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The most confused man in America (i.redd.it)

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[–]QuarterOztoFreedom 788ポイント789ポイント  (732子コメント)

I think it is odd because the Confederacy was a movement to preserve slavery, and the majority of confederate supporters today are racist.

Edit: I can't believe this is up for debate. The Confederacy supported slavery and all the racist rhetoric involved. This is like a Jew holding up a swastika flag.

[–]triplefastaction 65ポイント66ポイント  (2子コメント)

Some of us grew up on Dukes of Hazard.

[–]EndDays 62ポイント63ポイント  (12子コメント)

The confederate flag is referred to as the 'rebel' flag, not the 'boy, I sure wish we had slaves again' flag. Now, certainly, there may be some crossover there, but the flag represents to southerns a cultural heritage of being rebellious and independent, and being willing to fight for their land and family. The idea that every southerner in the confederate army was a black hating slave owner dehumanizes the soldiers, and the idea that blacks can't identify with a flag that, in the region where the flag is celebrated, represents the aforementioned qualities, is just another example of privileged whites removing black agency.

[–]Syrdon [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The flag existed in support of racism. It's history was racist at creation, racist during its use, fell out of favor for a while and was revived in support of more racism in the fifties and sixties.

Bury your head in the sand all you want, that flag is a symbol of racism and has been for so long that it's not going to stop being one.

[–]tripletstate [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

That flag only surfaced again during the anti-civil rights moment.

[–]thtgyovrthr 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

the flag represents to southerns a cultural heritage of being rebellious and independent, and being willing to fight for their land and family.

  1. fighting for their land [and their livelihood] entailed fighting for the labor that sustained them. that went threatened [as stated by every southern state involved in the civil war], so yes they did fight. i don't consider this a virtue.

  2. the south did rebel quite a bit [not exclusively, but a whole lot uglier] in the civil rights era, during which that flag saw more use than it did during the civil war, in protest of integration and such.

コメントをもっと表示する (9 返事)

    [–]Pwnby 33ポイント34ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Strange. How did you meet the majority of Confederate supporters to learn their opinions?

    [–]Yumm_Yumm_the_Man 61ポイント62ポイント  (38子コメント)

    Well, those are two assertions. The first one I mostly agree with. The second one is an incredibly obnoxious assertion. There are certainly people who fly the Confederate flag who are racist, and there are certainly people who fly the Confederate flag to harken to a southern ideology independent of race relations.

    Most of the folks I've discussed this issue with talk about southern traditions and attitudes, which despite popular belief do not usually revolve around skin pigmentation. To most of those I've talked with, the flag is more about the shared Southern heritage of being good neighbors, gracious hosts, enjoying the outdoors, self reliance and responsibility to family and friends, a more relaxed attitude compared to people in the north or people in urban environments (you can tell by the way folks drive).

    Now, before you downvote this into oblivion, I should say that the reason I was talking to these folks about the Confederate Flag is that these folks are generally conservative Republicans (like myself). I pointed out that historically, that flag is associated with the Democratic party and collectivism, after all it was the southern Democrats that withdraw from the union prior to the Republican Lincoln's inauguration. I pointed out that the militant offshoot of the Democratic party utilized that very flag to try and tie Southern Heritage with KKK racism (with a fair degree of success). The reason people like you associate that flag with racism is also the same reason many southerners do not, the KKK tried to tie the flag that represented heritage to southerners to the racist policies of the Democratic party.

    [–]thtgyovrthr 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

    the militant offshoot of the Democratic party utilized that very flag to try and tie Southern Heritage with KKK racism (with a fair degree of success)

    a great degree of success. that flag was used more in protest of integration than it was in the civil war.

    the flag that represented heritage to southerners to the racist policies of the Democratic party.

    let's never forget the footnote stating that the southern strategy brought about an ideological switch making "democratic party" in the context mean something entirely different than it means in 2016.

    [–]RoseEsque [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

    To most of those I've talked with, the flag is more about the shared Southern heritage of being good neighbors, gracious hosts, enjoying the outdoors, self reliance and responsibility to family and friends, a more relaxed attitude compared to people in the north or people in urban environments (you can tell by the way folks drive).

    You forgot fried food.

    [–]n3tm4n [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    No matter how nicely and sincerely you and your circle of friends couch your individual beliefs and pride about said confederate battle flag representing Southern Heritage and beliefs, the fact remains and will continue to remain that, to most people of this country, that flag is a symbol of the south trying to separate from the union so that they can continue to have the states' rights to have slavery, and later, a symbol of the awful groups like the KKK who plastered it everywhere. It cannot be just hand-waved away to say slavery was independent of race relations. In the same vein, that flag can't be pigeon-holed to only be associated with the "southern Democratic Party and collectivism", no matter how much you desire it to be. Historically, that flag is associated waaaay more with the Confederacy (it was a battle flag during the confederacy first, and then part of the second and third flags of the Confederate States), and thus with slavery by most people in this country.

    It may be a simple symbol of southern pride to you and your sphere of conservative Republicans, but it is abhorrent symbol of slavery and, thus, racism to everyone else, including many conservative Republicans that I also call friends. So when someone says that "the majority of confederate supporters today are racist", it's because they see your response as incredible mental gymnastics to ignore that white race supremacy and slavery is never symbolized by this flag, only Southern Heritage. You may not think that is racist in and of itself, but it is, at the very least, burying your head to the symbolism that this flag represents to most of the country. So, maybe it's time for the Southern Heritage crowd to embrace a different symbol than the so obviously controversial one as the confederate flag. I vote for the Mint Julep.

    コメントをもっと表示する (20 返事)

      [–]joephus420 343ポイント344ポイント  (532子コメント)

      Or he sees the flag as simply representing "the south" and he is simply displaying his pride in being from the south.

      [–]cdimeo 493ポイント494ポイント  (351子コメント)

      Which is where his confusion would be on full display, because he's have been duped into believing that bag of shit.

      [–]BitchesLoveCoffee 88ポイント89ポイント  (58子コメント)

      Have you been to the south? There's lots of reasons to be proud of being from here.

      [–]Kerbologna 72ポイント73ポイント  (12子コメント)

      People on the internet that have never been below the Mason-Dixon Line assure me that the Stars and Bars is incredibly racist, and the only reason I would dispute that is because I, myself, am a huge racistbigot.

      [–]Iohannesfactotum 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

      That's not the Stars and Bars, that's the battle flag of Lee's Army of North Virginia.

      [–]deadbeatsummers 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

      I mean, I live down here, and for the most part it is.

      [–]mr_pleco [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      No no, it's not racist if you say it's not racist. That's the key. Just say "I'm not racist but..." in front of all the white supremacist things you say and then nobody can say you're racist.

      [–]FantasiainFminor 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I live 60 miles from the Confederate capital.

      I can tell you that the Stars and Bars is incredibly racist.

      (On the other hand, if you dispute that, I won't presume to tell you why. You could be "a huge racistbigot" or just never read any of the history. I don't know you and I won't pretend to know you.)

      [–]aetius476 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      People on the internet that have never been below the Mason-Dixon Line assure me that the Stars and Bars is incredibly racist, and the only reason I would dispute that is because I, myself, am a huge racistbigot.

      The Stars and Bars is a completely different flag. But please continue on about how everyone else is ignorant.

      コメントをもっと表示する (7 返事)

        [–]mr_pleco 10ポイント11ポイント  (15子コメント)

        There's lots of reasons to be proud of being from here.

        I'm from the south. There's so many things to be proud of that having a massive southern circle-jerk over the flag representing southern pride is the most stupid thing I can think of.

        Like, out of all your options, you choose that flag to represent your southern pride? At least choose a symbol that doesn't make you out to be a massive racist asshole, like fried chicken or football.

        Saying the confederate flag represents southern pride is about as clever as an edgy 12 year old talking about how the swastika is ok to wave around "with pride" because it's really a hindu fertility symbol or whatever.

        [–]tanhan27 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

        I live in the south. We have good BBQ good fried chicken but other than that it's just football, air conditioning, racism, obesity and poverty.

        コメントをもっと表示する (26 返事)

          [–]joephus420 450ポイント451ポイント  (259子コメント)

          A.K.A. - Black man in the south can only believe what the white man from the north tells him to believe!

          [–]speakingcraniums 272ポイント273ポイント  (145子コメント)

          More like most any educated person isnt going to bend over backwards to appeal to culture that was literally built on the backs of their enslaved ancestors.

          But hey sadomasochism is a thing, and everyone is an individual.

          [–]paper_liger 79ポイント80ポイント  (4子コメント)

          Western culture as a whole owes a great debt to philosophies that came from Greece and Rome. Literally built on the backs of slaves.

          Yes, I'm glad the south lost, I'm glad that the US was forced to take their basic tenets to their logical conclusion and apply it to all people, I'm glad that civil rights is a thing. I would never fly the traitors flag myself, they were wrong and they lost. But he's the one who gets to decide what that flag means to him.

          But by all means keep getting offended on other peoples behalf, it's not paternalistic at all.

          [–]otis_reading 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

          No, no, no....I have barbarian German and English ancestry. I shall never submit to my Greek and Roman oppressors. Fuck Plato!!!!!

          [–]speakingcraniums 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

          For what it's worth. The barbarians already got their revenge when they sacked and looted rome a few dozen times, taking Roman slaves as revenge.

          Same thing happened to Sparta and Athens. People tend to hold a grudge when they are enslaved.

          コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

            [–]ghastlyactions 85ポイント86ポイント  (14子コメント)

            You're kind of overlooking... really, almost all of human history.

            The majority of people actually bend over backwards to appeal to a culture that was literally built on the backs of their enslaved ancestors. Religious, serfdom, outright slavery, it doesn't matter.

            [–]InsufficientClone 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

            But.....that doesn't fit into my political agenda this year!

            [–]Idrinkmonet 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Shh, don't be racist.

            /s

            コメントをもっと表示する (11 返事)

              [–]RaunchyFeet 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

              More like most any educated person isnt going to bend over backwards to appeal to culture that was literally built on the backs of their enslaved ancestors.

              When Egypt shows off their pyramid, I'm like, "eww get that monument to slavery out of there!" That thing has no place in a modern society and nobody should be proud of it!

              [–]imlikeasir 182ポイント183ポイント  (76子コメント)

              Or maybe he's not trying to appeal. Maybe he is educated. You don't know this man. He may just be acting ironic, or he might support the south. Who cares.

              [–]Tfish 123ポイント124ポイント  (69子コメント)

              Supporting "the south" with a confederate flag is like supporting Germany with a swastika. You can make the case that you're just talking about pride, or history, or whatever but you can't tell me you'd see a guy waving a swastika flag around and think "well he clearly just has a lot of pride for his heritage and that's all that symbol really means."

              [–]jetpacksforall 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

              I've heard of Jews for Jesus, but Jews for Nazis is a whole other kettle of fish.

              [–]Thelastofthree -3ポイント-2ポイント  (46子コメント)

              Except that the confederacy was about more than just enslavement. Also on top of that if the south hadn't seceded from the Union, slavery would have continued to be legal in the south for years to come because many in Washington had no plan to do away with it/lacked the support. The real major cause of the Civil war brwaking out was the election of Abraham Lincoln in which no a single Southern Electoral college vote was adwarded to him. That would be like if Hillary won by not getting a single swing atate or any red states, it wouldn't happen today and it highlighted how the balance of power within the US had shifted dramatically to the north. It was so dramatic that many in the south believed their very life was in jeopardy, which did rely on slavery, but many other aspects like the rugged individualism, history of well trained militia, and many other examples.

              The Civil War, and the Confederate Battleflag for that matter, are very complicated issues and boiling them down to mean either slavery or southern culture is just plain moronic. It highlights the lack of critical thinking on many peoples thought because they are not able to put thenselves in another shoes, and instead default to "he's racist or stupid"

              You bring up the swastika, do you know that it is still a powerful image in India because of it's close ties to Indian relgions? Maybe symbols don't have singular means like you think.

              [–]wngmv [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

              The Indian swastika was pointed at the other direction. Nazi swastika was one of its own.

              [–]jetpacksforall 10ポイント11ポイント  (4子コメント)

              The real major cause of the Civil war brwaking out was the election of Abraham Lincoln in which no a single Southern Electoral college vote was adwarded to him.

              ....Because Lincoln opposed the expansion of slavery into new states and territories.

              [–]mithrasinvictus [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

              And the Nazi swastika wasn't exclusively about exterminating the Jewish race. But all that other stuff is inconsiderable now because of the genocide. And the same thing goes for that symbol of slavery.

              [–]NoseDragon 9ポイント10ポイント  (8子コメント)

              Ah, revisionist history at its finest!

              The Civil War was fought because of slavery. Slavery is specifically mentioned in the succession speeches of many states.

              [–]JusticePrevails_ 3ポイント4ポイント  (16子コメント)

              The real major cause of the Civil war breaking out was the election of Abraham Lincoln in which no a single Southern Electoral college vote was adwarded to him.

              Interesting point but the real cause of the war was a tariff that inflated the price of southern goods to protect northern manufacturing wages. The war was about money, not slavery. Protecting that money just so happened to involve protecting slavery; i.e profit margins.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morrill_Tariff

              The fact that most Southern families owned no slaves means little to those that seek simply to feel superior to those whom they know nothing about.

              [–]BuccoBruce 6ポイント7ポイント  (8子コメント)

              Most Germans during the 30s and 40s didn't gas the Jews either, doesn't make us forget the Holocaust though.

              [–]Thelastofthree 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

              Yes sure, Abraham Lincoln's landslide victory had nothing to do with it, and a tariff enacted under his predecessor was the true cause. /s

              As i said, there are many causes to why the south seceded, but the main cause still remains the election of Lincoln. If it truely was the tariff that you imply it was, why did it get enacted by a democrat president, and why did the southern states remain in the union after it was made into law? Why did the secession happen after Lincoln's election and not after this Tariffs ratification?

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                  [–]Mxblinkday -2ポイント-1ポイント  (4子コメント)

                  The Swastika was related to the Nazi Party not Germany, if my memory is correct.

                  [–]TheBoiledHam 19ポイント20ポイント  (2子コメント)

                  Which is why it is an apt comparison. The Confederate flag is associated with the south but represents the desire to continue the institution of slavery. It isn't a 1:1 comparison but it is damn near close.

                  [–]Mxblinkday 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                  It was more of the SS who was into exterminating everyone and keeping the Aryan race pure than the Nazis. my history is a little rusty

                  I get what you're saying but I don't think that it's a good comparison.

                  [–]NoseDragon 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  Yeah, and that version of the confederate flag was a random battle flag used by one specific group of soldiers until the KKK got a hold of it about 80 years later.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America\

                  The 1948 Dixiecrat political party extensively used Confederate symbols, including the battle flag, and contributed to the flag's post-World War II re-popularization.[12] According to historian John Coski, segregationists utilized Confederate symbols as both they and the Confederates had similar goals, that is, opposition to any "change the south's racial status quo." As a result, Coski stated that "There could be no more fitting opposition" to desegregation "than the Confederate battle flag. Although segregationists lost their battle and their cause was discredited, attitudes of white supremacy live on."

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_display_of_the_Confederate_flag#Political_groups

                  コメントをもっと表示する (16 返事)

                    [–]goodnames679 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    It's possible he doesn't actually support the confederate flag but he supports the free speech to be able to use it.

                    That was my interpretation, anyways.

                    [–]daimposter 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._K._Edgerton

                    In 2009, Edgerton threatened a lawsuit regarding newly elected Asheville City Council Member Cecil Bothwell, on the basis that Bothwell's atheism rendered him ineligible to serve in North Carolina public office.[2] The Supreme Court has already held invalid religious affirmations required for public office, and the United States Constitution states in the last clause of Article VI that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.”

                    Not exactly a very reasonable person. Guy is fucked up.

                    コメントをもっと表示する (4 返事)

                      [–]obama_loves_nsa 31ポイント32ポイント  (10子コメント)

                      1.6% of people in the USA had slaves at its peak. You keep making it out though to being every white person had a million slaves that built entire pyramids under threat of death. Whatever pushes your narrative of divide and conquer.

                      [–]bandalooper 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      The 1860 census enumerated 4 million slaves or 12.6% of the population.

                      [–]shifter2009 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

                      The Pyramids weren't built by slaves. http://www.usnews.com/science/articles/2010/01/12/egypt-new-find-shows-slaves-didnt-build-pyramids

                      [–]speakingcraniums 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      Look at three percentage of the deep south that was slaves (I'll save you a Google search and just tell you it was 30-50%percent of the population, depending on the state)

                      [–]Thelastofthree 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      And the majority of the slaves were owned by the one percent in the south. Massive plantations with hundreds to thousands of slaves was far from the norm in Southern life. Most families had no slaves, and the majority of them that had any slaves had a few at most. It's just like today where the people at the top own a lot, then the people in the middle owned a little, and the people at the bottom owned nothing. For the poorest southerns Slavery at least allowed them to have a social class to be above, and also the plantation master generally tried to endear themselves to the locals poor as a way to create familiarity ties as well as keep them in check.

                      コメントをもっと表示する (4 返事)

                        [–]wormdangler 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

                        Just admit it, you have bent so far backwards to avoid being called racist, that you have done a complete sommersault and ended up more racist than those you oppose.

                        [–]LordoftheBanter 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        I wave a Union flag despite being of Irish ancestry.

                        [–]clintonexpress 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        By holding that flag and holding a sign that says "police lives matter", he's possibly appealing to any racist Southerners who think all black people are criminals, or that all Americans should divide themselves along racial lines.

                        Buy hey, why would any intelligent person try to tone down race hatred, when everyone knows it was the Confederate flag that shot 9 people at a church in Charleston? /s

                        [–]Mczwiz [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                        Why are we assuming his ancestors were slaves?

                        [–]purplesascwatch [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                        I live in the south and for whatever reason tons of people love their confederate flags, even black people, and if you tell them it's racist they'll say "it's not about slavery it's about the south and the culture" and what not, and most of these people I met are not racist, in fact I've met plenty of very friendly people who just so happen to love their confederate flag, if it means something good to them, why take it away? If it makes them feel happy and they're proud to be from the south, why is it okay to berate them?

                        [–]Sybre [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

                        You understand black people had slaves as well?

                        [–]shivore 3ポイント4ポイント  (8子コメント)

                        The culture was in no way built on the back of slavery, be careful your ignorance is showing.

                        The economy yes, the culture though very much so was not. The culture is worth remembering and even celebrating, whether you are black or white.

                        [–]TedTheGreek_Atheos 17ポイント18ポイント  (6子コメント)

                        Are you sure about that?

                        Our new government is founded upon exactly [this] idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.

                        -Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens

                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_Speech

                        Who's ignorance is showing?

                        コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                          [–]JustineRodgers 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          All culture is built on the material foundations of society: the means and methods of production, and the division of labor.

                          Edit: that said the "culture built on slavery" trope is incomplete. I would resist the efforts by certain "left" or "liberal" academics to use it as a platform to renounce the revolution and the liberal Enlightenment principles that animated it.

                          コメントをもっと表示する (9 返事)

                            [–]Na3s 19ポイント20ポイント  (1子コメント)

                            Yea that's what he's saying, he's not saying the facts about the origins of the confederate flag. The fact that the only reason the Confederate flag exists is because the south wanted to continue slavery so they started a war with the north. The same north that was sheltering freed and runaway slaves from the confederate south that was trying to enslave them. So I don't know what type of insane backwards history somebody spoonfed you but I suggest you open up a book and start reading.

                            [–]robb338 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            Ever heard of the "not in my back yard" movement in the north?

                            [–]cdimeo 43ポイント44ポイント  (63子コメント)

                            It's not the northern white man's fault that southern people like to lie about their own history or pretend certain aspects of it don't exist.

                            [–]joephus420 33ポイント34ポイント  (59子コメント)

                            It is the northern white man's fault not realizing that symbols take different meaning over time, and for letting their prevalent slow-boiling style of racism make them assume that these people don't know their own history.

                            [–]JessLRT 100ポイント101ポイント  (20子コメント)

                            Southerner here. They really don't know their history. Most people I know are in complete denial that the Civil War was fought over slavery.

                            [–]ThisLookInfectedToYa 65ポイント66ポイント  (7子コメント)

                            It was about states rights! to keep slavery

                            [–]pickelsurprise [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

                            This is really where I draw the line. I'm not going to claim that literally everything the Confederacy stood for was 100% evil and wrong, but you can't claim to be all about personal freedoms and state's rights when one of those rights is the right to own another person. I don't care how good the rest of your shit is, the second any part of you supports slavery, you're going down.

                            [–]Titty_McTitface 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                            That's......... Still about states rights.

                            It could have been about states rights to butter the underside of bread and it would still also have been about states rights, in addition to which side of bread can be buttered.

                            The fuck is wrong with all of you that you can't even admit that the bloodiest war fought on US soil was far more complex than a single issue.

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                                [–]redrobot5050 [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

                                Yeah, the Church shooter flying the confederate flag was doing it merely because he was proud of his white South Carolinian heritage. Same with the Angola flag he posed with.

                                With these Olympic level gymnastics, can we also say a burning cross is just a cool way of advertising "I want a Pokestop here so I can catch a Charizard."

                                [–]SaltyBabe 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                My dads entire side of the family is from the Deep South. Denial is their drug of choice. Just because you personally may feel that a symbol means something specific, and different to you, doesn't mean that's not the case for everyone. I personally find civil war slavery denial to be abhorrent and find that people flying this flag is merely a symptom. I do feel the governments stance to remove it from public buildings was the right choice and leaving private citizens to proudly wave their ignorance is a happy medium of both sides of the "debate".

                                [–]superLean 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                Yeah, learn the history! Like how this flag was cemented as a symbol of racism in the 50s/60s when it resurged and became widely popular thanks to the Dixiecrats using it for their racist segregationist purposes. This "totally not racist, it's just heritage" nonsense is a very recent phenomena.

                                Sure, you can try to reinterpret the flag to mean something else, that's your prerogative. You're also opening yourself up to being mocked though, that's our prerogative. Same thing would happen if it was the Nazi flag instead of this flag of sedition.

                                [–]joephus420 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                It is recent phenomena, no one is saying it isn't. Just becuase its recent doesn't make it nonsense.

                                [–]superLean 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                It's peoples right to fly it or interpret it however they want. There will always be people that remember and don't like its history, though.

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                                  [–]c010rb1indusa 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                  I'm sure that's why the super conservative governor South Carolina had it removed from the Capitol building last year.

                                  [–]joephus420 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                  And how does that effect the beliefs of other people?

                                  [–]c010rb1indusa 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                  That's irrelevant I'm just pointing out that in 2016, even to a super conservative GOP governor where the flag is a political issue, she still thought taking it down was the right thing to do because it clearly was not just a symbol of southern pride. If you're proud of where you are from, fly your state flag. Not the flag of the confederacy.

                                  [–]joephus420 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                  It is totally relevant, we are talking about the beliefs of this person and crap load of people like him.

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                                    [–]oxymo 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                    You think racism didn't exist in the north?

                                    [–]louky 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                    Didn't? There's shitloads of racist Yankee bastará.

                                    [–]bliess 16ポイント17ポイント  (14子コメント)

                                    A black man in the south can believe the earth is flat. If a white northerner tells him the earth is a sphere is he being told what to believe?

                                    Similarly if anyone white/yellow/brown/green from the north, south, east or west tells a black man from the south that the confederate flag represents slavery he is not being told what to believe. These are just facts.

                                    [–]joephus420 34ポイント35ポイント  (13子コメント)

                                    The fault in your logic is that you think symbolism is objective.

                                    [–]bliess 10ポイント11ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                    Of course all symbolism is objective in theory, but if I put Pedobear on a flag it's not going to symbolize Petroleum Exploration and Development Operations (P.E.D.O.) as much as I try to ram it down everyone's throats.

                                    [–]Archangel_117 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                    It absolutely would for at least one person; you. And if you convince one friend that that's what it represents, then by definition it will be what it means for him too. Then a third, and a fourth etc. This is literally how symbols and meanings of symbols work. A bunch of color on a logo/design/flag doesn't inherently mean anything to anyone, it's just a bunch of paint/dye on a canvas/cloth. It's what each individual person sees from that particular combination of colors in that particular design that determines what it means to them. And, if a number of people who have decided for themselves what a particular symbol means to them end up with a common meaning, then that group can absolutely circulate that symbol among themselves with the joint understanding of what it means to them, regardless of what anyone outside that circle thinks. It's no different then playfully slugging your buddy in the shoulder when you see him, or calling one of your friends an asshole as a term of endearment. These are things you wouldn't do to/call a stranger who wouldn't understand how you meant it, but you also wouldn't expect them to.

                                    Some "symbol communities" get large enough that millions of people are in them, and each individual person in that group has the understanding of what that symbol means to them. To a great many southerners, the rebel flag means nothing more than southern pride. There is no club card you have to get punched saying you're a racist shitbag that loves the idea of slavery before you can decide for yourself and yourself alone what the flag means to you. It just so happens that a huge number of non-racist people have decided to not see it as a symbol of slavery, regardless of its history.

                                    That is not to say there aren't people that still see it as a symbol of slavery, and there is likewise nothing at all wrong with that. Like I said, each individual person gets to decide what any symbol means to them. But just know that the vast majority of people that fly or display the rebel flag don't do it for the purpose of showing everyone they support slavery/racism, because it's not for them. They are flying/displaying it as part of their own "symbol community" within which it is understood that it is seen as a symbol of southern pride, and TODAY'S southern culture, and nothing more.

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                                      [–]socokid 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                      And what does that flag symbolize, then?

                                      A Southern heritage that was defined by slavery? Oh goodie...

                                      [–]joephus420 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                      To you it mean that. To others, include mostly likely the guy in the picture, its southern heritage defined by its art, music, food, hospitality.

                                      [–]Tfish 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                      That's why I can't understand why anyone had a problem with my grandpa wanting to have a big swastika on his tomb stone. He just wanted to celebrate all the good times he had under that symbol as well as his proud heritage. Nobody else could separate it from the terrible things it was explicitly created to represent.

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                                          [–]TheBallsackIsBack 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          This is something about Reddit that seriously pisses me off

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                                            [–]tttggg333 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                            And why do you believe it's racist? Because of Dylan roof? How come when a white kid commits a terrorist act, all southern people have to give up their general "southern pride" flag. But when a black or a Muslim commits a terrorist act, the "motives are unclear" and "we can't blame it on BLM bc they're unorganized!"

                                            Why is ok to socially ban the confederate flag but not the Koran or BLM flags/shirts?

                                            [–]oxymo 15ポイント16ポイント  (20子コメント)

                                            Confederate battle flag becomes symbol of the South. Southern people fly flag to symbolize being from the South. Hate groups adopt Southern flag. Southerners that only fly flag to symbolize being from the south are now evil racist.

                                            It's just a flag that means you are from the south.

                                            Shut up you racist! What you believe is wrong! You don't know what's good for you!

                                            Poor white southerners, the only people that can't have any heritage or culture.

                                            Y'all motherfuckers need to get your head out of your ass.

                                            [–]KingPellinore 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                            No one in the South (or North for that matter) cared about the flag after the Civil War until it became a symbol of protest against desegregation in the 1960s.

                                            [–]AcousticDan 10ポイント11ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                            Confederate battle flag becomes symbol of the South. Southern people fly flag to symbolize being from the South. Hate groups adopt Southern flag. Southerners that only fly flag to symbolize being from the south are now evil racist.

                                            I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, or if you're just dumb.

                                            The Confederate flag wasn't adopted by hate groups, it was created by one giant hate group.

                                            [–]purdueracer78 [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

                                            That's not the confederate flag, that's one of their battle flags.

                                            [–]bigoldgeek 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                            Yeah, back that bus up and ask why that flag "becomes" the symbol of the South.

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                                              [–]Crash15 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              yeah how dare he show pride in where he lives

                                              get over yourself

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                                                [–]TouchDownBurrito 26ポイント27ポイント  (15子コメント)

                                                The flag he is holding is not even the confederate flag, this is the flag of the CSA..svg)

                                                [–]Meihem76 50ポイント51ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                Brit here, this will always and forever be The Dukes of Hazzard flag.

                                                I refuse to believe it has any context outside of that TV show.

                                                [–]Godamncommiebastards 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                It doesn't

                                                The actual BFV didn't have those vibrant colors, and it sure as hell wasn't painted onto a charger

                                                [–]Working_Lurking 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAKksqKR3pI

                                                [–]dinosaursandsluts 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4e/Flag_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America_%281865%29.svg/1920px-Flag_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America_%281865%29.svg.png

                                                This was the final, real version. The one that is most iconic was used as a battle flag and is not the actual national flag.

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                                                  [–]xFiction 55ポイント56ポイント  (96子コメント)

                                                  Regardless of how he sees it, that's the Virginia battle flag. Carried into the battle where people died to preserve slavery and the king cotton trade in the south.

                                                  I could see the North Korean flag as a symbol of hunger and put it up everywhere, that makes me wrong, not creative.

                                                  [–]RedditIsDumb4You 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                  If you think slaves were freed because the North saw blacks as equals boy howdy do you need to re read history books.

                                                  [–]sock2828 24ポイント25ポイント  (51子コメント)

                                                  It's not that simple.

                                                  You can't tell a culture that their flag doesn't mean something to some people other than "slavery is good!" who still remembers when people who didn't give a fuck about slavery and the war, who just wanted to have a peaceful life and safety for their family had their lives snuffed out.

                                                  "Until we can repopulate Georgia it is useless to occupy it, but utter destruction of its roads, houses, and people will cripple their military resources. By attempting to hold the roads we will lose a thousand men monthly and will gain no result. I can make the march and make Georgia howl. We have over 8,000 cattle and 3,000,000 pounds of bread but no corn, but we can forage the interior of the state.

                                                  W.T. Sherman"

                                                  You can't fuckin tell the south to stop using their flag when those kinds things happened at the hands of the north.

                                                  Especially when the flag only became so heavily associated with racism relatively recently.

                                                  [–]stellarfury [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                  You can't fuckin tell the south to stop using their flag when those kinds things happened at the hands of the north.

                                                  Hey, turns out if you start a war with someone, they wage war on you. Who knew?

                                                  [–]Syrdon [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                  The flag existed in support of racism. It's history was racist at creation, racist during its use, fell out of favor for a while and was revived in support of more racism in the fifties and sixties.

                                                  Bury your head in the sand all you want, that flag is a symbol of racism and has been for so long that it's not going to stop being one.

                                                  [–]xFiction 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                  Also that's not true at all with the 1950's thing. It got the spotlight around the age of the civil rights movement. That doesn't mean it wasn't there before, just means it wasn't in the spotlight.

                                                  [–]AcousticDan 4ポイント5ポイント  (19子コメント)

                                                  Especially when the flag only became so heavily associated with racism relatively recently.

                                                  You've gotta be fucking kidding me here with this bullshit.

                                                  [–]sock2828 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (18子コメント)

                                                  What? It's still seen as just a general "southern pride" symbol by the majority of Americans to this day. As far as I know it's never really been specifically associated with racism itself by the majority of Americans.

                                                  [–]Thallassa 3ポイント4ポイント  (15子コメント)

                                                  I don't know what America you're from, but in the America I live in it's basically universally associated with racism. It wasn't until I came on reddit that I saw anyone arguing otherwise, and even here it's a minority.

                                                  [–]sock2828 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_display_of_the_Confederate_flag#Recent_public_opinion

                                                  "In a national survey in 2015 across all races, 57% of Americans had the opinion that the Confederate flag represented Southern pride rather than racism. A similar poll in 2000 had a nearly identical result of 59%. However, poll results from only the South yielded a completely different result. 75% of Southern whites described the flag as a symbol of pride, while 75% of Southern blacks said the flag represented racism"

                                                  Symbols only mean what you or your social group thinks they mean and everyone in those polls is right about what it symbolizes. But unfortunately we all have to live with each of those definitions that are sometimes at odds with each other or in the process of dying or being born.

                                                  I personally think it's great that people have turned what the KKK resurrected into a more neutral symbol of just southern pride and think it's a shame it's not more neutral in the south and less racial. Then it wouldn't be so contentious and they'd still have a symbol for their unique culture and trauma which seems to be important to a lot of the south.

                                                  [–]Thallassa [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                                                  Thank you for the perspective. I saw that linked below as well (after I posted this comment). I think the part where most black people think it's a racist symbol, even in the south, is telling. But you're right that it could be a really positive symbol if it weren't so contentious. Would it be easier to get everyone to stop using it to represent racism, or easier to find a new symbol for southern pride and the destruction of the civil war?

                                                  [–]sock2828 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                  Possibly easier to make a new one.

                                                  But it can sometimes take a long time or be really hard to get people off of their old habits and behind a replacement symbol that's meant to represent a concept as vague or as ingrained as "southern pride"

                                                  Maybe there's some old one from back during the war floating around somewhere though. That could work.

                                                  The whole clusterfuck with the flag will probably finally all be sorted out one way or another when I'm dead or close to dead though unfortunately.

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                                                        [–]TeamLiveBadass_ 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                        You can't fuckin tell the south to stop using their flag when those kinds things happened at the hands of the north.

                                                        And then they promptly showed their altruistic motives with Jim Crow right?

                                                        [–]sock2828 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                        That doesn't negate the fact that most people didn't fucking want to be involved and that the south experienced trauma as a culture.

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                                                          [–]louky 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                          Most of those soldiers were fighting for their homes, were poor, and didn't own slaves. Hell Lee would have been given leadership of the nothern army if he wasn't so loyal to his state.

                                                          [–]xFiction [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                          Doesn't matter; they supported the cause by way of fighting, same difference.

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                                                            [–]joephus420 -4ポイント-3ポイント  (38子コメント)

                                                            Yeah and over 100 years later people are using it as representation of something else. If this was the late 1800s, or even the 1950s you would have point.

                                                            [–]Thermodynamicness 25ポイント26ポイント  (25子コメント)

                                                            So can I take the Nazi flag, and use it as a representation of peace and goodwill, without suffering opposition?

                                                            [–]The_Serious_Account 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                            In Nepal, sure.

                                                            [–]sock2828 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                            In the right context, like say Nepal, or in the house of a Buddhist then sure.

                                                            Kinda like how the confederate flag can represent southern pride to those who have only primarily had cultural experiences where the flag meant southern pride in their community/family

                                                            [–]joephus420 8ポイント9ポイント  (13子コメント)

                                                            Probably not, but I would suggest you read about a thing called False Equivalency before you try to figure out why.

                                                            [–]MatE-Guy 17ポイント18ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                            Explain how it is different.

                                                            [–]BufferUnderpants 23ポイント24ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                            The flag of one racist regime dedicated to the oppression of an entire race vs another, about 80 years apart. What difference are we supposed to see?

                                                            [–]Calevara 9ポイント10ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                            OK but a false equivalency would require two different situations. Both situations are a flag used in the defense of or in support of something monstrous. Maybe you should read that definition yourself. Claiming logical fallacy is not the same as fact.

                                                            [–]Thermodynamicness 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                            I am aware of false equivalence. It does not relate here. Unless you can explain why.

                                                            [–]S_H_R_O_o_M 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                            http://m.imgur.com/GO9Dl1N

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                                                              [–]Three_Finger_Brown 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                              I couldn't care less, but just devils advocate, you dont see many people trying to bring back the swastika and that was used for hundreds of years with a different meaning before Germany adopted it.

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                                                                [–]drdrizzy13 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                eh it is sort of a southern thing.. I know plenty of black people who don't care about the flag southern ms here

                                                                [–]rustyneuron 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                                Yea but that has nothing to do with black/ police protests.

                                                                [–]M15CH13F 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8_eCl5y2EA#t=29m48s

                                                                [–]Amoxiskull 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                Or he's facing south.

                                                                [–]coalminnow 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                I don't think there was ever a time people didn't see right through this excuse for an argument.

                                                                [–]Captain_0_Captain 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                Yeah! And while we're at it, let's take the swastika back! I mean, it really means peace!

                                                                /s

                                                                You now what you shouldn't take pride in at all? Where you're born. It's one situation you literally had no control over. What-- like its some god given right, and you chose correctly?

                                                                Be proud about the way you did something, or of personal growth, or of positive changes you've affected; or any number of other things-- but to take pride in the backwards culture that you were born into?

                                                                [–]k2t-17 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                Or like where I live in Indiana they claim it as a lifestyle and identify it like country music or budweiser.

                                                                [–]Trityler 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                I think the main reason the flag has stuck around so long after the war is because when looking at it from a purely aesthetic point of view, it has a pretty sweet graphic design for a flag. I think most people, at least the ones that truly see it only as a symbol of southern culture, wouldn't have tried to cling to it so tightly if was a single color with a seal in the middle, or something boring like that. And the longer it stays around, the harder it becomes to throw away.

                                                                As a southerner myself, I think that the best solution was actually suggested by South Park almost 20 years ago. The South needs a new symbol that can represent all of its people. The problem is coming up with a design that tops what we have now.

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                                                                  [–]LegitStrela 14ポイント15ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                  Not exactly. It was a State's right to choose over Slavery. Some preserved (eg Mississippi), other prohibited (eg Georgia).

                                                                  So 75% right, except for Confederate States that prohibited slavery.

                                                                  [–]gorilla_head 23ポイント24ポイント  (13子コメント)

                                                                  In the peak of black slavery in the U.S., 1.4% of White people in the U.S. owned black slaves.

                                                                  In the peak of black slavery in the U.S., 28 percent of free blacks owned slaves.

                                                                  http://www.vice.com/read/hey-v12n5

                                                                  [–]Bigpartyforever 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                  People still think this.

                                                                  [–]Killtrend 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                  You do know that... Democrats were from the south, and republicans were from the north... Right?

                                                                  [–]Randy_Jefferson 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                  that isn't even remotely accurate you bigot

                                                                  [–]MetroA 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                  But remember, lots of southern states already voted out slavery and only 3% were salve owners. With Lincoln winning the election with zero votes form southern states, they felt like they didn't have states rights or representation so SC seceded before Lincoln even took office. After being told they weren't allowed to, many other border states and southern states seceded because they were told they weren't allowed to. The civil war was more about the south wanting more states rights (the right to secede was this in particular) and the north wanting to preserve the union. Lincoln did everything he could to do so. He was hated by the south. Slavery was a part of the civil war no doubt but it wasn't everything. In my opinion, I think it would've gone away naturally within the next 20 or so years. But taking away the Souths only means of labor and money with no replacement would've crippled their economy and way of life. That last thing is just my opinion though. But all in all, the civil war was ultimately fought over states rights, not slavery like Hollywood and the media want you to think.

                                                                  [–]Devanismyname 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                  There were black slavers back in the day. His ancestors could have been black slavers. Don't be prejudizing him you fucking racist.

                                                                  [–]All_I_Am_Is_A_Man -3ポイント-2ポイント  (41子コメント)

                                                                  You tend to forget that a few of the Union states still had slaves during the war. The war was fought for many reasons, not just slavery.

                                                                  [–]diversity_is_racism 25ポイント26ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                  The war was fought for many reasons, not just slavery.

                                                                  The war was fought for states' rights, and slavery was the touchstone issue, just like it would be a big issue now if we demanded that, say, all pickup trucks in the South be confiscated without repayment.

                                                                  The attack on slavery was an attack on the economy of the region, and a dying institution but one in which there was still a lot of money invested.

                                                                  [–]JohnBrownsRevenge 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                  It was the root cause, which all other causes and reasons for war grew from.

                                                                  [–]phunkphreaker 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                  From http://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/feature/causes-of-the-civil-war/

                                                                  What led to the outbreak of the bloodiest conflict in the history of North America?

                                                                  A common explanation is that the Civil War was fought over the moral issue of slavery.

                                                                  In fact, it was the economics of slavery and political control of that system that was central to the conflict.

                                                                  A key issue was states' rights.

                                                                  The Southern states wanted to assert their authority over the federal government so they could abolish federal laws they didn't support, especially laws interfering with the South's right to keep slaves and take them wherever they wished.

                                                                  Another factor was territorial expansion.

                                                                  The South wished to take slavery into the western territories, while the North was committed to keeping them open to white labor alone.

                                                                  Meanwhile, the newly formed Republican party, whose members were strongly opposed to the westward expansion of slavery into new states, was gaining prominence.

                                                                  The election of a Republican, Abraham Lincoln, as President in 1860 sealed the deal. His victory, without a single Southern electoral vote, was a clear signal to the Southern states that they had lost all influence.

                                                                  Feeling excluded from the political system, they turned to the only alternative they believed was left to them: secession, a political decision that led directly to war.

                                                                  [–]PsyduckSexTape 27ポイント28ポイント  (15子コメント)

                                                                  It was about slavery.

                                                                  [–]All_I_Am_Is_A_Man 5ポイント6ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                                                  Among other things

                                                                  [–]Osiris32 27ポイント28ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                                                  But mostly slavery.

                                                                  [–]Spiralyst 7ポイント8ポイント  (6子コメント)

                                                                  But...THE OTHER THINGS!

                                                                  I really have to laugh whenever this comes up. If those other things were so important, we'd still be talking about them in the vein of anything other than "other things".

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                                                                      [–]sprucetrap87 10ポイント11ポイント  (20子コメント)

                                                                      Fought for many reasons... but mostly slavery.

                                                                      [–]All_I_Am_Is_A_Man 8ポイント9ポイント  (19子コメント)

                                                                      Most Southerners didn't even own slaves, it was just the wealthy plantation owners. Most of the south was deeply impoverished.

                                                                      [–]SergeantStapler 15ポイント16ポイント  (15子コメント)

                                                                      Poor people don't start wars.

                                                                      [–]challengederped 1ポイント2ポイント  (11子コメント)

                                                                      Poor people certainly do start wars, examples like Shay's rebellion, the Peasant's revolt, and many, many others.

                                                                      [–]Psyanide13 3ポイント4ポイント  (10子コメント)

                                                                      rebellion

                                                                      revolt

                                                                      Fighting to overthrow a power is one thing, the south was fighting to preserve it's power... to own slaves.

                                                                      [–]challengederped 4ポイント5ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                                                      You know killing an economy is bad news for everyone, right? The reconstruction era for the south was shit because they had to build a whole new economy. Now not only were the slaves poor, but everyone who lived in the south was fucked over.

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                                                                        [–]pres465 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                        True. They still valued the system of slavery, however, and felt the shift of political power (where Virginia and South Carolina dominated politics before and immediately after the Revolution) go from South to North. The average southerner was incredibly poor... BUT they had higher social standing and could always count on being "better" than any slave. It was powerful for the children of European immigrants, most of them former serfs, to have higher status and greater opportunity than the slaves in the field. The plantations were symbolic of the South, but to poor white farmers the relationship of white vs. black in the South was important symbolically, as well. Even more so if one's father or grandfather had been an indentured servant. They didn't view servitude as a negative, only as a way of life. The stories they circulated of slaves "earning" their freedom or being freed in wills nicely parallel stories today of people using abortions-that-didn't-happen as a way of justifying all abortion as terrible. See? Some slaves "do the right thing" by their owners and serve, knowing their place, end their lives happy and free! See? People like Tim Tebow claim they were nearly aborted and more women should "do the right thing", and they will end up happy, too!

                                                                        [–]Spiralyst 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                        And yet they fought in a war to preserve the welfare of plantation owners and their free sources of labor. A few rich guys getting poor people to fight their battles for them. Oh, my, how times have changed.

                                                                        [–]JohnBrownsRevenge 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                        The southern elites started the war.

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                                                                          [–]Squshiee_12 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                          The majority of confederate supports today are not racist your stupid if you think that more than like 5% support slavery

                                                                          [–]dragonfangxl 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                          You moron, it was about states rights..... to own people

                                                                          [–]Schwarze_Dreizehn 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                          The Confederacy was a movement to preserve the cotton economy and the dependent southern aristocracy. It was also a movement to defend the right of states to decide whether or not to own slaves. It's really weird to see poor whites flying the flag of the Confederacy too, considering they were barely above blacks and significant portions of the "white trash" lived in only slightly better conditions than slaves; their whiteness and lack of bondage being the only differentiating factor with both being heavily oppressed by a white minority.

                                                                          [–]manaworkin 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                          Maybe he's pro-slavery? I mean it's never safe to assume anything.

                                                                          [–]Helplessromantic 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                          and the majority of confederate supporters today are racist.

                                                                          Source?

                                                                          [–]CryoKing86 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                          The confederacy was a movement to preserve states rights not slavery. The north only freed southern slaves during the war of northern aggression boss, all northern slaves still worked the fields. Abolitionists werent considered that important until they offered a standing army to help crush the southern states and instill federal control over state property and governing.

                                                                          [–]_slickrick 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                          But it wasn't. Fuck you people are stupid.

                                                                          [–]Mr_unbeknownst 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                          No it wasn't Lincoln would not abolish slavery if it meant saving the union.

                                                                          [–]getfuckingreal 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                          the majority of confederate supporters today are racist.

                                                                          Just making up statements?

                                                                          Source please?

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