全 77 件のコメント

[–]SergeantKoopa 21ポイント22ポイント  (9子コメント)

Someone I knew had odor problems that were entirely medical in nature. He would get into the shower, scrub head to toe and use all the deodorant in the world, body sprays, etc. Literally within an hour he began smelling like a dead rodent. He'd been to a couple of doctors and they could only shrug at him. If this is indeed medical in nature your employee might need to consult with a doctor to refer him to a proper specialist for diagnosis/treatment. Regardless of if this is the case with your employee this is definitely something you'll need to consult with your lawyer on and very, very carefully review your options.

Also consider the possibility of having him work from home, if his job duties would allow for something like that.

[–]throwawaybodyodor[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (8子コメント)

The employee already saw a doctor after our first meeting. They did not find a medical explanation for this.

I would consider letting him work from home, but he'd be unable to perform a significant part of his job that way. We've already had to redistribute work normally performed by my pregnant employee (plus she'll be out for a few months when the baby comes), so we really can't afford to have another employee out of the office long-term.

[–]the_king_of_sweden 7ポイント8ポイント  (6子コメント)

Maybe he needs to see a better doctor? Perhaps you could help him find a specialist?

I obviously can't speak for him, but if it were me I would appreciate my boss helping to get it sorted, even if it is an uncomfortable situation, because if you just let him go he might end up just running into the same problem again with his next employer.

[–]throwawaybodyodor[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

I'll suggest he try a specialist - any idea what specialty would be the relevant one here?

[–]RorschachBulldogs 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

I would guess probably an endocrinologist or someone who specializes in metabolic disorders.

[–]fx6893 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

First appointment would be a dermatologist, who treats hygiene issues and skin disease. To diagnose and treat underlying conditions such as hormone imbalances and glandular disease, an endocrinologist could get referred.

[–]leaffrog 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hi there, I had a similar issue with SWIM. they had to go to several doctors before being diagnosed with a rare condition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimethylaminuria A general doctor may not be able to diagnose it because of several reasons. A specialist may help. However, even if they are diagnosed with this or something else; there may be no solution or way to fix the odor. Good luck.

[–]GreekYoghurtSothoth 74ポイント75ポイント  (6子コメント)

You are firing him because of his BO, not because of his cultural identity's food. You are not reasonably expected to know that food is the cause for that. If food is actually the cause for that is not relevant, the reason you fired him is.

[–]throwawaybodyodor[S] 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

That makes a lot of sense, thank you.

[–]Junkmans1 13ポイント14ポイント  (4子コメント)

You are firing him because of his BO, not because of his cultural identity's food.

This is not good advice in my opinion as it is inferring that the OP has no need to consult a lawyer in this situation and has no potential liability.

IANAL, but I have been a business manager and have been involved in discrimination lawsuits and in firing decisions.

The termination of any employee who is part of a "protected" group needs to be treated very carefully to avoid potential litigation legal costs and potential liability. And, for better or worse, if this is the only Indian employee in the office then there is a potential here for a discrimination case on the basis of national origin since that is a protected class under federal discrimination laws. Worst yet you have an inkling that the odor problem might be related to the employees nationality due to a diet common to that nationality.

Under this condition I would definitely consult an employment lawyer before firing the individual. A bit in lawyer's fees now to determine your potential for liability and proper documentation for the termination can save you huge amounts of money should the employee decide to file a claim.

I've learned over the years that consulting a employment lawyer is a good practice whenever firing someone in a protected class, especially when the termination is for an unusual reason.

[–]throwawaybodyodor[S] 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Fortunately, I have not indicated to him or to anyone else in the office that I suspect his diet is the problem. That's something I only mentioned here.

I will probably consult with a lawyer if the situation doesn't improve after our next meeting, to make sure I'm in the clear if I terminate him and get some suggestions about appropriate language to use.

[–]Junkmans1 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I will probably consult with a lawyer if the situation doesn't improve after our next meeting, to make sure I'm in the clear if I terminate him and get some suggestions about appropriate language to use.

I think that's a great idea.

[–]GreekYoghurtSothoth 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

You have an inkling that the odor problem might be related to the employees nationality due to a diet common to that nationality

That's why OP is not going to mention his "inkling" about the diet.

[–]Junkmans1 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's why OP is not going to mention his "inkling" about the diet.

If there is litigation then you never know what a line of questioning during a deposition will come up with if the person being deposed is truthful and will not commit perjury.

[–]TheElderGodsSmile 17ポイント18ポイント  (4子コメント)

Out of curiosity did this not come up during the interview process?

"Hi, sorry your BO is a weapons grade cocktail of chilli, coriander, cumin and garlic. If you are to be successful in this role then we'd like you to tone that down."

[–]throwawaybodyodor[S] 14ポイント15ポイント  (3子コメント)

I was on the road, so we did a Skype interview :/

[–]TheElderGodsSmile 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

Damn... Lesson learned there I suppose.

[–]throwawaybodyodor[S] 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

It worked out fine all the other times!

In the future, if I'm out of town, I'll probably have one of my staff members do a first round in the office to screen out anyone with problems that are only apparent in person.

[–]TheElderGodsSmile 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

In my experience things usually work until they don't and then you're screwed... But I'm sure you already know that.

That sounds like a good solution, anyway best of luck with it all.

[–]KingJonathan 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

I worked with a guy who had a strong body odor. He showered, he wore deodorant, he changed his clothes. He ate normal food. He smelled sharp and pungent. I also remember that all of his tools oxidized much more quickly than anyone elses. It could have something to do with the oils in his skin.

[–]bug-hunter 18ポイント19ポイント  (14子コメント)

OK, having worked with lots of Indian contractors, I can tell you this is pretty common, and it doesn't appear to correlate with hygiene. Google "cumin body odor" or "curry body odor", and you'll get a whole lot of hits on the subject.

Drinking more water dilutes sweat, so that's the first thing I'd suggest. I'd tell him to talk to his doctor, and he may specifically want to talk to an Indian-American doctor who is more likely to have experience or know who to ask.

[–]throwawaybodyodor[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (13子コメント)

The employee already saw a doctor after our first meeting. They did not find a medical explanation for this.

[–]archangel087 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

Not every doctor on the planet is going to be familiar with all the possible causes. So seeing one doctor, likely a family practitioner, May not be sufficient to say nothing medically is wrong.

[–]throwawaybodyodor[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's true. I can suggest a second opinion, but I've been reluctant to push this guy to pay for multiple visits when this might not even be a medical problem.

[–]bug-hunter 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

"medical problem" may be a misleading phrase. He eats cumin and curry, and it comes out in his sweat and is pungent. It's not a problem in that he'll ever get sick from it, it's just that it's causing a powerful smell that bothers people.

It's not uncommon for people from different cultures to literally smell people - some Indian and Pakistani people say we smell like warm milk.

It's not "I think you have a medical problem", it's "maybe someone specific can give you a helpful answer", and that someone is a doctor.

[–]bug-hunter 1ポイント2ポイント  (9子コメント)

Hence why I suggest a doctor more familiar with Indian-Americans.

[–]throwawaybodyodor[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (8子コメント)

That is a good idea. I'm just not sure how to tactfully bring that up. I think I can comfortably tell him that spicy/pungent foods might be the problem (since anyone who eats too much of them could start to stink), but I really don't want to specifically call out his national origin.

[–]ya_mashinu_ 17ポイント18ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think calling out race or national origin is a terrible idea especially if you're planning on terminating him. That is simply awful advice.

[–]bug-hunter 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

I would show him the sites that it may be due to the cumin and curry, and you want to be able to empower him to find a solution that doesn't make him give up his foods.

[–]here-we-stand 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

This seems like it could fall under "calling out race or national origin."

[–]bug-hunter -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

By that logic, calling out sickle cell anemia could as well since most sufferers are black.

And if you ate curry every day, you may well end up smelling that way too.

[–]AimForTheHead 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's just opening him up to a discrimination claim. Your sickle cell analogy doesn't work at all for this scenario, comparing a disease to someone's food and culture, come on.

[–]bug-hunter 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

If anyone could eat the same thing every day and have the same result, it's not discrimination against a protected class.

[–]here-we-stand 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

calling out sickle cell anemia could as well since most sufferers are black.

So? Maybe it could. Point is, he's at-will and if OP wants to keep the option to fire him, why give him anything that could be weaponized?

[–]bug-hunter 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because he has stated he would rather solve the problem without termination?

This is an option that may solve the underlying problem and keep a valid employee. Termination is another option.

[–]swalsh411Quality Contributor 17ポイント18ポイント  (0子コメント)

When is he showering? In the morning? Before bed doesn't cut it for some people. I know that's very personal but at this point it's appropriate to ask. Has he tried clinical strength deodorant?

[–]western_red 22ポイント23ポイント  (8子コメント)

I am not a lawyer or a doctor, but I saw a mystery diagnosis episode about a woman with bad BO. Turned out she had triethylaminuria and with a change of diet she could make her BO problems go away. It was described as a "fishy" odor.

[–]Imatotalloser 25ポイント26ポイント  (3子コメント)

I suffer from something sililar to TMAU. my odor is more akin to just sweaty rankness. I have to take steroids and be very mindful of what I eat. It seriously sucks.

[–]throwawaybodyodor[S] 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

If you're comfortable sharing, what condition causes this? It sounds closer to what is going on here than "fishy" does.

[–]smelly_times 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Is your employee on any medication? Even seemingly benign ones?

I once took a brand of paracetamol (tylenol) that completely changed my body odor for a few days. Normally I smell great but I was literally excreting the most rank, horrible smell from every pore of my body during my dosages. Once I stopped taking the pills the smell went away, but it had been so bad that I had to throw out all my sheets because the smell wouldn't wash out.

[–]throwawaybodyodor[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't know. Is that something it would be appropriate to ask about?

[–]RitaSativa 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

I met a girl recently with this - it's so unfortunate. The context was a school social event, it must be so hard to go up to a group with a friendly face, only to hear after 15 seconds "what's that smell?" Or "does someone smell fish?" I knew right away when I meet her what it was - but it didn't stop anyone else from saying it.

It could also be his teeth - I have a relative whose teeth are really bad, and it's incredibly difficult to be in a closed space with him, like a car. unfortunately he just isn't ready to have his teeth extracted (it's like most of his mouth/teeth that have rot), so it's just tolerated at the moment.

[–]throwawaybodyodor[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

The employee already saw a doctor after our first meeting. They did not find a medical explanation for this. He saw the doctor specifically to address the odor issue, so I assume triethylaminuria was considered. I wouldn't really describe the odor as fishy, but I can't think of any other smell that's similar.

[–]western_red 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

From what I know, it is very rare. Many doctors would not know about it. The woman on the show went as far as getting her sweat glands removed before a specialist figured it out.

[–]Imatotalloser 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I suffer from something sililar to TMAU. my odor is more akin to just sweaty rankness. I have to take steroids and be very mindful of what I eat. It seriously sucks.

[–]shingdao 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

IANAL but can provide some perspective on the BO. From my own personal and professional experiences working and travelling throughout Asia for the last decade, the BO issue is very real and often has nothing to do with lack of personal hygiene. It is generally well known that certain foods affect body odor. People from countries that eat a lot of meat or certain spices (cumin, curry, fenugreek, etc) can end up with body odor that smells quite different from people on a more western diet. I have had Indian colleagues tell me that I smell like a baby probably due to my consumption of more diary products like milk, cheese, yogurt, etc. It was after about 6 months or so of consuming a more local diet, that the sweet, pungent smells began to subside and I eventually no longer even noticed them. Moreover, it is less common to use deodorant in Asian countries. In fact, Asians have fewer apocrine sweat glands than westerners do and therefore do not perspire as much.

From what you have described it appears this employee is doing everything he can to correct this issue (showering, using deodorant, clean clothing, etc). The reality is that this guy does NOT smell his own BO and is oblivious to it and that may lead him to believe this is being fabricated. I believe the BO issue as you perceive it will not go away unless this person has a major change in his diet, or your entire staff, including you, switches to his diet, which may be asking too much. If that is not feasible, then firing him for BO is probably your remaining option here but I would seek the guidance of legal consul before doing so to ensure your are compliant with all labor laws.

Best of luck!

[–]Imatotalloser 8ポイント9ポイント  (8子コメント)

Just be aware that his BO cause could be medical in nature. When I was in my early 20s I had to shower at least twice a tay to not start to stink. If I was active I would usually require a shower at lunch time as well. After struggling with it for a few years. It was finally decided it had to have been a metabolic disorder of some sort caused by a genetic mutation. Im now permanantly on a regiment of steroids and I have to be extremely careful of what I eat.

Im not sure if you would be required to accommodate it, but I would politely urge him to see a doctor because it could be something similar to TMAU.

[–]throwawaybodyodor[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

The employee already saw a doctor after our first meeting. They did not find a medical explanation for this.

[–]leaffrog 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

I know I already replied to you, but doctors often shrug off or ignore these sort of things because they are not pain-causing or life-critical unless pressed by the patient or asking for a specialist. They have to really show that there is some issue here. I might also maybe consider cross posting this on some medical subreddits and maybe ask them where he could ask to be referred to that might listen to him.

[–]throwawaybodyodor[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks. One of my close friends is a doctor, I'll talk to him about it.

[–]mega_trex 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

OP said he had seen a doctor and his doctor said he is healthy

[–]RazzBeryllium 14ポイント15ポイント  (3子コメント)

Doctors can be wrong or miss a diagnosis. I think the man should follow-up with a different doctor more persistently.

[–]horsenbuggy 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Sure, but the employer can't be more knowledgeable than the doctor. If the current diagnosis is "nothing" then that's what the employer goes by and can't be held liable for medical accommodations.

[–]RazzBeryllium 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oh sure - but I guess I'd hope that the guy does this for his own sake, as it sounds like he's doing everything he can but is still suffering from embarrassing odor. Maybe the OP can encourage him to do so, even if he has to let him go.

[–]Aleshanie 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

And ask specifically for this. A doctor is not going to test for things that rarely happen the first time around.

[–]AtariBasic 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Could a legitimate claim of workplace discrimination could be made if a person is fired because of body odor caused by food that's part of their cultural identity?

Yes. The motto of this sub is that "anyone can sue anyone for anything". Getting sued is not the same as losing a suit, but it does mean that you need to invest time and money defending yourself. Many wrongful termination lawsuits get filed on the presumption that the employer will settle rather than incur the cost of fighting this in court. And keep in mind that even if you're 100% in the right and the lawsuit is entirely without merit, a lawsuit can bring collateral PR damage.

we have a real, objective, well-documented problem here.

This works very strongly in your favor. If your employee is causing disruption in your workplace, and your process has focused on that, and he ultimately gets fired for that, then that's that. His race or ethnicity is incidental. In order for a wrongful termination suit focused on discrimination to be successful in PA, he'd need to demonstrate that he was fired based on his ethnicity. In your case, you're able to demonstrate that he was fired based on his odor and the consequences that had on your workplace.

Nonetheless, you have a very valid question, and you should discuss this with an employment lawyer to assess your risk level.

EDIT: I had to work with an employee in a similar situation at two former employers. In both cases the employer did not address the issue properly. Performance suffered a marked decrease because most of us transferred out or found other employers. Please, for the sake of your other employees, make a change.

[–]AmAttorneyPleaseHire 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Pennsylvania is an at-will employment state. His presence causes a disruption with your workforce. Better persons have been terminated for less.

[–]imtheprimary 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

PA is an at will state. You can totally fire him for being stinky. If he doesn't like it, tough shit.

[–]smasterofpuppets 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

He could be showering, and doing all that you asked. However, sometimes the smell if foods gets into clothes. If the clothes are not kept in a closed closet, in a separate closed room, they can smell even though they may be clean. Or that he may just need to wash his clothes more often.

You can also ask him to wear strong perfume.

[–]throwawaybodyodor[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's a good point about the clothes.

I don't think I can take any more fragrances in the office, though. With everything my other employees are doing to offset the odor, it smells like a Bath & Body Works shop full of hot garbage.

[–]Dr_Schiff 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Firing the employee for this issue to begin with would be shitty management since you're understaffed and the employee performs well.

Firing him now after the doctor consult would be a decision that would endanger your job as this could become cultural.

[–]Bears_Rock 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I suppose it boils down to how valuable this employee is to the company. If he's very valuable, then you probably need to make WFH accommodations. If he's mediocre, then replace him with someone less disruptive.

I feel for the guy, but you aren't running a charity. You have to look out for your business, and his disruptiveness is not a protected class.

[–]throwawaybodyodor[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

He's a good employee - meets or exceeds expectations as far as performance goes - but it wouldn't be too difficult to find a replacement. We had around a dozen applicants when we last advertised the position, and several of them were qualified. It's an entry level IT and technical support job. If someone has A+/Network+ certifications or equivalent knowledge, they can probably handle it. We need someone on-site to handle hardware issues, which is why it isn't feasible to have him work from home.

[–]KiwiApple668 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Something I might be able to help with! I'm not a lawyer, and I currently live in Canada. Our labor laws are a lot stronger than yours. I had the exact same situation and this is how I handled it.

I had a great employee randomly start showing up at work smelling awful. She had worked for me for about 2 years at that point. We had just started talking about promoting her to an upcoming management roll. It was very out of left field and not normal.

I pulled her aside and very non confrontationally asked her about it. If something had changed and she was feeling okay. She seemed clueless as to what I was talking about. Briefly went over the dress code (which did state to show up to work in professional manner which I took to assume included not smelling). She was fine and off she went.

Her next shift she showed up and no change. People are talking at this point. I call her into my office and again tell her I'm worried about her. I give her a day off with pay to go get checked out by a doctor and bring me a note saying she's fit to work. She does that no problem.

1 week goes by, no change. 1st written write up for breaking the dress code. We talk in the office for a good hour. She's going through a divorce. Her husband is threatening all kinds of things with her daughter. She cries. She has a safe place to stay, running water ect. I tell her we are there for her but this needs to change. I talk to her about personal hygiene and such. One of the worst conversations I've had as a boss.

Another week goes by, no change. 2nd write up for breaking the dress code. Another melt down in the office. Next write up is termination and she gets 2 weeks to fix this problem or she's fired.

She didn't fix it. I had to fire her. It was incredibly hard. It was horrible to watch her go from we are going to promote you to fired in a few weeks time.

I ran into her and her daughter a year or so later and she still smelled. I have no idea what happened???

Hope this helps you in some way :)

[–]cacille -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I would first ask him what steps he has taken CONSISTENTLY to change his BO status. If he has done a considerable amount (Which by going to the doctor to check, counts as one), you may wish to connect him with a consultant, along with sitting him down and saying "Okay, so here's the problem. Your BO level hasn't really changed a bit from our noses standpoints, and at this point, we can fire you, even though it is not your fault. We really don't want to, that's the problem. So, I was doing some research and would like to show it to you." Show him the part about cultural food playing a part. Ask him if he'd like to do an experiment (in the interests of attempting to keeping his job). Ask him to change his diet to different foods for a month. Tell him yeah, it might be difficult to do and to stomach, and there is no guarantee that it will work, but hey - if it does, he gets to keep his job! It may take up to a month to smell any noticeable benefit.

Also, ask him to attend a meeting with a specialist to see if they can't do some study or tests to see what is going on. They may be able to give better advice about going on a "change food diet".

[–]Computermaster -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

I suspect his diet is contributing to the problem. He often brings very strong smelling Indian food in from home,

$20 says this is it.

A few years back I was on travel and got on a really bad Buffalo Wild Wings kick. I had garlic Parmesan boneless wings from them every night for two weeks. I only stopped because I began to smell myself smelling like the wings.

I don't even want to imagine what two straight weeks of nothing but Indian food would do to me.

[–]UndercoverWindmillQuality Contributor 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't even want to imagine what two straight weeks of nothing but Indian food would do to me.

You may be surprised to find that there's an entire country of people who do that every day with no problems. But they just call it food.