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Using "neckbeard" as an insult is extremely problematic (self.Negareddit)

Vr4el が 投稿

To avoid the inevitable thread derailment that occurs when this topic gets brought up:
I am aware that there are worse insults than "neckbeard", and I am not advocating for the use of those slurs.

This comic by Ampersand summarises some of the issues with the term.

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[–]AngryDM 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm starting to use the term "unfuckable hate nerd" because it doesn't even technically shame virginity as much as describe people that, because of their alt-right bigotry and 4chan affiliations, are lonely.

[–]xandersnatch 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

S/o to Marc

[–]cavitycreep [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

"unfuckable hate nerd"

That's really what I see when people use neckbeard as an insult anyway. I'm far from alone in thinking that, either.

[–]69yoloking420 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

"Its not about a neckbeard on your face, its about the neckbeard on your soul"

[–]cavitycreep [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

I remember reading this comic a while back and my opinion on "neckbeard" as an insult is the same now as it was then.

I've never seen it used as a way to insinuate someone is autistic; what I have seen is calling someone an "autistic neckbeard". These are two separate insults, so neckbeard in itself doesn't imply that someone is autistic.

I'd also disagree that it insinuates someone is fat, ugly, or dorkish. When I've seen it used, it's been used a way to mock someone for being unfuckable: unattractive due to their personality or other controllable factors such as hygiene.

I definitely agree that it implies a derogatory connotation. What it really boils down to is, as the comic itself said, someone is repulsive. Not due to being fat or autistic, but because they're (in the words of /u/AngryDM) unfuckable hate nerds.

I still feel like, as I did when I first read this comic, that this is a case of someone attempting to co-opt the progressive movement to protect those poor, white, cis-gendered males. Because ultimately, that's who's being targeted by the word neckbeard.

WON'T ANYONE THINK OF THE MAAAAAAAAAALES????

[–]scholarthrowaway11 [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

When I've seen it used, it's been used a way to mock someone for being unfuckable: unattractive due to their personality or other controllable factors such as hygiene.

Is this really okay though? Neglect of hygeine is associated with all sorts of mental conditions, the kind of mental health conditions that make it hard to function interpersonally (such as crippling social anxiety, depression, certain personality disorders like avoidant personality disorder and schizoid personality disorder).

There are personalities that make their holders unattractive, but not necessarily bad people. Do you really want to grind someone down even if they're okay people doing the best they can? They know that they're unfuckable, or whatever, but treating them like shit is rubbing salt in their wounds, and for what, exactly?

Can't we just call assholes assholes?

[–]cavitycreep [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

Neglect of hygeine is associated with all sorts of mental conditions, the kind of mental health conditions that make it hard to function interpersonally

I get that, and I understand your argument here. I don't really know, though. Sure, poor hygiene is definitely associated with a wide range of conditions (not just mental health, either). I also get why it would be upsetting for someone with such a condition to see someone else being mocked for their poor hygiene. I'll absolutely concede this point in your favor.

There are personalities that make their holders unattractive, but not necessarily bad people.

This is also definitely true, but I'd say that in social justice circles, the insult itself implies that the target is a bad person because of their shitty personality (eg, misogynistic, racist, bigoted) and therefore unattractive.

Do you really want to grind someone down even if they're okay people doing the best they can? They know that they're unfuckable, or whatever, but treating them like shit is rubbing salt in their wounds, and for what, exactly?

I completely understand where you're coming from here and this is where you and I seem to meet. I'm not about mocking people who are having a rough go of it, but if one of those people stands up and starts making ridiculous statements about women, races, etc., then I'm not going to feel bad for rubbing salt in their wounds.

I'm also a vindictively shitty person, though. That's just me.

[–]scholarthrowaway11 [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

I'm not about mocking people who are having a rough go of it, but if one of those people stands up and starts making ridiculous statements about women, races, etc., then I'm not going to feel bad for rubbing salt in their wounds.

I get the same sadistic thrill when calling out assholes, but I started to wonder whether that sadistic kick I got was worth the collateral damage it could cause to some lurker out there, who has had a really shitty life, abusive parents, bullying, mental illness and poverty. I imagine what it must be like to have people ostensibly on your side using your inability to function and connect with the world as a point of merciless derision and mockery in a place that you are supposed to feel at ease and free from your daily burdens, even if it's only for a few hours.

I think it's also worth pointing that racial minorities are at higher risk for all sorts of psychopathology, failures of social development, and psychological disturbance than the general population. So, it's not just white dudes that are "lonely basement dwellers" or whatever. There are plenty of black and asian people who have been overwhelmed by day-in, day-out abuse and socially withdraw.

If the insults were specific to hate nerds, then I probably wouldn't care. It's just the collateral damage that vicious attitude could cause that give me serious qualms over its use.

I'm not a saint and I don't want to sound sanctimonious, and you've certainly responded thoughtfully.

[–]cavitycreep [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I know what you mean. It's selfish to throw around the insult to get that vindication when it causes collateral damage to people that you regularly stand with/for. The term carries a lot of weight with it, and people's interpretations are going to be different depending upon their past experiences with it.

I didn't mean to imply that there aren't POC who are affected in the same way by the term; mental conditions (and other traits the insult targets) obviously aren't limited to white people.

The insult itself has been/is used as a derogatory term for white men. I mean, if we just search Google Images for "neckbeard" (which isn't a great way to gauge public consensus, but you work with what you've got), the results are filled with nothing but white men. You have to search "black neckbeard" to see anyone of color in the results. Hell, there are more than a few text-only posts over on /r/justneckbeardthings that ask why there aren't any black neckbeards.

I guess the reason why I have any problem at all with accepting that it's problematic is because the complaint is coming from a cis-gendered, able-bodied, white male when that's the demographic that the insult is targeting. None of the implied connotations of the term actually affects the people who are making the complaint.

It feels like someone in a position of power saying that you can't insult them anymore because that would mean you're insulting your allies when in reality they're only saying that because they're butthurt. It feels like they're using people below them as a shield for their own egos.

I'm not very good at articulating my feelings when it comes to social justice issues, as I learned the last time this topic was brought up, but there it is.

Edit: Just to add, you didn't sound sanctimonious; I understand where you're coming from and I appreciate your candor and civility.

[–]scholarthrowaway11 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I should have been clearer. I didn't mean only the term "neckbeard", I was referring more broadly to the disdain of the socially disabled in social justice spaces. I find it odd that this seems to be a legit blind spot in SJ spaces, when otherwise, SJ spaces are reflective, nuanced and thoughtful on the whole.

I do understand what you mean about privileged people griping about it in an attempt to silence and attack people on the left, though. I know that happens a lot.

[–]cavitycreep [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Oh yeah, absolutely. It's definitely a space where our community as a whole can use some growth. I'm personally a recluse, so I have the first-hand experience to see that we have an opportunity to be more inclusive of able-bodied individuals who suffer from social disabilities.

[–]forknox 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't think default reddit would disagree with the sentiment that feminists shouldn't call men neckbeards so I don't think this is /r/Negareddit material

But I agree with this and it's important to talk about.

Although, I must say, that bit about autism is thrown in for no reason. It's a different slur. I don't think the autism part is implicit in the word Neckbeard. It just reminds me of how GamerGate was saying criticizing gamers for bad behavior means you're picking on autistic people.

Apart from that this comic is valid in it's criticisms. Both Left and Right are using this but only the Left is reconsidering and criticizing their use of it. It's pretty normal on reddit to fight for mens rights and rant about feminist neckbeards in the same breath.

[–]lacedemonian -3ポイント-2ポイント  (5子コメント)

wasn't Neckbeard coined as a term of endearment on /tg/?

[–]Spelr [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The Something Awful forums circa 2004, Lowtax I think made a thread on GBS with a bunch of pictures of guys with actual neckbeards. Like they would shave their whole face except the neck.

[–]Panigus -3ポイント-2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Aren't "nigga", "bitch", and "fag" used as terms of endearment?

[–]lacedemonian 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Well I can't speak for the latter cases.

But the first example you gave was propogated as term of endearment among the group most literally described by the term.

So I would say yes, they are similar in that way and only that way. One has horrifying historical connotations when someone who isn't a member of the group the term originated from uses it while the other doesn't.

This doesn't discredit any of OP's opinion, in fact it actually kind of supports it in a way, since that means this word's nature isn't all that unfamiliar to us. I brought it up because I thought it would be an interesting supplement of information.

[–]Panigus 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah I wasn't trying to conflate those insults with lots of historic connotation with "neckbeard", I'm just trying to say that just because it's a term of endearment doesn't make it alright for people to say.