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Ex-husband recently starting paying me with business checks and has asked me to send him invoices for particular items/services our son's needs before he pays. (self.legaladvice)

Lethyly が 投稿

Basically it is my title. My ex-husband runs a business with about 10 employees. He use to just transfer money into my account for the purpose of child support but he has recently started issuing me checks with the business name on them. He recently said he needed me to write up an invoice and put "services" or "items" I bought for our son on it.

I told him no. He said he isn't asking me to lie. Just put that it covered reimbursement for daycare or groceries or whatever. It sounds a little bit like a lie though even though it is also the truth. He claims to need them for his records. I have not cashed the two business checks he has given me for the month because it sounds and looks weird. To be honest, I am not a 100% sure the bank transfers didn't come from his business account. I don't know the legality of this. Am I safe to deposit the checks? Do I have to send him the invoices?

Is this really shady or am I being paranoid?

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[–]swalsh411Quality Contributor 135ポイント136ポイント  (23子コメント)

It sounds like he is trying to play games with his taxes and claim this as a business expense. Is this court ordered child support?

[–]Lethyly[S] 58ポイント59ポイント  (21子コメント)

Yes, it is court ordered. That was what I was thinking and I definitely don't want to be an accomplice in this.

[–]swalsh411Quality Contributor 115ポイント116ポイント  (20子コメント)

Then he has to follow the court order. He can't place additional requirements on it. He has to pay what he has to pay. If he wants to make up receipts to monkey around with his taxes that's on him. Don't get involved. Tell him you won't do it and he still needs to pay you on time and in full.

[–]Lethyly[S] 46ポイント47ポイント  (16子コメント)

So, it is safe to decline the checks and decline to write an invoice , return them and ask him to pay me from his personal account?

Also, thank you!

[–]swalsh411Quality Contributor 162ポイント163ポイント  (4子コメント)

Unless the court order says so, you can't demand he pay you from this account or that account. It's his problem if he is cheating on taxes. You just don't want to help him by making these receipts.

[–]2001Steel 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

But looking at it from the other side the court ordered husband to pay child support, not husbands company. Those are different entities one subject to an order the other not. Wouldn't husband be in contempt of the order under such a reading?

[–]StillUnderTheStars 22ポイント23ポイント  (0子コメント)

As long as the support is paid, the court won't care how he does it. He just can't condition it on OP doing something.

[–]Naptowner 38ポイント39ポイント  (0子コメント)

No, the account from which he pays you is his problem, not yours.

[–]CatOfGrey 32ポイント33ポイント  (9子コメント)

View from my desk: this is worth a call to your attorney, but this is my estimation as to what they might say:

  1. You are getting paid. On your end, you don't care how the money is transmitted. He is probably fulfilling the court obligations by sending checks, even if he is getting the money by playing piano in a whorehouse.

  2. However, you don't have to comply with sending an invoice, or providing receipts. The court order is the invoice.

  3. This is speculation, only a guess, but it sounds like he is trying to claim child support as a business expense. This sounds to me like tax fraud, but I suppose a creative accountant might have a way of making this legitimate. But this is not your problem.

  4. On the other side, a creative attorney might suggest that this is intentionally increasing the risk that his income might be threatened. I am unaware of laws about 'intentionally sabotaging your income' to make child support noncollectable, but it's possible.

[–]qrpc 14ポイント15ポイント  (2子コメント)

Unlikely. If he wanted to intentionally sabotage his income, he could do so in a way that wasn't a felony. (e.g. mismanage the business and declare bankruptcy.) Also, sabotaging your own income may not reduce the support obligation.

Sounds like he is an idiot that thinks he is a genius and figured out a way to make child support an above-the-line deduction. The IRS has seen this before.

[–]gnopgnip 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

It depends on where you live. In many states if you voluntarily reduce your income the judge will base your obligation off of your imputed income.

[–]pokeysrevenge 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yep. In Florida had a coworker who went from making bank as an auto salesman to a call center agent. Tried multiple times to have his child support lowered but the judge said he is capable of making more than 9/hr.

[–]missy070203 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

This sounds to me like tax fraud

IANAL - I am an analyst (business banking and underwriting).

I agree that this is an attempt at tax fraud.

Writing checks out of the business and keeping invoices in an attempt to write off child support as a business expense instead of taking draw (subject to income tax), and then paying child support. By writing this off as a business expense he avoids self employed income tax and lowers the businesses gross taxable revenues.

Op would absolve herself by not issuing fraudulent invoices.

[–]TastyFace -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

If she accepts the payments, can't she then go after him personally since "he" isn't paying child support?

[–]Fuggedaboutittt 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Probably not successfully, and in any case it would be a waste of her time, energy, and money because no court would award her a double payment like that.

[–]shhh_its_me 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

If these are "medical" expenses. I know you can claim schools/classes aimed at specific disabilities not sure if you can claim "medical" food (I'm thinking gluten free for celiacs )

Still not a business expense but slight possibility its a medical expense.

[–]CatOfGrey 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

My initial thought was that if you paid for child care for all the employees of your business, then you might be able to pay for your own child care, too. But that doesn't feel quite right, either.

[–]doublenut 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

That is an interesting thought and interpretation. Hm.

[–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

[removed]

    [–]NevaMO 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I can see why your mom left him

    [–]thepatmanQuality Contributor[M] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Your post has been removed for the following reason(s):

    Bad Advice

    • This post is being removed because it is, frankly speaking, bad legal advice. Either it is inapplicable for the jurisdiction in which OP resides, or misunderstands the fundamentals of the applicable legal issues.

    If you feel this was in error, message the moderators.

    [–]anumati 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    It also sounds like maybe he's trying to set up a scenario where he claims she's using the child support for herself and his "proof" is that she won't provide receipts showing the money is spent on the child.

    [–]Brad_WesleyQuality Contributor[🍰] 38ポイント39ポイント  (7子コメント)

    EDIT: I am leaving up what I wrote below but I am now reconsidering it. If you give him those invoices he might try to issue you a 1099 at the end of the year which would make you pay taxes on it.

    Original response: He's going to try to deduct this on his taxes illegally. But, that is not your problem. You can deposit the checks, it does not matter where they come from.

    [–]swalsh411Quality Contributor 15ポイント16ポイント  (3子コメント)

    which would make you pay taxes on it.

    You can not claim a 1099 on your tax return and then when you get the love letter from the IRS dispute it.

    [–]beholdmycape 18ポイント19ポイント  (2子コメント)

    And "Dear IRS, this 1099 was issued for child support payments from my ex-husband" is sure to spark some fun letters and phone calls!

    [–]danweber 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Do you want audits? This is how we get audits.

    [–]DasHuhn 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Not always. I have a client and an exclient who play these games for the last 25 years. Pays alimony out of company, and accountant files 1099. Every year I know what's going to happen.

    [–]Lethyly[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Ah, that makes sense. I definitely want to stay out of any murky territory when it comes to taxes.

    [–]pstycr 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

    it's sort of her problem if he gets in trouble and can't pay child support any more...

    [–]jmurphy42 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

    True, but he's gonna do what he's gonna do. There's nothing she can really do to prevent it other than refusing to provide invoices and telling him it's a stupid idea.

    [–]Wadsworth_McStumpy 30ポイント31ポイント  (3子コメント)

    IANAL. From my understanding, you'd be OK accepting business checks from him. If he's playing games with his taxes, that's between him and the IRS. As far as you're concerned, he's just using a business check for convenience and paying the money back to the company account.

    If you provide him with fake invoices, though, you're on the hook for that. The only "invoice" I'd provide would just state "July 2016 child support from John Businessowner - $XXX.xx." Except in very special circumstances, you don't have to tell him what you're spending the money on, and in this case you really shouldn't. If he wants fake invoices, he can fake them himself.

    Also, if there is a legitimate reason for him to be requesting this, I'd like to hear what it is. Until then, I'm assuming some kind of tax fraud.

    [–]CatOfGrey 18ポイント19ポイント  (0子コメント)

    If he wants fake invoices, he can fake them himself.

    Quote of the thread!

    [–]radarthreat 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I wouldn't even give him that basic invoice. Don't play his stupid game.

    [–]StillUnderTheStars 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    But what if I want to win stupid prizes?

    [–]Lethyly[S] 9ポイント10ポイント  (6子コメント)

    Sorry, we are in Texas.

    [–]Cajun8 12ポイント13ポイント  (4子コメント)

    In the state of Texas, the Attorney General is the official enforcement agency for child support. Including collecting and distributing monies. I would recommend filing your support case with the Attorney General. Most support payers in TX have their monies collected through the AGs office. https://texasattorneygeneral.gov/cs/about-the-child-support-program

    Edit: link correction Also my personal opinion: this is beyond shady, he's going down an illegal route as his business should not be any factor in your support. I would not agree to any of his "requests", but you can deposit the checks. However, if he truly wanted a full accounting of how your support is spent, he can file a request with the court.

    [–]Lethyly[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

    That might actually be an easier way to go. It wasn't listed in the final version of our decree but it is probably an implied thing, maybe? I've a meeting with my lawyer in two weeks so maybe he will suggest that.

    [–]Grave_Girl 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

    No, it would be listed directly. I'm surprised it wasn't; my lawyer insisted on it. It's definitely something to bring up with your lawyer, because it completely removes interaction between the two of you in regard to child support and stops things like this in their tracks. It sounds to me as though he is also trying to control where the child support is spent.

    [–]bookstarred 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

    My child support has always been this way - 10 years . So much easier for both of us . It's deducted from ex's check and goes to state DHSH. DHDS transfers directly to my bank acct. All electronic transfers. We never have to discuss, I never have to worry about receiving . I have friends who deal with the ex either sending checks or transferring funds. Too many hassles and head games ...And it is NOT considered a garnishment. We both signed the document agreeing to transfer support payments this way.

    [–]Grave_Girl 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    You know, you just reminded me that OP can actually apply online to have payments made through the OAG without going back to court.

    [–]StillUnderTheStars 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Yeah, in TX you have the option to have CS collected through the AG. I'd say you should talk to your attorney about filing the order with the AG and having your ex pay through them.

    He might be less willing to make silly demands and play games with the AG.

    [–]beholdmycape 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I think you are fine to cash the checks as long as the money is green, but I would not construct invoices or receipts. You may need your attorney or go to the court to write him a friendly reminder letter if he refuses to pay you court ordered child support without a fraudulent receipt for his payment. If he is bold enough to fraudulently write off child support as a business express that's his business with the IRS.

    [–]Jibaro123 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

    He is trying to avoid paying income tax on the money paid to towards your child's expenses.

    It is a shady practice, and you should not be complicit as you might be guilty of aiding and abetting tax fraud.

    [–]snecseruza 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

    It should be clarified that the only way she would be complicit would be if she fakes up some sort of invoices for him.

    She can cash the checks. It's not her problem which account the money comes from.

    [–]pancakees 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    maybe, but not necessarily. If the business includes childcare benefits, then he might just be trying to verify what is deductable instead of including the whole thing

    [–]hiIamdarthnihilus 2ポイント3ポイント  (22子コメント)

    Sounds like this person wants receipts to use tax deduction, especially for child care/day care, which would make sense as to why he wants a receipt of this.

    Did the court ordered child support specify how payment needs to be made?

    [–]Lethyly[S] 5ポイント6ポイント  (14子コメント)

    You can't write child support off on your taxes though.

    It says he has to pay me directly, amount and when. Doesn't specify how.

    [–]Lethyly[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (6子コメント)

    And I actually get to deduct childcare/daycare since I pay for it. He just pays child support.

    [–]Dweali -3ポイント-2ポイント  (5子コメント)

    Your post lists childcare as one of the services he wants an invoice made for (groceries was another one) that is why the last couple of poster brought that up

    [–]Lethyly[S] 13ポイント14ポイント  (3子コメント)

    And he can't legally write that or anything off as he doesn't pay it. He pays child support only. Which I pointed out in my post and in the comments numerous times. The comment gave bad information.

    [–]Revlis-TK421 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

    he can't legally write that or anything off as he doesn't pay it.

    That doesn't stop him (or his business) from trying to. People do all manner of ill-advised illegal things every day.

    The person you originally responded to is making the point that it is possible that your ex is going to try for an itemized tax deduction for these payments. Poster did not say that this was going to ultimately work come the inevitable audit, just that this sounds like what you ex is going to try to pull.

    Specifically: He pays child support. He knows as well as you that he can't write child support off. But if you were to itemize for him, show where that money is going in an invoice - ala child care, groceries, et al, with that invoice in hand he would be able to file those expenses as such. That way he is (illegally) hiding his payments of child support behind invoiced child care. That was the poster's point.

    Ultimately, those shenanigans are not your problem. Give no receipts. If your lawyer advises, accept and cash the checks. If he files for tax deductions, then when the IRS falls on him like a ton of bricks, that's on him.

    It is possible that he wants the breakdown for other purposes. From generic record keeping just so he understands where everything is going to something more sinister, like trying to log how you are spending money to make an eventual attempt to reduce his payment amounts/increase custody rights because he'll frame his argument in a way to try and make it look like you are being irresponsible with the money.

    My money is on a thinly-veiled attempt at an end-run around tax code, but really there are several possible reasons he wants this.

    [–]Dweali 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

    THANK YOU! I'm not sure how OP is saying we're all wrong when we all agree that he won't get way with it but showing what he is trying to do

    [–]Dweali 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    They only told you what he was possibly trying to do...write off something like childcare NOTHING was said about whether it was legal or if he would get away with it so no it wasn't bad information

    [–]Naptowner 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Right, because he is trying to get her to dummy up invoices so he can claim expenses for things that he thinks will be tax-deductible.

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    Original Post:

    Author: /u/Lethyly

    Ex-husband recently starting paying me with business checks and has asked me to send him invoices for particular items/services our son's needs before he pays.

    Basically it is my title. My ex-husband runs a business with about 10 employees. He use to just transfer money into my account for the purpose of child support but he has recently started issuing me checks with the business name on them. He recently said he needed me to write up an invoice and put "services" or "items" I bought for our son on it.

    I told him no. He said he isn't asking me to lie. Just put that it covered reimbursement for daycare or groceries or whatever. It sounds a little bit like a lie though even though it is also the truth. He claims to need them for his records. I have not cashed the two business checks he has given me for the month because it sounds and looks weird. To be honest, I am not a 100% sure the bank transfers didn't come from his business account. I don't know the legality of this. Am I safe to deposit the checks? Do I have to send him the invoices?

    Is this really shady or am I being paranoid?

    [–]skarbowski -4ポイント-3ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Holy shit this is a brilliant idea. Can I legally pay my ex child support via business checks? Our kid spends 99% of the time with me and she's 12 so I'm basically paying spousal support.

    [–]PalladiuM7 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

    You'd be better off going to court to have the child support order modified, honestly. You do not want to fuck around with the IRS. Or USPIS, for that matter, but that's not important right now.