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[meta] Downvote Button and making this subreddit better. (self.reddevils)

mchughoDe Gea が 投稿

I have noticed a lot of complaints in this subreddit about people who feel their opinions aren't heard because they go against the majority opinion. The subreddit rules states that the downvote button should be used for posts that don't contribute to discussion NOT for posts you disagree with. Due to the inevitability of people abusing the voting system I propose we should switch to an upvote only system in the comments. It works for many other subreddits I frequent and will stop controversial opinions being downvoted to oblivion.

I say this because the majority opinion on our players seems to be formed almost entirely on recent form (ie the past few games). For example when Rooney doesn't score he gets slated and anybody who says they like him gets downvoted. Conversely when he does score anyobdy who posts valid criticism of Rooney gets downvoted. I've seen this for lots of players, Mata, Herrera, Rojo, Fellaini and Schweini.

If we really want a subreddit that fosters active discussion we either need to collectively not abuse the downvote button (not very likely) or switch to an upvote system. I am pretty tired of the majority opinion changing every few days and I'm sure a lot of regular posters and lurkers will agree with me.

Just an idea, what do others think?

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[–]walterwhitec10h15n 28ポイント29ポイント  (4子コメント)

There is a sudden rise of troll accounts on this sub, the number of downvotes help identify these trolls.

[–]manunited_forever 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

We have 35 comments and counting with 0 up votes. Feels like there is a targeted down vote scheme

[–]mchughoDe Gea[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

If it's true that they can just downvote anyway if they really wanted to, wouldn't having an upvote system make it even easier to identify the trolls as they are the ones making the effort to circumvent the upvote only system?

[–]mchughoDe Gea[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ask a question, get downvoted. The /r/reddevils way.

[–]walterwhitec10h15n 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes you are right. We could try the upvote only system for a few weeks and see how it affects the general discussions on this sub.

[–]parton9020 times, 20 times, Man United 9ポイント10ポイント  (5子コメント)

This has been proposed before and I'm sure it was decided that we wouldn't do it

EDIT - sorry, meant to add before I clicked Save; it's a Reddit wide issue, not just this sub. Personally when I get downvoted I really don't care though, people get way too caught up on them, all it means is that you have a different opinion to anyone else so what's really the issue? Removing the option to downvote wouldn't foster anymore discussion imo.

[–]hoochiscrazy_Giggs 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't care about down votes either from a personal point of view, but it kills decent discussion on this sub. Just because it's a reddit-wide issue doesn't mean we cant try and resolve it

[–]mchughoDe Gea[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I wasn't aware of that, I'll have a look at the thread now.

[–]mchughoDe Gea[S] -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Removing the option to downvote wouldn't foster anymore discussion imo.

I completely disagree, some people for some reason are bothered whether they are downvoted or not. Also subconsciously humans have a tendency to go with the hivemind if it is shown that people who disagree are ostracised, regardless of their actual opinions. Psychologically, removing the downvote button would have a huge effect on the tone of discussion even if it is subconsciously.

[–]parton9020 times, 20 times, Man United 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Personally if something if getting tanned with downvotes I'm more likely to read it. Removing the button wouldn't stop the consensus from being upvoted still. I appreciate that it is annoying and do agree with you to a certain extent but I feel it's pissing in the wind a bit trying to fix it. People need to be more tolerant and be prepared to take others opinions on board more but there's no way of policing that.

[–]Creamy_Goodne55 6ポイント7ポイント  (4子コメント)

The mods wont agree to it, its been brought up about 50 times and it just gets flat out rejected by them.

Its the nature of the sub I guess, were essentially a fan site so we have the most hardcore fans (ie the people that are willing to give up their day to talk United) the problem with that is your going to get shouted down pretty quickly if you say anything negative about the club or a player.

Prime example is selling players. Nobody is willing to talk about players leaving, a comment about a player staying as a squad player sat on the bench doing nothing will be upvoted but suggesting that the player may not like that and its more likely he will be sold will be downvoted to oblivion. The original RVP sold story was just full of "its bollocks" and it happened an the same thing is happening now with the likes of Bastian and Adnan.

[–]mufcirclejerk 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

The mods wont agree to it, its been brought up about 50 times and it just gets flat out rejected by them.

They never have a particularly good reason other than "you can still downvote by pressing the keyboard shortcut".

I've said for years that downvotes should not be visible in this sub. Legitimate opinions get downvoted en masse and it's pathetic.

[–]Creamy_Goodne55 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I agree, go have a look in the Adnan thread Im getting downvoted for suggesting there is zero chance of United inserting a buyback clause in any potential deal.

[–]mufcirclejerk 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ridiculous. And the idea of us inserting a buy-back clause is hysterical. Too much Football Manager for some people.

[–]mchughoDe Gea[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well the mods need to take a hard look at the subreddit because actually discussion is damn near impossible sometimes. Surely that is what differentiates subreddits from your average internet fan forums.

[–]DJ_B0BThe Special One 5ポイント6ポイント  (5子コメント)

I hate subs that do this, it is so easy to circumvent that then you just end up with the bad people using it. It's fine at the moment, people will still read your opinion, you don't need to worry about losing imaginary internet points.

[–]mchughoDe Gea[S] -5ポイント-4ポイント  (4子コメント)

I don't care about imaginary points, I just want people to not be afraid to post their opinions.

[–]DJ_B0BThe Special One 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Then the issue isn't the downvote button being there, the issue is that people care about the points. If I say something that gets downvoted it might mean I'm actually right.

Just need an intervention for people to stop caring about karma.

[–]G_Morgan 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

TBH that isn't really the issue. By default Reddit hides posts that are downvoted.

[–]mchughoDe Gea[S] -4ポイント-3ポイント  (1子コメント)

They don't care about the points, they care about their pride. People don't like to feel like they are wrong about things or that they are not in the majority. Its the need for acceptance and affirmation that drives posting behaviour, not comment karma.

[–]ducedo 8ポイント9ポイント  (4子コメント)

I downvote shitposts such as the 200 posts on Pogba, for months, being signed in the next 48 hours. Until people step up their game and think twice before posting, then there's a great need for a downvote button due to the fact that Reddit hides downvoted posts. No other way to get rid of them. Probably an unpopular opinion but that's my view on quality over quantity.

[–]mufcirclejerk 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

probably an unpopular opinion but that's my view on quality over quantity.

It is an unpopular opinion and it could get downvoted just because it's unpopular. Your opinion adds to the discussion, and people on here downvote those they disagree with. That's the whole point.

[–]mchughoDe Gea[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Is it possible to remove downvotes in the comments and not in the posts? I do agree the shitposts need filtering, I'm more concerned about the quality of comment discussion.

[–]ducedo 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I believe something like this in the CSS would solve it:

.commentarea .down { display: none; }

It would still be possible but most people wouldn't bother.

[–]essjay2009Mourinho 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The issue is that a fair number of people are using mobile devices and this won't work for them. Subs which have attempted this still see a lot of down votes.

[–]anterax 4ポイント5ポイント  (6子コメント)

How would switching to an upvote-only system be any better? You'd still get popular opinion upvoted no matter how factually incorrect or unfounded it is.

I don't know how much the mods can do about the issue, it's up to people to be more sensible really...

[–]mchughoDe Gea[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Because often quality posts that shouldn't be downvoted get buried. An upvote system in theory should have similar weightings. Also people's motives for upvoting are often purer than their motives for downvoting.

[–]DJ_B0BThe Special One 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Threads in this subreddit don't get enough comments to get buried, imo, when there are only 10-50 comments I'll usually read them all.

I don't know about other people but I'm more likely to read a -10 post to see why it is controversial (even though most of the time it's a troll or shitpost, so it's good it'v downvoted) that one that is on 2 points and I might skim past it.

[–]anterax -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oh I agree with the posts being buried. Look at my post history :P I just think that that will cause people to upvote other posts in an effort to push the post that they don't agree with lower. I'm no expert on human psychology but with the number of mindless comments being upvoted and sensible ones being downvoted in this sub, I really don't think it'll make too much of a difference.

[–]mufcirclejerk 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

You'd still get popular opinion upvoted no matter how factually incorrect or unfounded it is.

People piling on to popular opinion is less of an issue / less demoralising / less alienating to new members than people downvoting opinions they disagree with.

[–]anterax 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I suppose so. All the more reason not to take votes too seriously, but you're right.

[–]mufcirclejerk 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't take them seriously but when you make a constructive point in a discussion

e.g.

https://www.reddit.com/r/reddevils/comments/4ecxuu/rory_smith_and_paul_hirst_tuesdays_times_sport/d1z0v1i

https://www.reddit.com/r/reddevils/comments/49t8yg/should_daley_blind_be_moved_back_to_his_natural/d0umiwo

https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/42fo1n/loan_move_agreed_for_victor_valdes_to_standard/cz9xve8

And you get massively downvoted, it removes incentives for future contributions. It basically means that the range of opinions on the sub gradually narrows towards being indistinguishable.

[–]mufctez 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I disagree.

I like the downvote button. I don't use it on opinions I don't agree, but I do use it on REPETITIVE opinions I don't agree with.

The amount of shit that is recycled on this sub is huge. The same type of posts popping up again and again.

"Am I the only one who thinks X is blah blah blah"

"What happens to Rooney if blah blah blah"

"Who will play with Pogba?"

"My tactics for this season" (same as everyone else's tactics usually)

And then there's the trolls - we have to downvote the trolls.

[–]mchughoDe Gea[S] -5ポイント-4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Have you considered that people may come to the same conclusions independently? We are essentially a sub that talks about the same ~30 people again and again, it's unsurprising that opinions are recycled. If anything removing the downvote button would lead to a wider variety of opinion.

[–]flo-joHerrera 2ポイント3ポイント  (8子コメント)

An upvote only system does not really work because all you have to do is disable the subreddit style and you can downvote.

[–]mchughoDe Gea[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (7子コメント)

Would many people really go to that effort to downvote? It seems to work on other subreddits, /r/askhistorians is a great example as well as /r/listentothis.

[–]flo-joHerrera 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

It is a two step process, unchecked the box then reload. It does not take a lot of effort. I do this to downvote trolls on subs that don't allow downvotes.

[–]mchughoDe Gea[S] -3ポイント-2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Do many people who aren't hardcore redditors know about this though?

[–]flo-joHerrera 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Not sure, but it needs to be considered. I figured it out on my own and I'm not the most intelligent person so I would assume a lot of people do.

[–]mchughoDe Gea[S] -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

For every one person who knows about this I am willing to bet there are 5 or 6 who don't, so an upvote only system would still be effective for the majority of people who don't know/don't care/can't be bothered with the workaround.

Edit: Also if everyone is gonna work around it anyway then why would it matter changing the system? Those who want to downvote can, but the majority of lurkers/Arsenal fans/people who don't care enough and just blindly downvote things won't be able to. Win win.

[–]geg0714Ronaldo 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

You can also downvote on mobile apps, without any extra effort.

[–]mchughoDe Gea[S] -5ポイント-4ポイント  (1子コメント)

It would still cut the numbers of pointless downvotes, a lot of people reddit exclusively through desktops/laptops.

[–]hoochiscrazy_Giggs 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

100% agree. This sub is awful when it comes to everybody just following the common consensus. Individual opinions usually get down voted

[–]kozirekGiggs 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Agree amount of downvotes in this sub is atrocious.

[–]manunited_forever 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

We have 30 comments and 0 up votes. Feels like there is a targeted down vote scheme

[–]mchughoDe Gea[S] -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm starting to think you may be right. Its always the same, one opinion with 40 ish votes and any that disagree hovering around 0 or the minuses, even if the points are relevant.

[–]StathamIsYourSaviorRafael 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Meh feel like downvoted comments gather more atention than your average post. Plus sometimes the downvotes are hilarious.

[–]mchughoDe Gea[S] -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I doubt that very much.

[–]Flick_My_Bean_Geoff 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

OP I was just thinking today about this sub and how its poorer than a couple years ago.

I come in and out but lately its full of memes and down votes for legitimate points.

Before there used to be analysis and good discussion. Now it's full of players Instagram posts where they are just doing everyday stuff like mourinho sitting on his couch and people trying to put clever/funny titles on posts about zlatan or stuff.

There's threads purely comprising of memes like 48 hours?/cocks out/mike smalling or whatever the latest meme is.

There's a circle jerk with the mods too defending them against any criticism. "You do a great job" etc and then there's threads with these 'inside' jokes with the mods.

I'm on mobile so can't articulate as well but overall I think the sub needs a change up. Itll be unpopular but I think a change up of mods and new approach would be better.

[–]DerpyNerdy 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is why I stop trying to start any serious discussions here cause of the reasons mentioned above. Since the beginning of this year, I'm just here for transfer news and streaming links, really. Nothing more.

[–]TanqPhil 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Simple solution: recognize that karma is meaningless. If you care about your karma, then YOU are the problem.

Sort by controversial.

[–]mchughoDe Gea[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's not a solution, I realise I can still see the downvoted posts, I am talking about incentivising balanced discussion over memes. No one gives a crap about karma, people just don't like being downvoted. Not because people care about hoarding imaginary points but because when people take the time to make a quality discussion and everyone just downvotes it they are less likely to return and make the subreddit a better place with a greater balance of opinion.

[–]manunited_forever 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Agree with down vote being misused in this sub. Please down vote this comment as well ;)

[–]lazysloth1 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

There's a lot of controversial and legitimate opinions being downvoted because they go against what everybody else is saying, I agree - but this transfer summer always seems to bring out a lot of irrelevant, trolling shitposts. I'd prefer the downvote button to be there so we can downvote the shitposts, rather than having to bypass 10 comments before coming across a legit comment.

[–]mchughoDe Gea[S] -3ポイント-2ポイント  (2子コメント)

That's what mods are for though?

[–]lazysloth1 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yeah, but they're not on all the time. I'm not really understanding why people are afraid to post in fear that they'd get downvoted, to be honest. The most you'd lose is imaginary internet points.

[–]mchughoDe Gea[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Its not fear of losing imaginary internet points, its a human fear of not being accepted by the tribe.

[–]mchughoDe Gea[S] -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I have been down voted several times in this thread for making legitimate points. This is just entirely proving my point.

[–]kapuletCantona -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Discussion? I only come here to see if Pogba has signed yet.