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Moderator Clarification of Legal Precedent Regarding Rule 3? (Mod Response Requested) (self.pokemongo)

CyrusTheRed が 投稿 - announcement

I'm really hoping for a mod to step into this thread and answer my simple question. I'm not going to go down the rabbit hole of personal opinion regarding Rule 3 and the Mod's choices but I would like something clarified. Over and over again you Moderators use the exact same line in defense of Rule 3 in the ongoing rule update thread, the same line over and over again from different moderators seemingly copy and pasted-

From a legal standpoint, they (Niantic) have the right to (decide what is considered 'cheating'). If we allow our users to advocate the usage of apps that are in violation of Niantic's ToS, they have the legal right to send our community a cease and desist order, forcing us to shut down the sub. We can't let that happen, so we must stick to these strict rules.

For the last few years I've been actively studying to become a lawyer here in the United States and I am incredibly curious how you the moderators have come to this opinion. Did you consult with any legal representation before hand? If so I would really love to know specifically what U.S. Legal Code or case example you are going off in making that claim, and also specifically what section of Niantic's ToS for Pokemon Go you are referencing. Again, without condoning or condemning this choice I just want to understand all the facts that lead you to this standpoint.

Of course Niantic as the owner of Pokemon Go are the complete arbiters of their software and have the final word as to what is cheating or improper in regards to the USAGE of their product. The tracking sites such as Pokevision were reliant on data extracted from their product moment to moment in order to function and added server load meaning Niantic was fully in their right to remove that third party software's ability to function especially since (a small handful of) these services were charging without paying royalties to Niantic. Niantic is also fully in their rights to require a ToS approval before allowing access to their product, however their legal input effectively ends at 'the border' of their software regardless of what they claim in their ToS. As it is Terms of Service in most courts are considered unconscionable- For example Niantic would be legally allowed to include a byline in the ToS for PoGO that users have to wear the colors of their chosen in game team (Red/Blue/Yellow) when playing PoGO, even though such an item would be considered legally unenforceable in court for the consumer as it exceeds the boundaries of the software's usage.

Niantic (to my understanding) should have absolutely no power to dissuade discussion or complaint of their product in a third party forum (Reddit, r/PokemonGo in this case) regardless of the form that conversation may take. Niantic is of course in their right to request that any third party not actively participate in or promote what they deem a violation of their software but it's just that- a request. They have no legal standing to force any third party to assume such a stance one way or the other. A good example of this in US law can be found in the ongoing Marijuana debate, Police can not arrest someone for advocating the use of Marijuana in a public forum even though it is considered a Schedule 1 Illegal Narcotic by US laws, but using or trafficking said Narcotic in a public forum is specifically considered a criminal offense by US Law and is subject to legal intervention.

This of course is just the tip of the iceberg on this issue and isn't even giving due consideration to consumer rights here in the US let alone jurisdictional issues as this product is available in many different countries at this point. So once again, my question is this- What US law or specific case are you moderators using to justify banning reddit users for discussing what would equate to a thought crime rather than any actual legal infraction against Niantic's rights as the software creator, or is this just word play to pass off responsibility of the moderators choice of self censoring by making it seem you had no choice?

I also would like to invite any other lawyers, legal officials, or armchair legal aficionados to also weigh in on this matter- AGAIN not just bemoaning the enacting of Rule 3 but a discussion of the actual legal precedent being claimed.

*Edited- Corrected Grammar in places.

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[–]D0cR3d[M] [スコア非表示] stickied comment (83子コメント)

I apologize a head of time for a short-ish response due to being at work, but being dedicated to the sub I wanted to reply.

Basically boils down to the fact that if heat comes to reddit admins due to something our community is doing, allowing, provoking, or encouraging, then the admins could shut down our subreddit. We want the subreddit to live and thrive, so we don't want that to happen, so we are being a little extra cautious.

In addition, we don't have the support to monitor every game install file shared, and many people have very bad intentions. We would like to keep this community safe and not allow some bad malware file to get upvoted on the principle that they are 'helping' the community by providing something without checking if it's safe or not before they upvote it, thus adding in their support, and promoting the comment or post to the top, for even more people to get hurt.

Fuck, we see a lot of spam, malware, on this sub just due to sheer volume.

[–]Sweet_Ass_Slowbro 41ポイント42ポイント  (0子コメント)

I find it interesting that on this very website this is a Reddit where students can discuss their ACT scores and inquire about certain questions on the ACT. As it turns out, this is a direct violation of the terms of service of the ACT testing board, yet the moderators of that Reddit continue to allow discussion to grow and flourish with little to no concern about potential repercussions from the ACT testing board. Maybe we could learn a thing or two from them.

[–]abomino 132ポイント133ポイント  (10子コメント)

Rule #3 is terrible. Not only is it extremely vague, but it stifles community discussion.

A good example would be mods for PC games. They're against ToS, but there are huge communities devoted to it.
If they had gotten the same treatment you're giving us now, that would have never been a thing.
There's even whole games that have spawned from mods, which again, are against ToS.

[–]jnjustice 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

Maybe they want us to make a new subreddit?

[–]itsiceyo 9ポイント10ポイント  (4子コメント)

its supposed to be vague

[–]abomino 16ポイント17ポイント  (3子コメント)

I know, and that's just one of the problems many people have with this new rule.

[–]animebop 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The other method would be a zero tolerance rule, where they very strictly defined the rules and came down really hard on anyone who broke it.

It's either vague and flexible or strict and, well, strict.

[–]PM_ME_COOKIESS 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's not a problem with a rule that's the way legislation should be written so it can be properly argued from both sides.

[–]abomino 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Except legislation is normally written, or at least attempted to be written, in a way that doesn't allow many interpretations because that would clog up the judicial system.

[–]KiloGex -3ポイント-2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think the difference here is that Niantic has come out and expressed a severe dislike of third party websites and apps that allow you to break their ToS, while PC games (Skyrim, for instance) encourage such modding and - while it still breaks their ToS - will not seek to shut down any such sites.

While Niantic doesn't have a legal precedent to speak of, the fact that they are willing to throw ToS out there and threaten legal action (which sites like Pokevision and Reddit still have to pay the fees for, even if they are absurd lawsuits) is often enough for these third parties to either shut down or tighten restrictions.

[–]abomino 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

GTA V is a prefect example in direct opposition to your point.

Rockstar cracked down on mods because they didn't like them, but not one of the popular PC subs shut down mod talk.

[–]KiloGex 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Actually that's not really true. Rockstar has stated several times that they have no issues with single player mods, it's the multiplayer mods that give one person an advantage over the others that they have banned people for and cracked down on. But to this day, nobody has been banned for only using single player mods in any of their games.

And this is Niantics issue with third party sites; they feel that it gives players who use it an unfair advantage over the other players. This is absolutely true; you cannot argue with them on that one. It doesn't mean that those third party apps and sites aren't a necessary evil for actually tracking anything in the game at this point, however it doesn't negate the fact that they are still against the ToS, Niantic does not approve of them, and they give players who use them an "unfair" advantage (in a broken game).

[–]Koolaid5472 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

Have my up vote cyrusthered esquire

[–]DoctectiveMagmar bootyface 28ポイント29ポイント  (4子コメント)

/r/pokemongodev would likely have already been cease & desisted if "saving the sub" was the case.

If you leech, just remember to give the creators feedback.

[–]cleesusAll my text is minor 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

So would /r/pokemongobotting

[–]LeagueOfVideo[🍰] 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I believe pokemongodev and pokemongobotting should just be posted on the sidebar thing with the rule intact. A lot of players aren't interested in third party tools so I think its good to keep the sub from being flooded with them.

[–]DoctectiveMagmar bootyface 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

The sub was never flooded with them.

[–]LeagueOfVideo[🍰] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I have seen a pretty good amount of pokevision posts on here. Flooded? I guess not but I definitely saw quite a few. Then again the regular posts of pictures, complaints, etc aren't really any better.

[–]Shreddy94 40ポイント41ポイント  (3子コメント)

I hope this blows up

[–]ToasterToasts 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Phrasing.

[–]lolPhrasing 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes?

Also... You could say this is more of a gray area bordering a danger zone of sorts.

[–]TrainerBoberts 23ポイント24ポイント  (0子コメント)

As a non US, non lawyer, I am very interested in this

[–]shootx 21ポイント22ポイント  (0子コメント)

Long time armchair expert aka IANAL , rule 3 is bad and the mods should feel bad(insert meme). Capitulation in fear of the reddit admin group over something not illegal is a huge overreaction. It isn't like jailbait postings where there is actual legal risk and unethical behavior. If Niantic pressured the mods at all they need to expose that shit and not punish people for making work around to an admittedly broken system.

[–]williamfwm 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Drew

tl;dr: TOSes can't create new laws. They're just contracts. The worst they can do is ban you from their service. They can't give themselves tentacles that expand outside their service.

Legal experts expressed concern that the prosecution sought effectively to criminalize any violation of web site terms of service.[20] Andrew M. Grossman, senior legal analyst for the Heritage Foundation, said "If this verdict stands ... it means that every site on the Internet gets to define the criminal law. That's a radical change. What used to be small-stakes contracts become high-stakes criminal prohibitions."[1]

A cease and desist based on "encouraging TOS violation" has no legal teeth. If you get one, tell Niantic where they can stick it

[–]Harlequinphobia 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

So instead of having all of the info on the game in one heavily populated sub, this will cause a huge rift and force a good chunk of the people to walk away and make another sub. Saw this happen with the two Fallout subs when F4 leaked and they refused to show anything, or allow talk of it. Great way to piss off the community.

[–]ToasterToasts 16ポイント17ポイント  (2子コメント)

Mods, go look up how law works, because your interpretation of the law makes no goddamn sense.

Rule 3 is invalid.

[–]KiloGex 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Unfortunately it's a private service, so whatever they want to do they can. The mods can make up any rules they want and ban anyone for breaking those rules. That's just how private organizations work. No law required.

[–]Berstich -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

but...the mods control this sub, dont they? So they determine the rules?

[–]ScienceBAE 17ポイント18ポイント  (12子コメント)

Multiple mod replies, but none answering the actual question?

"I would really love to know specifically what U.S. Legal Code or case example you are going off in making that claim, and also specifically what section of Niantic's ToS for Pokemon Go you are referencing."

[–]sellymeoh god i'm on fire help -3ポイント-2ポイント  (11子コメント)

specifically what section of Niantic's ToS for Pokemon Go you are referencing

I can cover this one.

https://support.pokemongo.nianticlabs.com/hc/en-us/articles/221993967

No cheating.

Don’t do it. Play fair. Pokémon GO is meant to be played on a mobile device and get you outside to explore your world! Methods of cheating, unfortunately, are limited only by cheaters’ imaginations, but include at a minimum the following: using modified or unofficial software; playing with multiple accounts (one account per player, please); sharing accounts; using tools or techniques to alter or falsify your location; or selling/trading accounts.

(Emphasis is mine)

[–]Turil 8ポイント9ポイント  (4子コメント)

Technically if we're discussing the game on /r/Pokemongo, at least if it is using an "unofficial" Reddit reading app, since that's "unofficial software" we're also violating these TOS.

[–]sellymeoh god i'm on fire help -3ポイント-2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yeah, Legalese is usually EXTREMELY broad to cover the ass of the company writing it, but given that Niantic have made an official statement against tracking apps but are yet to say "Reddit is awful, never use it" I think it's a fairly reasonable line to draw.

[–]Turil 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

The point is that the TOS is insulting. And bringing that insulting stuff into this community is adding injury to insult.

Plus, and this should be super obvious to everyone, this community is NOT beholden to Niantic's TOS, since it's not part of the game itself. Talking here and playing the game are a very different thing.

[–]sellymeoh god i'm on fire help -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

...it's insulting that you're expected to play a game within the rules that its developers have set out?

[–]Berstich -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

TOS is the basics of almost any online game ever. especially one that is online and has other active people, especially, ESPECIALLY one that has direct competitive interaction with with real people.

[–]MindlessChaos 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

For what it's worth.... literally none of that would get you into legal trouble. (only slight potential for altered software, at best)

[–]sellymeoh god i'm on fire help -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Public third-party scraping tools and account selling in Ingress have both been met with legal action.

That said, from a personal standpoint (and as I've said elsewhere in the thread), legal issues are not the predominant reason for the existence of that rule.

[–]RedSeriousThe Heavy Metal Thunder 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yeah ಠ_ಠ, but that can get YOUR account banned, not a Cease and desist order.

[–]sellymeoh god i'm on fire help -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Third party scraping apps definitely can and have received C&Ds. I remember a very similar one to Pokevision existing back when missions first came out in Ingress and that was shut down because they received a C&D from Niantic.

You're correct in that the rest of the items in that list usually just result in bans, though.

[–]RedSeriousThe Heavy Metal Thunder 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Third party scraping apps definitely can and have received C&Ds.

Exactly my point: Reddit isn't a 3rd party scraping app.

Otherwise, I completely agree with you.

[–]ScienceBAE 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Right on, thanks!

[–]zackyd665 26ポイント27ポイント  (10子コメント)

I will be tagging all Mods so they get notified of this, /u/YT_Killer /u/SEO_Nuke /u/Altri_ /u/RocketJumpingOtter /u/sellyme /u/PokemonGOmods /u/Theomancer /u/Juxlos /u/cadencefi /u/Caststarman /u/Frobro_da_truff /u/fantasyMLShelper /u/FreshFishBro /u/MrUsamaKhan /u/l_u_c_a_r_i_o /u/zslayer89 /u/D0cR3d /u/bigslothonmyface /u/DMann420 /u/Crowsepth /u/Warlach /u/PokeNordz

[–]sellymeoh god i'm on fire help 21ポイント22ポイント  (8子コメント)

FYI, that doesn't work if you tag more than 10 3 accounts at once.

EDIT: minor text fixes

[–]D0cR3d 5ポイント6ポイント  (5子コメント)

Doesn't work if you tag more that 3 at once.

[–]sellymeoh god i'm on fire help 23ポイント24ポイント  (4子コメント)

My statement is technically still accurate!

[–]Nathan2055I'm going to find one of these if it takes me the rest of time 11ポイント12ポイント  (2子コメント)

Technically correct, the best kind of correct!

[–]andsoitgoes42 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

That about sums up the moderation on this sub, doesn't it?

[–]Nathan2055I'm going to find one of these if it takes me the rest of time 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

And /r/bitcoin. And all of the /r/legaladvice meta-subs (which I have been banned from now, too bad /r/legaladviceinaction is a thing). And /r/news. And /r/politics. I could probably keep going...

[–]Luke_Darksun 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Best comment on this thread so fsr

[–]zackyd665 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

D: That bullocks

[–]D0cR3d[M] 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's actually if you tag more than 3, but in the future, please don't mass tag everyone, or really tag an indivudal mod unless you need that mod specific. For anything specific, or anything official, send a message to /r/pokemongo which goes to our mod mail, lets us all see it, and whoever is available can respond. Sometimes pm's get buried, or a mod is busy and won't see it if it doesn't go to our official message box (which we do read and respond to)

[–]CyrusTheRed[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you!

[–]budgiebum 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

So permabanning users who discuss mods? Alright.

[–]ewire123 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

You can discuss. You can't advocate it. That the differences.

[–]budgiebum 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Making people aware they exist is tantamount to advocating them.

[–]itsjustacouch 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

This has been Reddit since it was bought by Snoop and gang.

[–]brucemo 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think that GPS spoofers break the game, because people who use them end up ten trainer levels higher, and they can camp gyms.

I don't think that scanners break the game but I do agree that they are cheating, in a much diminished sense. It's the difference between being able to move around Central Park at 300 mph, and knowing where the Eeevee is in the Safeway parking lot. I don't think the mods here should panic about getting shut down by Reddit because some people want to use them, because that's not going to happen.

I hope there is no impetus to use them, eventually, but Niantic brought this on themselves and I don't begrudge people wanting to avoid some frustration.

My own solution is to walk downtown to where there is an area with 4 overlapping stops lured up 24/7, but that is a luxury that is particular to where I live.

[–]sellymeoh god i'm on fire help 15ポイント16ポイント  (14子コメント)

Personal opinion here, so no modhat, take it for what you will.

I've personally seen several communities I've helped with get hit with C&Ds for promoting and advertising content that breaks a company's Terms of Use. There's probably no legal precedent for it, but it's also something that most volunteer community moderators (ourselves included) don't have the resources to fight.

That said, I believe that going with the "legal standpoint" line was a mistake, as it makes it seem like the only reason that content isn't allowed is due to legal risks. That isn't the case - we don't want that kind of content here either way, for many reasons.

Also:

*Edited- Corrected Grammar in places.

You mean "Minor text fixes", right?

[–]ChipOTron 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

I've personally seen several communities I've helped with get hit with C&Ds for promoting and advertising content that breaks a company's Terms of Use.

Other than piracy or hacking, when has that happened? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious. I've never seen a community shut down for a ToS violation unless they were involved in piracy or were hacking a competitive game and altering game/player behavior in their favor. Trackers don't fall into either of those camps, it's more like the scraping we would see in /r/DestinyTheGame and other communities to predict updates and item rotations.

[–]sellymeoh god i'm on fire help 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's usually fairly similar to this - obtaining data in some form that the company wants to keep secret (whether for security reasons, gameplay purposes, legal reasons, etc). This is usually done via scraping of some form, but is occasionally via leaks or hacks. Ingress had a very similar example back when missions first came out, where a website was indexing all missions by faking the clientblob and making API calls.

I don't think I've ever seen a community get shut down over a similar case, because most just remove the content when confronted with a C&D.

[–]andsoitgoes42 9ポイント10ポイント  (10子コメント)

That isn't the case - we don't want that kind of content here either way, for many reasons.

So you're openly admitting to happily censor people on this sub.

Think about that for a second. You don't like something, so you don't think it should exist.

That's problematic in so many more ways than a cease and desist letter.

I could understand a wide range of things. Preventing links to APK files because of their ability to be hacked. Fine. Links to a mega upload of some other app, fine. But to block all mention of "cheating" is nothing but censorship, and you should all really think that through.

[–]sellymeoh god i'm on fire help -3ポイント-2ポイント  (9子コメント)

I don't think you fully understand the concept of subreddit moderation.

If you posted a picture of your genitalia to /r/pics and the mods removed it, would you complain about censorship? Because that's moderators removing content they don't want to be shared on a community they run, which is the same thing we're doing here.

But to block all mention of "cheating"

If you'd actually bother to read the rules you'd discover that this isn't what we're doing anyway. We even explicitly mentioned discussion about cheating to be fine, as long as it's not advocating it.

[–]andsoitgoes42 3ポイント4ポイント  (8子コメント)

If you posted a picture of your genitalia to /r/pics and the mods removed it, would you complain about censorship? Because that's moderators removing content they don't want to be shared on a community they run, which is the same thing we're doing here.

It's pornography. How is that comparable?! Did you just compare people sharing cheats to people posting naked pictures?

Should I get booted out of the Konami sub by sharing the extra lives code? Would you think it batshit crazy if they blocked that?

We were presented Pokémon Go with a fully functioning tracker. Niantic was clearly unprepared for the heavy load (which I think is still absolutely moronic with all the press leading up to it but this is getting into a feedback loop) and they turned it off without telling people.

Then they turned it off more and told other sites not to pull their data. Why they left it available and open for anyone to pull who knows, but they closed that hole. Did they fix the underlying issue? Nope. Just fully shut it off.

So the game people were promised has turned into something entirely different. They've nerfed certain characters. They've actively made the game more frustrating when they rebalanced the game making Pokemon more difficult to catch and making them easier to run. They've never apologized for the server outages. They've never compensated anyone for anything they lost (Phil DeFranco made an amazing point about this, had Niantic apologized, said they were working on it, gave out some incense and lucky eggs as an apology to their users, this wouldn't even be an issue) and have kept entirely mum. They skirt questions and give half answers.

Why should we have faith in a company so uninterested in its customers?

People saw this coming with Ingress' lack of ANYTHING. And the fact that they didn't even prepare for a community manger is even more confirmation that they were entirely unprepared when we allll knew how big this was going to be. This wasn't some crazy flash like Flappy Bird or Draw Something, it's a game people have been freaking out since it was announced.

I'm sorry but I feel very little sympathy in this regard. If communication hadn't been an issue previously like in Ingress, then we could chalk this up to higher ups instituting a NDA of some sort, but it's the same as it ever was with Niantic.

If you'd actually bother to read the rules you'd discover that this isn't what we're doing anyway.

Oh it is. You can't mention other than in a general way third party sites or anything that involves cheating.

That's censorship.

[–]Berstich 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I was kinda against you at the start but as I read more your right. Ive played a bunch of high name app games. Any time the servers go down or are being shitty, they give you a sorry present and a apology. Some Mythral, some Energon, some Gold or Oil, usually whatever the cash resources is. So yeah im pissed about not playing, but hey you gave this to me, cool thanks for remembering the players.

Niantic hasn't done anything of this at all. Its almost like they forget there are other people out there playing the game.

[–]andsoitgoes42 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Niantic hasn't done anything of this at all. Its almost like they forget there are other people out there playing the game.

That's the biggest issue. Initially I was in support, until I spoke to friends who played Ingress and kept hearing over and over how typical this was of their experience with Ingress, that it's the same shit just way, way bigger now.

[–]iSpenc 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

How were these mods chosen? Is it feasible to have a some sort of community election of those who actually represent us? Is is possible to form a new subreddit to replace this one where such a rule is part of its founding. So many of us dont like rule 3. Why stick around? The mods here just appear to be the first ones to arrive and now they are ruling with an iron fist.

[–]hikaricore 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

Let's make our own subreddit, with hookers and blackjack.

[–]zslayer89 -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

You are free to make your own subreddit. The create button is on the side bar.

[–]Fenris447 11ポイント12ポイント  (17子コメント)

Basically, rule 3 is a CYA rule. CYA stands for cover your assets. And there's absolutely no shame in that. If the hammer comes down, the subreddit could take fall for it on Reddit's behalf. That's a 1 in a million chance, but why take that chance? It's easier to just not deal with it, and let everyone find that stuff somewhere else.

I'm a mod of /r/Halo, and we had a similar situation a while back with a pirated version of an alpha of a free-to-play Russian Halo game. If it's free to play, why shouldn't people be allowed to download and mod it, even though it's supposed to be restricted to a small handful of people? But isn't it stealing game assets to make a game that, ultimately, would be competing with the full version?

We banned it. Not because we wanted to make any sort of ethical stance, but because we needed to cover our butts. A decent mod recognizes they have at least a certain level of duty owed to their sub, to maintain and protect it.

[–]SgvSth(45 Caught; 46 Seen; 586 DexTotal) 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

True, but based on what /u/FreshFishBro's post, they actually are trying to take an ethical stance on this.

Granted, one does not speak for all, but I think that it hurting things.

[–]Turil 7ポイント8ポイント  (14子コメント)

And there's absolutely no shame in that.

There is much shame in censorship, and authoritarian rule...

A decent mod recognizes they have at least a certain level of duty owed to their sub, to maintain and protect it from corporate greed and censorship

FTFY

[–]__xylek__ 4ポイント5ポイント  (13子コメント)

authoritarian rule? You do realize this is an online forum and not a governing body right?

[–]andsoitgoes42 4ポイント5ポイント  (11子コメント)

It's a public online forum. But it's more than that. There are rules from admins, from mods and so on, by to have subs actively censor things like this puts everything Reddit stands for to shame.

This isn't about people getting doxxed. It's not about people being allowed to distributed hacked files that could do serious damage.

It's the mods saying "we don't like cheating, therefore we are going to censor it" and building strawman arguments around that.

It may be their right, but they need to human up and realize that they're championing censorship because they don't like something.

[–]sellymeoh god i'm on fire help -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

There are rules from admins, from mods and so on, by to have subs actively censor things like this puts everything Reddit stands for to shame.

Don't believe everything you read in /r/The_Donald, this is total bullshit. Mods have for years been complaining about receiving too little communication from admins.

[–]andsoitgoes42 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Huh? We clearly aren't talking about the same things.

As for that sub, I try not to find my viewpoints in any sub that's vehemently one way or another, especially if it involves a walking representation of Tang.

[–]__xylek__ 2ポイント3ポイント  (8子コメント)

As you said, it's their right to run their sub however they want. Why is everyone acting all oppressed and like they're owed something when they can just go make r/pokemongofree or something and run it how they want?

[–]andsoitgoes42 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

Same reason people get pissed about bullshit rules in politics, worldnews, whatever.

This is the problem, just because you're the first to create something doesn't mean you're a god and can just control the world as you see fit.

Censorship is censorship. And it's funny that it's happening only once the sub was big enough to be truly noticed by senpaii.

They're abusing their powers like all other subs like this, it's the same shit, different day and excuses painted in lipstick. "It's not censorship, we just uh don't want cheating. Wait no. Legal things. Right. And cheating. Maybe."

I've seen mods say multiple things. One just "doesn't want it", the other says "legal reasons". Legal reasons is a nice excuse because you can't call censorship if they're trying to keep in step with the law 🙄

[–]zslayer89 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Happening only once the sub got big enough to be noticed by senpaii.

Actually, if you recall the sub started out as a small body. It had laxed rules because why the hell not. It's small, not a lot of traffic. Then there was an explosion. That explosion saw an increase in users from all walks of life, and those simple rules just weren't cutting it. The rules were being looked at as the growth was happening, but with the increase in mod staff, settling on the rules and announcing them took much longer.

The sub has always had rules that condoned cheating, there just wasn't enough man power to enforce the rules.

In the end if you are advocating for other users to cheat or supplying them with methods to cheat, you will see consequences. Discussing things like why was the cheat even made, how is cheating fun etc. will not get you in trouble.

[–]andsoitgoes42 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

The sub has always had rules that condoned cheating, there just wasn't enough man power to enforce the rules.

So then why was this a response from one of your mods:

We make this rule to primarily avoid modded .APKs. These have triggered bans in Ingress. We're thinking of loosening this rule to .APKs on reliable mirrors.

Sounds like you all need to have a meeting and come up with the same story, because this is sounding a little silly.

In the end if you are advocating for other users to cheat or supplying them with methods to cheat, you will see consequences. Discussing things like why was the cheat even made, how is cheating fun etc. will not get you in trouble.

So, again, if I was to zip over to the Konami sub and make a post with the extra lives code, then that's wrong, right? You'd delete that post and issue a warning if you were a mod there?

The frustrating thing is that I can see issues with stuff like GPS spoofing, because that's entirely destroying the way a game was meant to be played. But seeing as how Niantic clearly doesn't have the ability to communicate like any normal company, third parties have developed methods of helping us use A tracker, let alone their very own which is entirely broken.

and

In the end if you are advocating for other users to cheat or supplying them with methods to cheat, you will see consequences.

Just to restate - really? That's the way you want to lay down the law?

Because to me, that just screams of power hungry mods, which you say you guys aren't. But to threaten "CONSEQUENCES is just... Do you even realize what you all sound like?

[–]zslayer89 -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm not sure which mod said what you quoted, so I can't comment on that.

I am not a konami sub mod. If there was a rule disallowing it's sharing then I would follow through with that subreddit's established consequences.

When I stated consequences, there was no threat. I didn't spell out the consequences which can be easily found on the stickied announcement page.

[–]andsoitgoes42 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That would be RocketJumpingOtter, but I've seen about 5 or so different responses as to why the rule was implemented. Legal, danger to users, ToS, etc, etc.

So how, if you can't even get on the same page with your other mods, can we trust you all with making sure your rules are appropriately handled?

I am not a konami sub mod. If there was a rule disallowing it's sharing then I would follow through with that subreddit's established consequences.

It was a facetious comment. But I guess GamePro, EGM, oh don't forget about all the other gaming sites that specifically discuss exploits/"cheats" for games - those should probably cease to exist?

AGAIN - Just because you were the first to open a sub on a property none of you have any stake in you get to define the rules in perpetuity?

When I stated consequences, there was no threat. I didn't spell out the consequences which can be easily found on the stickied announcement page.

Wait - what? That was clearly a power move, no one would mention "you will have to deal with the consequences" without doing so as a way to show your "power" - If that wasn't what you're intending, maybe you should leave communication in the hands of other mods who can be more even keel on this. You and /u/sellyme, based on many of the posts I've read, really seem to be enjoying this lashing out, the power of "Just go elsewhere if you don't like our rules!" seems to be going to your heads.

[–]Turil 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sometimes, just sometimes, when you have an open discussion and people are allowed to express their opinions and share information with someone who's doing something stupid, that person "gets it" and chooses to find a better way to do things. That's why we are saying what we're saying here about the problem.

[–]Turil 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

make r/pokemongofree or something and run it how they want?

Heh. It now exists and is set to "private". That's ironic...

[–]Turil -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

If there are people making rules and enforcing them, it's definitely a government.

[–]Markerjbrandon 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

Garbage. As is the game atm.

[–]Trypt1con 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

No, all moderators are in middle school and plan on having moderator meetings over pb&j at lunch time. They have no grasp on the real world and take refuge in their thriving online community where they get to be in charge. Just like every single other fucking subreddit that gets big. It's despicable. r/thesilphroad for anyone who doesn't want to get participate in this garbage.

Edit: fucking text fixes

[–]sellymeoh god i'm on fire help 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

r/thesilphroad for anyone who doesn't want to get participate in this garbage.

They implemented exactly the same rule today, so have fun with that.

[–]zslayer89 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That sub has very similar rules to our own.

[–]Quickbowjob -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

This anno 1939 censorship Nazism? r.i.p Freedom of speech.

[–]jdcomix 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I disagree with the mods entirely, but this isn't nazism lol

[–]ThinkBeforeYouTalk 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Holy shit can you exaggerate any harder?

[–]joevsyou -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Whoever wrote that is really stupid and should not be in charge... forsakes we have porn on reddit thats not behind a silly "are you 18+?" wall.

[–]jdcomix 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ever seen the big "mark as nsfw" symbol when you post?

[–]xmoda -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

how about they go to their own sub r/pokemongocheaters

[–]Prufrock73 -5ポイント-4ポイント  (0子コメント)

So we can't avoid advocating cheating just for the sake of it being cheating? We've got to argue about the legal merits of it? I'm not surprised yet somehow I find myself shaking my head at the same time. Fucking reddit. lol

[–]FreshFishBroSwag is life[M] -68ポイント-67ポイント  (34子コメント)

To reiterate what /u/sellyme said, we as the moderating team for /r/pokemongo don't feel that the sharing of content that is against Pokémon Go's ToS is a worth while topic that should be discussed on this sub reddit. Not only does it bring inherent security risks to our community, but we deem it cheating and against the core principles of the game and thus the core principles of the sub reddit. We do not wish to promote anything but a wholesome gaming experience free of potential malaise for the games users. We are not in any way forced or incentivized to enforce these rules by any superior/governing entity (as far was I am aware). We simply choose to not, in our opinion, to pollute the community with what we feel is less then desirable content. If you disagree and/or wish to discuss these topics amongst others of like minded thinking, then you are free to go to any of the multitude of communities that do encourage and/or allow these those types of discussions. Thank you for submitting a civil and polite inquiry, I encourage everyone to read this thread and agree or disagree with me.

[–]subtraho 19ポイント20ポイント  (4子コメント)

That's only a good plan if you want to lose all your users. They'll just go somewhere else where they can freely discuss what they want to discuss.

[–]rcmaehl#PokeDad 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

Most places don't want a community as salty as r/PokemonGo. Although I'm open to proof that there was no posts telling people to get mass refunds and give 1 star reviews over the pawprint sprite removal.

[–]ZeroSumEval -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Most people simply cannot handle the truth.

[–]beldr -4ポイント-3ポイント  (1子コメント)

And you are getting downvoted why?

[–]rcmaehl#PokeDad 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Probably because my post is pretty hypocritical as I'm being salty over people being salty.

[–]pee_in_buttBruh 24ポイント25ポイント  (7子コメント)

Why don't you let the users decide what they deem desirable content?

[–]Turil 6ポイント7ポイント  (5子コメント)

Power corrupts...

[–]ConcedeDota -4ポイント-3ポイント  (4子コメント)

Honestly mods are gods of their sub. thats how reddit is designed. First one to name the sub owns it.

There is no recourse or failsafe for that. The top mod is in charge and his word goes. Thats the end of it.

Its up to the users to switch subs by going to /r/thesilphroad or making a new sub and abandoning this one.

[–]Turil 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

There are paranoid, dangerous, emotionally/socially challenged, problem-causing gods, and there are healthy, supportive, emotionally balanced (or neutral), problem-solving gods.

We can ask for these "gods" here to either get some help in being healthier, or step down so that some healthy mods can step in to make this place a thriving one. Or, yeah, we could split up and all find other places to play.

What do you think about creating an alternative PokemonGo community that would be more wild and free?

[–]FreshFishBroSwag is life[M] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

You are at all times at total liberty to do so. With a community as big as this one we understand that we cannot conform the rules to everyones liking. Sorry you feel that we are 'paranoid, dangerous, emotionally/socially challenged, problem-causing gods', we are just trying to keep this a safe space for those who want to enjoy the game within the bounds of its rules.

[–]Turil 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

we are just trying to keep this a safe space for those who want to enjoy the game within the bounds of its rules

That's what they all say.

[–]zslayer89 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

The silph road has very similar rules to ours

[–]Nico_Oni 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Guys!! We found another one that thinks Reddit is a democracy!!

[–]SgvSth(45 Caught; 46 Seen; 586 DexTotal) 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

We simply choose to not, in our opinion, to pollute the community with what we feel is less then desirable content.

I think you should note that those are your specific words and not the overall opinion since that is a bit harsh.

[–]wayward_sun 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Especially since earlier there was the claim that there was no moral stance being taken...

[–]davidquick 15ポイント16ポイント  (5子コメント)

Tldr; the mods don't care about the community's opinion on at least this matter and they are going to do what they want. End of discussion.

[–]MassiveDamages 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

They backed up their reasoning. Just because they don't adhere to your opinion doesn't mean your opinion is correct.

[–]Turil 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Opinions can't be "correct" but they can be dangerous when in the hands of authoritarian rulers.

[–]davidquick 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

What exactly did they back up? They provided no evidence whatsoever to support their claims.

They make a vague claim to fear of Reddit admins coming down on them but provide no evidence to support that claim. Further it's inconsistent based on their argument because they provide links to silphroad among other Pokemon IV calculators that are just as bad a breach of Niantic's ToS as they had to datamine the game to get the hidden stats and whatnot. They're just harder to shut down because they don't have to make regular API calls.

[–]davidquick 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm not making a point. Just reiterating what they're saying and they're saying that they've made a determination on what counts as cheating that contradicts what a large fraction of the community thinks. This isn't how a community sub should be run. It's not how most game-fan subs are operated.

What happens when Niantic comes to the mod team and says, "we'll give you free stuff in game if you ban "anti Niantic" posts or help them cover up some other PR disaster? They have no oversight and we have no reason to believe that they have any integrity because they're taking the attitude that this is their sub and they can do what they want with it.

And this isn't hyperbole or "slippery slope" argument stuff. This has happened before in other subs and is especially pernicious in product related subs.

[–]zslayer89 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Has happened before does not mean it will.

[–]foolcom 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Keeping things civil should be the only rules. Topics of discussion, anything related to pokemongo should be allowed. That's how reddit is setup. Its a community, Moderators like you that feel one way should not have any power in deciding what is discussed. The only thing you will do is drive people to another subreddit.

[–]burquedout 10ポイント11ポイント  (3子コメント)

It's a stupid rule flat out. You moderators are censoring discussion and your excuses are flimsy it needs to be removed.

[–]beyelzu 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

Moderators censor conversation by definition. You are pissed about where the line is, not the existence of the line.

[–]burquedout 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Well they are censoring too much then.

[–]beyelzu 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Perhaps, fwiw, I'm not debating that and I don't necessarily agree with the mods position in this.

[–]jdcomix 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Today I learned that you have to moderate with an iron fist to be successful on this website. Also, this statement above me whose flair text is "swag is life". EDIT: Just realized that a guy who has only been posting for 17 days is suddenly a moderator. Seems legit.

[–]LaResistance92 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

Then what are the core principles of the game? Catching pidgeys solely?

[–]LaResistance92 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

It usually takes several months or even years for a mod team to completely lose touch with their users, lol.

[–]TurtleEddie 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

The Niantic Effect is contagious

[–]JauntyMeowstic -8ポイント-7ポイント  (2子コメント)

I don't think anyone is going to disagree about the rule and its existence. It's the way it was presented. It's not difficult to say what you just said, that you just don't think the content belongs here and it goes against the values mods want for this community. It was the whole "legal action blah blah" that is clearly transparent and inaccurate that's inciting an eye roll. The rule at its base is a good one and is absolutely the most acceptable stance on things, but it doesn't have to be beefed up with false reasoning.

[–]FreshFishBroSwag is life[M] -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I agree with you. This community belongs to everyone, not the mods, not any one member. We are just trying our best to keep it clean and safe. This community has grown by 3/4 of a million subs in the last 2 weeks. We understand that we sometimes we come across as contradictory or nonsensical, please excuse that. All that we do is in what we believe is best for the community even if that isn't always the popular opinion.

[–]JauntyMeowstic -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I have no idea why either of us are getting downvoted. If people want to talk about things against the TOS, what's stopping them from making their own sub with more lax rules that caters to what they want? If it's the kind of sub people want to be involved in then the people will come. Thanks for the response, I support the rule at its most basic level and understand that you're trying to make the community safe and clean.