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Megathread: Jacob Appelbaum (self.TOR)

rotorcowboy[M] が 投稿 - announcement

Hey guys,

I've heard your feedback and it's very evident that at least a few of you are very interested in what is happening around Jacob Appelbaum, a former core member of The Tor Project.

Now, the relevance of these events for this subreddit is arguable, but I recognize that there is no other suitable, populated platform to discuss recent developments, so I feel that I owe you all at least this megathread where you can discuss this, relevant to Tor or not.

However, please keep in mind that this is not a subreddit for witch hunts or mob justice, and if you see any such comments, please report them. No more additional posts that primarily discuss Appelbaum will be allowed, but I will leave any preexisting posts up.

On a personal note, I hope you guys know that I truly appreciate the community that you all have formed and I am quite honored to serve you as a moderator. I believe there is a delicate balance between being an open and focused platform, and I am doing my absolute best to maintain that balance so that everyone can enjoy what they read here. Please remember that I too am human and make mistakes sometimes, thus the creation of this megathread. As you may have noticed now, I am open to constructive criticism, but I am not very receptive to hostility. If you wish to address me directly, I would prefer a private message, but if you must do so publicly, please do it in the other thread. This is my diligent attempt to keep the peace with those that are (understandably) angry with me, but please keep in mind that any hostile or abusive comments toward me or anyone else here will result in a subreddit ban.

Stay awesome, friends.

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ベストトップ論争中古い順Q&A

[–]whatsgoingon3 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Summaries and timelines of events

There are two timelines - public and private. The private timeline is comprised of leaked docs.

NB: The author of the private timeline has opted to censor a doc after being told that it contains "personal information irrelevant to the matter at hand". I disagree. The information contained therein is possibly highly relevant, and pertains to those who have opted to publicly and permanently reveal very personal information about Appelbaum. There is also a refutation of parts of the censored doc that remains on the site.

[–]anarcho-stalin 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Major plot hole here: Applebaum is openly GAY.

I can't think of too many gay guys being so hardcore into sexually abusing women, going through such great lenghts for it.

So what is the accusing side's counter-argument to this... Some other convoluted conspiracy theory about Applebaum using a fake gsay identity in order to further rape women under the radar?

[–]indolering 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Cryptome leaked the initial email about these accusations from Tor's co-founder, Roger Dingledine. Some interesting tidbits:

Jake has been a very polarizing figure in our community. Some people here wonder why we don't make a bigger deal out of his contributions to changing the world, whereas other people here wonder why we hadn't kicked him out before. But it shouldn't be the Tor community's job to facilitate or moderate whatever comes next. Some of us are going to want to speak up with details or in support of some of the people involved, and that's fine. Shari will make sure that Tor does what it needs to do as a company, and right now our job as the Tor community is to figure out what we want Tor to be, and to make sure we get there.

It's tempting to wonder if there's some cointelpro-style attack going on. Realistically, we likely do have the attention of governments who are well-funded to attack us. But first, this really doesn't look like a cointelpro op. The complaints come from people both inside and outside the Tor community, and I know some of them. And second, in this case it really doesn't matter. It's no excuse for not taking responsibility for our actions. Tor, and our broader freedom movement, are about communities, and about how we want to interact with each other. Let's handle this situation as an example of how we want to do it right.

[–]themanofoneway--- 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Read this before jumping to concluions; Jacob dismissing the accusations: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1soorlp

[–]themanofoneway--- 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Read this before jumping to concluions; Jacob dismissing the accusations: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1soorlp

[–]Ignored0ne 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

He should just go to Russia.

I'm as anti-SJW as they come, but regardless of the veracity of the accusations(which I'm leaning to believing), he should have known that a day of reckoning was coming given how he was angering governments.

What in the world let him think that he could still have a "normal" life of any sort at that point? God he's an idiot. At this point, even if he's as innocent as snow, he's still a plain total moron and Darwin's taking his due.

[–]Florient 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's obvious that this was a coordinated feminist attack, and that the accusations are completely false. We need to recognize how threatening this new wave of SJW feminism is. Imagine when they control most businesses, healthcare, education, the courts....do you really want to risk living in that world? We need to organize and do something about it.

I'm surprised no one has talked about the ada initiative scandal, were feminist women would intentionally try and be in rooms 1 on 1 with men at tech conference and then accuse them of sexual assault. Feminism is a dangerous threat, and needs to be considered such.

[–]Bitterestvet 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

There's at least one way to avoid situations like this: don't sleep with radfems. In fact, don't even flirt with them. Or get into elevators with them. That's kind of rape, if they aren't attracted to you, I hear.

[–]johannL 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

https://contraspin.co.nz/the-weaponising-of-social-pt-2-stomping-on-ioerrors-grave/

The constant demand that Appelbaum, who so directly confronts superpowers, stop doing so in the name of victims is just plain suspicious.

What is being exercised by his accusers is the power to harness social media to cause mass distraction and brutal damage, to their own ends.

In practice, their demand for the utter exclusion of Appelbaum entails preventing him from continuing to explain to Persons of Interest the precise ways in which the agencies trying to torture and kill us on taxpayer dollars are doing so.

[–]bobbartho 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Easily the most critical and concise article imo on the events unfolding around Appelbaum - really brings into question motives and decision making processes behind all that has been released and how it's been released and doesn't take anything at face value.

I tend to follow the tor/wiki/privacy community, but not a participant, so as an outsider, this really shook me. The whole charade looks like a divide and conquer spectacle. One would expect more from an anarchist community.. at least I would like to think so.. that said, while my 2 cents on the topic aren't worth much, the article you posted is worth more than just a read for anyone looking for a larger scope on the topic. Just because a bunch of people with social capital put their weight behind a story doesn't mean it's true, at the same time it doesn't mean it's not true. By having approached the situation in this way i.e. website, timetodiejake, reprinting everything without check etc. people have basically prevented any form of due process happening and have effectively socially murdered JA. Well done to those, you're in effect acting exactly like the people/institutions your developing against...

[–]FluentInTypo 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

Ya know, I am almost OK with him being fired after being put on a performance improvement plan. Its a "business" after all. The fact that he was put on a PIP instead of being outright fired should give people a tiny bit a pause. HOWEVER...

Everything these women claim Jake did, they are doing to him. If they really were abused, they have turned into their abuser in every way and they did it AFTER he was already fired.

All the "reasons we did this" do not stand up to scrutiny. This is revenge and punishment plain and simple. Mind you, these are all just allegations, not proof. They all just vouch for each other. The ones who are public anyways. The rest are just anons - anyone can submit a story - you could or I could. There is no vetting for truth to any of it.

In the one actual rape claim, the women claims she was raped twice, one stopped when asked, but Jake didnt. Why is their no website or campaign against the other guy if this is truely a justice campaign? Why are none of the people who watched this rape occur outed? If its a "safety issue for the community" as they claim, why arent these others held accountable for their alleged reprehensable behavior? Or were their crimes allowable by the standards and rules this team of vigilantes decided on?

They claim they need to be anon. Yet they give such detailed accounts that Jake or other could out them with a word. One person identified herself in a story and had to correct "the whole fucking world" because they created a website. So no, anon for safety makes no sense. Its anon so they cant be challanged.

They claim he threatened to get them fired. They got him fired instead.

They claim he threatened them to "comply" with his wishes or he would launch a campaign to ruin them. They threatened him for a year, and when he wouldnt comply with their wishes, they launched campaign to ruin him.

They claim he threatened their friends and family and now they have done the same to him - everyone close to him is afraid to speak up for him outside anon sources like reddit. Everyone else is afraid what this collective will do to them if they call for an investigation.

They are isolating Jake, removing all sources for support.

They are humiliating him, telling any meaningless story they can to further vilify him.

Even though they first claimed they only wanted him out of Tor Project, they decided to roll with this public humilation game anyways.

Oh, and they planned this for the past year, according to Andreas story.

They are calling for the absolute rejection and banishment of Jake from all hackerspaces, colleges, universities, congresses, camps, sigints, conferences, etc etc in order to make them feel "safe". Perhaps its time to wonder about Jakes saftey in this culture of hate they created.

They became their alleged abuser in everyway. Everything they claim he did, they carried out against him and more. Their behavior is worse than his alleged behavior, because his behavior is still an unknown. Theirs is plastered all over the web and twitter. If you support this, I am disgusted with you. There is such a thing as "the wrong way" and this debacle is it.

No one has the right to do this to another human no matter what the allegation is.

They claim they wanted too, and tried too, figure out an alternative way to find justice that didnt involve revealing an identity or police "to protect Jake from being deported". Well, this is it. This is the alternative way that hacker culture has come up with for dealing with rape from here on in. All it takes is an allegation and a website, and you too, can find revenge, justice, healing and peace. Do you feel safer yet?

[–]torrio888 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

They claim they wanted too, and tried too, figure out an alternative way to find justice that didnt involve revealing an identity or police "to protect Jake from Where did you read this about them not wanting him getting deported?

It doesn't really makes any sense to expel him from all communities he is the member off but not wanting that he gets deported.

[–]indolering -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

It doesn't really makes any sense to expel him from all communities he is the member off but not wanting that he gets deported.

They are worried the US government is going to go after him for his work in WikiLeaks, etc.

[–]torrio888 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

They totally destroyed him and banished him from all communities he was associated and after this he will have great difficulty getting any job.

I think it doesn't really makes any sense worrying that US government will go after him I mean why would you care after doing this.

[–]indolering 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Not wanting someone to be able to use their position of influence to perpetuate harassment within a community is very different from wanting to send them to prison. As Isis herself said, she doesn't want him in prison where he is likely to suffer sexual abuse himself but she would be happy with him being sent to Alaska.

[–]groundbuttons 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

On the topic of his fate, there seems like a few possibilities:

  1. He takes refugee with an employer who will still hire him. He may have to fall back on sysadmin work, or non-security related IT work. This will haunt him in this industry for the rest of his life. It may be even harder in Germany to survive this way, especially being a non-native. Brutal.
  2. He's forced into another industry. Maybe the best route, at least short term. Taking up a new identity, may become a requirement, but his past celebrity status makes that difficult.
  3. Criminal proceedings lead to extradition through some government agency. Then he is either acquitted, or convicted. He might go the Assange route and try to get asylum, but he has no backing with most of the security community anymore. It would be like Assange, but with a lot less support. I doubt any of this will happen though.

As far as his reputation:

  1. In the long run he might be able to mend some of this, but he's already done huge PR damage by not fessing up to anything (even in a small way). That just makes people who "know" hate him even more. They will tell everyone over time the details, true or false.
  2. He never repairs anything, and is a pariah the rest of his life.

The worst:

  1. Suicide. Not trolling here this is always a possibility. I hope this doesn't happen. He's VERY bi-polar so I'm bracing myself. If he hasn't ever gotten therapy of any kind before he literally has nothing to fall back on. It will all crash into him at once.

[–]FluentInTypo 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

A very good write-up.

https://contraspin.co.nz/the-weaponising-of-social-pt1-the-crucifixion-of-ioerror/

[–]indolering 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

Leaked email from Tor outlining Jacob's sexualized recruitment strategy. As summarized by Violet Blue,

One was an email describing behavior that created a sexually hostile workplace. In a position of authority as a session leader for the Tor Project, Appelbaum told a group that new members were sexually recruited and vetted by him. Noting that he was already on notice for sexual misconduct, Tom Lekrone wrote that he’d confronted Jake about bragging that he was a sexual gatekeeper for Tor . Appelbaum replied to Lekrone saying that his “sexualized recruitment ‘strategy’ had ‘worked’ with the complainant.” Meaning, Jake not only told Lekrone he’d fucked the person who complained, but that their issue wasn’t valid because if Jake hadn’t fucked them into the organization in the first place, they wouldn’t even be there to complain about it.

[–][deleted] 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

Why don't his defenders think that's enough to fire him in itself? It's unprofessional, disgusting, and beneath contempt.

Instead of bitching about the SJW angle, why not focus on his breaking into Nick Farr's hotel room to leave threatening notes because he scheduled a talk with someone who claimed he was his government handler? How could anyone possibly make excuses for that?

[–]FluentInTypo 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

If he had just been fired, the story would die out in a week, with occasional mentions around the time of Congress when people look forward to him and Rogers talks.

But he wasnt just fired. He is being cruxified. That website and those women have done more damage to feminism than to Jake, and thats saying something.

A bunch of people vouching for each other that they can be "trusted" is not proof. 3 of them were proved wrong on one instance and the other (Meridith) keeps claiming plagarism, but has yet to provide any detail it and one of her plagarism claims was proven false as well. The other simply cant be vetted bc she will only whine that it happened, but wont talk about it or educate people on it.

Regardless, these people are doing a very bad thing. No one should be cheerleading this tyoe.of behavior, where all it takes to create a hate campaign, complete with website, created to decieve from the onset, allowing anyone to share any and all unvetted stories is so fucking insane and disrespectful to rape victims its an abomination. Remember, these are just allegations and anyone can make one. And spray-painting his apartment building, with arrows pointing to the wrong house? Jesus christ. This is what you support if you support them. And allegations is all it takes now. No need for Police, investigation or charges. Vigilante Justice is the new way of dealing with Rape. You could be next.

I wonder how "healing" this has been for them.

https://contraspin.co.nz/the-weaponising-of-social-pt1-the-crucifixion-of-ioerror/

[–][deleted] 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not jumping on anyone's bandwagon. Bottom line: he was fired for telling everyone he has a "sexual recruitment strategy" for hiring people at Tor--and then saying nobody had a right to complain since if they didn't fuck, they wouldn't have been there. What kind of good code can come out of a situation like that? He deliberately surrounded himself with easily controlled boundary-deficient doormats who couldn't stand up to him. How hard do you suppose it would it be for the feds or FSB to blackmail and compromise the whole fucking lot of them? Hint: not at all.

Also, if anyone working for me was in the habit of introducing colleagues to clients with they "give good head"? In front of a room full of witnesses? Are you FUCKING kidding me? I'd fire them immediately for being unprofessional and creating a hostile work environment. You don't need a mewling chorus of submissive former groupies to make that call. Seriously, you just don't.

Something else to think about: in a March 2016 speech at the Berlin Logan CIJ Symposium, Appelbaum jokes that he, quote, "just committed journalistic career suicide" when he blasted the Guardian for being controlled by the British government and lacking journalistic integrity:

Jacob Appelbaum at the Berlin Logan CIJ Symposium: "Your politics are in everything that you write"

Did you catch how salty he is about not being "treated like an equal"? How enraged he is about not being given credit for the story that won the Pulitzer? The self-righteous fury that he and Assange "were left out to dry?" Watch the facial expressions of the other people on stage.

Three months later, he's cast out of the community.

Gee, you think...?

Isn't it odd that everyone put up with his credit-stealing narcissistic community-college-dropout "sexual hiring strategy" predatory ass for years without saying a fucking thing? Until now?

Main takeaway: Jacob Appelbaum was a useful idiot who's not useful anymore.

Oh well, just a thought.

Also? Whoever tipped off Nick Farr really deserves a hearing.

[–]indolering 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

Violet Blue, a sex columnist, has detailed (mirror) Appelbaum's pattern of sexual harassment against her personally, at Kink.com, CCC, and Tor.

Kink leadership dealt with the problem head-on. Jake almost literally ran out of Kink after they confronted him, leaving in his wake a lot of stories about employee rulebook changes being created to stop his inappropriate sexual antics, job performance issues … His flaming exit was made complete with a ragey email sent to the entire company before they locked him out of the system, and a bizarre public sexual proposition to a section manager (“you should really let me fuck your wife”) in front of a team. Scorched earth at the Armory. When the Tor Project statement hit on June 4, people from both Kink and that era of the SF Chronicle contacted me, recounting these incidents.

[–]lolidaisuki 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

medium.com
kink.com

Both block access from Tor.

[–]indolering 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Added a mirror to the medium article, Kink.com is a porn site so....

[–]2a2ad2da2da2 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Im sure this will be buried amongst all the armchair detectives on here, but the fact is that its not up to anyone here to determine the facts of the case, firstly because there is no case as not one of the 'victims' ever bothered to file a police report which puts their motivations into serious question, and secondly because even had there been a case the damage to jake has already been done thanks to the director of the Torproject acting on one-sided claims.

The only thing anyone can honestly do at this point is document the fact that people made allegations over social media and jake has been attacked by mob justice for it. Unless there is a court proceeding with actual evidence then the matter is closed, the court of one-sided justice has gotten its way and jake will have to live with a tarnished reputation until the end of his days.

[–]ThePooSlidesRightOut 15ポイント16ポイント  (20子コメント)

Alison Macrina just posted this:

Jake Appelbaum sexually assaulted me, too. Read about why I'm going public, and what we can do now. https://medium.com/@flexlibris/theres-really-no-such-thing-as-the-voiceless-92b3fa45134d#.wpnuluo1b [1]

https://twitter.com/flexlibris/status/743115536251359232

She also claims that the 'sam' story is written by her.

I remember her from this talk, in which she shares the stage with him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXEUE__ap08 (is it just me or does the video have no sound?)

edit:

Isis Agora Lovecruft just posted this:

Jacob Appelbaum sexually assaulted me. I'm Forest on http://jacobappelbaum.net . [2] Here's my full story and what's next: https://blog.patternsinthevoid.net/the-forest-for-the-trees.html [3]

https://twitter.com/isislovecruft/status/743131291093209089

edit2: mirrored articles

[1]

[2]

[3]

[–]indolering 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

I skipped the part where they tried to organize an intervention and then Jacob threatened everyone,

Jake described all the time, effort, and ways he was using in order to completely ruin someone’s life who had attempted to stand up to him, as well as previous ways he had managed to get someone fired from their position and ostracised. He pointedly mentioned, several times, the names of multiple people who he had destroyed in the past for standing against him. In his current efforts to harass one of these people — which through backchannels I was already aware of, he said, “I’ve literally been spending 15 hours a day on this. […] I’ve been speaking with an investigative journalist team to make sure they don’t believe [that person]. […] I heard there was a plan to ‘Confront’ me in Valencia. If that happens, I probably will not take it very well…”

[–]2a2ad2da2da2 11ポイント12ポイント  (14子コメント)

Why are these unsubstantiated claims floating towards the top as if they hold any weight whatsoever? Why stop at rape, you could also claim that jake shot your dog and stole medicine from your grandma.

Its the responsibility of anyone who believes in due process and the rule of law to downvote these lame mob justice tactics. Social media is not the venue to be making criminal allegations.

[–]airbridge-atl 3ポイント4ポイント  (8子コメント)

Uh... the fact that these people are now identifying themselves, clearly situating their allegations- it doesn't make it a conviction by law- but it makes them 'substantiated claims'

[–]2a2ad2da2da2 7ポイント8ポイント  (6子コメント)

They will become substantiated when they make their claim before a judge, until then its unsubstantiated heresay designed to incite a public lynchmob.

[–]airbridge-atl 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

Hi, I get where you are coming from, you want a trial- innocent until proven guilty- etc. But this isn't hearsay- there are now direct statements from at least from 3-4 people. Hearsay requires second hand accounts.

[–]themanofoneway--- 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Just because there are more than one person saying something, does not make it true! And here is a statement from Jacob himself; http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1soorlp

[–]edgestra 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Just reading everything I could find about him. This just doesn't seem like something that he would do. At the current point we don't have a way to prove things either way (just one's word against another) but maybe in the future more information will come out.

[–]themanofoneway--- 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

There are so many alligations but so little proof.

[–]edgestra 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's the whole thing. There is little basis to the allegations. They haven't bothered to do anything other than start a website which seems to be down at the moment.

[–]FluentInTypo 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

These are allegations, not proof.

They vouch for each other.

None of this is truth, or honesty, or helping the alleged victims. Unless of course, you think that vigilantism and revenge enough to destroy a life, maybe cause suicide, is healing. I dont know how anyone can supoort this campaign. This is heinous.

[–]ThePooSlidesRightOut 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

While I absolutely agree with you, and initially thought Andre, Emerson and Meredith came across as more like crazy triggered feminists after the precommitment, the 'itstimetodiejake' account, the typosquatting, the tweet button from that website and its early versions found on the waybackmachine, the graffity, the leaked paper from Cyrus that could be fake and the refuted claims by Jill; the fact that Yan, Alison and Isis appeared a lot more level-headed and trustworthy than the folks who have spoken out before them, make me kind of unsure if maybe there actually is some substance to these claims after all. It looks like we've reached a point where nearly every core dev has attached their name to a sincere looking opinion.

Pandora's box has been opened and I doubt it's possible to close it again, so people are talking about it regardless. So while others may blindly believe what they read, the only thing we can do at this point is to bullshit-check what people are saying in a rational way, to spot liars and to find out if these stories are fabrications with holes in them or if they, in fact, have substance.

[–]whatsgoingon3 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

When you wrote this, I agreed with you completely. Leaked documents have thrown me toward a more complicated picture. (See my recent post with the private timeline.) The internal chat logs, for example, show a JA very concerned about having a long-time former CIA agent working for Tor, while Isis is strangely dismissive, irrational, condescending, and nonchalant. Alison has repeatedly attacked Daniel J. Bernstein as being guilty of "rape apologia" and "protecting a rapist" after calling for due process. There is also a "background" private doc that got leaked (also in my post) that seriously called into question the motives and background of principal players. There was a rebuttal to the doc written, and it conceded (by omission, and possibly by the call for censorship) most major points. Now a major player at Tor has resigned in protest of "recent events".

This appears to be a breakdown of the Tor community, not simply a revelation about Appelbaum's bad behavior.

Finally: Yan has alleged nothing except that her friends have been "hurt" by Appelbaum. Her credibility tells us very little here, especially given the persistent conflation of rape (literally one accusation, in total) with mistreatment (many accusations) by Appelbaum's enemies.

[–]johannL 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I never thought it's "all made up", but to mix the fishy or straight up fucked up things you mentioned with serious and maybe founded allegiations makes for a very questionable mixture. I've heard people excuse that with the social capital" and everybody being scared to criticize. Maybe so, but that's still the difference between using a battering ram on a door, and just dropping a 50t bomb on the neighbourhood and calling it a day.

[–]FluentInTypo 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

The articles are blocked by Cloudflare :/

[–]ThePooSlidesRightOut 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Just added mirrors :\

[–]FluentInTypo 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you. I ended up getting through to medium after changing circuits a bunch of times, but I appreciate your help nonetheless :)

[–]indolering 0ポイント1ポイント  (44子コメント)

TL;DR Jacob Applebaum was accused of rape publicly by another Tor developer. The Tor foundation fired him and released a statement encouraging victims to contact law enforcement.

In the following days after these revelations, others have come out and accused him of generic harassment and plagiarism. The Chaos Communications Club (CCC), Cult of the Dead Cow (cDc) and NoiseBridge have removed Appelbaum as a member of their communities.

Edit: I will keep this updated.

[–]ItsLightMan 6ポイント7ポイント  (17子コメント)

and we also have the complete flip side which are individuals who have been close to Jake claiming the accusations are false.

It's sad to see so many people blindly falling into the trap and out right pinning Jake to a wall. Tor, cDc and NB had no choice but to step away from their relationships (although NB's wasn't going on for a very long time) simply to stay out of the attack range.

This is sad for the community. All those who blindly follow should be ashamed.

[–]indolering 3ポイント4ポイント  (16子コメント)

Tor, cDc and NB had no choice but to step away from their relationships simply to stay out of the attack range.

... or people they trusted backed the allegations of assault and cut ties with him because of it. cDc and NB had no obligation to eject him, they could have just stayed quiet.

[–]ItsLightMan 1ポイント2ポイント  (15子コメント)

cDc and NB had no obligation to eject him, they could have just stayed quiet.

This is very dangerous for any organization to do and they are no different. If you're smart you will do everything you can to distance yourself from the issue and if that means letting the victim/suspect go..it has to be done.

Think about if it is true..Tor would be thrown in the trash for "allowing such a horrible human being" represent them..think about if he isn't guilty..he can go back to work with Tor (just speculating) and all is good. Tor was out of the firing range and all is back in order.

[–]2a2ad2da2da2 1ポイント2ポイント  (14子コメント)

Think about if it is true..Tor would be thrown in the trash for "allowing such a horrible human being" represent them..think about if he isn't guilty..he can go back to work with Tor (just speculating) and all is good.

The thing is Tor has already thrown itself in the trash for turning on one of its own to satiate a witch hunt. Had the accusers filed a police report Tor may have had legal standing to suspend jake until the court settled it, but to fire him outright because of some women of questionable morality pointed the finger at him, Steele played judge jury and executioner of a one-sided trial, that is NOT how socially just organizations are run.

And no, there is no going back, not to work, and not to having a normal life, Steele did alot more damage to jake than a simple firing, if she had any integrity she would apologize and step down, but good luck with that the womyyn have taken over Tor and will not give up their power.

[–]FluentInTypo 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ya know, I am almost OK with him being fired after being put on a performance improvement plan. Its a "business" after all. The fact that he was put on a PIP instead of being outright fired should give people a tiny bit a pause. HOWEVER...

Everything these women claim Jake did, they are doing to him. If they really were abused, they have turned into their abuser in every way and they did it AFTER he was already fired.

All the "reasons we did this" do not stand up to scrutiny. This is revenge and punishment plain and simple. Mind you, these are all just allegations, not proof. They all just vouch for each other. The ones who are public anyways. The rest are just anons - anyone can submit a story - you could or I could. There is no vetting for truth to any of it.

In the one actual rape claim, the women claims she was raped twice, one stopped when asked, but Jake didnt. Why is their no website or campaign against the other guy if this is truely a justice campaign? Why are none of the people who watched this rape occur outed? If its a "safety issue for the community" as they claim, why arent these others held accountable for their alleged reprehensable behavior? Or were their crimes allowable by the standards and rules this team of vigilantes decided on?

They claim they need to be anon. Yet they give such detailed accounts that Jake or other could out them with a word. One person identified herself in a story and had to correct "the whole fucking world" because they created a website. So no, anon for safety makes no sense. Its anon so they cant be challanged.

They claim he threatened to get them fired. They got him fired instead.

They claim he threatened them to "comply" with his wishes or he would launch a campaign to ruin them. They threatened him for a year, and when he wouldnt comply with their wishes, they launched campaign to ruin him.

They claim he threatened their friends and family and now they have done the same to him - everyone close to him is afraid to speak up for him outside anon sources like reddit. Everyone else is afraid what this collective will do to them if they call for an investigation.

They are isolating Jake, removing all sources for support.

They are humiliating him, telling any meaningless story they can to further vilify him.

Even though they first claimed they only wanted him out of Tor Project, they decided to roll with this public humilation game anyways.

Oh, and they planned this for the past year, according to Andreas story.

They are calling for the absolute rejection and banishment of Jake from all hackerspaces, colleges, universities, congresses, camps, sigints, conferences, etc etc in order to make them feel "safe". Perhaps its time to wonder about Jakes saftey in this culture of hate they created.

They became their alleged abuser in everyway. Everything they claim he did, they carried out against him and more. Their behavior is worse than his alleged behavior, because his behavior is still an unknown. Theirs is plastered all over the web and twitter. If you support this, I am disgusted with you. There is such a thing as "the wrong way" and this debacle is it.

No one has the right to do this to another human no matter what the allegation is.

They claim they wanted too, and tried too, figure out an alternative way to find justice that didnt involve revealing an identity or police "to protect Jake from being deported". Well, this is it. This is the alternative way that hacker culture has come up with for dealing with rape from here on in. All it takes is an allegation and a website, and you too, can find revenge, justice, healing and peace. Do you feel safer yet?

[–]indolering 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Tor leadership spoke to him on multiple occasions about his behavior and even suspended him for sexual harassment. They only fired him after multiple employees tried to stage an intervention and after full-blown rape allegations surfaced.

This isn't a mob running around making shit up just so they can burn someone at the stake. This is a community who took every pragmatic step possible to curb his behavior and is now ejecting him for that behavior.

[–]hellegance 2ポイント3ポイント  (10子コメント)

turning on one of its own to satiate a witch hunt

"Witch hunt" isn't the word for publicizing the real behavior of one person. Also, since some who Jake violated are in Tor, this is a case of Tor leadership protecting it's "own," not turning on them.

The argument that some kind of police "endorsement" is necessary or even warranted prior to corporate action is also weird and wrong. Tor (and any company in Washington or Massachusetts) can fire anyone at any time for any reason or no reason. It would be enough to say that Jake had just sexually harassed people, or rubbed them wrong, or was just unneeded. The fact that he actually raped people only makes it remarkable that Tor has given him the leeway they have in this scenario.

Demonizing Shari Steele is also incorrect and blatantly manipulative. Shari worked with Tor leadership (including the board), community members, and lawyers before taking any action towards Jake. There was no unilateral decision.

good luck with that the womyyn have taken over Tor and will not give up their power.

It's a shame that your sense of power is so bound to demographics.

*edit: minor typo

[–]johannL 2ポイント3ポイント  (6子コメント)

"Witch hunt" isn't the word for publicizing the real behavior of one person.

This goes both ways. Calling someone a "rapist, plagiarist, socipath, that's all folks" isn't "publicizing their real behaviour", it's a witch hunt.

You see, it's not about whether witches are real or not, it's about the process. You can have a witch hunt even against someone actually guilty of something, and this is one.

Take, say, the claim that victims have to tell their very detailed stories from which Appelbaum could easily tell who they are anonymously for fear of revenge, when it actually doesn't protect them from revenge but Appelbaum from anyone making a connection with him when he destroys their life or something. That makes no sense, but instead of simply going "oh wait, you're right", it's all about these hardened fronts and stiff upper lips, heh.

A witch hunt is a process that has as much structural integrity as a mud slide. That's how you know it, when it has no steering wheel, no brakes, no windows, nothing.

[–]hellegance 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

Since a couple of the victims have come out with their identities this week, I'm not sure what you're going on about.

[–]johannL 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

"A couple of" is hardly all, and I was referring to an argument made from day one. I was "going on about" how that was absolutely broken logic, and otherwise intelligent people were saying such things, too. It was an example of sophistry, of people just saying things because nobody felt like they had to actually justify anything they said. That already happened, and apart from time machines still not being a thing: that now some attached their name to it, just makes the whole "they wouldn't dare to because Appelbaum is such a monster" even more silly, if anything. So what am I going on about? I was making one of plenty examples of sophistry parroted and accepted by many.

What are you going on about though? Since you did not seem to understand my comment, what do you think I was saying?

[–]hellegance 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

what do you think I was saying?

Really, I don't know. Since you now seem to be saying there's no difference between knowing who none or some of the accusers are, your example itself seems to be meaningless and thus of no illustrative value to whatever point you're trying to make.

[–]2a2ad2da2da2 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

"Witch hunt" isn't the word for publicizing the real behavior of one person.

This isnt just jake, this is an ongoing systemic war against males in power thats taken down many a great man time and time again without ever once having to go to trial, and why should they go through the long and painful judicial process when its easier just to smear him and destroy his life in an instant.

The argument that some kind of police "endorsement" is necessary or even warranted prior to corporate action is also weird and wrong. Tor (and any company in Washington or Massachusetts) can fire anyone at any time for any reason or no reason.

Im not talking about what they are legally entitled to do, its about what is socially responsible to do, to respect the rights of all parties, instead of one completely over the other as feminisists would have it.

Demonizing Shari Steele is also incorrect and blatantly manipulative. Shari worked with Tor leadership (including the board), community members, and lawyers before taking any action towards Jake. There was no unilateral decision.

This was absolutely steele's unilateral decision, there was no public discussion of any of this until after she fired him, the very first message we got about this was her decision to fire him. The question is why are your clique of sjw's trying so hard to present what was a public lynching as some sort of fairly adjudicated process? Nevermind i already know the answer to that.

The fact that he actually raped people

See everyone, this is what they like to do, present speculation and heresay as facts to try to control the narrative, this is the only way they can get away with destroying an innocent (until proven guilty) mans life while making themselves look like the victims.

[–]ItsLightMan -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree.

[–]indolering -1ポイント0ポイント  (25子コメント)

A lot of people are claiming that the accusations are hazy, but one of them involves the public rape of an unconscious woman.

Edit: by popular demand a c/p of some of the accusations against Appelbaum:

From Isis Agora Lovecruft (a Tor developer),

I woke up very confused and startled because my pants were unzipped and Jake’s arm was wrapped around me, his hands in my underwear and he was rubbing my clit and rimming the edges of my vagina.

From River, who has chosen to remain anonymous but is known to both Isis and Alison Macrina,

I was intoxicated and not thinking clearly, and it took me a long time to realize that Jacob was going down on me, in the living room, in front of everyone. I told him that I didn't want to do that, and he stopped, but I don't remember what happened directly after, except that he kept touching me. The next thing I realized was that one of his friends in the room was touching me instead of Jacob, and Jacob told me to go down on his friend. I asked them to stop, however, all of this had a really long delayed effect because I was under the influence. I remember that his friend did stop touching me when I asked him to, but then I blacked out, and when I came back into consciousness, Jacob was having sex with me in the living room with his friends watching.

[–]mirimira 7ポイント8ポイント  (17子コメント)

So what are links to that story? Any meaningful corroboration? Any non-anonymous witnesses?

Edit: And seriously, you're saying that a "public rape of an unconscious woman" did not get reported to police? That's hard to imagine. That's far beyond "most rapes don't get reported".

[–]indolering 3ポイント4ポイント  (16子コメント)

So what are links to that story? Any meaningful corroboration? Any non-anonymous witnesses?

Yes, we now have at least one Tor developer publicly claiming sexual assault and two Tor developers vouching for a third woman who was raped by Jacob.

[–]mirimira 3ポイント4ポイント  (10子コメント)

It does look bad for Jake, I admit. But given what I've read about his S&M tendencies, I still suspect missing context. On the other hand, it's possible that he was being inappropriate with naive people. As more comes out, it's looking more and more like that, actually.

[–]indolering 3ポイント4ポイント  (9子コメント)

Being into S&M means that you have to be doubly careful! The reason safe words exist is not just to protect a partner from physical harm but from emotional harm as well.

I could see outsiders mistaking his actions, but fucking an unconscious girl in public after she's repeatedly told him not to is a clear violation of consent. Unzipping a girls pants and rubbing her clit while she's asleep ... there is no room for interpretation here. Get consent or be ready to face the consequences.

[–]johannL 5ポイント6ポイント  (8子コメント)

"the consequences" being what? Being excluded from universities and whatnot? Being sent to Siberia? Anything else?

[–]indolering 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Get consent or be ready to face the consequences.

"the consequences" being what?

Preferably going to jail. However, I don't personally agree with how we handle sex-offenders after they are released.

[–]johannL 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Oh, "preferably". So, is that like when Appelbaum would have preferred consensual sex, that makes the assaults okay, right? I.e. if you have a sane "preferred" option you pay lip service to, and otherwise work against, that clearly suffices, correct?

[–]indolering 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Going to jail is a lot worse than a public shaming.

[–]FluentInTypo 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

None of that is proof. I could "vouch" for Jake right now and it would mean exactly nothing. They are (ironically) abusing their own standing in the community to give more creedence to anothers anonymous story and calling it "proof" just because they have a seperate, unrelated and equally unprovable claim?

None of this is proof. Hell, she even goes so far as to detail how she spent months planning this whole thing out. Most of the stories arent even sexual assault but him being a "meanie". Just because these people say "this is how it happened" does not mean that is how it happened. If Jake was being more public at the moment, I would spend time picking him apart too, but as it is, this is a coordinated witchunt and I simply cant support it.

These women did exactly everything they claim Jake threatened them with. They became their alleged abuser in everyway.

[–]indolering 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

She spent months planning an intervention and escalated responses if Jacob didn't stop sexually harassing and raping people. Have you no concern for other Tor developers?

[–]FluentInTypo 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

According to her and her story. Again, there is no proof. We are expected to believe her and the others on her words alone. There is no proof.

Again, even if proof were offered up today or if Jake admitted to this, I CANNOT CONDONE THEIR APPROACH. It is NOT ok to launch a hate/bullying campaign, destroying a mans life based off allegations - allegations, not proof! It doesnt matter if there are multiple allegations of a group of people all vouching for each other. That does not equate to proof.

From now on, no women ever has to go to police anymore. Simply having allegations is enough. Getting revenge and healing through an online hate campaign is enough. This is a disaster for womens rights.

[–]FluentInTypo 5ポイント6ポイント  (6子コメント)

Copy and paste the story here if you stand by it so much. Then tell me why you believe it. Ironically, the website doesnt work with Tor browser with no javascript.

[–]indolering 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

I believe it because people I trust (i.e. Andrea) have multiple sources with similar allegations against Jacob. Jesus, look at Bill Cosby and how many times he got away with date rape and yet we have zero physical evidence. I could buy one person making this shit up but for core Tor developers risk their careers to out Jacob....

[–]johannL 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

Jesus, look at Bill Cosby and how many times he got away with date rape and yet we have zero physical evidence.

Yeah, and look at how people had their live destroyed and landed in jail for accusations which turned out to be willfully fabricated, and how the accusers hardly get shit for that.

If you just cherry pick like that, you can justify anything.

I could buy one person making this shit up but for core Tor developers risk their careers to out Jacob....

Who is risking anything? So far there isn't even serious pressure for them to even back up their plagiarism claims, with people like you running around calling anything they don't like rape apologism. Seems kinda cushy so far. The people I see mostly threatened, by being called all sorts of things, are people who criticize the process.

[–]indolering 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

If you just cherry pick like that, you can justify anything.

I'm not cherry picking, these are both cases in which there are multiple claims of sexual harassment by credible witnesses.

Who is risking anything? So far there isn't even serious pressure for them to even back up their plagiarism claims, with people like you running around calling anything they don't like rape apologism.

They are risking their own reputations, civil action by Appelbaum, and I would assume criminal charges of some kind. I've been the subject of harassment from cranks who didn't like what I was writing and it was hell. I can't imagine what Andrea and others going through right now. The only reason Jacob was able to sustain a career despite this behavior is because of how hard it is to speak out.

[–]johannL 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm not cherry picking, these are both cases in which there are multiple claims of sexual harassment by credible witnesses.

That is WHY it's cherry picking.

Holy mother of god.

I can't imagine what Andrea and others going through right now.

So far I saw I plenty of people getting called "rape apologists" or nastier things for simply raising questions, so far Appelbaum has had his appartment sprayed, and people are actually trying to shame the people saying he's not a total monster 24/7 to everybody into silence.

Yes, there's always assholes who harrass people, and I'm sure the shit is flung both ways. But you can't just turn a completely blind side eye to one of it and say "oh well".

The only reason Jacob was able to sustain a career despite this behavior is because of how hard it is to speak out.

"this behaviour"?

If it's so hard to speak out against the plagiarist, how come my questions about any documentation for that keep getting ignored even by people who vouched for that claim? Just how far can you have your head stuck up your own ass, really?

Also, everybody can claim that now, in hindsight. It's like shooting someone and saying they wouldn't have responded to a question anyway. Why should I take the word of people who otherwise seem so unable to engage honestly and just circle the wagons?

The moment the allegiations came out, when NOTHING was substantiated, I saw a lot of people going at least "heh, how is it news that Appelbaum is kind of a prick". So all this social capital to me seems to be mostly myth. A narrative that gets repeated a lot but is really just a narrative. You burned a piece of paper and now have a narrative of why you had to burn it. How fascinating.

[–]FluentInTypo 7ポイント8ポイント  (4子コメント)

The plagerism claim is documented here. It was false, but Meridith, like Tan and the whiteknight article, refuse to.acknowledge they were either wrong, or simply lying to make all other accusations more credible.

https://marc.info/?l=otr-dev&m=136089345627437

[–]mycroftxxx42 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

From my other post:

That's really not the plagiarism claim. The plagiarism involves his talk at 25C3, which involved a bug discovered by Len Sassaman and was presented without credit. Sassaman's later talk, "Lessons in Vulnerability Disclosure: So You Broke The Internet -- What Now?", is in reference to this.

I'm not sure why this later event keeps getting harped on. It should be obvious that it's not the event that's referred to. It happened two years after Sassaman's death.

[–]indolering 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Here's Appelbaum apologizing to Meridith, Sassaman's widow. Dan Kaminsky jumps in and bangs on Appelbaum a bit as well.

[–]mycroftxxx42 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Dan Kaminsky was one of the other people that Appelbaum stole that particular piece of research from.

[–]groundbuttons 3ポイント4ポイント  (47子コメント)

Nothing is likely going to happen:

https://rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system (very few rapes leads to convictions)

He's also hiding out in Germany which puts yet another barrier in the way.

It's possible that the FBI will take an interest to get even with Jake (so many FEDs hate him), and work closely to get some of the women to come forward.

That would be the likely scenario. It could even be happening right now.

Again I stress web of trust. People in the know who have the gory details are convinced he's guilty, but criminal prosecution is statistically unlikely.

For better or worse we get mob justice.

[–]johannL 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

(very few rapes leads to convictions)

After someone just pointed out how one shouldn't downplay rape as sexual assault, surely that goes both ways?

At the top, they call it "rape". At the bottom of the page:

Out of every 1000 sexual assaults, 344 are reported to the police.

What is it? Again, what is the definition used here? I know I could try to look it up, but you know, but you brought it up, and if you didn't even bother to think about that, that's horrifying.

When someone steals a piece of gum from you, would you report it as "theft" to the police? Should it be counted in "unreported thefts"?

To be called "rape apologist" by someone else for even asking that, well, it's also part of the dynamic here -- one person can't own their shit, another attacks in their place, it's all over all sorts of threads around this story -- so I'm not complaining. Better to get the low hanging BS out nice and early.

[–]FluentInTypo 6ポイント7ポイント  (9子コメント)

So far, I have yet to see an actual Rape claim.

I have seen the word thrown out to describe all kinds of behavior, such as flirting with his ex which she enjoyed and never complained about.

Where is an actual rape claim? Please, point me to a claim to read so I can see if it was rape or merely "i didnt like what he said to me - RAPE!!!!"

[–]indolering 6ポイント7ポイント  (8子コメント)

From River:

I was intoxicated and not thinking clearly, and it took me a long time to realize that Jacob was going down on me, in the living room, in front of everyone. I told him that I didn't want to do that, and he stopped, but I don't remember what happened directly after, except that he kept touching me. The next thing I realized was that one of his friends in the room was touching me instead of Jacob, and Jacob told me to go down on his friend. I asked them to stop, however, all of this had a really long delayed effect because I was under the influence. I remember that his friend did stop touching me when I asked him to, but then I blacked out, and when I came back into consciousness, Jacob was having sex with me in the living room with his friends watching.

[–]groundbuttons 2ポイント3ポイント  (7子コメント)

Now what I want to know, is how on earth do the Jake defenders in the thread ignore the above story?

Everyone's read through the site by now. Hello, there's a story that depicts 100% rape, and the rest is sleazy, douchey, borderline shit that he pulls on women. The kind of shit that will get you expelled from most social circles. Especially when there's 8 (more coming maybe) women? Or so?

The inside story:

Jake was molested by his mother (by his own admission, literally hundreds of people must know this by now). What he's doing from a psychological perspective is perpetuating the cycle of a more powerful person abusing a weaker person.

This is happening to Jake for a r-e-a-s-o-n. It's tied right into his psyche. Because he never got any kind of TREATMENT.

It's tragic in a way.

[–]theswapman 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Now what I want to know, is how on earth do the Jake defenders in the thread ignore the above story?

because the actual "victim" came out saying she was not a victim, dumbass.

[–]groundbuttons 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I guess "River" doesn't count then.

He got fired from the inside. They wouldn't have done that if they didn't think it was true.

He's not Assange.

Outside of Kink, in 2007, Jake had sexually targeted a female friend of mine. Her and I were going to a large tech party in December; I think it was a Wikimedia party, and Jimmy Wales was there. My friend was feeling hunted by Jake, and early in the party she said he was trying to isolate her, and told me she was scared. She is not a big or strong girl, nor is she loud, and he was trying to convince her to go into a stairwell with him. The convincing turned into trying to pull her away physically, grabbing at her hands. I locked my arm with hers, and put myself in between her and Jake. All while he was trying to reach around me, while he was telling me to let go. I said No, she’s not going with you. I insisted a bit louder, No. He was livid.

[–]theswapman -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

I guess "River" doesn't count then.

are you blind? "River" literally came out and said it was not rape and the story was not written by her. jesus

[–]indolering 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's not River, although GroundButtons isn't citing River's story either. From JacobAppelbaum.net:

I was intoxicated and not thinking clearly, and it took me a long time to realize that Jacob was going down on me, in the living room, in front of everyone. I told him that I didn't want to do that, and he stopped, but I don't remember what happened directly after, except that he kept touching me. The next thing I realized was that one of his friends in the room was touching me instead of Jacob, and Jacob told me to go down on his friend. I asked them to stop, however, all of this had a really long delayed effect because I was under the influence. I remember that his friend did stop touching me when I asked him to, but then I blacked out, and when I came back into consciousness, Jacob was having sex with me in the living room with his friends watching. When I realized what was happening, I told him again that I wanted to stop. He asked why, and I said that I didn't want to do that in front of everyone. He did stop, but replied, "well, that's what we've already been doing", and turned extremely cold. Eventually, he brought me into his room, but I felt like I was being punished.

[–]johannL 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Right now we are seeing a site that calls him "rapist, plagiarist, sociopath" withot any real docs for the plagiarism claim, or any clinical diagnosis for the sociopath one, and "has had sex with someone in front of others" and "rubbed someone's clit in their sleep" for rapist. That is being google bombed all over the place, under his real name.

If this was a community thing, it could have been posted under heypeopleweneedtotalk.somerandomwebspace.tld, posted on a few mailing lists and HN, and other places where nobody gives a fuck about remembering a URL anyway. The only reason to do it this way is to destroy him for journalists and in general.

The kind of shit that will get you expelled from most social circles.

Right, and the above doesn't? What kind of "social circle" is that, "daddy issues, the movement"? And are those the same social circles who interact with soldiers and work for drone contractors and whatnot? What about people who ever broke into other machines in the wild? Surely those are also never heard of again? Just trying to get a feel for this utterly alien moral landscape you seem to be describing.

This is happening to Jake for a r-e-a-s-o-n. It's tied right into his psyche. Because he never got any kind of TREATMENT.

It's tragic in a way.

Yes, boundaries are important. And this also applies to people who are in a lynch mob while blaming those they are lynching, people who talk about plagiarism but then can't follow up for TWO FUCKING WEEKS NOW, people who talk about abuse but somehow don't seem to show a lot of suffering or empathy, but rather seem callous and unable to communicate like adults, but instead in slogans and technically correct but extremely suggestive and bloated language.

But of course, this type of Stalinist trial and deniable gulag (after all, they didn't even go to the cops, they just "shared their stories" on a smear site, and everybody else is just making voluntary decisions) is just what would happen in "any social circle". That's the kind of sophistry we get. If these stories were shared with swapped gender, are you telling me the reaction would be even remotely similar? Nah, people would probably be livid about "slut shaming". They would ask for evidence for sure, they wouldn't just have Nick mention emails from "important people at the CCC" and then not even ask to see them, and so on. They wouldn't attack people who dare to come out and say "I know this person, they were decent to me, while this website says they're a monster to everyone". And people would surely ask about the plagiarism claim, and press for answers.

You putting the WORDS "abuse" in bold doesn't change the process you're defending, and it doesn't make it less abusive.

[–]indolering 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Now what I want to know, is how on earth do the Jake defenders in the thread ignore the above story?

Or downplay it as sexual assault.

The inside story

Yikes, my mother works with this population and it's heart breaking.

I have a somewhat different take on the psych aspect; most abusers being abused themselves ≠ most of the abused going on to abuse others. But there is a nature plus nurture effect: if his mother was doing these fucked up things he's probably genetically predisposed to it and being sexualized as a child only magnifies the problem. But yeah, as a cognitive psychologist my opinion here amounts to dime-store analysis.

Ugh, fuck, now I feel much worse for the guy. I just wish he would issue an apology and seek help so we can all move on.

[–]groundbuttons 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Just so you and everyone know this is 100% true. Jake used to talk to total strangers about this within 5 minutes of knowing them. (everyone talked)

He was sexually abused as a child, and his father was a heroine addict. This was never something he kept secret.

100% true. No troll. You don't have to dig far to verify this.

Not to mention a MOUNTAIN of other child abuse shit then went on his life...

[–]johannL 10ポイント11ポイント  (34子コメント)

You're completely ignoring the plagiarism claims. How about unpacking things, and dealing with them properly, instead of just having this very convenient "rapist, sociopath, plagiarist" package to then flush away sight unseen?

(very few rapes leads to convictions)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRyt5FhrBEk&t=10m56s

Yes, and? Also, what definition of rape are they using? Getting kissed on the mouth and being scared of herpes?

It's possible that the FBI will take an interest to get even with Jake (so many FEDs hate him), and work closely to get some of the women to come forward.

That would be the likely scenario. It could even be happening right now.

And that possibility is supposed to tide us over all these bad faith efforts we are seeing right now?

I don't care what could be happening right now, what has happened and is happening is quite enough on the plate.

People in the know who have the gory details are convinced he's guilty

Or so some of them claim. Others disagree. And some of those "people in the know" also have all these gory red flags all over themselves though, and they're convinced they don't even have to address them.

For better or worse we get mob justice.

Mob justice is an oxymoron. This does nothing for any victims, this does nothing for justice, this is just attacking Appelbaum.

[–]indolering 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

Yes, and? Also, what definition of rape are they using? Getting kissed on the mouth and being scared of herpes?

My mother, ex-girlfriend, and close family friend have all been raped and nothing happened to their attackers. Go fuck yourself you rape apologist.

[–][削除されました]  (4子コメント)

[removed]

    [–]rotorcowboy[S,M] 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Please be nice. I know that was a joke, but this is a sensitive topic.

    [–]FluentInTypo 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Would you consider adding this link to the jake megathread text so people can get a timeline of events? Its a little biased against imo, but it is factual.

    https://github.com/cjdelisle/JakeGate

    [–]indolering 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I don't care for FluentInTypo but I think this timeline is helpful, accurate, and fair.

    [–]FluentInTypo 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Apologies. I will delete it.

    [–]johannL 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Oh, so you can't answer the question either.

    Asking a serious question in a snarky way doesn't make me a rape apologist, by the way. If that phrase is to mean fuck all.

    Unless you are meaning to equate being kissed on the mouth against your will to what happened to your loved ones, of course, and take offense to me mocking that story being mixed in with the others? I'm not the one who mixed it in, after all.

    You don't think I have friends who have been abused and worse? Bah.

    And bleh to you using what others suffered, no matter how much you love them, for trying to shoot down a post you can't argue against properly.

    But after awhile I began to understand that oppressed people —just by being oppressed — suffer serious wounds. You might go into a store, and somebody might follow you around the store, and you would have a choice of how to react: you could confront them and say "Why are you following me around the store?" or you could say to yourself: "Well, I came here to buy some socks, so let me just concentrate on buying the socks." But you still feel the pain. The obvious racism before had affected me, the prisons, torture... my whole life had created wounds, scars in me that in Cuba I was able to find a space to begin to heal. To begin to think, "Yeah, this happened", and I can look at it and see it for what it was but not be there, not be destroyed by it, not be turned into something bitter and evil by it. And not be like my enemies. Because I think that the greatest betrayal that a revolutionary can participate in is to become like the people you are struggling against. To become like your persecutors. I think that is a betrayal and a sin.

    -- Assata Shakur

    You don't know shit about me. I know you can't respond to what I'm saying. That's where we are atm.

    [–]FluentInTypo 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

    And why would the FBI get involved when we dont even know who this person is? Are the even American? If not, FBI has no interest. Jake is no longer a US citizen.

    There will be no charges because it is likely no one was raped. Like someone else said, being kissed is not "Rape". Nevermind that the accusations are anonymous. No law enforcement agency is interested in that. What are they going to do? Investigate a crime with no victim? Charge Jake because someone told a story on the internet?

    I want to see an actual rape claim. Not "Jake was mean to me, he is such a RAPIST".

    And Meridith was wrong about the plagerism way back when and she is wrong now. It is fully documented on the gmanelist. She is just an embarassment to herself.

    [–]groundbuttons -1ポイント0ポイント  (25子コメント)

    1. I'm not ADDRESSING the plagiarism claims. Last time I checked I'm allowed to talk about anything I want. Nice projection.

    2. You're splitting hairs over how rape is defined. All the statistics I've read tend to show that most rapes don't lead to convictions. Go look it up. Rape culture. Hello?

    3. Nothing I say is supposed to tide anyone over. The FBI might be going after him, or maybe not. Who knows.

    4. The people in the know did post a few horrible stories... If they go after him they can swear under oath that those stories are true, and that is a form of evidence... if they choose to, but again rape culture, he's in Germany etc... Where there's smoke there's fire...

    [–]FluentInTypo 5ポイント6ポイント  (20子コメント)

    "They" are anonymous. "They" decided on vigilante justice instead of the police. Why would you think they would go to the police now, after they made themselves look soo fucking bad by making that website and participating in an online bullying campaign, which in itself, is illegal if they admit it was them and they would have to press charges. Never mind that two stories proved false already.

    Lastly, why would FBI be involved? Jake is no longer a US citizen and who knows if the accuser is a US citizen. If she is, then she has to admit to partaking in an online cyberbullying campaign before bringing charges and admit to all these very bad decisions in court. Do you think there would be a conviction when some stories told by the online cyberbullying campaign have been proven absolutely false and most of the so-called victims arent even alleging actual rape, yet smearing his name with RAPIST all because of what amounts to some uncomfortable flirting attempts?

    This campaign has *eviserated" feminism. It has eviserated actual rape victim credibility. They have set women back decades with this shit.

    [–]indolering 3ポイント4ポイント  (6子コメント)

    "They" are anonymous.

    A Tor developer has come forward publicly with an allegation of sexual assault.

    This campaign has *eviserated" feminism. It has eviserated actual rape victim credibility. They have set women back decades with this shit.

    Ugh, please take your crusade elsewhere.

    [–]FluentInTypo 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

    You mean she coordinated this whole attack? Planned it for months? Thats what I just read.

    As for the "we dont want to go to the police because of retaliation" - they posted very detailed accounts online (anon), yet the very details are so revealing, these people will be able to be identified. So much for that claim. They will get no anonimity from their witch hunt. Hell, one of the stories was so detailed the actual "victim" had to go public and correct the 3 eyewitnesses reporting the story.

    As for the "we dont want to go to the police because it would mean Jake would lose his political asylum and have to leave germany OR go to jail"...she then goes on to explain just how her plan of " collective anonymous reports" are actually enough to do both the very things she didnt want to do by going to the police.

    So which is it? Or is it "i didnt fully think out the logic bombs in my plan to form a anonymous bullying collective"? Her reasoning doesnt make sense.

    She details how she tried to get him to do as SHE wanted, but when he refused, she began to threaten him. "If you dont do as I say, I will go public" then she details how she got him fired, how she started "working" the community against him, got other people involved in her campaign, decided to go public even after they successfully got him fired - all because HE didnt do as SHE wanted. Doesnt that sound like every claim she says Jake made against her, was employed by her against Jake?? Doesn't that sound like an abuser to you?

    Regardless, this is not how you handle a situation like this. Th fact that Tor Project has allowed this to play out in this manner disgusts me. I no longer trust the project nor its leadership. If this is the next evolution of "justice" for rape victims, I want nothing to do with it. She became the abuser she is trying to rally against. Ironic, that.

    [–]indolering 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

    You mean she coordinated this whole attack? Planned it for months? Thats what I just read.

    You are casting a reasoned and deeply sympathetic response to harassment as a coordinated attack.

    Are you seriously complaining that they have (thus far) restrained themselves to a public shaming of Appelbaum? Do you really expect them to stay silent and do nothing?

    [–]FluentInTypo 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Every male in Hacker culture now has to be afriad of false claims made under the guise of anonymity. Any women could do this to any male, or hell, even female, since the assualt can be anything from rape to "meanie". They have just made it OK to take justice into our own hands and do so without having to show a shred of evidence.

    And they did it within the Tor Project whose new motto should be Made by Rapists, for Rapists. The public will sure have super grand opinions of Tor now!

    Again, I reiterate, a group of people vouching for eachother is not proof. Luanching a hate campaign, ostrizing a member for all communal hacker spaces, of which there is a lot, all without evidence or proof is heinous. I am astonished that people support their campaign. This should not be the new normal.

    So what should they have done? I dont know, but certainly not this.

    [–]indolering 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

    The accusers aren't just some random people making one off claims, these are core Tor developers.

    So what should they have done? I dont know, but certainly not this.

    What's the alternative? Talk to him in a real stern voice and hope he doesn't do it again? He had already been suspended by the Tor foundation once and would cast any criticisms of his behavior as conspiracies.

    [–]groundbuttons 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Bingo. He was already suspended.

    History of doing dubious shit.

    The track record is what is key here. People are ignoring the fact that he's been in and out of sexual jams his entire life.

    [–]FluentInTypo 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    So you agree that they are abusing their positions of power in the community to lead the witchhunt then. I guess since they are not "regular" people, we should believe them? That doesnt make any sense, especially when there is no evidence. If you dont think its possible for two people to collude and get others to play into the narrative they create, youre deluding yourself. People in power do it all the time.

    Nevertheless, condoning this situation they created is what I argue against. It could be that in 3 days time, actual evidence gets presented, or Jake "admits" to something and that would NOT change my opinion on this matter at all.

    They have created a dangerous situation where it is alright to launch online hate and bully campaigns against anyone in leiu of going to the authorities. Dont feel like the hassle of police? Simple! Tor Project developers taught us a new way of dealing with it and everyone has the power to employ it! Know any "embarassing" details of someones life? Throw them up on a website so you can "heal". Dont like someone? Accuse them of heinous sexual assualt via this handy git repo template we made! If your afraid they wont believe just one story, find others who dont like the man and have them tell other stories to build up full on character assassination anonymously! Its how crypto-anachrist handle things now - the new normal.

    No. I will not, can not condone this. The implications on the community, nay, the world are too fucked up to let this stand as the new " justice".

    Nevermind that it is straight out of the CIA psyops playbook. Seriously, nevermind that. I wont go calling this a grand conspiracy however, this community is certainly well versed in the methods and if anyone can employ them better than the CIA, its the crypto-anachrists. And you expect me to trust my secrets with Tor Project now? How far will they go? Will they try to decloak certain people on the internet for defending Jake? Claiming they are enablers and threaten their "safe spaces"? They already are doing the exact things they claim Jake did ...privately threaten which when didnt work, publically humiliate. They got him fired from Tor, which they claim he would do to them. They ruined his reputation, which they claim he would do to them. They call for the complete banishment of his presence in any public place where any of them, or any person who simply "feels icky" when he is around. They claim they did this of of fear of retaliation, but then posted such detailed accounts of their stories that it is certain that Jake would know who there were and could decloak them with a simple word. How again did this website "protect" them? And they did all this without any proof except for their "position of authority" which they also credit Jake for abusing.

    They became thier abuser in every single way and you are cheerleading for them.

    Thats fucked up.

    I reinterate. Tor Project can no longer be trusted. Any man in hacker culture, especially if he is the least bit controversial with his opinions, should stop all work with women. These women made sure thst there are no such thing as safe spaces for men. These women ensured that NO RAPE VICTIM EVER HAS TO GO TO THE POLICE AGAIN. There is now an alternative.

    [–]johannL 1ポイント2ポイント  (12子コメント)

    This campaign has *eviserated" feminism. It has eviserated actual rape victim credibility. They have set women back decades with this shit.

    Exactly. Well I don't know about decades but it's not helpful. It's only useful for attacking Appelbaum, not for protecting anyone, not for justice.

    [–]mycroftxxx42 0ポイント1ポイント  (11子コメント)

    Man, it's a good thing that Patterson and Shepherd aren't feminists.

    That's really the low point in this argument that just draws the contempt it - the idea of a feminist conspiracy. ESR's "From Kafkatrap to Honeytrap" article, the putative source for this belief, has multiple responses from Patterson talking about the people pointed out by that particular conspiracy. ESR himself refers to her and her writing at least twice in other articles. She is as literally on "your side" as it is possible to be without surgery. Every insinuation that this is some SJW conspiracy is hilarious.

    [–]johannL 1ポイント2ポイント  (10子コメント)

    Man, it's a good thing that Patterson and Shepherd aren't feminists.

    So? That's good for them. And besides "feminists" is not a dirty word (in my books), there's just some people really overdo it... and that's in full force here. When I asked for how a rape statistic is actually made up, someone leans into me about how all these women in his life were raped, and I'm a rape apologist and should stfu. And that kind of stuff can be seen all over this discussion on all sorts of places. Anyone not 100% onboard with all of this is a potential rape apologist, sexist, or whatever to some. It's absolutely used to shut people up, or shame them into not even speaking up.

    Read all the stories on the website with reserved gender. Would you think it would go quite the same way? Heh. And doesn't one literally call for a "safe space for women" in the tech community? I mean, I get that the problem is probably extremely weighed towards one side, but still, words mean things, and if it quacks like a duck it just might be a duck.

    And you know, seeing how Patterson and Shepherd were kind of involved with getting all of this started, not having firm words chewing that stuff and these tactics out says a LOT MORE than whatever nice lip service they have paid elsewhere, much less before all this.

    Every insinuation that this is some SJW conspiracy is hilarious.

    Tell that to those who make it. I for one say what I actually say, your scapegoats I care for not.

    And the proof is in the pudding, in the ignored questions, the sophistry, all these attempts to smear and attack people while crying about how disrespectful they are. It's certainly something that attracts SJW like shit does flies.

    Besides, how is that any more hilarious than the idea that people who point out the obvious, and ask some questiosn, are all sexists and rape apologists, including the women and rape victims among them? That's some flat earth level of theory some people have there, but I don't see that being called much out by anyone who supports this campaign in all its facets. Don't care much for integrity and honesty after all, or what? If you do, apply it.

    [–]mycroftxxx42 0ポイント1ポイント  (9子コメント)

    Besides, how is that any more hilarious than the idea that people who point out the obvious, and ask some questiosn, are all sexists and rape apologists, including the women and rape victims among them? That's some flat earth level of theory some people have there, but I don't see that being called much out by anyone who supports this campaign in all its facets. Don't care much for integrity and honesty after all, or what? If you do, apply it.

    It's not that people don't care about these things. They just don't care about you. You have no social capital to demand access to the private lives of these people. The people demanding "proof" in this thread are so far out of the loop that they don't know the politics of the people who set off the initial public outcry. The perspective being touted as right and good is so myopic that it can't work out the existence of information by inference from the public actions of the people and organizations involved. If you have some reason for the people and organizations involved in this mess to care about what you think, you should apply that. Otherwise, in the ancient words of the internet, lurk moar.

    [–]johannL 2ポイント3ポイント  (8子コメント)

    You have no social capital to demand access to the private lives of these people.

    So what question of mine is that relating to? That's right, none.

    The people demanding "proof" in this thread are so far out of the loop that they don't know the politics of the people who set off the initial public outcry.

    "The politics of the people" historically are completely irrelevant in context of the actions on display now. So what you consider super important knowledge is just a shitty ad-hominem distraction. It's about claims and actions, and these are all on the table.

    If you have some reason for the people and organizations involved in this mess to care about what you think, you should apply that.

    It's about the content, no matter how much you wish it wasn't. They make public claims which have obvious flaws, and it doesn't matter WHO points that out, or how asks the questions.

    Otherwise, in the ancient words of the internet, lurk moar.

    If anything, lurking applies to those who make claims about plagiarism, but then can't back them up.

    Bluff moar.

    You see, all I'm "demanding" I already got, asking questions and calling out the bullshit I see, including not having answers the don't drip with sophistry and mob tactics. You personal and identity politics you can do with the people who subscribe to them, I'm with thinking people, and you can play your little games, and you can call us names, but when we have hard criticisms you cannot answer, then that criticism stands. Your little clubs are completely irrelevant, get out of your safe space into the arena of debate or don't be in it.

    [–]mycroftxxx42 -1ポイント0ポイント  (7子コメント)

    Because I need a laugh, please tell me which claims of plagiarism haven't been backed up?

    [–]johannL 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Where there's smoke there's fire...

    Oh, you mean like making and then refusing to answer about the plagiarism claims? Mixing in all sorts of shit together with serious allegiations? The dripping with sophistry and the not so stellar character performance so far of people who call someone else a sociopath, because that justifies anything done to him, which is exactly how a sociopath thinks? The "TimeToDieJake" twitter account of these oh-so-not-abusive-people they blatantly lie about, how some people who spoke up with things too adult for the rest to handle were ignored and mocked by throwaways on HN? Jill Bähring's correction, and the fact that got flagged on HN, while people had been all over Nick with little hearsay anecdotes and no real questions, just lapping it up?

    I'll expand this post, I don't have time atm. But yeah, let's talk about smoke.

    edit:

    This whole thread is just bizarre to me, especially dismissing this as "parent-child". For what, exactly? For saying "this is not so good IMHO, this would be better for these reasons", or what?

    And of course, the website and all that stuff, that's not "parent-child", that's not just dictating Appelbaum is a "rapist, sociopath, plagiarist", nah.

    And then she gets away from getting over herself and simply discussing the content of it by saying "You're either changing the subject or moving the goalposts and I can't tell which." That's just... o_O

    Or take this:

    reconciliation is admirable and everything, but when people with responsibility toward the community (not referring to you here) look the other way when abuse happens because they hope reconciliation can be achieved someday, that's called enabling.

    Oh, not referring to her, just responding it to her in this context, using maybe justified grudges against other people against someone who is doing their best and who certainly doesn't take abuse lightly. Shava isn't assuming Jake didn't do anything, she simply is asking for a structured, fair, goal-oriented process...

    ... and Meredith and others can't even say "yeah, I can see why this or that is not quite okay". They just can't bring that over their "lips", and not even address the questions and criticisms without some contortions to deflect. Rape culture this, distrusting the legal system that, oh look at the conspiracy theorists, look at those taking abuse lightly or looking the other way, look anywhere other than to the concrete and valid criticism of what they are doing and saying, right here right now. The consequences their actions have. Let's talk about anything else, and of course never answer the most basic questions about the plagiarism stuff.

    As someone on HN said, "don't place obligations on the victims". Isn't that all warm and fuzzy. Just like the circular logic of "believe the victims" doesn't even make anyone blink, much less spill their drink.

    Speaking of spilling your drink, let this sink in:

    look the other way when abuse happens because they hope reconciliation can be achieved someday, that's called enabling

    Looking the other way and reconciliation are mutually exclusive. You cannot reconcile or rehabilitate or anything when something hasn't even been acknowledged. So that doesn't make any sense, and is not in response to anything the others are saying. That's how she receives it, it sounds like in her mind, due process, legal or otherwise, is "looking the other way". Anything below flat out "believing the victims and not asking any questions about any of this" just doesn't seem enough.

    And as for looking the other way, it sticks out like a huge sore thumb how much this applies to the plagiarism stuff up until now, over 10 days and counting. Especially considering how she preached how everybody in academia knows what a serious issue plagiarism is, and even said she is NOT happy to resolve this in private. How very important and serious.

    As the academics among us on this list are well aware, plagiarism is a serious concern. I personally have seen far too many instances of plagiarism or likely plagiarism swept under the rug -- including the one that led me to quit my PhD -- to be comfortable with seeing this matter "resolved" behind closed doors; I would prefer to see it dealt with right here where you brought it up by failing to properly credit Nadim's work.

    Then it turns out she's got nothing, but doesn't even acknowledge that. Fucking hell. The seriousness of a crime, and the seriousness of spurious accusation of that crime, are directly proportional. You don't have to be in academia to know that, heh. So how is she not a brazen hypocrite? What kind of arguments or additional sources are there that could change my impression? Even if all accusations against Appelbaum are true, how is this a good faith effort in any sense?

    This is a "scene" in which you're used to seeing surveillance or other stuff pushed with fear of pedophiles and whatnot. "Think of the children" get shot down when there is even a whiff of that, but somehow, this is different, this is the magical wildcard that works on just anything.

    So what is it, is e.g. TOR or anyone in crypto hating children and loves the idea of abusers getting to enjoy the abuse of others, seeing how they don't let "think of the children" be an argument to shut legitimate use down -- and there's terrorism, too, wtf, y u love terrorizm so much plz no enable :( -- or are people who call for due process in this case "rape apologists", because it's more important that any rapist who gets accused be punished with total destruction, than that people don't get punished for wrongful accusation, or that made up accusations can't be simply get "mixed in" with valid ones?

    And you know, I don't take abuse lightly at all. I hate being so cynical, but that's exactly why I don't like serious things being mixed up with silly things and a false testimony and "rapist, plagiarist, sociopath" and a lot of chirping crickets, a thicket full of them, when it comes to very obvious and obligatory questions. Shava put it exactly right, this process is abusive as well. And it's the opposite of taking this stuff seriously, it's just using it for a quick hit job, revenge. Maybe that's why they don't want to discuss a whole lot, they have what they wanted. At best turning victims of genuine transgressions into tools.

    Who will step up and give talks like this? Certainly not any of all those "real coders", they can't even make their code talks interesting. So, now you have

    • a "community" where victims of abuse might actually not necessarily feel better about coming forward, considering all this mess that it might now be associated with, regardless of how well they might handle it, which is fucking unfair.

    • a "community" where any male who is alone with any female is at risk, and anyone who takes precautions and doesn't even look at a woman is still not sure if they are in the clear from total destruction.

    • actually not even that, it has nothing to do with males or females, it's a jungle now, and if you piss off the wrong monkey and they pull a number on you, you now know that most people with something to say don't have the guts or the brains to notice that and speak out against it, and shut off their brains at will whenever there is something they are complicit in they want to wash their hands of.

    All of this can be fixed. But not by simply denying it. "Sunlight this". Not partially, not in a very carefully selected and manipulative manner, but seriously.

    [–]shava23 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I was in that conversation with Meredith and I think you misinterpreted her.

    We were discussing formal and informal (Truth and) {R, r}econciliation processes.

    I'd been jumped on for talking about working toward nonviolent reconciliation, a la South Africa. People with the victim faction, thinking I had meant some apologist thing, had tore me several new orifices. I pointed out that the Boers didn't come out shiny. Formal nonviolence is not for wimps.

    Meredith was familiar with the distinction and we started chatting separately.

    So what Meredith's reference here is, is to people in the community who see abuse and turn away with magical thinking, assuming that without effort or process that informal reconciliation (small r) will make everything all right.

    Just wanted to clarify, that was a good conversation.

    [–]johannL 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Hey, thank you. I'm sorry I got that so wrong.

    So what Meredith's reference here is, is to people in the community who see abuse and turn away with magical thinking, assuming that without effort or process that informal reconciliation (small r) will make everything all right.

    Oh, then I'm also glad I got that exactly wrong. Egg on my face, but yay. Because yes, just sitting things out and hoping they go away is the worst one can do. But that goes both ways, that's because the initial "blitz" and the following silence unsettled me so, and why I'm glad there are things like that huge write-up on github at least. The plagiarism stuff really bothers me, and that's not to say "hah! so maybe the rape stuff is all wrong too", not at all, I just want it out of the way. I just don't understand how that could not be wiki'd by the actually concerned people, how could they not be interested in that, right?

    In the end, people like me, who are ultimately on the sidelines but don't like how all this went down as far as they could see (which is a limited perspective) can talk a lot of shit about people they don't know, get a lot of things wrong like I did... take from "the public" what is useful and good, discard the rest.

    To be even more "parent-child", I see a bunch of people who are hurting each other in various ways. People much smarter than me, who are much smarter about much more complicated things. There is something fucked up here when even I can tell it's fucked up, if you will.

    Sadly my main tool is acidic criticism, but I guess people who play on the interwebs should be above that. I'm not trying to make friends enemies, or nudge people who have grievances to make up and play nice, I want to kick all tires I can find so everybody can get their shit together -- because this cannot just stand as a done deed. For me it was a shocking precedent, and it really wasn't because I'm this adoring Appelbaum fan or women hater or anything. Sexual assault sucks, mobs suck, snowballing gossip sucks and circumventing the legal system to be sloppier about the process, and infinitely harsh about the sentence, sucks super much.

    Sorry for ranting so much, but since I basically forced you to correct me about something I got wrong, that wasn't really even my place to care so much about, I might as well explain why I involve myself to this degree. I don't want to see this "through", and I don't think people reading tabloids ultimately have a right to the persons they read about, but I want to see people arriving at some sort of table, some sort of solid process. Until that part I do kinda care, even if it's just because I "like tech" (so the fallout will suck for me, too) and have seen mob situations before, and I hated them. In that sense it's absolutely a pet peeve, but it's not because I want any of two mobs to "win". I want people to be people damnit :(

    [–]johannL 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Nice projection.

    Oh? What did I ignore?

    You're splitting hairs over how rape is defined.

    No, it was a question. Well, I was being snarky, but it was still a question, and seeing how some statistics are made up by asking about things even the victims themselves don't consider sexual assault because they are too minor, the methodology matters. You can't just present the "results", without everything else they can be hardly easily interpreteted.

    All the statistics I've read tend to show that most rapes don't lead to convictions. Go look it up. Rape culture. Hello?

    So, did you even watch the video? I asked, "Yes, and".

    As in: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/mar/25/rape-myths-low-conviction-rate

    Helen Reece argues lack of independent witnesses is main cause of conviction rate which is similar to that of other crimes

    Oh my, the sky is falling :(

    You know, medical malpractice and other horrible things can also be hard to prove. It sucks, but we can't just throw out the baby with the bathwater because of it.

    And you know what's worse? Being able to do things to people nilly-willy by merely accusing them. Once you have pushed that through, you will see a LOT more false rape accusations. False rape accusations for which, if you had watched the video, women often enough get off with not even a slap on the wrist.

    Are you telling me that, say, having your boobs honked is worse than being thrown in jail for 25 years, loosing your friends, family, any prospects of jobs? Because once you throw out due process, you open the flood gates. Rape is illegal. Falsely accusing people of rape is not illegal enough, and if you're looking for a "rape culture", that keeps screaming "victim victim!" as it attacks, also consider that. There is more than one way to abuse people, and there can be even several "cultures" justifying the same form of abuse.

    Nothing I say is supposed to tide anyone over.

    Good, because I think these things are kind of independent. I'm not saying just because I consider it a smear campaign Appelbaum may not have done stuff he should be held accountable for, too -- but to just mix it all up and basically say "heh, courts aren't good enough, so sadly we can only have mob justice, which we go about in a way that is SO sloppy we pour more effort into the documentation any random pet project", is still not on. Suddenly, nobody knows how to tech anymore. Yeah, right.

    but again rape culture

    Yeah, again with the "rape culture" indeed.

    Remind me, this is not some SJW feminazi bullshit because at some point in the past Shepard or someone criticized that stuff, right? Just checking.

    [–]qubedView 2ポイント3ポイント  (12子コメント)

    TL;DR of what I've read:

    Some verified incidents and some misconstrued. The verified mostly involve unwanted advances, for which the Tor Project had reprimanded Applebaum with a warning he would be asked to resign should the advances continue. Also complaints from a former girlfriend that he would regularly push beyond boundaries that she would set and made her feel unsafe to be around him.

    As for rape allegations, in the verified stories, there appear to be no literal allegations, but rather an incident in which someone saw Applebaum being very handsy with someone that they interpreted as being unwelcome attention. The person in question he was touching said she was indeed upset, but not at Applebaum, and the attention he was giving was indeed welcome and reciprocated.

    As far as I see it, it's really not all that relevant beyond the human resources running of The Tor Project. I do think it was unfortunate for him to be the unofficial spokesman for Tor, but mostly due to his abrasive and condescending tone, but I'm sure it was all the more reason they wanted to distance themselves as stories about him get out.

    [–]up_o 3ポイント4ポイント  (6子コメント)

    I think you hit it. The truth was somewhere in-between the calls on both sides.

    [–]indolering 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

    Somewhere between a saint who is the victim of a government conspiracy or a rapist ... so someone who systematically sexually assaults women? That's someone we want in the community?

    [–]up_o 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Fucking Christ you people would argue with a post. Did I make any indication that Jake being booted was a bad thing at all? Even a little?

    Is wanting to know the whole truth for truth's sake so god damn despicable when it's in this type of context?

    [–]indolering 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Sorry, I was in defense mode. My eyes were bleeding from the anti-feminist posters.

    [–]johannL 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Right, and the "rape apologists". Stop spewing your bile over valid points and questions you cannot deal with directly, and can't even concede. Well, but that's really the pattern of this whole thing, anything that can't be addressed doesn't get addressed, and then people recede and smear the people they want to attack indirectly. It's been like this from day #1.

    But of course, if I called you a deranged liar, that wouldn't do to "balance out" your claims to functionally equal effect of declaring someone a non-person who has no right to speak, correct? Funny how that only goes one way. Probably goes with being on the side of the pure and good.

    [–]indolering 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Right, and the "rape apologists".

    You've been complaining about feminists and SJW:

    Remind me, this is not some SJW feminazi bullshit because at some point in the past Shepard or someone criticized that stuff, right? Just checking.

    [–]johannL -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

    No, I wasn't "complaining about SJW", heh, that was the last line in a long post, a snarky punchline if you will, what I was criticizing I spelled out, and I was thinking of someone on HN saying:

    Both Meredith Patterson and Andrea Shepard are literally anti-SJWs:

    http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/01/07/social-justice-warriors-wreaking-havoc-in-open-source-software/

    http://www.inc.com/tess-townsend/indiegogo-campaign-funding-tech-conference-white-nationalist.html

    https://status451.com/2016/04/11/against-blacklists/

    So, seeing several things about the campaign and the language of it, the logical contortions, I wonder what "literally anti-SJWs" is even supposed to mean here.

    Appelbaum also spoke out against harrassment. So does that mean nobody should look into the claims of abuse, because he "is literally anti-abuse"? Likewise, I do find this a bit on the pitchforky end of SJW, and that it "can't be" because in other situations some people spoke out against that stuff is not really an argument.

    If you think it's something to be ashamed of, something to be "muted" for, to have noticed that people actually can overdo trying to improve society, to the point they become tribalistic zealots who repeat a set of canned lines they don't reason about (and can't answer questions or criticisms about without retreating into some sort of "you're a bad person" fortress), that is just your wishful thinking. You have to argue, you don't get to just command. Otherwise you're proving the point, and that you can't even see that just proves it further.

    [–]johannL 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

    You forgot the plagiarism claims, if not to say, the claim that plagiarising is all he does. Often repeated, not documented once, no questions about that got answered even by people repeating those claims. That is one huge red flag for me, something that cannot be meshed with good faith.

    And apparently, that's supposed to be swept under the rug. "Rapist, Sociopath, Plagiarist", Appelbaum got destroyed by taking that at face value, and now people would rather not own up to their part in that.

    Remember that Gabe Newell quote, "don't lie to the internet"? Just don't. I think some people spend way too much time in the twitterverse to still even be able to imagine the attention spans others have, and think if they just keep ignoring it, they will never have to own their shit. Yet all allegations combined don't make up for that campaign, and all of that which doesn't get resolved, will stand.

    I'm sure it was all the more reason they wanted to distance themselves as stories about him get out.

    The stuff about "it fits rumors we have heard of a while" was just giving credence in a deniable way to the smear job. That's not distancing oneself, that's putting oneself at the heart of it. What kind of press release mentions "rumors"?

    [–]Letterbocks 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

    I was confused by the plagiarism claims, particularly the suggestion that they led to a suicide. Seems a fucking heavy thing to lay on someone.

    [–]FluentInTypo 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

    The plagerism claim:

    https://marc.info/?l=otr-dev&m=136089345627437

    Meridith is a liar.

    [–]mycroftxxx42 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

    That's really not the plagiarism claim. The plagiarism involves his talk at 25C3, which involved a bug discovered by Len Sassaman and was presented without credit. Sassaman's later talk, "Lessons in Vulnerability Disclosure: So You Broke The Internet -- What Now?", is in reference to this.

    I'm not sure why this later event keeps getting harped on. It should be obvious that it's not the event that's referred to. It happened two years after Sassaman's death.

    [–]johannL 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Yeah, especially in that "let me mention this thing that is not my story to tell" way. Who's supposed to tell it, the guy who killed himself? Either bring it up properly or not at all... but that could be the motto of the whole thing really.

    [–]johannL 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Not terribly interesting, but surely better than the first attempt:

    http://mgpf.it/2016/06/07/real-decoding-jake-appelbaum-statement.html

    [–]LZ1IRQ 15ポイント16ポイント  (19子コメント)

    A website in support of Jacob and calling for actual justice has been launched - https://ourresponse.org/. Seems to be supported by Marie Gutbub and other members of the community.

    [–]kiltrout 6ポイント7ポイント  (18子コメント)

    I am quoting a friend here who said, "positive character witnesses in the case of assault or rape: They do not serve to prove or disprove, only influence."

    [–][deleted] 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I think that could be served as a testimony of how perpetrators can be really deceiving. Their true nature could not be spotted out even for some highly educated, experienced women over a long period of time. I think people could learn from this incident that perpetrators cannot be stopped by warning others or 'exposing' them. Ripping off one Jacob Appelbaum is not enough, people should try to prevent those perpetrating behavior from happening. Maybe educating and asserting a healthy boundary is a good start. Choosing safety precaution against someone should not be considered as impolite. Not sharing a bed with others should not be considered as impolite, no matter how good their credits are.

    [–]kiltrout -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Yes. People need to stop defending Assange. He needs to stand trial and face justice.

    ~ whinging cyberlib maniacs ~ but he hasn't even been chargggeeeddd!!!!

    [–]johannL 3ポイント4ポイント  (14子コメント)

    Did your friend not read the website either? They never claimed they're trying to disprove any other individual claims. It does help with the whole "he's a plagiarist and sociopath 24/7" stuff however.

    [–]kiltrout 0ポイント1ポイント  (13子コメント)

    We read it. So you agree that 'our response' serves to influence people into thinking he is a good guy, in the moment that victims are speaking out. I don't know how that can be called 'actual justice', in fact it is a horrible injustice for Jake to turn himself into the victim and for these people to aid him in that end in this moment. It is a document without full conviction, not asserting Jake's innocence or denying specific claims. It is just some folks saying "Boy howdy, I sure wasn't raped," at the least appropriate moment, where this does an injustice and gives ammo to those who want to deny the accusers any public ground to stand on. Which is truly unjust.

    [–]johannL 2ポイント3ポイント  (7子コメント)

    So you agree that 'our response' serves to influence people into thinking he is a good guy, in the moment that victims are speaking out.

    Are you saying that once has been cast as "bad guy", it has to be total, and nobody can say anything nice of them, because of the "victims"? What kind of nazi shit is this?

    I don't know how that can be called 'actual justice'

    Then I don't know what to tell you. In any trial, the accused gets a defense. When you claim "not only did he this and that, but this is the kind of person he is", then people who say they are not that kind of person should very well be allowed to speak out. Heck, everybody should. To say only negative things should be allowed, no matter how flimsy, is fucking lunacy, and it's fascinating how you can pretty much imply that and not see how you're holding a torch and a pitchfork.

    in fact it is a horrible injustice for Jake to turn himself into the victim

    That's your own binary way of approaching it which you project on others. It's not "either they or Appelbaum" are the victim. Even when there are real victims and real things to address, that doesn't mean just calling him a plagiarist doesn't have to be backed up at all, just because he fingered someone in their sleep or had sex with them while passed out drunk.

    That this even has to be explained once, is scary, but that it's consistently twisted or ignored, that's fucking lunacy.

    It is a document without full conviction, not asserting Jake's innocence or denying specific claims. It is just some folks saying "Boy howdy, I sure wasn't raped," at the least appropriate moment, where this does an injustice and gives ammo to those who want to deny the accusers any public ground to stand on. Which is truly unjust.

    You know, I smell this shit 10 miles against the wind. In this case, "which is truly unjust", again showing the false dichotomy of "either he did nothing wrong and the process is unjust, or he is guilty of something and the process is just". You wouldn't know conviction if you were convicted of slander in a court of law, and you should be ashamed of your own willing participation in a lynch mob, while talking of "justice" because you consider that more "just" than your own fascist strawmen. "It's better than letting anyone say anything in defense". Black on fucking white. While the people who should talk like adults don't, the mob gets more and more deranged. But still, it's nobodies fault.

    gives ammo to those who want to deny the accusers any public ground to stand on

    They SAID they do not want to do that. How about you simply believe that? This isn't the first time I'm reminded of Arendt, from day #1 with the whole declaring him as something, a kind of person, something which was about a very vague set of DEEDS, but ALL about his "character" and "modus operandi" and other such stuff -- and then proving the guilt by executing the punishment. That was out of the Nazi and Stalinist playbook but right there, but from then on out, it was always about talking about the motivations of the people who are saying things you don't like rather than addressing or simply accepting what they said.

    One of the greatest advantages of the totalitarian elites of the twenties and thirties was to turn any statement of fact into a question of motive.

    -- Hannah Arendt

    Remember when you freaked the fuck out because I used the word "orthogonal", and rambled about how for me everything is dead, how I don't relate to other people as people, and other such stuff? Again, Arendt writes about all that in detail. And if you can't be arsed to fucking heal thyself, I advise the rest to read up. It's morbidly fascinating how there is hardly anything that can't get infected with totalitarianism.

    Here's another random thing, also somewhat related to this lynch mob with everybody throwing pebbles but nobody stoning a person to death based on fingering someone in their sleep:

    These definitions coincide with the terms which, since Greek antiquity, have been used to define the forms of government as the rule of man over man—of one or the few in monarchy and oligarchy, of the best or the many in aristocracy and democracy, to which today we ought to add the latest and perhaps most formidable form of such dominion, bureaucracy, or the rule by an intricate system of bureaux in which no men, neither one nor the best, neither the few nor the many, can be held responsible, and which could be properly called the rule by Nobody. Indeed, if we identify tyranny as the government that is not held to give account of itself, rule by Nobody is clearly the most tyrannical of all, since there is no one left who could even be asked to answer for what is being done.

    -- Hannah Arendt, "On Violence"

    [–]kiltrout -2ポイント-1ポイント  (6子コメント)

    I am not ashamed for holding a conviction and hearing the ring of truth in the victims rather than in "changing of the guard" Jake and his wormy defenders. If that makes me a "black and white" type of thinker, so be it. But nothing I've said is remotely of a totalized worldview. It's fucked that you think these accusations are not even related to the accused, so yes, that bit about orthogonality was worthy of a good "freakout." There is no such thing as neutrality when neutrality serves one party's interests. Jake has mounted a defense, and I've judged it as totally unconvincing and offensive. In "our response" they stated their intention was not to discredit anyone, but then, in vouching for Jake's good behavior, they actually did influence people to further distrust the accusers. Offensive and unconvincing, but also disingenuous. Now we can take totalitarian pot shots all day, but from the sound of it Jake seems like a personality cult tyrant and deposing him is going to help everyone at Tor out.

    [–]johannL 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

    You're just stringing words together while sweating pure hatred whenever asked to discuss like an adult. Good luck with that.

    [–]kiltrout 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Ah, so now that I've been as clear and succinct in my views as possible, you can find no meaning at all. Yeah I'm sweatin' hate and I ain't ashamed, bub. Meanwhile, you are filling this entire megathread with multiple page long posts, excursions into unrelated topics, rat traps and diversions, speaking always out of the side of your mouth about universalized, hypothetical situations rather than directly to the matter at hand. Totally cowardly.

    [–]johannL 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

    You start with a straw man about black and white thinking, then after having talked of "Jake and his wormy defenders", you claim you "don't have a totalized worldview". How's that not just stringing words together? If this nonsense is "as succinct as possible" for you, why not try "you're doubleplusungood"? Same signal, less bandwidth wasted.

    The very fact that the accused WOULD have any defender, that any "judge" might not just be a caveman throwing stones, that's what upsets you. Who is "defending Jake"? We are criticizing the lynch mob. That you cannot see that, that time and time again that's gets turned into "rape apologist" and other such stuff, just shows the nature of this shit show.

    Yeah I'm sweatin' hate and I ain't ashamed, bub.

    That's great for you. At the end of all your projection you will still only find yourself though.

    Meanwhile, you are filling this entire megathread with multiple page long posts

    Yes, and? Address their content or stop spamming.

    excursions into unrelated topics,

    Says the clown who just confirmed how proud he is of that stuff about "orthogonal", or "sweatin hate"? Awww. You see me using the word hypocritical as a description for your comments, but I don't think you have the faintest idea what it means.

    speaking always out of the side of your mouth about universalized, hypothetical situations rather than directly to the matter at hand

    Always? Heh. No, additionally, and that's simply because I can hardly do more than pester people who don't answer questions 2-3 times. And you cannot address the small, "direct" things that might be more your speed either, either, you jump from there to general stuff, except it's shit about "everything is math to you" and other such crap. Even in the post I linked there are unanswered questions left on your plate, so if you want talk about cowardice, don't make me laugh.

    [–]kiltrout 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Hah. It's not a lynch mob, dummy. Calling it that makes it pretty obvious you're siding with Appelbaum, and it's ethically nasty for other, historic reasons. I mean this constant comparison between victims of abuse speaking out in public with crazed racists hanging blacks for fun is way more than enough to show you're far far off here, ethically speaking.

    I don't have the time in the day to follow you down every irrelevant dead end you throw out there. It simply does not matter to me, your personal ideas about debate. Even as you attempt to enforce some stupid rhetorical math, in-line, as if I must react machine-like to every insulting little question, for the sake of your pathetic parochial mode of interpretation, you sting from the comment against your mathematical worldview. Kind of funny.

    It is quite amazing the lengths you've gone to in order to defend Jacob Appelbaum and deny that you are indeed defending him. Why do you need to deny it as if your very person depends upon it?

    [–]indolering 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

    I don't know if I agree with your sentiment. Let's assume someone is falsely accused of sexual harassment or rape, which does happen. In that instance, positive character witnesses serve as a way to lend credibility to the honest party. And given some of the slip ups (i.e. Jill Bähring's corrections) I can understand people who have only seen the positive side of Jake's personality standing up for someone that they believe is innocent.

    In this case, well, I think it's very different. There are multiple, non-anonymous accounts of sexual harassment from credible sources. As more stuff comes out, such testimonials naturally lose their influence.

    [–]kiltrout -5ポイント-4ポイント  (3子コメント)

    No, this is not gooey sentiment and emotion. How about we don't assume the accusations are false to begin with, out of sentiment for the beloved icon of cyberlibertarianism. The accusers are angry, irrational, anonymous, oftentimes taking up tactics you might find impolite or even wrong, and "fishy" as they confront a powerful and popular celebrity who abused them. What would be truly fishy is if it all was done in this way that Appelbaum's defenders seem to generally champion: quiet, without a splash to disturb the surface tension of the man's power and influence, going through a long painful battle in court and so on.

    [–]wu-wei 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Read the fucking page already. Don't just scan it and then regurgitate talking points like some idiot pundit. Read the fucking thing!

    We do not claim to know what happened in precise situations that we were not present for, and we do not want to trivialise and minimise any pain that may have been caused.

    ...

    We stand in solidarity with Jake against the way this is being handled and on the side of justice for all, in hope the truth on all sides will be able to come to light in a rational and constructive manner.

    [–]kiltrout -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Despite the desire to not trivialize or minimize pain of the people whose stories they also cast doubt upon... --do I need to go on, make this point more explicit? I can read, but can you? This is a disingenuous way of talking, some kind of apophasis if you like technical terms.

    [–]indolering -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I agree that they do harm when the accused is guilty and I think Appelbaum is guilty....

    [–]furious_nipples 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Thanks for making this thread /u/rotorcowboy.

    the relevance of these events for this subreddit are arguable

    It may not be relevant to the assigned topic of discussion ("news, questions, opinions and tips about Tor") but it's clearly a topic of interest to a large portion of the community. Even though I'm not following the Appelbaum situation closely, I'm glad you're willing to empathize that this is off-topic pretty much anywhere and here it has probably the closest relevance to the topic.

    I would suggest making this topic sticky, though, as people tend to ignore megathreads if they're not very visible.

    [–]rotorcowboy[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Oh right, forgot about that. Thanks!

    [–]johannL 14ポイント15ポイント  (7子コメント)

    I'm about to hit the bed so I don't have much to say atm, but just so there's something here:

    Also saw this today:

    https://contraspin.co.nz/the-weaponising-of-social-pt1-the-crucifixion-of-ioerror/ (edit: part 2 https://contraspin.co.nz/the-weaponising-of-social-pt-2-stomping-on-ioerrors-grave/ )

    Last not not least, because I'm not sure if I saw this here yet, and "two wrongs don't make a right" applies to all:

    https://blog.cr.yp.to/20160607-dueprocess.html

    Just because (in my absolutely convinced opinion) many things about the attack site/campaign are very fishy and hypocritical, that doesn't mean they're "the bad guys" and anything goes. Just like Appelbaum "being the bad guy" didn't automatically excuse any and all things. It would be great to get this clusterfuck out of the swamp it's in, rather than wrestle others successfully in that swamp, or just drown alongside them, if you know what I mean.

    In the end, it's between Appelbaum and the people he may have genuinely wronged, and between the people who unfairly or even purposefully smeared him (on top of any legitimate things there may be). Maybe criticism, or if you will pressure, is needed to bring people to the table, but bringing people to the table should still be the goal.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/TOR/comments/4mrxrb/jacob_appelbaum_on_twitter_berlin_june_6_2016_in/d3z0uqn

    Is it possible to dial it down from TimetoDieJake to VictimsofJake to a process to actually seek justice for all parties involved, including the continuing work of Tor? Or is the collatoral damage going to just end up being a blip on the timeline of the war on crypto, from a bunch of people who found it more important to escalate their vengeance into international news, than to find a contracted process that worked outside of the courts?

    Obviously they counted on community support. But for a witch hunt. Not for a moot.

    Doesn't matter who Jake is, this is going to mess with us, the toxins foul the fishbowl so we can't breathe, and slime what everyone sees looking in.

    [–]AlSweigart -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

    It is important to note that the people behind jacobappelbaum.net have stated they don't run any twitter accounts for the site. Given the gratuitous of TimeToDieJake name, it's obviously a troll account to malign the accusers.

    [–]johannL 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    That makes about as much sense as Appelbaum saying he didn't do it, and that obviously making the stories all false. Believe the victim, right? Right.

    Of course they would say they're not associated with that account. But how does that mesh with the Twitter account going up before the site? Or hey, how does it mesh with tweeting about there being 4 stories before those appeared on the site, as that doc on cryptome claims?

    Also, it's not like the site itself isn't out for total destruction as "rapist, plagiarist, sociopath, no more questions". So the Twitter account complete with guillotine pic is no more petty or deranged, it's just this tricky legal thing, things that can be read as death threats get more attention from the cops more quickly. Phrases like "he could go to Siberia for all I care" are always legal, TimeToDieJake may not be.

    I guess the graffiti on his appartment is also to smear the lynch mob, since anybody who would do that can't be inspired by any of this, right? This isn't victim blaming because he's not a victim, he's a rapist.

    What other aspects of this lynch mob would you like to wash your hands of? I think you're obviously in denial, and it's also "important to note" that you more or less vouched for that site, is it fits the Appelbaum you know -- but didn't answer my questions regarding the plagiarism claim. Nor did anyone anywhere. And you know what the really fucked up thing is? That will remain fucked up even when it finally does get backed up or retracted. That's letting a whole lot of time pass for no good reason anyone was able to tell me.

    [–]indolering 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

    probably the primer on the whole thing:

    This gets deep into the details yet glosses over a pattern of behavior by Appelbaum. It even chooses to downplay the public rape of an unconscious woman by calling it "sexual assault".

    Just because (in my absolutely convinced opinion) many things about the attack site/campaign are very fishy and hypocritical

    What in the hell would motivate core Tor developers to come out publicly against a colleague like this?

    In the end, it's between Appelbaum and the people he may have genuinely wronged, and between the people who unfairly or even purposefully smeared him (on top of any legitimate things there may be).

    In the end it's a question of whether Appelbaum raped women. Sadly, most rape allegations are reduced to he said/she said disputes, but there was a pattern of sexual and professional misconduct by Appelbaum. And "the people who unfairly or even purposefully smeared him" consist of the Tor community. Have so much as edited the Tor wiki or contributed to a bug report?

    Please take your crusade against "social justice warriors" and conspiracy theories somewhere else.

    [–]Bitterestvet 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    funny that none of them appear to intend to take any of this to the authorities. I guess the CIA would need to pay them more for perjury.

    [–]qubedView 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

    This gets deep into the details yet glosses over a pattern of behavior by Appelbaum. It even chooses to downplay the public rape of an unconscious woman by calling it "sexual assault".

    What are you talking about? Jill Bähring? According to her, they were involved at the time and the touching was both welcomed and reciprocated.

    [–]indolering 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Isis Agora Lovecruft came out publicly with this story:

    I woke up very confused and startled because my pants were unzipped and Jake’s arm was wrapped around me, his hands in my underwear and he was rubbing my clit and rimming the edges of my vagina.

    The worst story comes from River, who has chosen to remain anonymous but is known to both Isis and Alison Macrina:

    I was intoxicated and not thinking clearly, and it took me a long time to realize that Jacob was going down on me, in the living room, in front of everyone. I told him that I didn't want to do that, and he stopped, but I don't remember what happened directly after, except that he kept touching me. The next thing I realized was that one of his friends in the room was touching me instead of Jacob, and Jacob told me to go down on his friend. I asked them to stop, however, all of this had a really long delayed effect because I was under the influence. I remember that his friend did stop touching me when I asked him to, but then I blacked out, and when I came back into consciousness, Jacob was having sex with me in the living room with his friends watching.

    [–]johannL 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

    This gets deep into the details yet glosses over a pattern of behavior by Appelbaum.

    In what way? It's mostly a factual account of all the various claims, I would assume it's included in that.

    It even chooses to downplay the public rape of an unconscious woman by calling it "sexual assault".

    Okay, and? "chooses to downplay", heh. If you don't mind mere gossip and stuff about "alphabetical order" being blown up to "plagiarizes all the things all the time, even drove someone to suicide with that" by people who are protagonists in this, I don't see why I should mind that by someone talking about it. Make a pull request, open an issue, and then we'll see if that was an oversight or some super sinister "choice".

    What in the hell would motivate core Tor developers to come out publicly against a colleague like this?

    How does taking that at face value make the fishy and hypocritical things less fishy and hypocritical? Having good reason to "do something" doesn't automatically justify anything, or any facet of it, and it's not like raising it in SOME form would not have been cause for a lot of attention. But making some kind of cute "rapist, sociopath, plagiarist" landing page complete with attempts at impersonation and "TimeToDieJake", is not that. And not at least owning that gives it less credibility.

    What the hell would motivate someone to cast an evil eye for minutes at two people being into each other?

    What the hell would make someone say someone even killed themselves because Jake plagiarized them, but "that's not my story to tell"? I mean, people didn't even accept that about Aaron, while it was fucked up what was done to him, you can't just pin something like suicide on a single cause. But plagiarism?

    In the end it's a question of whether Appelbaum raped women.

    Only if all you care about is calling Appelbaum "rapist". They're people, individuals, and each of them aren't done justice by that, nor is Appelbaum. Also, the question about the plagiarism claims, and the question why it gets no real answers.

    Sadly, most rape allegations are reduced to he said/she said disputes, but there was a pattern of sexual and professional misconduct by Appelbaum.

    Wait, did you just chose to downplay it by calling it sexual and professional misconduct?

    Yes, exactly because this stuff cannot also be simply be dismissed, it's not acceptable to just mix it up into one huge smear website, mix it with plagiarism claims without substantiating them. That's using a grain of truth -- and those "grains" are real people who have been hurt -- to sell a bowl of toxic stuff.

    And is that professional misconduct in relation to the plagiarism accusation, which is totally orthogonal to the rape accusation (again, like above: unless all you care about is to call Appelbaum a "bad person"), or do you mean the rape accusation?

    Please take your crusade against "social justice warriors" and conspiracy theories somewhere else.

    Oh, right, just like "rapist, sociopath, plagiarist", that's all you need, an ad-hominem that can't even be falsified. I'm not asking you to be my friend, I made factual criticisms and posed factual questions. So take that sophistry somewhere else.