't like conventional gender roles and who are already hurt by toxic masculinity. That category includes groups like gay men, nerds, and others. But does "loser", "lives in a basement", etc. apply to any of those besides nerds?

Why do I mention all this? Because the replacements for "neckbeard" on the social justice side are not good either. I've seen attempts to popularize things like "misogynerd", "unfuckable hate nerd". That just diverts the hatred of nerds into a different channel.

[–]fosforsvenne 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Just a question, what do you associate with the word? Reading some of the replies I get the impression some think of quite different things from what I do.

[–]Jumpbutton 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've always hated the term because it comes down to "this person I don't like must be unattractive" I always felt that people should be above judging someone based on their looks

[–]barbadosslim 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Of course. The whole point is to be insulting because of a characteristic. You're going to lump decent people in who have that characteristic.

[–]GreenBreenMachine 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes, and that's why insults are bad in general. You're implying the characteristic is bad and discriminating against all those who possess it. About the only exceptions are derogatory terms that literally mean bad such as "evil" or "wicked".

[–]typhoidgrievous -1ポイント0ポイント  (5子コメント)

I came across someone on TrollX who used the term "unfuckable hatenerd" instead. I like it.

[–]pods_and_cigarettes 12ポイント13ポイント  (3子コメント)

We're still talking about fuckability and social ability with "unfuckable hatenerd", though.

[–]higeo -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

Honestly, is "unfuckable hatenerd" really that offensive? Like, I get how ableist or transmisogynistic "neckbeard" can be, but I rather like using the former term over the latter one.

[–]nubyrd 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Deriding someone as "unfuckable" is reinforcing toxic masculinity, as it tacitly supports the idea that someone's worth is tied to their sexual desirability.

I don't see too much of a problem with "hatenerd" on it's own, although others may have different opinions.

[–]GreenBreenMachine 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Honestly, "unfuckable hatenerd" seems like a "neckbeard" equivalence term. It still seems to target the same demographic: ugly, fat loser living in his mom's basement. Even taken literally, you're saying there's something wrong with being a virgin or a nerd. Additionally, there's just no way to use the word "nerd" as a derogatory term without implicitly targeting people with autism. Autistic people have trouble socializing and are often obsessive about their interests. Is it any wonder there's so much overlap?

And consider the causal relationship here. Maybe there's a reason anti-SJW-ism is prevelant among the "nerd" demographic. Maybe something to do with being on the disadvantaged end of the axes of privilege most overlooked/dismissed by the social justice community?

[–]zzxyyzx 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

well, but that still has the connotations that being "fuckable" implies being on the "right" side, so to speak.