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DiscussionA Few Questions For /R/RightwingLGBT Regarding Transgender Rights (self.RightwingLGBT)

LeftCentristBisexual が 投稿 - announcement

So you can probably tell from my username I don't identify as Rightwing (but not regressive yadayada etc), but I do love to get a sense for what others think hence why I've come here.

I'm an Australian bisexual male and some of what this sub posts does appeal to me. For example I like what some of Milo says, but I disagree with other parts.

My question however is about Trans rights and I'd like your opinions on a few things especially since I assume a lot of you are from the U.S. are probably have a greater feel for the political climate. So here goes:

1. What is your opinion on the 'Trans bathroom bill'?

  • Personally I think the whole thing has been blown out of proportion. But I tend to agree with Trumps original view that Trans people should be able to use the bathroom of the sex they identify, with not his current view.
  • Some conservative argue that HB2 law is fair as it accommodates for trans people who change their legal sex once they have the medical procedures required - However I find this ridiculous as it doesn't accommodate for the trans people who have transitioned but haven't or don't feel the need to have sexual reassignment surgery.

2. How well do you think Trans people fit within the 'LGBT' community on the Right

  • I seem to perceive mixed feelings on this one as groups such as 'Gays for Trump' don't support trans rights in any capacity and I feel trans people in general are less accepted amongst conservatives (obviously) but also in conservative 'queer' circles
  • The name of this sub is 'RightwingLGBT' so I assume you support Trans rights in some capacity, but I'm curious on your individual stances on this one.

3. What are your opinions on Non-Binary Gender Identities such as Gender Queer, Gender Fluid, Agender, Demi-Gender etc

  • Personally I'm not convinced on these identities as I believe humans, as sexually dimorphic species, do largely fit into gender binaries - with trans being exceptions because gender dysphoria does account for people transitioning from one sex to the other.
  • It seems all too convenient for people who don't feel they identify with the 'stereotypical' gender roles or norms to then just think they must be "non-binary" because of misinformation and confusion from the far-left.
  • I should also note that I have been called a bigot for merely innocently questioning non-binary identities so I'm interested in hearing your opinions.

Thank you! Feel free to answer any or all of the above questions.

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[–]sailsouth_Transgender 9ポイント10ポイント  (7子コメント)

I can't answer all of your questions, because even here I fear backlash from people, but as a trans person myself, I don't 100% feel that I fit in the with the the lgbt community on the right. I dunno, but after the whole bathroom bill nonsense, I've seen some pretty disgusting things about trans people. Almost all of what I've seen equated us to child molesters. I unsubscribed from r/the_donald a while ago. It was like, when the Orlando night club shooting happened, they were all for gay people, but soon after, it was back to derogatory nonsense. I only subscribed because after reading a comments, I realized that there were other lgbt people who weren't hardcore leftist and I find that's very rare. But I should have noticed, when they were spouting "WE LOVE OUR GAYS" they only gave a shit about gay people.

Now, I was born female, but I feel as though I should have been born male. I'm attracted to women. And I'm not the most feminine looking person. I've already come to terms with the fact that I can never transition( for various reasons I don't want to get in to) but I still feel transgender. But now, after this whole bathroom nonsense, I'm terrifed of using public restrooms as be mistaken for a man just trying to get into the women's restroom to sexually harass people. This has happened to another gay woman who didn't dress traditionally feminine. It does not help that I live in the Southern part of the US.

I don't know. I just feel so out of place. It's really been taking a toll on me, emotionally.

[–]moskies[M] 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

You shouldn't fear backlash for expressing any opinions on here. This is absolutely an open, free speech forum first and foremost. Please do not fear expressing what you truly think on here, this is after all the most anonymous and safest place to do it.

If you get unreasonably harassed by people who are attacking you as an individual rather than attacking your arguments, we can remove their comments and ban them temporarily or permanently.

/u/QQ222 and I are both very active moderating here and can enforce this. Don't be afraid to use the report button for anything, we will review everything. Reporting is also anonymous in case you are concerned about that.

[–]sailsouth_Transgender 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you very much. I really appreciate you guys looking out for this sub :)

[–]LeftCentristBisexual[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

Thank you for your response, I sincerely appreciate your honesty and openness.

With the bathroom bill I completely understand. It seems that irrationality and building a strawman is easier than people being intellectually honest with themselves. It seems apparent that the whole 'child molesters' thing is quite stupid, because you would think the people who are spewing this rhetoric would be able to focus easier on gay males being perverts in male bathrooms and lesbian females in female bathrooms? It doesn't make any sense to me, not to mention that most trans people are attracted to the opposite sex of the one they transition. Also it seems to categorise trans people as perverts and deviants which is unfair especially when LGB on the right have been subject to the same accusations in the past.

I can see how it's tough not being the most feminine either with the bathroom situation. :( Just know that there are many of us LGBT that don't fall into either the far-left or the right, we just don't seem to be as well represented or as vocal, as you know, we are too often associated with the 'regressive' left.

I hope everything works out with you and you find balance and happiness. I know it must be tough but push through and don't get too caught up on what others might think, just know you deserve a good and happy life and keep pushing on. :)

EDIT: Also feel free to PM me if you want to talk, I might take a while to respond though

[–]sailsouth_Transgender 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Hey, thank you friend. I really appreciate the kind words :)

I apologize, I have no idea what the political scene is like in Australia, but I hope it's far from something that gives the lgbt folks any grief.

Take care :)

[–]moskies 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I hope it's far from something that gives the lgbt folks any grief.

Believe me, it's quite the opposite. Centre-left and left political parties having been pandering to the LGBT community harder in our last election than Shillary has all year. Works for them seeing as we still don't have same-sex marriage yet and numerous polls show a comfortable majority in support of it.

[–]sailsouth_Transgender 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Oh man, when you guys do get marriage equality, you better hope the next thing politicians cling to is race baiting....

Like this, for example: https://twitter.com/hillaryclinton/status/751542474972291072

Listen, I'm black and I would appreciate people no being racist towards me, but speaking from experience, I don't agree with telling an entire race what to do. There are over 300 million individuals in this country. There's no way of knowing how each of us views the world, you know? But whatever. Politicians will say what they have to say to get elected....

[–]moskies 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Closest thing we have to that level of race baiting is people accusing a newly elected senator here for being racist because of her criticism and dislike for Islam.

I don't know how many times these retarded lefties need to be told, Islam/Muslims are not a race. There are Muslims here that are whiter than fucking snowflakes. I'm not sure if they're generally confused that Muslims are like Ashkenazi Jews or something, or they don't really care and just like calling critics racist, even though they happily bash Christianity 24/7. By their standard, I might as well be racist against whiteys for criticising Christianity here.

[–]WeOwnThePurpleGay 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Australia represent. Excuse my lack of coherence, I've had a 12-hour workday.

  1. Don't really have an opinion. The two old problems I can see; infringing the right of the individual by denying access, and the complete inability to vet in the age of identity politics. Apparently there's been troubling incidents on this front - I would hazard that it's the familiar story about a few arseholes wrecking it for the group at large and the fundamentalists leaping upon it.

  2. I personally don't give a rat's if someone's transgender. Makes no difference to me. It only makes a difference (in my experience, same with being gay) to mindless box-tickers lusting after legitimacy.

I hesitate to speak for the rest of the community but I'd say a major rubbing sore that is that the sort of people that this community (and /r/the_donald) hate - regressive Leftists - have a big vocal transgender contingent. I feel like there's distrust there.

  1. Non-binary identities have the greasy paws of the 'Tumblr set' writ large on them. I treat these with extreme suspicion, because the sort of people who believe in that tend to believe in other hard-left lunacy (fat activism, black supremacy/white guilt, etc). I think that a person is either a boy or a girl; you can be more masculine or feminine in interests and behaviour but humans cannot biologically be 'between genders' in the Tumblr sense. That's just stupid.

[–]Chel_of_the_sea 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think that a person is either a boy or a girl; you can be more masculine or feminine in interests and behaviour but humans cannot biologically be 'between genders' in the Tumblr sense. That's just stupid.

Why not? The brain studies on binary trans folk don't in any way exclude the possibility of some sort of intermediate brain development. To my knowledge it's not something that's ever been studied, but I certainly don't think it's out of the question.

[–]moskies 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Non-binary identities have the greasy paws of the 'Tumblr set' writ large on them. I treat these with extreme suspicion, because the sort of people who believe in that tend to believe in other hard-left lunacy (fat activism, black supremacy/white guilt, etc). I think that a person is either a boy or a girl; you can be more masculine or feminine in interests and behaviour but humans cannot biologically be 'between genders' in the Tumblr sense. That's just stupid.

Agreed. There are two genders and we all know well what they are. Transgender has logic behind it as it is at least understandable how an individual could feel they are so closely aligned with behavioural and physical traits typical of the opposite gender that they essentially feel they are and have always been that gender, regardless of their objective biological sex.

Agender special snowflakes is just retarded shit some feminist made up on Tumblr one day when they were bored and had nothing more interesting to invest their thoughts in. As you said, people who are strongly in support of the loony non-binary retarded unicorns are also often in favour of equal opportunity programs gone too far, black/other racial supremacy, Islamic cultural appropriation and apologism, fat acceptance, etc, etc, etc. Basically the greens on steroids.

Straya cunt.

[–]OdonatGay 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

1) Transgender bathroom bill is a perfect example of the left trying to exploit identity politics. It's not a big deal, transgenders are a tiny tiny percent of the population and anyway the law will never be enforced. It's only useful for prosecuting people who are trying to take advantage of the recent gains in trans rights to creep into the wrong bathroom. That being said I think the state (was it North Carolina?) should've left it alone.

To add to this I see no wrong in having transpeople using the restroom of their birth sex. If you've got a penis, you are physically male, you should use a male restroom. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging the realities of your own body. If I were a transwoman with a penis I'd still use the men's restroom just because that's where the urinals are. That being said I understand the social implications of entering a men's restroom looking like a woman, which is why I support the right to choose.

2) I think that transpeople can fit in very well on the right but I do not consider the LGB community to be particularly relatable to the T community. The natures of gender identity and sexuality are very different and shouldn't be lumped together. I understand that gay rights is a good platform for transpeople to use for boosting exposure but comparing the two is an injustice to us both. I've had trans friends in the past but our perspectives on the world were wholly different due to our "identities". In my opinion the LGBT community should split into homosexuals individually and transpeople individually. Bisexuals are obviously lumped in with the homosexuals, I don't differentiate though because most bisexual issues (outside of the LGB community) revolve around homosexual relationships. Nobody is fighting for a bisexual's right to be in a heterosexual relationship if you know what I'm getting at.

3) After having spent time with "genderqueer" and gender"fluid" kids (I'm in college) I think it's all a load of bull. It's just identity politics taken to a new extreme. Gender is what you make it, you can identify with your body but still have traits that are traditionally associated with the other. By identifying as gender fluid people are overthinking things. Also I feel like gender fluid individuals make that idea a central part of their identity and end up amplifying some of their more unsavory personality traits. I've no problem with non-gender normative but people need to understand that if you look weird people are going to treat you weird.

Genderqueer as a concept is just the result of a childish ideology that suggests that male and female brains are no different.

To conclude: Transpeople are wonderful and I respect their cause but I think all the gains they've made recently are in vain. All this publicity exposed our generation as a mass of confused kids who don't know who they are. Kids who most likely weren't raised properly. The genuine transgender cause has been hijacked and diluted by millennials who really just need psychiatric help. Kids who subconsciously exploit something as ambiguous as their own gender identity for attention and, most importantly, minority points.

[–]aaskew 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Many if not most trans women use stalls, not urinals; they're uncomfortable with those. There's also a huge safety issue - entering a male bathroom while looking like a woman might alert strangers that she's trans, and some strangers are very hostile to trans people. So it's more than just a social problem there.

Regarding #2 - one problem with separating the two is that all trans people either are or at some point will have been perceived as LGB either pre- or post-transition, which means being also affected by homophobia and related laws.

[–]alyannemeiBisexual 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Just my perspective, I can't speak for the rest of the community. However, thank you for bringing these questions up! I'll try my best to give you my opinion.

1) It's been completely blown out of proportion, like you said. People can use whatever washrooms they like. It's just that I'm amazed this aspect of trans rights has gotten so much spotlight when trans people are being stoned/attacked in Europe by the Muslims.

2) I don't think identity has anything to do with having a political opinion. There are always some people who consider trains people to be mentally ill, but it's incorrect to brand a whole spectrum of thought as "transphobic" because of a few discerning opinions here and there. Which brings me to...

3) I think many people have bad impressions of the trans community because of what Tumblr has done to them. After hearing the plethora of BS that comes from Tumblr in the form of otherkin, demi-semi-grey pansexual aromantic whatever, "transethnics", etc... it is easy to associate "trans" with those attention seeking idiots.

Is non-binary a thing? I don't think so. At least not scientifically. You may argue that there is a third gender in other cultures, but again I believe that to be an aspect of the culture instead of PROOF that all gender constructs are false and etc.

Bottom line is, being transgendered (MtF, FtM) has been proven to be scientifically viable. Being a genderfluid neutrois demiboy has not.

Someone calling you a bigot for merely questioning proves how insecure they are. It isn't any fault on your part.

But yeah... hopefully I answered those in a way that is helpful. Welcome to the sub and hope you like what we have to say :))

[–]QQ222Glorious owner and shitlord 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Im happy to see this thread be active and pretty constructive. Huzzah for the sub!

I would be happy to answer your questions and I would like to point out that these feelings are my own and not enforced in any way shape or form. I might own the sub, but I do not care for echo chambers.

  1. What is your opinion on the 'Trans bathroom bill'?

It is a mix of stupid from both sides. Transgender people in bathrooms never created much of an issue before, the only real problems that arose were from cis people who would attack them (of which there were MANY videos of such things happen if you checked worldstar or such non-youtube video sites.). So there needed to be SOME kind of response to this, but when we made a distinct law for this, it DID create a situation for predators to take advantage of. There are starting to be reports of "transgendered women" taking pics of women in bathrooms and dressing rooms and that is entirely unacceptable as well.

I don't honestly believe there will be a clear easy answer to this situation given that what I feel would work, most transgender people would probably call me literallyHitler for suggesting.

  1. How well do you think Trans people fit within the 'LGBT' community on the Right

Transgender rights, medicine, and research are mostly separate completely. Sexuality and gender are just different. There is, however, a lot of overlap between transgendered people and the other LGB communities. I remember reading somewhere that something like 33% of transgendered are gay and another 30% are bisexual, but thats more circumstantial.

And lets be fucking honest, most LGB people don't care for the T part, hell, L and G often don't care for each other and no one cares about the B. We are really only a community in name. It is no wonder that a good number of LGB want the T out of the community, we aren't useful politically anymore, more so now that SJWcucks have sank their claws into the T community the way they have.

  1. What are your opinions on Non-Binary Gender Identities such as Gender Queer, Gender Fluid, Agender, Demi-Gender etc

I do not believe any part of this exists in any capacity. I believe there are two genders, male and female, and everyone is one of them. Transgendered is not a gender, it is a process, they started with one and identified as the other, they are still either male or female.

All of this non-binary stuff is attentionwhoring. Gender roles, while they might be "social constructs" in that they are represented somewhat differently in different cultures, still have distinct genders and gendered cultures. Men are still men, women are still women. Saying that genders are social constructs so we can do away with them is silly. To say that masculinity is toxic and femininity is problematic is stupid.

[–]moskies 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I remember reading somewhere that something like 33% of transgendered are gay and another 30% are bisexual, but thats more circumstantial.

Does that mean they are homosexual from the perspective of their alternate gender or from their sex-aligned gender?

[–]QQ222Glorious owner and shitlord 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Homosexual from the perspective of their preferred gender.

[–]moskies 1ポイント2ポイント  (9子コメント)

I'm an Australian bisexual male and some of what this sub posts does appeal to me. For example I like what some of Milo says, but I disagree with other parts.

This describes me 100%

Aussie bisexual male (NSW) - love some of what Milo says, other parts are stupid, but the good far outweighs the bad.

My views on the T in LGBT are on the more controversial side particularly considering I'm a moderator here. I'll give you my raw opinion regardless. In saying that, my views are in no way a representation of the views of any of the other moderators here, nor do they necessarily endorse or condemn my views. This sub is for anyone LGBT.

People can disagree with me, and that's fine, I think most people here would. The great thing about this subreddit is that people are allowed to have controversial and conflicting views and us moderators won't remove comments because it is too upsetting for some special snowflake to read. That is the standard practice of all the LGBT subs on reddit - totally far-left dominated shithouses that are, to no surprise, self-declared 'safe spaces'.

What is your opinion on the 'Trans bathroom bill'?

It's a stupid, trivial issue that has been blown out of proportion by the Christian Taliban faction of conservative government. People obviously have reason to be uncomfortable with biological males in women's bathrooms and vice versa, however I prefer to look at statistics on these kinds of issues. While there have been cases of creeps committing indecent acts in a bathroom not aligned with their biological sex, there are so few of them you are really more likely to be made a victim of some crime by a member of the sex that is traditionally supposed to be in there. I agree with Trump's position on it, it is a states issue and federal government should not be getting involved like Obama has done with executive orders for schools. If a biological woman was in a male bathroom with me I honestly wouldn't care that much, however, some people would, so I think we should respect their concerns and try to find a middle ground for legislation, regardless of however unfounded those beliefs may be.

How well do you think Trans people fit within the 'LGBT' community on the Right

Not very well at all. I think the general consensus among conservatives who are not pursuing 100% traditional family values is that LGB people can slide and even go so far as getting same-sex marriage and it won't bother them too much. Transgenders, however, will not pass for that, and rightfully so in my opinion. We have prominent gay conservative figures like Milo expressing his view that transgenderism is nothing more than a mental illness that has been tacked on to the gay-rights movement as just another battle in the social justice frontier. I agree with him on that, the problem is that most conservatives against trannies don't know enough about it to properly support their arguments without resorting to "God said it's weird".

There are many trans people on this sub from the vague indication I can get from checking the user flairs that people have assigned themselves. This subreddit certainly is accepting of trans rights to whatever capacity that the users want to support it to. This is, after all, a subreddit for the users to discuss and share what they believe in and care about, not a tool for the moderators to craft and publicise their own specific political agendas. Personally for me, my views are not that I hate transgender people or think they should be indirectly oppressed through trivial legislation, rather I am against transitioning as treatment for dysphoria and I am vehemently against accepting transgeder individuals as being female when they are in reality objectively male. The whole debate goes on then that gender is mind sex is organs and cells, I know, I've had the debate many times and I know the facts and differentiation, I'm just trying to summarise it in this reply.

What are your opinions on Non-Binary Gender Identities such as Gender Queer, Gender Fluid, Agender, Demi-Gender etc

They're fucking retarded and need to find something more meaningful to devote their time to thinking deeply about, honestly. Gender fluidity is the pinnacle of combination between mental illness and special snowflake syndrome ingrained in the younger generation today. Non-binary and agender do have at least some reasoning and sense to them but they're still just special snowflake identities that don't exist in my view. Demi-gender = demi-snowflake.

I'm sure as a fellow Aussie you are aware and presumably disgusted by the safe schools coalition that is currently at the forefront of indoctrination of kids in public schools across Australia right now. It teaches contested gender theory stuff to kids as though it is objective and established fact, and basically shuns and ostracises kids who don't literally pledge through signed allegiances to supporting and respecting the identity of other kids who think they're a fucking agender unicorn.

Also about being called a bigot, yeah, get used to it. People get called a bigot for literally anything now, just laugh at it and move on really. In the end, they're the ones who are truly intolerant of another person's views.

My question however is about Trans rights and I'd like your opinions on a few things especially since I assume a lot of you are from the U.S. are probably have a greater feel for the political climate. So here goes:

The subreddit is basically completely US oriented at the moment with the current focus on getting Trump elected that has swept the right-wing subs of reddit. I'm hoping that after Trump is elected we could shift the focus a bit towards rightwing fags internationally, not just the US. There is plenty of criticism of left-wing LGBT in Australia that would suit this place nicely I think, it would be great to get more people from all around the world who are on the right of the political spectrum as well as being a glorious homo. I'm merely a new pleb mod who did the CSS here though, so we'll have to check with /u/QQ222 for the go-ahead on that later this year.

[–]Chel_of_the_sea 1ポイント2ポイント  (8子コメント)

If a biological woman was in a male bathroom with me I honestly wouldn't care that much, however, some people would, so I think we should respect their concerns and try to find a middle ground for legislation, regardless of however unfounded those beliefs may be.

I'm gonna make a somewhat aggressive attack on this logic. I really, really hate Christianity and organized religion in general. Presumably, you think that's unfounded. But by your logic, don't we have an obligation to find some compromise to limit Christian access to my spaces, even though it violates their civil liberties?

rather I am against transitioning as treatment for dysphoria

On what basis? It's demonstrably beneficial, and there's no known other method of producing the same benefits.

[–]moskies -5ポイント-4ポイント  (7子コメント)

I'm gonna make a somewhat aggressive attack on this logic. I really, really hate Christianity and organized religion in general. Presumably, you think that's unfounded. But by your logic, don't we have an obligation to find some compromise to limit Christian access to my spaces, even though it violates their civil liberties?

I see the point you're making but the analogy doesn't really fit.

The unfounded expression of concern for transgender bathroom laws is one of safety from sexual assault/being creeped on. What would be the concern in the limitation of Christian access to your spaces? What even are your spaces? If for example, you wanted a ban on Christian people being allowed to go to atheist community functions run by individuals, I think that would be very reasonable.

The difference is that sex-segregated bathrooms have always existed for the clear purpose of separation to make it comfortable/less-confronting for people wishing to use the facility. It is an extreme minority that is now disturbing that preexistent sex-segregation. A middle ground can certainly be worked on, however the government generally acts for the wishes and needs of the overwhelming majority and that makes it harder to cater for the wishes of the overwhelming minority. Everyone needs to be taken care of, I agree, but it is obviously trickier to cater to 0.3% of the population's wishes that may disturb at least half of the remainder of the population.

On what basis? It's demonstrably beneficial, and there's no known other method of producing the same benefits.

On the basis of principle. While transitioning is clearly the most effective method of alleviating dysphoria that currently exists, it will still never address the underlying psychological issues that exist in strong correlation with gender dysphoria. Ultimately no degree of transitioning will ever ensure a solution to all relevant issues, whether they be emotional, psychological, social, et cetera.

Would it be better if a person experiencing significant gender dysphoria could just take a prescription of 10 or 20 milligrams of a drug each day and have weekly or monthly accompanying psychotherapy,

or;

is it better for an individual to block puberty until very late adolescence, bordering on adulthood, have hormonal treatment to reverse their body's natural production of hormones and instead force it to maintain the opposite sex's hormones effectively sterilising themselves. Socially transition and require everyone and everything to adjust for them (including a shitload of legal documentation that nobody wants to waste their time wading through), and perhaps eventually have irreversible genital reassignment surgery to remove their already perfectly functional sex organs and restructure them in a way to emulate those of the opposite sex?

I would say the former is the option that we should really be striving to achieve, with the latter as the absolute last possible path of treatment if all that is what is necessary to alleviate an individual's suffering.

My main view on the issue is that there needs to be a very significant focus on research to definitively determine root causes of dysphoria as well as any psycho-therapeutic or medicinal treatment that can alleviate dysphoria to any extent, particularly to the extent that transitioning currently does for individuals who have just transitioned. Further to that, transitioning and shoving everything under the rug and screaming T pride won't make all the issues go away. Continued and ongoing treatment is still needed long-term in many cases. This view is supported in the frequently referenced plos one 2011 study concluding that;

"Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment"

[–]Chel_of_the_sea 4ポイント5ポイント  (6子コメント)

The unfounded expression of concern for transgender bathroom laws is one of safety from sexual assault/being creeped on. What would be the concern in the limitation of Christian access to your spaces?

How about sexual assault? There are a lot more documented cases of that from priests than there are from trans people.

Now, obviously this is ridiculous, but it's exactly as ridiculous as the panic over trans people in bathrooms. Do people honestly think that someone intent on committing sexual assault is going to go "damn, you know, I was going to commit a felony today but the sign on the door says women only!".

All of this probably sounds like a flagrant base-rate-ignorance fallacy, which is exactly what it is. But that's sort of the point. There was one case recently of a trans woman creeping on someone (in a damn co-ed dressing room, by the way, so her trans status was totally irrelevant) and it got jumped on by the right as a SEE LOOK THEY'RE REALLY A THREAT YOU GUYS proof-by-example. But of course, there are tens of thousands of trans people in the U.S., just as there are priests, so finding one trans person committing a sex crime proves as little as finding one priest.

If for example, you wanted a ban on Christian people being allowed to go to atheist community functions run by individuals, I think that would be very reasonable.

By individuals doesn't create a proper analogy, since many of the anti-trans-bathroom bills apply even to private business.

The difference is that sex-segregated bathrooms have always existed for the clear purpose of separation to make it comfortable/less-confronting for people wishing to use the facility.

I'd have gone with "have always existed to reinforce puritan social mores", but okay.

A middle ground can certainly be worked on, however the government generally acts for the wishes and needs of the overwhelming majority and that makes it harder to cater for the wishes of the overwhelming minority. Everyone needs to be taken care of, I agree, but it is obviously trickier to cater to 0.3% of the population's wishes that may disturb at least half of the remainder of the population.

If civil rights only apply if you're big enough, they're not civil rights, they're just extra protections on a majority that doesn't need it.

While transitioning is clearly the most effective method of alleviating dysphoria that currently exists, it will still never address the underlying psychological issues that exist in strong correlation with gender dysphoria.

I was expecting a diatribe about how it doesn't work, so this surprise caught me somewhat by surprise. You concede that it works and that no better treatment is available, yet still oppose it because it's not a 100% cure-all?

That seems like an absurd standard for almost any medical treatment. I'm getting surgery next week, a totally routine surgery that is performed thousands of times a year and is 100% accepted by every corner of the medical community. It won't fix the malfunctioning part of my body; they're just taking it out. They're doing so because, despite the mild risk of complications and the slight loss of function, it relieves a lot of acute pain and risk of later complications. But by your logic, should they just leave it in until they can figure out something that solves the problem non-surgically?

The reason it's not a cure-all is that I spent 22 years in a body that didn't work for me. You can't spend a decade trying to hide your body from everyone and wondering why, why, why you don't fit into it like everyone else and not carry some scars from the shame and doubt you felt throughout.

Would it be better if a person experiencing significant gender dysphoria could just take a prescription of 10 or 20 milligrams of a drug each day and have weekly or monthly accompanying psychotherapy

Would it be better if we lived in the magical fairy land where no condition requires any difficulty or side-effect to treat? Maybe - questions of changing such fundamental portions of someone's identity aside - but we don't live in that world.

The question is not "should we take this anti-dysphoria pill or transition?" which I'll concede would be a question worthy of vigorous debate. The question is "do we use this treatment that is proven to help, or do we leave people suffering?".

My main view on the issue is that there needs to be a very significant focus on research to definitively determine root causes of dysphoria

I have no problem with this at all. I'd love to see such research, and so would almost every trans person I know.

Further to that, transitioning and shoving everything under the rug and screaming T pride won't make all the issues go away.

Did literally anyone say otherwise? Of course there are still things to contend with, it's not super fun being born a sex you don't feel like you're 'supposed' to be. But it's a hell of a lot better to have a body that mostly works the way you want than one that doesn't work that way at all.

Do I wish I had a completely typical female body? Sure. I really wish I could carry kids, for example. But it's still so much better than it used to be that I crack into a huge smile looking at myself in the mirror once a day or so.

This view is supported in the frequently referenced plos one 2011 study

That study was done over a very long term, most of which was during a period in which trans people were completely ostracized. They note, for example, major differences in their pre-1989 and post-1989 cohorts. There are a whole pile of reasons I can think of off the top of my head why they'd find such problems, including:

  • Selection bias: at the time, transition was hard to access and was usually reserved for those who were suicidally distressed about their bodies. If you select for such people, of course you're going to find high incidences of suicide, even if you apply effective treatments. Rates of suicide are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay higher among people with previous attempts.

  • Late transitions: a number of studies have found that poor results from transition are a good predictor of suicidality and dissatisfaction among post-transition people. Average age of transition was much higher at this time, and thus average effectiveness was much lower.

  • Class-based issues: they didn't control, iirc, for economic class, nor did they control for urban/rural status. People who live in cities have double the suicide rate of those who live in rural areas, so this is a not insubstantial effect. They also didn't control for things like smoking rate (their sample was far more likely to smoke than the general public).

  • Family stress: a large number of trans people today, myself included, are turned away by their families. In the 80s, at the height of the AIDS panic and long before LGBT acceptance was a glimmer in anyone's eye, that rate was presumably a whole lot higher. That shit alone will fuck up your psyche.

Once you eliminate some of these effects by studying people who had access to transition in their teens (which would necessarily involve accepting families), elevated rates of mental illness disappear.

[–]moskies 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

How about sexual assault? There are a lot more documented cases of that from priests than there are from trans people. Now, obviously this is ridiculous, but it's exactly as ridiculous as the panic over trans people in bathrooms. Do people honestly think that someone intent on committing sexual assault is going to go "damn, you know, I was going to commit a felony today but the sign on the door says women only!". All of this probably sounds like a flagrant base-rate-ignorance fallacy, which is exactly what it is. But that's sort of the point. There was one case recently of a trans woman creeping on someone (in a damn co-ed dressing room, by the way, so her trans status was totally irrelevant) and it got jumped on by the right as a SEE LOOK THEY'RE REALLY A THREAT YOU GUYS proof-by-example. But of course, there are tens of thousands of trans people in the U.S., just as there are priests, so finding one trans person committing a sex crime proves as little as finding one priest.

I do agree with you, that's why I describe it as an unfounded concern.

If civil rights only apply if you're big enough, they're not civil rights, they're just extra protections on a majority that doesn't need it.

I agree with that, I didn't mean for it to sound like I'm defending the way that state governments seem to act like this. I'm saying I can see why they do it and why they think it's the right laws to be passing, I don't necessarily agree with the conditions of those laws.

I was expecting a diatribe about how it doesn't work, so this surprise caught me somewhat by surprise. You concede that it works and that no better treatment is available, yet still oppose it because it's not a 100% cure-all?

That's not the reason I oppose it, and I don't even oppose it in the sense you describe it here. I accept that transitioning must and should be done if that is the only thing that will alleviate a person's suffering, however my view is that the medical field should strive in the direction of finding any possible treatment that addresses the issue at it's root, in the mind, as opposed to giving up and prescribing final 'treatment' as a series of physical and social changes to allow an individual with a mental disorder to live in a way their mind believes correct, as opposed to objective reality.

The reason it's not a cure-all is that I spent 22 years in a body that didn't work for me. You can't spend a decade trying to hide your body from everyone and wondering why, why, why you don't fit into it like everyone else and not carry some scars from the shame and doubt you felt throughout.

That's not a reason for it not being a 'cure-all', that's just an anecdote for where nothing has had any effect in alleviating dysphoria.

Would it be better if we lived in the magical fairy land where no condition requires any difficulty or side-effect to treat? Maybe - questions of changing such fundamental portions of someone's identity aside - but we don't live in that world. The question is not "should we take this anti-dysphoria pill or transition?" which I'll concede would be a question worthy of vigorous debate. The question is "do we use this treatment that is proven to help, or do we leave people suffering?".

I think the question should be; do we continue allowing people to transition when it still leaves many with underlying psychological issues and the obvious social ostracisation associated, or should we do absolutely everything in our power to really pursue other treatment that will relieve dysphoria and allow people to happily live with the body and identity they were born into.

That study was done over a very long term, most of which was during a period in which trans people were completely ostracized. They note, for example, major differences in their pre-1989 and post-1989 cohorts. There are a whole pile of reasons I can think of off the top of my head why they'd find such problems, including:

The criticism that can be made about the validity of the data since they were a considerably ostracised control group doesn't really draw away that much from the conclusion that my views align with saying: "Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment"

[–]Chel_of_the_sea 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

I think the question should be; do we continue allowing people to transition when it still leaves many with underlying psychological issues and the obvious social ostracisation associated, or should we do absolutely everything in our power to really pursue other treatment that will relieve dysphoria and allow people to happily live with the body and identity they were born into.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. If you want to advocate for research into it, I'm totally cool with that, as long as it isn't coupled with opposition into the working-if-not-perfectly treatment we have available today.

As a side note, I do want to give a hell of a thumbs-up to this sub. It's one of the better ones around for substantive debate.

[–]moskies 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

The two aren't mutually exclusive. If you want to advocate for research into it, I'm totally cool with that, as long as it isn't coupled with opposition into the working-if-not-perfectly treatment we have available today.

I just don't think it is okay to concede defeat with a mental illness and allow it's sufferers to conform to what they think is right, even when that is still at the cost of extensive social ostracisation.

People often get confused when I make any sort of anti-trans argument or get involved in a debate because they think I'm 'anti-trans' in the sense I don't want them to exist. That's stupid, it's like being anti-brown haired people, they will exist forever whether you like it or not. I'm only against transitioning as being the set-standard treatment resulting in medical field giving up on pursuing anything else.

As a side note, I do want to give a hell of a thumbs-up to this sub. It's one of the better ones around for substantive debate.

Thanks. Reddit contains either incredibly accepting and supportive safe spaces like all the major LGBT+ subs, or it has anti-semitic tranny hating retards like on (((/r/PublicHealthWatch))) and /r/Transfags who just shitpost about stuff they don't like. There hasn't been an in-between community that actually aims to discuss all sides of the issue for a long time now, that's what we're trying to achieve here. Also we're not over-sensitive fags that get upset when someone makes a joke about AIDS, lmao.

[–]Chel_of_the_sea 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I just don't think it is okay to concede defeat with a mental illness and allow it's sufferers to conform to what they think is right

It's not "patient said so so that's best". It's "patient said so and history shows us that in this particular instance we should trust them unless given some reason to believe otherwise". If you go a doc and tell them your arm hurts, they're not going to go "prove it".

[–]moskies 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

If I went to a doctor and told them I feel like I shouldn't have my left-leg and truly believe I shouldn't have been born with it they shouldn't just accept what I say, nor should they amputate it just to make me feel better. Description of pain reception is far different from a self-view of the state of your body.

[–]Chel_of_the_sea 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

IIRC there've been preliminary studies on that that show good results. The bar is a bit higher because of the disability involved, but provided that those results pan out and that no other method does the job? Yeah, I'd say they should.

[–]XoadraTransgender 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

  1. On trans bathroom laws...
    • The pro bathroom law position is unsubstantiated except by paranoia about the unknown. I don't believe society should cater to people's discomfort if it isn't connected to a known, legitimate threat against their well-being. Trans people, the non SJW kind at least (and there are many of us who just want to live our lives in peace and happiness), are no such threat.
  2. On right wing LGBT sentimentality towards trans people...
    • I see a stronger anti-trans contingency from the LGB right compared to the left. I believe this is because trans activism has practically from its inception been co-opted by far left radicals (SJWs basically) whose mission is to destroy any and all gender boundaries because they adhere to the religious doctrine of combating the evil patriarchy that they believe is responsible for much of what's wrong in the world. Of course what they don't understand is that no system is perfect, and flaws does not mean an overhaul is needed. It almost never is unless you have a police state that's literally rounding up citizens for death sentences. They don't realize how good they have it because they have no idea what REAL oppression is. What blacks, gays, and trannies face in America can't even be called oppression compared to non Western societies. It's insulting to those under third world socialist dictatorships to call them such.
  3. On non-binary and other genders...
    • In the beginning I was more open minded to them. Based upon the science I've read, they made sense at the time, but this was also when I was first coming out and the support for trans people is almost exclusively very left wing so I was in an echo chamber. Since then I've done more reading, it's become clear the difference between male and female brains are different, but there's A LOT of overlap. Any trace of "non-binaryism" would have to exist somewhere within the murky middle. At this point, a lot of the "genders" I hear about just seem to be adding adjectives to males and females and quite frankly neither make sense to me. If you're a demi-boy, I'm pretty sure you're just a guy. In terms of mental, physical, AND chemical factors together, only two genders have these distinctions all their own: men and women. While their are intersex people, their parts are not a third set of genitals apart from male and female reproductive systems, but rather are a melding of male and female genitalia.
    • Truly, I doubt the existence of these genders, but I don't care if someone wants they/them/their pronouns (anything else is stupid though) or if their presentation is gender neutral, gender atypical, or even mixed gender as weird as that is. I truly do care that people are comfortable with themselves, and I think gender roles are harmful when they are enforced or are a societal expectation, but that doesn't mean your gender is different because you don't fit into traditional gender roles and presentations. If we're really going to have this many genders, there's no need to even record gender at all because it loses its meaning. You don't need a unique gender label because your dress and act androgynously. Unless you feel discomfort or distress over your physical gender or a longing or euphoria towards presenting as the other gender, you are the gender you are born as and it doesn't affect how you have to be at all. Unless someone can make a compelling case for non-binary gender, I'll remain skeptical of it, but otherwise I don't really care what someone wants to call themselves or what pronouns they want because other people's genders doesn't matter to me in the least.

[–]moskies 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

They don't realize how good they have it because they have no idea what REAL oppression is. What blacks, gays, and trannies face in America can't even be called oppression compared to non Western societies. It's insulting to those under third world socialist dictatorships to call them such.

People who scream oppression and bigotry 24/7 should try living in an Islamic country as a homosexual transgender woman. Make note of the differences of oppression between a western secular democracy and a sharia controlled state like Iran. Perhaps they would stop pandering to and defending Islam so much.

[–]waterbogan 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

  1. What is your opinion on the 'Trans bathroom bill'?

Waste of time and effort on a trivial non-issue that takes the focus off far more pressing life and death issues. Fighting about this when we are about to face some very serious problems soon with the coming Islamist Apocalypse (if not already) is the height of stupidity. Just Use what bathroom you feel is appropriate.

  1. How well do you think Trans people fit within the 'LGBT' community on the Right

I dont think they are as accepted as they should be. I personally have absolutely no issue with them as a right wing populist gay man. I actually outlined my views on this in full here a couple of months back; https://www.reddit.com/r/RightwingLGBT/comments/4gerc0/embracing_the_t_in_lgbt_a_perspective_from_a/

  1. What are your opinions on Non-Binary Gender Identities such as Gender Queer, Gender Fluid, Agender, Demi-Gender etc

I accept anyone that has got their head more or less in the right place. To reiterate something I said on that other thread.... God alone knows I find all those other variations confusing as all hell... but that said, if some genderqueer or non-binary or trans whatever individual is fighting the good fight against Islamofacism and/or for Israel, than I only have one word for them, and that is "friend"