Why didn't the US back Nazi Germany in WW2?What conflict did these two nations actually have?
UNRESTRICTEDSUBMARINEWARFARE
Germany declared war on us the day of (or day after) Pearl Harbor, after we declared war on Japan.That and the Brits, basically. We might've left Stalin out in the cold if we could.
>Why were the Nazis so bad guuuuize
>>30790246Bankshttps://youtube.com/watch?v=BWViBydOWJo
>>30790268after asking many times for peace.we are the war mongers anon
something about short noses or long noses
>>30790246The American elite were uncomfortable with anti-semetism. Also, a European empire would put a crimp into American hegemony.
>>30790286>ask a legitimate question>"YOU'RE A JEW OR YOU HATE THEM OR SOMETHING!"
Treaties of mutual aggression, really the same reason WWI got as bad as it did. Japan was allied with Germany, the US had standing alliances with European powers. The US would have entered the war sooner if it weren't in the middle of its worst depression ever and Populist xenophobia and isolationism was the dominant attitude of the public and its' representatives.
>>30790290This
A bunch of jews came into the US far before the start of WW2. The jewish escape route was either the US or Israel. Do note that anti semitism was very normal in those days. Canada's PM at the time, Mackenzie King, did not like jews and tried to prevent jews from entering Canada. The jews funnelled into the US and into US politics. The decision to attack Nazi Germany was obvious.
Oh i don't know OP, maybe (but JUST maybe) it was the fact that one of them was controlled by jews while the other wasn'tIt's a real shame Lindbergh's peace movement never took off, they even abducted his family because of it
>>30790246The guy who said banks has a point, the Brits and French owed enormous amounts of money to the US, which, wouldve been lost had they been conquered. Also, its important to note that the US establishment in large wanted to go to war but was hindered by an isolationist population.
>>30790246>What conflict did these two nations actually have?The first world war I guess. Also for a non /pol/ reason, we like the French and English a lot more than we like the Germans simply because of a long shared history. Not to mention Nazi Germany was an aggressor nation and allied with the Japanese who bombed us.
>>30790246we were buddy buddy with the brits.if the brits had accepted a treaty and/or supported the finns and left stalin out in the cold or declared war on him, we might've been in a different situation.also, their subs were attacking our boats sending shit to England even though we weren't officially at war.furthermore, if FDR wasn't president, we might've stayed out or backed someone else.and finally, the Nazis allied with japan, who attacked us cause they threw an autistic fit when we said we wouldn't give them any more oil or rubber unless they stopped raping china to death. if Germany hadn't declared war or the japs didn't attack, things might have been different.
>>30790584>they even abducted his family because of itno, just his son
>>30790290
FDR had a raging hate boner for Hitler. Plenty of other reasons, but I don't believe this was mentioned yet.
>>30790246The same political reasons the US (and the UK, for that matter) didn't back the Central Powers in WWI: maintain the status quo of great powers, and check territorial aggression.Nazi racial policies were secondary.
>>30790584>controlled by JewsWho wielded so much control they weren't even able to persuade the government to bomb the rail networks leading to the death camps, or the camps themselves.Oh wait, the holocaust is a myth, but it SHOULD have happened, right?
>>30790744When your leaders keep getting put into work camps, it's hard to organize resistance.But that's what you get when you actively and openly oppose the political and military interests of the state during/leading up to wartime.
>>30790246Literally jews. Sounds trivial but how it is.
>>30790246Nazi Germany was against everything that the US stood for and stand for today: liberal market economy, individualism, freedom of choice, stuff like that.
GET YOUR CARDS OUT
>>30790678Wasn't the Lindberg baby killed by wild animals or something?
>>30790584>IT WAS TEH JOOOOOOSgo back to your containment board
>>30791740What happens to your thought process when you actually realize that it was the Jews?Is it similar to mine when i deny to myself that i stuck a finger up my ass one time just to see how it feels?Or is it just your job to deny it? If it is, here, have a (you) from me. Take it. Here is a fucking penny. Buy bread with it.
>>30790246The Jews /thread
>>30790301> declares war on the US first> Germany din du nuffin
>>30790301What about Germany's war mongering?>inb4 muh lebensraum
>>30790323who are you quoting?
>>30790246The better question is why the UK didn't join forces with Germany. The UK had several fascist MP's and the people had much of the same anti-semitic sentiment - Churchill included. The US would either not get involved or join the allies, there wasn't even a remote possibility of the US fighting against any of the triple entente in the second world war.
>>30791967Because the UK had nothing to gain from joining forces with Germany and plenty to lose.
>>30791967>Why didn't these countries that already had everything not ally with a poor upstart that wanted to take their stuff from them????I don't know but you should take these questions to /his/.
>>30790301>after asking many times for peace.Yes, the Allies are the true warmongers for not giving Hitler everything he wanted and then some and letting him off afterwards.
>>30791774You can keep the penny, maybe if you dig around in your ass some more you can pull some more bullshit out of it.
>>30792024>germany is a poor upstart You barely know anything about European history do you? The wars were about suppressing a great power, not preventing an upstart. LRN 2 Prussia. LRN 2 Holy Roman Empire.
>>30792034>I didn't know that 'germany' existed prior to 1930reclaiming land you lost in the last war is just about the most common reason to war ever.
>>30790246They declared war on us, faggot.
>>30792093>war you lost in a war of aggression>rightfully yoursWEW LAD
>>30792093>reclaiming land you lost in the last war is just about the most common reason to war ever.Like Alsace-Lorraine, the many partitions of Poland, or the Brest-Litovsk treaty? But fine, let's say Germany reasons were legitimate. How does that make the other side warmongers for fighting back?
>>30792054i dont know what the fuck youre talking about either
>>30791967Because the Brits were legally obliged to defend Poland from Germany and Germany kind of shat that up.
>>30792183It looks like I'm a moran.I thought the opposite point was trying to be made, that germany was war mongering.
>>30792210They were though.
They declared war on us.We didn't have any problems with them beforehand
>>30792207Were they also legally obliged to defend Poland from Russia?
>>30792220I don't think you can be a war monger if you have casus belli
>>30792210>It looks like I'm a moran.>I thought the opposite point was trying to be made, that germany was war mongering.Maybe you are, because that is the point being made. They were the ones who escalated or outright initiated hostilities in both wars.
>>30790246>Why didn't the US back Nazi Germany in WW2?They did, though. The US sold wares to (and interfered with) both sides.If japan hadn't attacked the US, the US probably would have never entered the war.
We both know why goy.
Germany tried to genocide the US elite
>>30792227No, the treaty specifically stipulated Germany (France was also in on this obligation).Poland kind of got fucked in the ass on that one. Well, double-teamed actually.>>30792235>build nation on ass backwards socialist economy>have to wage war and pillage other nations to sustain yourselfAdolf was the King Nigger of Europe.
>>30791983>Because the UK had nothing to gain from joining forces with GermanyNot even the keeping colonies or ending the spread of gommunism? Seems like the UK lost more than they gained from wwii tbqf
>>30792291>oh shit we gotta get in with these crazy socialists and help them proliferate to stop these crazy socialists we don't want to proliferate
>>30792327I'm hardly a 'we joined the wrong side' naziboo but.... that's kind of what happened anyway.
>>30792327So exactly like they chose to do when allying with the soviet union? Your greentext is very idiot because it works both ways! haha!
>>30791967>The better question is why the US didn't join forces with Germany. The US had several fascist congressmen and the people had much of the same anti-semitic sentiment
>>30792396>>30791967lasting great war sentiments would be my guess
>>30790246>Why didn't the US back Nazi Germany in WW2?because they declared war on us retard
>>30792557For fuck's sake, op clearly meant before that happened.
>>30792587Because the US was in a depression and wars cost fucking money.
>>30792353>>30792352I'm not saying it was the best outcome, the Brits didn't want to side with the Soviets that much, but with the treaty with Poland regarding Germany, that more or less tipped that scale.But it was basically between a rock and a hard place.
Because the US was allies with Britain and France. The side the US would take when it eventually entered the war had long been decided prior to before it happened.This is not a hard question. The real question is why the hell Stalin trusted Hitler. Or why Hitler decided declaring war on the US was a good idea.
>>30792246>The US sold wares to (and interfered with) both sides.US didn't sell "wares" to both sides. US exports to Germany pretty much stopped even before WW2 began because Germany had run out of cash.What you might be thinking of is the fact that many US firms had stakes in German business they did not liquidate when the war began, but that's because they were not allowed to by German law.
>>30792327>The Nazis were socialistI would post the exact image you did, but something tells me you would get the irony.
>>30790268This
>>30790268>We might've left Stalin out in the cold if we could.Lendlease to the Soviets began months before Pearl Harbor. Why can't people without even a wikipedia article under their belt just keep their traps shut?
>>30790266Ergh, baity bateatros
>>30792649>Or why Hitler decided declaring war on the US was a good idea.Hitler was strategically impaired.
>>30790307Inside!!!!!
>>30792653>literally "National Socialism">muh socialism is different though stupid jew
>>30790652Jibbar jabber Jibbar jammer ooooookkkkkkkkkjj
>>30792649I think one of the best questions is; Why there was no real cooperation between the axis powers?
>>30792819Because they had radically different goals.
>>30792748>Not knowing the Nazis used the term socialist to attract voters due to the increasing support for socialism>Not knowing the Nazis were anti socialist>Not knowing the Nazis had virtually nothing in common with socialism>Not knowing the Nazis barely justified its usage by explaining it meant social programs for German Aryans>Thinking because it has socialist in the name means it's actually socialistI beat you think North Korea is actually a democratic republic.
>>30792834Whatever makes you feel better about the retarded economy and social programs.
>What conflict did these two nations actually have?You mean apart from being ideologically opposed? Well, they invaded the close American ally that is France, at a time when people still remembered the Statue of Liberty as gold coloured.
>>30792819>NazisHad shitty goals and management, assuming they could have somehow fought off the Allies and survived and established themselves as an empire, they would not have been able to sustain themselves into the 1960's, their economic model was fucking backwards and they needed to go to war to take other countries' resources to sustain, they would either keep fighting and get grounded to meat (as it happened) or they'd reach some kind of stalemate or peace agreement, holding some countries, and then eventually implode because they'd go back to Weimar Republic tier economy in a few years.>ItalyWell they were fucking retarded even in the German's opinions, mind you, occupied France slapped Italy's shit, pic related gives you an idea on how things were typically done in Fascist Italy>JapanToo consumed by MUH HONOR and raping China to care
>>30792878>Whatever makes you feel better about the retarded economy and social programsI'm Jewish
>>30792941>I'm JewishSTOP BEING SOCIALIST!Do commie faggots never learn?
>>30792941You should have a better understanding of money then.
>>30792735>Hitler was strategically impaired.His generals were honestly not much better.
>>30792969Oh wait, you meant the Nazi's 'socialist' economy and policies? They weren't even though. They strongly supported private ownership, and the only way their policies resembled anything socialist is strong support for social policies that were German Aryan only.>STOP BEING SOCIALIST!Come back when you're not upset and actually know what you're talking about.>>30792991I don't support socialism mate, I came from the USSR and fuck that shit.
>>30793008Rommel was pretty decent.>>30793013Which socialist hellhole are you from?
>>30791967England has always done it's best when Europe is divided. >Charles V>Napoleon>Kaiser Wilhelm>Adolf HitlerThe eternal anglo has been blocking the consolidation of Europe for centuries. They would otherwise be at the mercy at what ever Roman Empire 2.0 sprang up, or at least could not profit at a unified closed market.
>>30793038>Which socialist hellhole are you from?Russia itself, so I didn't even get the worst of it. No grey pasta for me!
>>30792735We would have declared war on Germany even if he didn't declare war on us, we already made promises to Britain
>>30790246I dunno. Probably has something to do with supporting nations that are also republics and democracies. Don't worry, I'm site Trump will say something soon about how we should've supported the Nazis or given all of Europe to the Soviets.
>>30793071Shit, Russia did at least get a few upswings.Ukraine REALLY got shat on by communism, dat Holodomor tho
>>30792735>Hitler was strategically impaired." Adolf Hitler himself conceived a plan to take over the fort by getting men onto it by using gliders to overcome the problem of concentrating an airdrop on a small target, and utilizing the new top secret shaped charge (also called "hollow charge") bombs to penetrate the cupolas."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Eben-Emael>inb4 Hitler didn't come up with anything and only claimed credit for it, but Stalin was a strategic genius)))Hitler was the main proponent of the blitzkreig doctrine in France, and his "retarded" decision of diverting solders from Moscow was to counter the 600,000 or so soviets that were ready to cut off the German thrust. The only thing Hitler did in Russia was force his generals to actually stick to the original plan for the invasion rather than try some retarded plan of charging Moscow and letting themselves get surrounded. He also postponed the invasion of Poland three times asking for time to negotiate and only started the invasion after he realized Poland was adamant in their refusal to even recognize German messages.
>>30793199>Poland was adamant in their refusal to even recognize German messages.What would you say of Mexico demanded the return of the American West and Southwest?Would you advocate that we give it back?
>>30793256>refuse to even allow a population the right to self-determinationIf Mexico called for a plebiscite to decide the issue then It'd be hard to articulate a valid reason not to other than "go fuck yourself" Which is exactly what Poland did and they ultimately reaped what they sowed. You don't get to deny people self-determination and claim the moral high ground.
>>30793055>blocking the consolidation of EuropeYou should thank them.
>>30792246Yea no.Germany was completely out of foreign currency to buy good from the US even before the war. Even if US merchants wanted to sell to Germany, Germany had no money to pay for things.
>>30793199Hey remember that time when Hitler kept ignoring suggestions to focus more on aircraft and fuel production because they were running extremely short on both by mid1944 due to sustained allied bombing on synthetic fuel and transportation targets, as well as the near decimation of the luftwaffe due to the US winning the war of attrition, so he could focus on useless V-Weapons that weren't strategically or tactically important at all and just sucked up resources? Yeah that was pretty funny
>>30790584I'm sure the fact that they declared war on us one day after Pearl Harbor had nothing to do with it, did it retard?
>>30793304No, we would basically tell Mexico to go fuck themselves. You can't just steal parts of countries.
>>30793396Germany was beyond fucked at that point. Hitlers only options were to drag the war out as long as possible or take chances with the "wunderwaffe." Im sure that if you were the fuhrer people would mocking you today about your decisions to focus on the relatively ineffectual German air force rather than doubling down on rocket technology to deny the allies the ability to destroy your long-range capabilities. Its so fucking easy to look back with the benefits of all the nations documentation and wartime knowledge and say "that fool, if he had just followed my own little pet military theory he would have been the next Alexander"
>>30790246I'm assuming OP has no brain cells left in order to unironically ask a question so fucking moronic.
>>30793452Which is exactly what Poland did to Germany in the Danzig. The majority German population was forced under a nation that was undergoing its own nationalistic fervor, removing non-ethnic Polish professors from colleges, and being told to boycott German stores. Hitler asked for a diplomatic approach to solving the issue and Poles literally refused to even receive German envoys. All diplomatic messages had to go through the British embassy to reach Poland. Further emboldened by England and France's support, Poland was dead-set on being as belligerently undiplomatic as possible. WW2 is best seen as another attempt by the Anglo-French alliance to check the new-revitalized strength of the Germans. Essentially a continuation of the WW1-era containment strategy that was almost ruined by Stalin's obliviousness to Hitler's ambitions in the East.
>>30793486Or he could have not been retarded and sued for peace, playing England and the US off the USSR. Giving the west favorable terms would have broken the alliance and might have started world war 3 right there.
>>30793199>Hitler is gliderfagMystery solved
>>30793396>hey remember things that never happened?
>>30793540>Poland was dead-set on being as belligerently undiplomatic as possibleWhich of course is why an invasion and genocide is in order.
>>30793452>You can't just steal parts of countries.The vast majority of human history says otherwise
>>30793611There was also a time where people raped and murdered left and right as it was the natural order of things but that doesn't make it excusable.
>>30793561Seeing as how Hitler's numerous peace offers from 1939 to 1941 were refused or ignored, Hess was imprisoned without being allowed to present his, and Churchill repeatedly stated that he would not be willing to offer peace to Germany because, "they might accept it" I dont see how exactly he was to obtain peace? http://ww2today.com/hitler-makes-a-peace-offer-to-britainhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2433733/How-Nazis-offered-peace-treaty-World-War-II-meant-selling-Russians.html
>>30791967>The better question is why the UK didn't join forces with GermanyThe Eternal Anglo thirsted for Aryan blood.
>>30793671Yes, they should have taken a peace offer from Hitler. Ask Stalin how well that worked out. By 1940 it was too late. Poland (and other nations) had been invaded, invalidating whatever agreements Hitler and Chamberlain agreed on. Britain had no reason to believe in, or accept, such offers and even if they did they had no need to. They were going to win the war and have peace on the terms they wanted as the victors.
>>30793609Yes, if the people you and your entire party's platform is dedicated to protecting are seeing, "At the end of march 1939 in polish newspapers in West Prussia-Pomerania there is a call for a boycott of the Germans. In 13 points the Polish population is asked to boycott German shops, market stalls, and restaurants, to remove German inscriptions and advertisements, to handle German business and official mail no more, to hire German youths no more, to prohibit the acquisition of land by Germans, and to consign superfluous German [Protestant] churches to the Roman Catholic Church"Politisches Archiv des Auswartigen Amts, R 104, Blatter 70ffThen you are understandably motivated to take actions to protect these people. Actions that you were forced to due to Poland's consistent refusal to even acknowledge your correspondences and the "Allies" rallying to guarantee Poland and further embolden them against responding to you. And please leave genocide out of this, we are discussing the invasion of Poland and not the further actions that didn't even start until the 1940s.
Maybe because the Nazi's were trying to kill all the long noses and the US didn't want to lose half it's population if it sided with them
>>30793798>Then you are understandably motivated to take actions to protect these peopleWith systematic murder? Why not take these Germans in as refugees instead?
>>30790246>Why didn't the US back Nazi Germany in WW2?We were better friends with Britain>What conflict did these two nations actually have?None. Until Hitler declared war on the US.
>>30793831Don't bother. These people believe things like newspaper headlines calling for Jewish boycotts of German goods are the same as invasions and acts of war.Axis apologists use the same excuse for saying Japan was justified for attacking the United States over the oil embargo.
>>30793629>but that doesn't make it excusable.You said 'can't' as in 'unable to' or 'unable to get away with', not 'excusable'. And when was the last time you complained about the Romans or Mongols taking half the known world, or the British, French, Germans, Imperial Russians, Soviet Russians, Dutch, Americans, Mexicans, Australians, Polish, Lithuanians, Romanians, the thousands of ancient kingdoms and city-states, and every single other country in existence taking territory from someone else? You haven't, because no one does, especially not when it doesn't affect you or didn't happen in your lifetime.>oh those poor Saxons, how dare the [Insert one of a dozen different groups] take their land>oh those poor Xiongnu people, how dare the Han take their land>oh those poor [Insert anyone], how dare the [Insert anyone else] take their land
>>30793767They didn't take peace because they were certain they could easily win a war. The balance of power at the outbreak of hostilities between Germany and France-England and their allies was 1 to ~2.5. England's refusal to accept peace to the same reason for everyone's refusal to accept peace. They didn't want a reverse-treaty of Versailles to be levied upon them after France had been humiliated into signing its Capitulation in the same train car that Germany had signed its 20 years prior.
>>30793540>hey, Czecheslovakia, Sudetenland is German, gubsmedat and peace>okay.. for peace>hey, Czecheslovakia, you aren't a real country anyway, stop existing and peace>okay... for peace>hey, Yugoslavia, northern of your country, gibsmedat and peace>okay... for peace>hey, Yugoslavia, you aren't a country anyway, stop existing and peace>what, huh?>too late I stole you!>hey, Poland, Danzig is German, gubsmedat and peace>hahaha, tricky Germans, you already do this with Czecheslovakia and Yugoslavia, but Polen not so silly!Germans and Soviets partition Poland>well, Polen wasn't a real country anywayYeah, I'm sure they would've stopped after Danzig. Nazism requires the subjugation of others and conflict for survival. If they ever had true peace, they would've collapsed.
>>30793676The Eternal Anglo (I never got why Mosley became the posterboy and not Churchill) literally did nothing wrong.
>>30793831>Why not take these Germans in as refugees instead?They did, "The German Reich government in the summer of 1939 must set up reception camps to get control over the stream of German refugees from Poland. (the number of refugees by the middle of August amounts to 78,000 in the territory of the German Reich, and another 18,000 who take refuge in the Danzig)Rasmus, Hugo Pommerellen Westpreussen 1919-1939But there was still widespread anti-German sentiment that was breaking out in Poland to the point of violence. The Danzig was beginning to be seen as an area that was no longer safe and the German government wasn't going to allow tens of thousands of Ethnic Germans to be harmed.
>>30793855I'm here to argue in good faith and citing sources from contemporary historical documents and archives. What are you doing other than spouting rhetoric?
>>30793986Sounds like some of those bogus claims like Polish AA shot on civilian German planes or a Polish tank division is closing in on Danzig. Also the Poles knew an attack was coming because the German offensive was postponed several days before september 1st but one single unit attacked the Polish positions and got repelled.
>>30793922>Nazism requires the subjugation of others and conflict for survival.Citation?Hitler had, before 1939, never once stated any particular ambitions with specific regards to Poland. Even Mein Kampf only discusses the failure of the Prussians and Austrians to "germanize" the polish people. Even after the 1933 attempt by Poland to coerce France into a war of aggression against Germany (1), Hitler's response is to conclude the German-Polish Non-Aggression pact of 1934.1 Roos, Hans Die "Praventivkriegsplane " Pilsudskis von 1933 in Vierteljahrshefte fur Zeitgeshichte, 3/1955, pg 344-363
>>30793671Yeah, no.Germany wasn't going to get out of it with a white peace. A surrender to the allies that left Russia in the cold would have been impossible to refuse and shattered the allies.
>>30794114I don't know what to tell you, especially seeing as how Germany's peace offers occurred before Operation Barbarossa even began.>>30794040This isn't the Gleiwitz incident, multiple newspapers in Germany, Ukraine, the Danzig, and Poland were reporting attacks on Ethnic Germans. The Poles also increased its military presence in the Danzig from the League of Nations permitted 88 to nearly 240 and customs officials from 6 to 110. (1)1 Documents British Foreign Policy, Third Series, Volume VI, Document 6
>>30794088>Citation?Because their economy didn't sustain itself and they literally had to plunder or deflate.
>>30794191Yes, there were lynchmobs but almost 80.000 people fleeing from Poland sounds too much. Also the German army was advancing way too fast for so many people to flee from fights or angry Poles.
>>30794216Citation for that? The Wehrmacht was only receiving 1/3 of Germany's GDP at the outbreak of the war and there were still objections being raised about that being inadequate. (hence the anonymous, "we will have to fight the war with refrigerators" quote)>>30794218If you wish to provide a citation about the numbers being incorrect i would love to see it. you will notice that these numbers are from August of 1939, a month before the outbreak of hostilities.
>>30794216>>30794269http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/nazi-germany/nazi-germany-military-expenditure/the UK almost equaled the Germans in military expenditure in 1939 funnily enough (23% for Germany vs the UK 22% )
>>30794323>>30794269The UK wasn't anywhere close to exhausting it's lines of credit unlike Germany. To get capital, Germany pulled all sorts of shit, up to and including issuing bogus bond that destroyed private savings of it's citizens without them knowing.Germany had been running a heavy deficit since 1934, and had used up every bit of capital they had. If they didn't go to war, they would run out of credit, and you would either need to drastically cut spending and basically scrap the army, or have hyperinflation.
>>30794404>or have hyperinflationWeimar Republic 2: Electric Boogaloo
>>30794404A deficit like the United States? If you will notice, in >>30793897the balance of power between the Germans and the allies was 1 to ~2.5 in 1939 which had grown from 1 to 97 disparity that was leveraged upon the Germans in the Treaty of Versailles. Hitlers rearmament was a defensive measure, the main goal of the Reich at the time was to win over the trust of the German people through the "volk" and Strength through joy programs. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=191481Here is an interesting comparison of the PPP of several countries in the late 1930s. You'll notice that Germany edges out the UK and is only beaten by the Unites States. The suggestion of hyperinflation or any other sort of "conquest economy" is only ex-post-facto justifications levied upon Germany to further enforce the image of their "aggressor" statues in WW2.
>>30794439The difference is that the Weimar republic era hyperinflation is intentional, there was nothing fundamentally wrong with the economy, but the Reichsbank caused hyperinflation on purpose to shirk Versailles payments.The potential Nazi hyperinflation would be a much more serious problem, it would mean literally nobody in Germany would have any credit, and can not be fixed without forceful redistribution of property.
>>30794472> A deficit like the United States? If you will notice, in Completely different animal.Today's US can somewhat safely run with a deficit because there is a constant demand for dollars that keeps the value of the dollar high. If you want to buy anything from the US, or if you want to buy oil from OPEC, you have to pay for it with US Dollars. The supply of dollars is carefully regulated to maintain it's value. The extremely high demand for dollars is what allows the US to pay it's debts by essentially printing money.Nazi Germany can't do that, there's no external demand for Reichsmarks, since nobody needed to buy stuff the Germans made, and even if they did, the Germans were saving it for the war they were planning to fight. The value of the Reichsmark laid entirely in the savings of the German people, and if you couldn't get what you want from them, the Reichsmark is worth less than the paper it's printed on. Sweden famously took payments for it's iron ore in either gold, Swiss franks, or US Dollars, because the only thing the Reichsmark was good for in Sweden is toilet paper.By 1939, the German people had no savings left, the Government had covertly taken it all by issuing junk bonds they had no ability to repay unless they seized foreign assets to back up the value of the Reichsmark.
>>30794472>http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=191481Even if you just ignored the first two replies picking holes in it, what exactly is this supposed to prove? It certainly doesn't disprove the assertion of >The suggestion of hyperinflation or any other sort of "conquest economy" is only ex-post-facto justifications levied upon Germany to further enforce the image of their "aggressor" statues in WW2.
>>30790584you're on the weapons board so I assume you have at least a gun of SOME kind. Follow your leader, my man
>>30794472Forgot to include citations on military disparities,The Treaty of Versailles limited Germany to an army of 100,000 men in 10 Divisions.Comparatively, upon Hitler's ascension to power in 1933 we find,France with 650,000 menBelgium with 66,000Poland with 298,000the Czechs with 140,000Lithuania with 32,000and the USSR with 885,000(Germany maintained no reserves due to restrictions on conscription)in 1939, Germany maintains 102 divisions France 100Britain 47Poland 20USSR 220v. ortzen pg. 248, milGesichte UdSSR Band 1Maser, Werner Der Wortbruch, Hitler, Stalin, und der Zweite Weltkrieg, Olzog Verlag, Munchen, 1994
>>30794583>>30794612The economics of the Nazi Germany is one subject I'm sorely lacking on, if either of you could provide good books on the subject i would really appreciate it.>>30794612I wasn't trying to ignore or pick holes in anything, I was trying to show that, that particular analysis of the individual German's finances, along with>>30794635the relatively tame rearmament of Germany, shows an attempt at inwards improvement and security rather than outwards expansion.
>>30790719The cripple didn't like a guy who sent cripples to deathcamps.Who could've guessed?
>>30794680>The economics of the Nazi Germany is one subject I'm sorely lacking on, if either of you could provide good books on the subject i would really appreciate it.I have Wages of Destruction by Adam Tooze, though given your position of 'Germany was only defending itself' I don't think you'd agree with the majority of its conclusions.
>>30794759Im sorry if I came off as the usual wehraboo, my belief is that WW2 was just the inevitable conclusion to the disappointing end of WW1 as felt by pretty much everyone involved. I dont mean to say that Germany dindu nuffin, but I reject the notion that Germany alone was responsible when the entire world did its absolute hardest to ensure that the Danzig crisis broke into armed conflict.
>>30794759Wages of destruction is fantastic, worth a read for anyone interested in the period.The other one I would recommend is Albert Speer's memoirs, inside the Third Reich, but go into that one with a heavy dose of salt because he plays the "I had no idea" card a lot.
>>30794796Yeah, my impression of Speer is that he was plating the role of Sergeant Hans Schultz 20 years early with his whole, "you mean Hitler did WHAT?" shtick at Nuremburg.
>>30794793>Im sorry if I came off as the usual wehrabooCan't speak for the other anon, but admittedly I may have been too aggressive in that manner. Given the site we're on I'm used to dealing with unapologetic naziboos who insist that Hitler did nothing wrong and that every other nation is to blame for WW2.>but I reject the notion that Germany alone was responsibleWell of course not, I do think popular perception and education on this matter is too un-nuanced and black-and-white on the matter, but I do still think the Germany deserves the lion's share of the blame for it.
>>30790246>Why didn't the US back Nazi Germany in WW2?How about they were completely black-and-white opposites from one another with totally different goals that conflicted with one another? gee OP I dont fucking knowmaybe if Hitler wasn't trying to grab an entire continent for himself he would've been able to successfully gas all the jews from his country and it'd still exist today.
>>30794881I can understand that. Hitler certainly had ambitions in the East but I think the whole Danzig thing was a bit of serendipity for him. I don't believe he had any real plans for Poland as other than another minor German satellite state, but that changed after the Germano-Polish relations soured. He put off the invasion as many times as he could but it feels like he eventually realized that after the war he could use it to pass off his actions as justified after Germany won the war and then all hell broke loose. (this is my own interpretation, unfortunately, sources only lend credence to the ideas that either Hitler ate babies or he was the most oblivious fuhrer of all time) England, France, and the Unites States were particularly cheeky in the days leading up to the invasion, seeing as how they knew of the secret treaty of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact yet told Poland to continue refusing negotiations with Hitler. I think everyone saw WW1 as a fluke and thought they were going to have a nice quick war like the good old days, or they severely underestimated Germany's prowess, and then the entire planet shit the bed.
>>30794881Also, out of everything Nazi Germany ever did, its actions pertaining to the Danzig were the least outrageous. Its unfortunate that the allies allowed the Germans to get away with shit like the Sudetenland (even though Poland had done the same years before) but decided to draw the line at the most justifiable of all of Germany's grudges. Finally, after years of propaganda, Germany actually manages to find a state instituting policies of anti-German sentiments and the entire world decides to guarantee that state and give Germany all the political ammunition it will ever need to go to war.
>>30794997>I think everyone saw WW1 as a fluke and thought they were going to have a nice quick war like the good old daysI'm not so sure about this, France in particular seemed to gearing up for another slugging match, even abandoning their initial assault against Germany to take up positions along the Belgian border and the Maginot Line.>or they severely underestimated Germany's prowessLooking at the rapid collapse of the West this is probably more likely.
>>30794793I'm glad to know that not all Wehraboos are as obstinate. I'd say that WW2 was 80% Germany's fault and 20% France/England for being shit at treaty writing and enforcement.> VersaillesVersailles was the worst peace treaty ever written. It hurt Germany enough to cause resentment, but not enough to actually keep Germany down, which is dumb as fuck when France was in no condition to fight Germany.Even worse, Versailles proved to be toothless when France didn't have the political will to stay in the Ruhr, and Germany was able to skip payments altogether. France very little money while giving German nationalism a huge boost.> Germany had to go to warAs stated above, Versallies didn't do all that much to the German economy, even before they stopped paying. And despite the huge apparent numbers, both France and Belgium needed that money to rebuild war damage. Germany suffered zero damage to it's industry and infrastructure, while Belgium was overrun completely and France had it's most productive provinces turned into craters.Keep in mind that the post war Bonn government was able to pay off Germany's much larger WW2 reparations with less territory and population. The Versailles payments were perfectly affordable by the Weimar Republic if they committed to paying it instead of preparing for round 2.> Stab in the backThis was a very poisonous myth spread by the sore loser generals. By armistice day, Germany was militarily defeated in the field and would inevitably be pushed back into Germany proper. But because the Allies never set foot in Germany proper, the generals could say "we were stabbed in the back, and could have won if it wasn't for the Jews and Communists". IMO the point of no return was as late as 1935. Before then, war wasn't unavoidable (but it would need something like Hitler dying), and Germany wouldn't be a weak state. Modern Germany is the most powerful state in the EU and the Weimar Republic had a full 33% more territory.
>Can't beat UK>Oh well>Invade USSR>Troops retreating from Moscow>Oh well>Declare war on US>"What could possibly go wrong!"What did nazi cucks mean by this?
>>30795136>Versallies I think that Versailles in general was just a bad idea. Trying to end a war with the usual "reparations and concession of defeat" when a nation is composed of people as opposed to a monarch just causes the people to believe they are being attacked directly.>Stab in the backThat was certainly helped by the Spartacus rebellion right after the war ended. People were looking for someone to shift blame to then a bunch of discontent, radicalized Jewish Communists decide now is a great time to start the workers revolution and Germany now has its "true enemy" revealed at last.
>Muh Krupp Stahl
>>30795172>What did nazi cucks mean by this?"I really hope some retard from /leftypol/ shitposts on the first decent WW2 discussion that /k/ has in months"
>>30790246Are you fucking serious. They were in engaging in ethnic cleansing and genocide. Why the fuck would we back them.
>>30793607>never happenedhow's middle school going, kiddo?
>>30795245It was known that Jews, political dissidents and minorities were being treated like shit, but nobody knew about the Death Camps until very late in.The US had received intelligence about it from some spies but it was disregarded as absurd (because it IS pretty absurd), then it turned out "Oh fuck."
>>30795245>>30795276Especially since the US was performing its own similar actions with the internment of Japanese-Americans. Combined with reports like these,http://www.jta.org/1943/07/02/archive/russia-helped-1750000-jews-to-escape-nazis-says-james-n-rosenbergcoming through, and the severity of the "final solution" was completely unknown.
>>30795276There was evidence of what was going on, but it didn't all come together till afterwards. The humanitarian factor did come into play in a way, but a lot of it ended up being a propaganda tool (not a bad thing). It wasn't till folks started finding what was fully going on in the camps and putting all the pieces together that they fully realized the scope of what they were doing
>>30790301hans fuck off
>>30790246We were staying out of it but they kept blowing up our trade boats so we had to fight back
>>30795306Yeah, that'd make sense too.The US was doing internment, and probably figured that this was what the Nazis was doing as well.
>>30794720He wasn't a cripple back then dummy.
>>30790744>or the camps themselvesOur people are in these campsLet's bomb them!
>>30795306>Internment of Japanese-Americanswhich didn't start till 1941, while knowledge of persecution within the reich had been known since the get-go. The internment of Japanese Americans was certainly shameful and ridiculous, but it wasn't the systematic murder of ~11 million people as part of a national doctrine
>>30795335>he wasn't a cripple back then, dummywhat is childhood polio?
>>30795342>but it wasn't the systematic murder of ~11 million people as part of a national doctrineI don't think that's what he argued, rather that the US thought the Germans was just doing what they were doing.
>>30795049Yeah, I don't actually entirely disagree with Danzig. The population after all, was mostly German. That being said the Allies were unwilling to give any more concessions to Hitler and it was the straw that broke the camel's back.>>30795219>I think that Versailles in general was just a bad idea. Trying to end a war with the usual "reparations and concession of defeat" Perhaps, but the French were crying for revenge and there was no way they would've been able to avoid it. America and Britain didn't have the political will to carve up Germany any further so the terrible compromise was the best that could've been done.>That was certainly helped by the Spartacus rebellion right after the war ended. People were looking for someone to shift blame to then a bunch of discontent, radicalized Jewish Communists decide now is a great time to start the workers revolution and Germany now has its "true enemy" revealed at last.Can't really deny that either. The gommie jews provided a nice convenient boogeyman even if their actions were less of a stab in the back and more swooping in to grab what you can from a corpse.
>Germans
>>30795342Persecution yes, but persecution of Jews is like overcast skies in Washington. Combined with Germany motions with the earlier Havara Agreement and rest of the world's refusal to receive Jewish refugees people had no idea that when Germany was going to persecute the Jews it was going persecute the fuck out of them. Also, the Final Solution was not implemented until 1941. Until then the idea of establishing a foreign Jewish state such as in Israel or Madagascar was still the plan. Hence the extermination camps being in conquered land rather than Germany.
>>30790246>all these people thinking it had to do with anybody's opinion on the Jews whatsoeverShamefully nobody on the future-allies side gave a fuck about the Jews, Hitler and the other Fascists were big threats to the post-Great War order that was taking shape.
>>30795412Yeah, for the rest of the world, that didn't really come until later, where it could be used for propaganda purposes.The starting thought with Allied intervention wasn't "We have to save the Jews!"
>>30795412I think people were fairly receptive towards Hitler at the start because he stabilized Germany and stopped the left-wing movements from seizing power. This would be particularly attractive for industrialists and capitalists because it means that there wouldn't be another USSR popping up and cutting off their access to all the capital and resources contained within. This belief was further emboldened when the Strasserite element was purged from the party. Eventually however, people realized that while the Nazis tolerated capitalism, they only tolerated it if it was Aryan capitalism (i.e. Krupp, Porsche, Henschel). At about the same time Germany started playing Risk with its neighbors and the world collectively groaned and realized the Germans were back.
>>30790290Make it less storm fronty, and you might have a convincing viral video
>>30795366>French "men"
>>30793199Hitler having one good tactical idea does not make him a strategic genius. His interfering with his generals was legendary, including disastrous decisions leading up to and exacerbating the fiasco at Stalingrad. Not to mentioned he championed the whole ruinous idea of an invasion of the USSR. Nobody cites Stalin as a strategic mastermind, but eventually he learned to leave his war making to the generals.
>>30795514>muh Hitler did literally everything wrongYou do know how much corruption and sabotage played in the abwehr and okw towards Germany losing. They were filled with communists and other people working against them which is why it appears they fucked up so much.
>>30794680Why the Allies Won by Richard Overy has some fantastic chapters on the wartime economies of each country. Needless to say the German economy was an absolute shitshow until Speer took over, but it was too late by then.
>>30795472Remember a lot of people like Henry Ford thought Hitler was awesome.It was only after war started that people gave a shit. Pre 1939 he was like trump or putin, he made leftists mad as fuck and people loved it.
>>30790246USA saw an opportunity to finally cuck the British Empire out of its status as global naval hegemon. "friendship" didn't come into it
>>30795514>His interfering with his generals was legendaryBecause hindsight was 20/20, whats amazing is that Hitler, despite normally being a gambler with military actions, tells his generals (Guderian and the 2nd Panzer Group) to follow their own damn plans for once and in doing so causes 600,000 Soviet casualties and prevents the 18 divisions of troops from Siberia sandwiching the Germans from the front. Hitler interfered with his Generals, but half the time that worked out better than not. I understand the drive to vilify and denigrate Hitler and everything he has ever done,but its disingenuous to claim his actions were never correct.
>>30795536
>>30795575The Nazis never should have been in Russia to begin with, and that decision was all Hitler. He wanted his little German land empire. Once his mechanized divisions were devastated with no hope of replenishment his Reich was over.
>>30795539>>30795582BTFO, you just cant come back from a smug anime face.But really, the world itself conspired against the Germans with Operation Barbarossa, with the whole not warming up until Summer then the downright apocalyptic rasputitsa they were struck by.
>>30795608No one here is denying that the War with Russia was stupid, but Hitler's orders within it were sound.
>>30791947no one, the liberal just needed an excuse to pull out his /pol/ card
>>30795618Yeah, fixating on Stalingrad instead of fighting the smart way is sound.
>>30795628> fighting the smart wayTell me von manstein, what would you have done? Ignored the heart of the Soviet's oil supply from the Caucasus and the British lend-lease? Its certainly a good thing Germany was never short on petroleum otherwise they might have needed that. Its especially good that the Soviets could have won the war on their own and the foreign supply was just a cherry on top.
>>30795539I actually have some scanned chapters if anyone wants an interesting read.I believe the first two are about wartime production, with the last about military coordination.Chapter 6: https://www.docdroid.net/pYdVuUI/why-the-allies-won-ww-norton-1997-chapter-6-a-genius-for-mass-production-180-207.pdf.htmlChapter 7: https://www.docdroid.net/Mi6kEQR/why-the-allies-won-chapter-7-a-war-of-engines.pdf.htmlChapter 8: https://www.docdroid.net/CHyseka/why-the-allies-won-chapter-8-impossible-unity.pdf.html
>>30793199>The day before they invaded Poland
>>30790246Because FDR wasn't going to fight until someone hit us first. Japan hit us first, and declared war on the US along side the rest of the Axis Powers (Including Germany). Consequently, the US declared war on the Axis.Had the situation been something strange like "Canada, on behalf of the Allies, launches surprise attacks on Seattle and Buffalo", then maybe we would have backed the Reich, or just fought alone to defeat the Canadian Menace.
>>30795711It was the final offer of a negotiation that had been instigated on the 26th with Hitler presenting 6 points to the English in order to mediate a response with the non-negotiating poles.
>>30795883Right, and this required the taking of Czechoslovakia too.
>What conflict did these two nations actually have?Still being pissed at Germany from WWI? Idealogical conflict of Facism vs. Democracy? Human Rights vs. Genocide?
>>30795608>with the whole not warming up until Summer then the downright apocalyptic rasputitsa they were struck by.You realize that that literally describes every Russian seasonal cycle, and not just 1941 right?
>>30795888August the 26th, 1939 Birger Dahlerus a Sweidsh mediator presents this plan to the English embassy from a letter by Adolf Hitler1. Germany wants an alliance with England which should in the future eliminate all disputes of a political or economic nature2. England is asked to assist Germany in obtaining Danzig and the Corridor, with, however, the exception of a free port in Danzig which should be available to the poles. Poland should receive a corridor to the port city of Gdingen and have complete control of this city and a large area around it3. Germany obliges itself to guarantee Poland's borders4. Germany wants an agreement on colonies, on the return of its former posessions, or compensations5.Germany wants a guarantee about the treatment of German minorities in Poland6. Germany obliges itself to protect the British Empire with its Wehrmacht, wherever it could be attackedDahlerus, Birger Der Letze versuch, london_berlin Summer 1939, Nymphenburger Verlagshandlung, Munchen, 1948 pg. 56-61As a sign of good faith, Hitler ordered the postponement of the Wehrmacht's planned 26th of August invasion for attempts at political remediation, this offer eventually morphed into the 16 point plan seen above
>>30796007The Spring warming was delayed and did not appear until June. The delayed thaw caused rivers to be flooded until much later in the year than usual and caused a postponement of the invasion.
>>30796024Presenting outrageous demands and then invading another power is a highly aggressive tactic. It's sad you're buying into half-hearted Nazi safe-facing letters.
>>30790290Reported :D
>>30796042Forgot to mention that this was due to a La Nina event that lasted from 1940 to 1943 and caused all Northerly Latitudes in Europe to experience longer than usual cold periods due to air drawn from the Arctic Circle. This, combined with the usual extended Spring rasputitsa due to water already being on the ground in the form of snow, caused Operation Barbarossa to be bogged down in essentially the "Perfect Rasputitsa."
>>30796068These demands were not outrageous, see>>30794088>>30793986>>30793798Ethnic Germans in Poland WERE being threatened and harmed, this was not a half-hearted Nazi false-flag. Numerous nations surrounding Poland were reporting anti-foreign sentiments or outright attacks on non-polish citizens at the time.
>>30796068The British discussion and response to this letter is also mentioned in,Rassanier, Paul les responsibles de la seconde guerre mondiale, 1967 pg. 284Since you outright dismiss a Swedish Ambassador's writings as "half-hearted Nazi safe-facing letters"
>>30796100Yes, we are all familiar to the trumped up Nazi charges of annexation to defend a down-trodden German minority. Starting with Austria and later Sudetenland.
>>30796130>>30796068Sorry, that's the page number for a later edition that was translated. The original French document is available here,http://www.vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres/PRrsg.pdf
>>30796137>Hugo Rasmus, a Polish historian was lying about German refugees after the war to validate his countries invasion.If you're not going to provide any citations, or hell even any arguments Mr. Rhetoric, you need to leave.
>>30796130Ah yes, Paul Rassinier, noted holocaust denier and Nazi apologist.The Nazi's false demands to justify an invasion being transmitted through a Swedish ambassador makes them no less outrageous and no less a pretext for war. Re-read the demands, even if the British appeased them (again!) they're outright expansionist in nature. There's nothing to suggest Hitler would have stopped if the Brits acquiesced. He wanted a land empire to keep his Reich safe, and Poland was a key part of that, he was taking it regardless.
>>30792604but wars create more money.
>>30796202Wars don't create money. Wars are a gold sink for nations, as you would expect from an activity where destruction of things is the prime goal.
>>30796179Still was no need for Britain and France to guarantee Poland's borders
>>30796222wars create jobs, which create more money.
>>30796222In before glazier's fallacy replies to this post.
>>30796179>He was also an anti-Nazi French Resistance fighter, and a prisoner of the German concentration camps at Buchenwald and Mittelbau-Dora.Sounds like real Stormfront materialHow easy it must be to just dismiss everything out of hand as "bad-think" when it challenges you.The Germans were no less unjustified in seizing the Sudentland then when Poland seized land from Czechoslovakia in the 1920s and again in 1938.Germans were being harmed in Poland, Germany was justified in protecting them. Heres another book citing Rasmus,https://books.google.com/books?id=00pnVVpoddYC&pg=PA4&dqBut why bother, you're just going to claim some bullshit like "Winston Chu is a deep-cover Japanese Imperialist child of a comfort women here to discredit Israel" without ever presenting citations for any of your non-existent arguments.
>>30796240https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO2KVm3tn8M
>>30796300https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCl8AVv3aY4
>>30796240>Rassinier's lifelong dream was to write the history of Florence during the age of Machiavelli, but he did not live to realize it. His kidneys had been badly damaged from his torture at the hands of the SS and his fifteen months in Buchenwald and Dora, and he never recovered.> noted holocaust denier and Nazi apologist.
>>30792093>reclaiming land you lost in the last waryes, such as austria or czechoslovakia, yes?
>>30796240That same book mentions that hostility against German minorities was in direct response to German saber rattling and aggression.
>>30790286
>>30796454So now that we have admitted that Poland WAS in fact being hostile to minorities we can continue.>was in direct response to German saber rattling and aggression.What that does not explain however, is Poland's aggression towards non-german minorities or its land-grabs in Czechoslovakia.
>>30796474Yes Nazi Hermany invaded Poland to protect minorities. Really concerned with the welfare of European minorities, eh oh explains their practice of burning down entire villages when their soldiers were shoot at.
>>30796474Or for that matter its 1920 invasions of Ukraine and the newly (though shortly lived) independent state of Lithuania that the Poles enforced a claim on the eastern without allowing for a referendum. Despite Protests raised by the league of nations, Poland refuses to give up its claim, deploying troops once again in 1938 to the Polish-Lithuanian Border, and under threat of war, forces the Lithuanian government to acknowledge the 1920 Conquest.
>>30796508whataboutism the post
>>30796506>no arguments presented>no citations>only memesGermany invaded to protect the 19,000 German refugees who fled to the Danzig and the remainder who couldn't escape to safety. I only mentioned the other minorities in response to a claim that Germany forced Poland to commits acts of violence against their own, non-german citizens in response to "German belligerence". (which is especially hilarious considering Poland's own actions at the time>>30796508
>>30796514>Poland was innocent>Poland was only acting in response to German aggression>Poland literally dindu nuffinSpare me, they played a game, thinking they could wave their dick in Germany's face because papa England and mama France had their back, and lost so hard they actually managed to make Germany and Russia friends. (for however brief a time)
>>30796474I'm not him, but trumped-up doesn't mean it didn't happen, but that it was wildly exaggerated for propaganda purposes. Which is precisely what the Nazis did both before and after the invasion.>What that does not explain however, is Poland's aggression towards non-german minorities or its land-grabs in Czechoslovakia.You might have a point if Germany had actually stopped at the Sudetenland instead of taking all of Czechoslovakia, or if it had only reclaimed the formerly German parts of Poland instead of partitioning it again with Russia and massacreing Poles on flimsy pretenses at best.>>30796522He's right though, whataboutism doesn't justify Germany's actions, and there are plenty of German things in the past we can point at if you want to play this game.
>>30796548>trumped-up... but that it was wildly exaggerated for propaganda purposesbullshit, you know full well it means made upI'm not trying to justify Germany's later actions, only the invasion of Poland and the outbreak of WW2. The idea that innocent little Polski was happily sitting around enjoying vodka and the Nazis just up and goosestepped across the border after false-flagging a radio tower is absured.I'm certainly not trying to use whataboutism to justify germany's actions, only to remove the notion of innocent Poland. They were not some defenseless nation, caught in the grasp of an expressionistic superpower. They were going through the same nationalistic, irredentism as every nation at the time and repeatedly made hostile movements towards Germany>>30794088
If anyone had a reason to go to war with Poland it was the Soviet Union after poland took half of Belarus in 1922.
>>30796474>its land-grabs in Czechoslovakia.That "land grab" was only taking back the land Czechoslovakia took from us in 1920, when Poles won referendum, but Czechoslovakian goverment didnt acknowledge it, even though Zaolzie was mostly Polish population.After Poland won the war of 1920, we could easily take it back, but we didn't want to cause more uproar.
>>30796577That, along with the 1919 invasion of Russia that only ended after the Supreme Allied Council stepped in to tell Poland to knock their shit off and set an "ethnic boundary" between the two. Which the Poles then meme their way around by invading Ukraine and attacking the Soviets there until they enforce the Peace of Riga.
>>30796598>when Poles won referendum but Czechoslovakian goverment didnt acknowledge itOh that's fucking rich, like the referendums you denied the Lithuanians and the "free" City of Danzig ?
>>30796612FUCK the Lithuanians.
>>>/pol/83317171HAPPENING HAPPENING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!2 POLICE DOWN IN SAN DIEGO>>>/pol/83317171STAGING SNIPERS, 40 OFFICERS SURROUNDING HOUSESCANNER:www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/6740
>>30796572>The idea that innocent little Polski was happily sitting around enjoying vodka and the Nazis just up and goosestepped across the border after false-flagging a radio tower is absured.So is the idea that Germany was merely defending itself from an expansionist Poland slaughtering ethnic Germans, especially when they made it clear after the invasion that the ethnic minorities being oppressed was little more than a flimsy excuse for lebensraum.
>>30795245Yes, the Soviets and the chinese (our allies at the time) NEVER engaged in ethnic cleansing or genocide. We also used to back sadam along with every fascist dictator in latin america. America only looks out for America and her interests internationally. Don't be so naïve.
>>30796598>That "land grab" was only taking back the land Czechoslovakia took from us in 1920I'm sure the coalmines, steel mills, and the heavy industry in the area was just a coincidence :^)>even though Zaolzie was mostly Polish population.in addition to 80,000 poles, also 150,000 people of other nationalitiesBurneleit, Heinz Die vergangenheit bestimmt unsere Zukunft, aus Mitteilungen der Gesellschaft fur Kulturwissenschaften, Bietigheun-Baden, July 1997, pg. 21
>>30796640Then why did Hitler go through so many hoops to avoid the war? Postponing the invasion several times, and being in constant communication with England trying to come to terms? Why did he sign a non-aggression pact with the same country he was planning on later invading for the lebensraum? Its because despite the memes, he did actually care for the German people and was willing to put all his other ambitions on hold to try to save the however many thousands in danger. Literally for the first time in his entire career, Hitler violates his own policy of inflexibility to try and prevent a war from breaking out.
>>30796640>>30796668Really this isn't difficult to understand if you don't examine it as good vs evil. The Allies knew they were going to have to go to war with Germany sooner or later. Some people in Russia had the same inkling. Realizing that allowing Germany to continue rearming and doing tiny land grabs would eventually put themselves into an inferior position, the Allies decide to draw the line at what would have otherwise been a minor issue. Poland, previously unsure of its ability to throw its weight around, suddenly finds itself guaranteed by half of Europe and begins to act in a much more antagonizing manner. This eventually goads the Germans (who believe the Allies are acting as neutral mediators between themselves and Poland) to prepare to go to war over the Danzig. Everything is going well for the allies until the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and suddenly the threat of Soviet aggression they were relying upon to draw troops from the soon-to-be Western Front is gone. NSDAP and USSR tag team Poland in almost a month, Germany takes France in under two, and blitz begins.
>>30796668>Then why did Hitler go through so many hoops to avoid the war? Postponing the invasion several times, and being in constant communication with England trying to come to terms?Because he thought he could prevent them from coming in to intervene against yet another landgrab, let's not fool ourselves here.>Why did he sign a non-aggression pact with the same country he was planning on later invading for the lebensraum? To buy time for rearmament? He did exactly that with Russia.>Its because despite the memes, he did actually care for the German people and was willing to put all his other ambitions on hold to try to save the however many thousands in dangerIf he actually did care for the German people he would never have thrust them into an unwinnable war that got millions of them killed and deported.
>>30790290>this
>>30796730>Because he thought he could prevent them from coming in to intervene against yet another landgrab, let's not fool ourselves here.Except his "landgrab" was literally a plebiscite for self-determination of a supposedly free city that Poland was slowly occupying.>If he actually did care for the German people he would never have thrust them into an unwinnable war that got millions of them killed and deported.He didn't start a war to get millions of them killed, he did it to save several thousand. Should he have reenacted the Treaty of Versailles and let the Allies dictate to the German people how to exist while Germans die in Poland?Lets not fool ourselves here, the Allies were looking to start a war.
>>30796761>supposedly free city that Poland was slowly occupying.You mean the city that had literally been under NDSAP control since 1933? And he didn't just demand the city, he demanded the corridor as well. >Germans die in PolandGermans were hardly dying in Poland in any amount worth mentioning until Germany declared war.>Lets not fool ourselves here, the Allies were looking to start a war.They had plenty of opportunity to do it before Poland, but they just kept letting Hitler off and you seem upset that they didn't keep doing it.
>>30796808>literally been under NDSAP control since 1933?Source?>Germans were hardly dying in Poland in any amount worth mentioningEnough to drive, nearly 100,000 refugees out of it by August 1939>>30793986>They had plenty of opportunity to do it before Poland... your a naziThey really didn't though, they needed a valid cassus belli that painted the Germans as the aggressors and triggering a conflict over a nation who was doing the exact same shit Germany was shows how little they cared for their claims of desiring peace. I'm saying Germans was fairly justified with the Invasion of Poland and every nation involved was complicit in the outbreak of WW2.
>>30796598Nice try, but by setting up the referendumPoland had broken the postwar treaties which stipulated that no such events were to take place.
>>30796836>I'm saying Germans was fairly justified with the Invasion of Poland and every nation involved was complicit in the outbreak of WW2.ebin :DDD
>>30796864>no arguments>no sources>only memeswow, /k/ really is /pol/'s Austria
>>30796885
>>30796895
>>30796836>Source?It's not exactly a secret that the local Nazi party controlled Danzig, you know. If you want a specific source Hitler's Free City by Herbert Levine will do.>Enough to drive, nearly 100,000 refugees out of it by August 1939You keep throwing this around as if it's supposed to mean something. There being refugees doesn't mean they were fleeing mass slaughter, in fact your own source seems to suggest a lot of them were leaving because they were bummed out that germanium wasn't getting any großer after the Sudetenland.>shows how little they cared for their claims of desiring peace. Meanwhile you claim Hitler only wanted peace and to defend Germans without a hint of irony.>I'm saying Germans was fairly justified with the Invasion of Poland You claim you're not using whataboutism to defend Germany’s invasion yet that's exactly what you're doing.
>>30795335
>>30796910>Hitler's Free City by Herbert Levine will do.its honestly the first time i've heard of it, ill read it, thank you.>You keep throwing this around as if it's supposed to mean something. Riots against minorities, large-scale arrests of Ukranians in Galicia,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacification_of_Ukrainians_in_Eastern_GaliciaPolish boycotts enforced against German stores with Polish soldiers, regular firings off German-speaking workers, and closure of roads in Upper Silesia cutting off transportation to and from work.Stader-tageblatt July-August 1939Dokumenten zur Vorgeschichte des Krieges aus AA 1939 Nr.2, Dokumente 349 bis 437>Meanwhile you claim Hitler only wanted peace and to defend Germans without a hint of irony.Every speech he made up to 1938 he spoke glowingly of the Poles, either as a neutral third party or possible allies. >You claim you're not using whataboutism to defend Germany’s invasion yet that's exactly what you're doing.I'm sorry if I am. I was trying to make a point that Germany's actions against the Poles was neither unique or one-sided and that the Poles were certainly not innocent victims.
>>30796976You're trying to say that Germany’s invasion of Poland was justified because they were killing Germans, but when pressed you can only bring up other minorities, and even they weren't getting killed off en masse either. I mean hell, your source on the Ukrainian repression states they were committing widespread terrorism with Nazi support. If Germany had a legitimate reason to invade they wouldn't have needed Operation Himmler to make up reasons for them.
>>30796976>"Schultze-Rhonhofs writings on the origins of World War II have not been accepted as accurate by professional historians."Don't get your Dokumenten zur blah blah from guys who aren't historians.
Fun fact: giving link to this thread in Russia may end up your in jail. Why don't have same based laws stopping apologizing of war starting nazis, burgergfats?
>>30796668>Then why did Hitler go through so many hoops to avoid the war?
>>30796668>and was willing to put all his other ambitions on hold to try to save the however many thousands in dangerBesides the Jews, homosexuals, political dissidents and slavs you mean?
>>30796469God damn I hate that carroonist so fucking much. To the point where I consider the neonazi version a definite improvement.
>>30797066Because in America you have First Amendment rights and the state doesn't get to dictate your opinions.Because that's what a Nazi state would do.