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Skyrim at it's Best (i.imgur.com)

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[–]Tony_Chu 360ポイント361ポイント  (69子コメント)

Ah procedural content. Wide as the ocean and deep as a puddle. Don't tell the guys over at the No Man's Sky sub. They get weird about it.

[–]6thReplacementMonkey 118ポイント119ポイント  (27子コメント)

Procedural storytelling still has a long way to go, but I'd argue that procedural world building has been pretty good since Rogue.

[–]Tony_Chu 14ポイント15ポイント  (23子コメント)

I feel differently. I can move through a procedural world without taking offense, for sure. But the clever layouts and well timed reveals of a world built by storytellers and artists will always be superior. Good god that sense of wonder moving through the market in Tibet in Uncharted 2. The precision of the lines of sight in the original Splinter Cell. The only people claiming that procedural content is as good are the ones selling the cheaper-to-produce and quicker-to-market procedural content.

EDIT: /u/flarn2006 is smart and pointed out that my use of "always" above is possibly wrong. I agree.

[–]MaievSekashi 16ポイント17ポイント  (8子コメント)

Try Dwarf Fortress if you want an example of a procedural storyteller that really works. That thing is insane though, given it goes to the detail of recording the quality and material of the Elf King's shoes when he's eaten by Cheeseaxe the Troll in the Spring of 216, for one of the random examples.

[–]Tony_Chu 25ポイント26ポイント  (6子コメント)

Dwarf fortress is amazing, and certainly a good example of something that torpedoes my comments above.

Exceptions to the rule are very inconvenient when I am trying to make sweeping generalizations!

[–]MoreWhiskeyPls 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Your honesty is refreshing and hilarious.

[–]foremyphone 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

There's also rimworld: the dwarf fortress for those of us who want an easy user interface. But with so much less depth...god I wish he'd just make DF easier to play.

[–]calculon000 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Aren't there graphic GUI user interfaces you can slap on it?

[–]Smauler 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's not just the GUI (or lack thereof) that is the problem with Dwarf Fortress. It's what you can or can't do, what you can store somewhere and have it be accessible, where stuff will get picked from, and random fun; there's just a whole host of stuff that makes it difficult.

I grew up on Angband and variants (ascii games), and have still to get into DF fully.

[–]dayzstu 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

There are tilesets that change the appearance, and companion apps like Dwarf Therapist that work by finding and manipulating the game's data in your RAM (similar to the way things like CheatEngine work). But your input is always done primarily with a deep maze of keyboard menus.

[–]PurpleMentat 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Don't worry. Rimworld looks like it'll stay an endless alpha, always updating, eternal Early Access title. The dev has stated it can be considered complete, has offered it for sale for two years nine months, and just put it on Steam as Early Access. There is no long term development plan. The dev has stated in a recent AMA here on Reddit that he doesn't plan more than six weeks in advance.

These are not inherently bad things. The businesses model is new and rubs me wrong, but I can't be certain that's not traditionalism talking. I point these aspects out to show similarities. It's a labor of love that will continue as long as it can pay the bills and interests the creator.

Also! If you haven't, check out the mod scene. There's a lot of extra complexity available. Workshop support is awesome.

[–]KexyKnave 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nethack is a good example as well.

[–]flarn2006 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

But the clever layouts and well timed reveals of a world built by storytellers and artists will always be superior.

Eventually it may be possible to make procedural generation algorithms that work just like storytellers and artists. Like really advanced AI.

[–]Tony_Chu 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree, and in fact think that it will be inevitable. We live in exciting times and computational capacity is only accelerating.

[–]jakub_h 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Probabilistic generative grammars FTW?

[–]Tyler11223344 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

For certain games. A procedurally generated Skyrim would probably be pretty bad. But with games like Minecraft/No Man's Sky/etc where the world is intended to be mostly 'natural', it makes sense to have procedurally generated terrain/caves/etc.

Plus, procedurally generated doesn't mean random, although there aren't any games yet(?) that use it this way, it can also be used to place/arrange pre-designed structures/plots/areas in a different configuration to provide a varied setting.

[–]Tony_Chu 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's true, and despite the way my comment reads I don't actually condemn procedural content. There are games that only exist because of it. Those too large in scope to be made manually. Those which would be too expensive to come to market because they were indie developed. Those for whom the randomization of the world is a significant part of the game play (Dwarf Fortress!!!).

It can be great as an enabler, but not a selling point. A team of creative artists could consistently produce better content for any given engine. Typically, those man hours would be prohibitive for certain games.

[–]Mohow 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

XCOM 2 does that with its levels. A bunch of pre-made chunks are randomly stitched together.

[–]Zippydaspinhead 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

And the engine was written to be pretty flexible in that respect as well. Mods have added many pre-made chunks and those chunks can be assigned to certain map types only. An example would be a city hospital, the building and the surrounding landscape of the block it sits on is the 'chunk' and it may be able to be used in only city maps.

So you can create a bunch of chunks and add them into existing map types for more variety, or you can bundle them in a new map type altogether.

XCOM 2 is not the only game to do this. I believe Space Marines and many other strategy games employ this style of level building to keep the experience fresher.

[–]CmonAsteroid 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's exactly how Diablo II worked.

[–]zorbiburst 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I like procedural content in simple games. It's fun and if you're not expecting a high quality visual story, the brainless infinite space is fun.

But in games built around the story, it's shallow and it shows.

[–]DeadKateAlley 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup has an excellent way of enjoying the best of both worlds. Levels are procedurally generated, but there are tons of premade pieces that sometimes get thrown in to add some interest and a clever touch that a computer can't usually do.

[–]theTwelfthMouse 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

No one claims that procedural content is that good, or rather if they do they are terribly wrong. But we have come quite a ways in its development, with dwarf fortress being a good example of such, with its creating a full world history and what not. And it makes for good replayability and permadeath, since you won't be slogging through the same beginning bits over and over.

Honestly they just are good at different things but maybe one day we will get even better content on the level of hand placed stuff, it's certainly heading that direction.

[–]Tony_Chu 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You are right, it gets better and better. I think the improvements will only accelerate as well.

[–]Lanlost 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, I've actually moved away from enjoying these always-getting-bigger sandbox games. I'd MUCH rather have a Morrowind or Skyrim sized world, or even smaller, that was jam packed with content. Especially considering the gameplay itself doesn't change much which was my problem with the Fallout 3+ games. I'm doing the same gameplay just in different scenery.

[–]6thReplacementMonkey 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

They serve two different purposes. In a story-driven game, the world should serve the story, and therefore a designed world or at least a carefully selected part of a procedurally generated world will work best. In a world-based game, the whole point is exploration of the unknown. There are practical limits to what can be designed into a game. The appeal of procedurally generated worlds is that they can be so huge that finding those really cool awe-inspiring parts feel so much more like a special thing. It's also partly that you know each time you play it will be different, and each person's experience will be different.

It's like comparing apples and "all life in the universe" - apples taste great and have been carefully selected to always provide a pleasant experience, but it's still cool to imagine going to another world and seeing what kinds of crazy things grow there - even if it means visiting 100 before you find any life at all.

I'm arguing that the second type of experience can be good today - I haven't seen a good procedural storytelling experience (although dwarf fortress would probably be top of the list), but as far as building the world goes, that is totally possible.

[–]Jonthrei 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Dwarf Fortress. But no one else has the balls to try something similar.

[–]sgt_cookie 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Nobody has the TIME to try anything similar.

[–]Jonthrei 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

The game has 1 developer and ~10 years of development.

That is very little in terms of man-hours for a studio.

[–]Clay_Puppington 25ポイント26ポイント  (7子コメント)

I just want to fly a spaceship into the great beyond completely alone. :(

[–]Tony_Chu 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

Me too! Maybe we can fly alone together :)

[–]Clay_Puppington 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Sounds good. Let's hook up when the games out, give each other our corresponding starting coordinates, figure out which direction we both need to fly to reach each other, and in 2 months, when we meet, our dreams can come true!

[–]stellvia2016 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You do know about No Man's Sky coming out in a few weeks, right? Or yeah, Elite.

[–]Eso 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exploration in Elite: Dangerous may tickle your fancy.

[–]chichin0 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Play Elite: Dangerous. It's got that in spades. Story? Not so much.

[–]AverageMerica 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Are you ok?

[–]DetourDunnDee 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well there's always EVE Online for that. If you want to be truly alone just play full time its test server Sisi.

[–]ButtRain 79ポイント80ポイント  (14子コメント)

The good thing about No Man's Sky is that the story and goals aren't procedural, the worlds are. Procedural storytelling still sucks but procedural content can be very good.

[–]Nickisnoble 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes, this! See minecraft etc.

[–]Tony_Chu 9ポイント10ポイント  (11子コメント)

I agree that procedural worlds can serve as places to house fun mechanics, and I've played many games with procedural content that I have enjoyed. But to hold the best procedural worlds up against the best crafted worlds and call them "very good" would be out of touch. In every case so far, the decision to include procedural content was a decision meant to reduce man hours and cost of production, or to make possible a game which would be too large in scope to produce manually, or to purposefully incorporate a wide sweeping sense of randomization in such a manner as to inform the game play mechanics.

All of these are good reasons to incorporate procedural content. But it's notably significant that it is never used in order to produce superior content. This is because it is quite incapable of doing so.

[–]rememberingthings 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Two of my favorite games are Morrowind, and Dwarf Fortress.

In the former, you have a lovingly and painstakingly crafted world that is rich with lore and stories. Full of individually crafted heroes and gods, and every quest was designed by a person rather than generated by a program.

In the latter, the entire world is generated by a program. But you get to do so much, you get to make your own history, you get to be a part of the world. You get to watch first-hand the impact your fortress has on the world.

Such strikingly different games, so uniquely deep in their own ways.

What I am saying is, I think No Man's Sky is a very different type of game from something like Skyrim. The goal of the developers and designers are radically different for each. I don't think we can fully critique a game until we've played it.

[–]Jonthrei -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

As an avid DF player - it is extremely disingenuous to compare No Man's Sky to DF.

[–]markrod420 -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

for now. As technology improves your statements will be quickly proven false. Because eventually some programmer will find a way to code the uniqueness required to generate truly amazing and unique worlds and then he will generate them 50x bigger than any person could ever create them by hand.

[–]CmonAsteroid 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

eventually some programmer will find a way

It drives me a little nuts every time some nerd says this. The set of things computers absolutely cannot do is so much larger than the set of things computers can do in principle that if you pick a problem at random the odds are far more likely there's no possible algorithm for it than that there is.

[–]godspeedmetal -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Can you qualify the term superior content? Also, is this a subjective opinion or is it an objective quality of procedural content? If it is objective - what qualities of procedural content makes it inferior to crafted content? I just want to avoid a discussion where subjective is being misconstrued for objective and vice versa.

[–]shaggywolfpack 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

IMO it comes down to aesthetics mostly, possibly even functionality. In created worlds, placement of landscape features, locations, items, etc. are done with beauty of the environment in mind. For instance, coming out of a cave nestled in a cliff face might offer a spectacular view of the landscape at a specific point in the game for dramatic effect. Also, item placement in the environment can be really clever, cool or even funny (fo4 comes to mind here). Not that procedurally generated worlds can't be cool looking (I've seen some amazing scenes in Minecraft), but when worlds are created manually, there can be a real awe-inspiring world to explore with little artistic touches that procedurally generated worlds just can't quite get. Another example, you could probably program a computer to paint a picture on its own, but it wont have nearly the visceral feel that only the human imagination can produce.

[–]wowwaithuh 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

i would guess he means the general consensus.

sure, you might like the procedural dungeons of dragon warrior monsters for gbc a lot, but most people would say that any cave in pokemon red is better designed.

[–]sfsdfd 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, Starbound used that model. Still felt very thin and artificial.

[–]StormFrog 66ポイント67ポイント  (8子コメント)

Don't tell the guys over at the No Man's Sky sub.

No, but you don't understand. This time it'll be different.

[–]Tony_Chu 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

I admire where their hearts are. I want them to be right.

[–]Facetwister 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

"Did I ever tell you the definition of insanity?"

[–]FawtyTwo 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

No no no no, this time it'll be different.

[–]rayfe 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's not different at all, is it Steve?!

[–]SkeetySpeedy -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

It will be different- because it is. The world construction is procedural. The story/narrative/adventure isn't

[–]wowwaithuh 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

dragon warrior monsters for the gbc had procedural worlds in 1998. it wasn't the best thing ever.

[–]SkeetySpeedy 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

It was also almost 20 years ago... We've made quite a few improvements on gaming since those days

[–]runtheplacered 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

The snarky comments are always going to win in /r/gaming. You're totally right though, what is procedural in NMS and Skyrim are completely different. I'm not saying NMS is going to be great, I have no idea, but the comparison is asinine.

[–]Puppysmasher 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

The circlejerk level of that sub is ridiculous, over 300 comments on the box art. Its sort of interesting to see the elvel of shit posting that sub has created due to the devs barely releasing any new info.

[–]wowwaithuh 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

my favorite part about the devs not giving out much info is that everyone over there assumes there's so much more to the game than we've been shown. they somehow scrap together offhand comments from 2014 and blow them up into giant features that the game will have that for some reason have never been officially announced.

nah. if there were more info it'd be in the marketing. there's just not much more than what they've shown other that more planets, creatures, and ships.

[–]BlazingMetalStorm 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

There's circlejerking in every sub including this one.

[–]FR3DJUNK -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Elvel-Elves

He's a fucking Thalmor agent!

[–]TechnoL33T 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Kinda like life on earth.

[–]ragamufin 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah I'm sure procedural content generation hasn't changed or improved in the intervening decade.

[–]IrrelevantLeprechaun 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Those guys are living in an enclosed circle jerk as they all assure each other that surely the game won't be a shallow mess. Surely.

[–]JoshuaKevinPerry 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Fallout 4 Fans are coming to this realization, too.