全 82 件のコメント

[–]morelikebigpoor 1ポイント2ポイント  (8子コメント)

Is this insane? Because it sounds insane, but I wanted to check.

A major reason for the decline in American manufacturing was due to WWII and the ability of Japan and Germany to build their steel manufacturing plants from scratch. The older the steel manufacturing factory, the less efficient they are. They are extremely expensive to build so it helped Japan and Germany that America destroyed them and then supplied the investments to build new ones.

[–]georgeguy007[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (7子コメント)

I mean, I'm no economist, but It kinda makes sense. I think you have your frame of mind mixed up. The poster is saying that America destroying their Steel Industries, and then helping rebuild their industries, helped present day Japan/Germany. This would allow for a free upgrade to more modern building codes and layout, while having a forward thinking build process in mind.

Now did this actually happen? No idea.

[–]Rikkiwiththatnumber 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, it sounds like the same logic that leads to America and some other developed countries have ridiculously slow internet speeds. The infrastructure was build before fast internet was really a thing.

[–]morelikebigpoor 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

Well I'm not mixed up as far as understanding what he intended to say. It's clear how that could be helpful to the manufacturing plants themselves, but even conceptually it starts to seem crazy just taking into account all the other things that were destroyed and people that were killed. Then there's the question of if it actually happened that way.

[–]georgeguy007[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

From the portion you posted, it just seems to be a certain angle the quote is conveying. Its giving background to why America got outperformed in Steel, and the reasons why. The 'helped Japan/Germany' is focused on the Steel industry, not the total value of destruction and loss of life the war caused.

Its just using history to explain an economical issue.

[–]morelikebigpoor 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

That was the entire comment, the context actually doesn't help. The original conversation was about the potential for world events to hurt the stock market. Specifying the steel industry came out of the blue, unless I missed something.

https://np.reddit.com/r/financialindependence/comments/4snn68/arent_you_afraid_of_black_swan_events/d5ava1g?context=5

EDIT: edited link to np. Really wish it would do that automatically instead of just deleting the comment. They can do it for advertising but not this :(

[–]georgeguy007[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Puts on Mod Glasses

Well 'np' is a user made feature. So reddit admins haven't done jack shit to make it easier for users.

Anyways, that comment really comes out of the blue. But yeah, I am unsure of the historical accuracy of the point, and it seems plausible. I don't really have a problem with it beyond that.

[–]Tilderabbit 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well 'np' is a user made feature. So reddit admins haven't done jack shit to make it easier for users.

A live example of how old infrastructure couldn't keep up with new developments... I forward the motion to have America destroy Reddit and rebuild it from ground-up.

[–]Donogath 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

This isn't anything recent, but one bit of bad history that's always stuck in my mind is from my 7th grade Spanish teacher. She taught us that the Alamo was a battle in the Mexican-American war where American troops slaughtered a bunch of Mexicans.

[–]ApeGrapes 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

As someone who took Texas History twice in the span of five years and loved every minute of it, that's infuriating.

I haven't seen a lot of Texas Revolution bad history but oh boy is the bad history bad.

also fuck santa anna

[–]Krstoserofil 8ポイント9ポイント  (13子コメント)

DISCLAIMER: Post written by a person that despises religion.

I am planing to make a bigger thread about this, but I am the only one who gets infuriated that a lot of people think that "bigotry" came with Monothestic religions, and that before them the world was a cultural utopia with Greeks&Romans having bisexual orgies on the streets while discussing Astrophysics!?

That science was a "sin" in the middle ages, and that witches were regularly burned in the middle ages and that before a battle all Greek City state soldiers gave BJs and anal to each other because they were so progressive.

It's so interesting how the atheist/skeptic community, that supposedly supports reason and science is so irrational and narrow minded about this. How much they want to hear and push that somehow all world's evils are in religion.

I also find a lot of people that study other social sciences somehow think they are an authority on this, or even worse people that study natural sciences.

[–]cyrano_de_burgerrack 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's so interesting how the atheist/skeptic community, that supposedly supports reason and science is so irrational and narrow minded about this. How much they want to hear and push that somehow all world's evils are in religion.

Wait a minute, your post was about how Pagan religions are stereotypically seen as progressive. Are you saying it's atheists (people without a religion) who are pushing this stereotype? Otherwise, that's one hell of a strawman.

[–]Krstoserofil 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Mostly yes, that's because they grew up around monotheism, and they will try to make anything look like a 100$ next to the monotheistic religion they were forced to interact with.

It's a sort of the enemy of my enemy is my friend scenario, which is the whole problem.

They are essentially Allies in WW2 releasing propaganda movies how the Soviet Union is awesome.

[–]Illogical_BloxChe Guavara was Socialist Jesus 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, that's annoying. Especially as someone (an agnostic) who participates a fair amount in religious activities and communities.

[–]etherizedonatableOne of Jared Diamond's many troll accounts 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

On a related note, I see the "Jesus didn't exist" crowd as the atheist equivalent of the folks who bring up the second law of thermodynamics to "disprove" evolution. As an atheist, this shit drives me crazy.

[–]Nkaj 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Not saying I disagree with you but I do find it sad that religions could co-exist better before monotheistic religions became dominant,e.g. Romans being relatively tolerant of local religions (Someone can correct me if I'm wrong). From my limited reading it seemed that some of the trouble started with monotheistic religious followers refusing to acknowledge existence of other gods, even though practitioners of other religions could accept the existence of monotheistic gods.

[–]Tilderabbit 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, you're not wrong per se, but "relatively tolerant" contains certain subtleties that makes your thesis a bit too broad. (I'm pretty sure that there's an AskHistorian post that addressed this, but I can't for my life find it.)

To take your example of the Romans, they only tolerated local religions as much as they conformed to their own state religion. They still imposed their rites and customs on conquered peoples and expected them to follow suit, even though they might not extinguish the belief in local gods itself. Indeed, they did accept certain foreign gods like Isis and Mithras, who earned a significant number of worshipers.

But they did not extend the same treatment to religions that did not conform to their expectations. I think Roman persecutions of Christianity pretty much went against the idea that followers of polytheism could always accept monotheist gods, because the Roman authority certainly wouldn't accept the Christians' disavowal of the state gods and rituals. That is, the Romans couldn't accept monotheists from their end either.

As for other polytheists that did not align with their own customs, the Romans also violently suppressed the Celtic druids and outlawed them from the Empire. There could be political motives there as well, but the Romans explicitly expressed their distaste toward their practice of human sacrifice.

Meanwhile, there were relative tolerance among monotheist attitudes toward other religions as well. Early Medieval Muslims extended the dhimmi status - which entailed protection and certain rights - to Zoroastrians, for example, although the extent it was enforced depended on the time period (the Zoroastrians certainly suffered from persecutions by Muslim hands through their history). Frederick II of the Holy Roman Empire established a Muslim commune in Lucera to prevent religious revolts; it was definitely intended to control the Muslim population, but he didn't kill, expel, or force them to convert.

So, to sum up, what I'm trying to say is that the attitude between polytheists and monotheists through history really varied depending time, location, and other factors. I don't think we can really apply such a broad trend regarding tolerance in that vast array of attitudes - not least because they're quite different from our concept of tolerance.

[–]Krstoserofil 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree partially with that, my problem is over simplification and exaggeration. Not to mention turning it into a simple black&white matter.

But religion still had strong influence, for example the destruction of hermai statues in Athens was a huge scandal.

[–]lestrigone 5ポイント6ポイント  (5子コメント)

bisexual orgies on the streets while discussing Astrophysics!?

Something something Uranus.

Also atheist/skeptic, or rather bad atheist/skeptic, community doesn't support reason and science, or their version of reason and science, for any other reason than cultural and political imprinting.

[–]Krstoserofil 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

What strikes me in the head the most is how they almost imply that somehow in the Ancient times it was better then today! As in it would fit more our modern sensibilities that give credence to free speech, social care, scientific method and entertainment.

[–]lestrigone 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

That's because of how the Middle Ages are understood - and, I think, have been understood since the creation of the term: as a hiatus in the process of progress towards an utopia that History has been argued to be for a very long time. They don't really argue that in the past it was better than today, they argue that today's well-being has its causes in the same metahistorical forces that were active in the antiquity, and that were stumped by the Dark Ages of Darth Church. Today is worse because we've been through the Middle Ages, and, even if we have gone back on the path of progress, its corrupting influence is still there, slowing civilization from going full utopia. We live better than Antiquity, but we're not as "pure" anymore.

[–]Krstoserofil 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

The people you are alluding too are not people that make me angry.

[–]lestrigone 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm sorry I misunderstood then.

[–]Krstoserofil 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

You still presented some interesting thoughts.

[–]RustenSkurk 13ポイント14ポイント  (2子コメント)

So, this comment turned up in an AskReddit thread (which was generally a clusterf**ck of people trying to present their opinions as fact).

Until wartime comes that is. Wasn't 2 million Muslims who died in Stalingrad, or 600,000 black men who died in the Civil War, or 500,000 Native Americans who died fighting Carthage, for modern civilization as we know it. White people have endured their own share of suffering.

So apparently the war against Carthage was somehow in service of "modern civilization". Because he semi-democratic merchant republic of Carthage would clearly be against everything we in the West stand for /s. There's bigger problems with this comment, but I don't have the knowledge or dedication to make a full badhistory post about it.

[–]StoryWonkerGunpowder killed the Swiss. This is why their cheese has holes. 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

This person does realise there were Muslim troops fighting in WWII, right?

[–]newappealVisigoth apologist 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hilarious that out of the thousands of wars fought predominantly by white people, he went with the Civil War for one of his examples of how oppressed white people are.

So oppressed that they'll start a war to continue oppressing black people.

[–]georgeguy007[S] 10ポイント11ポイント  (8子コメント)

The Yogscast podcast just gave out semi-German propaganda for WWI. The usual

  • misinterpreting the famous wilson quote

  • Germany getting fucked over

  • Hitler relying on the Treaty and not Jews as a scapegoat.

[–]ComradeFrunzeHitler makes fast rap of Argentina 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yogscast gives out so much bad history. Get ready for even more now that they are playing HOI4

[–]georgeguy007[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

At least they say they know they are for entertainment. Silver lining!

[–]frawks24 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

Link/Timestamp?

[–]georgeguy007[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

The latest triforce (#14) podcast, back third. I'm actually having a good discussion with one of them on Reddit about it.

[–]frawks24 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Back third is a lot in a 1 hour 20 minute podcast.

This reminds me of why I don't watch podcasts, I get educational ones but this is just listening to people talk about absolute rubbish for several hours.

[–]georgeguy007[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yeah sorry I don't have a better time stamp. But I mainly do podcast while running so time doesn't matter to me

[–]frawks24 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

fair enough, I've been going through History of Rome and revolutions in my commutes to uni.

[–]georgeguy007[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Just sent a PM to 2 of their members on the podcast. Maybe, maybe, we are lucky enough for them to correct themselves on air.

[–]DirishNicias went in against Sicilians when death was on the line 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Overnight I saw a lot of call-outs come in about the dreaded Foch quote about the Treaty of Versailles from the poison chalice of bad history posts that is TiL. The post itself is of course drawing the wrong conclusions, but to my surprise the second most upvoted post is actually a good correction (the first is disparaging Foch's ability to make predictions about the future based on some other things he said).

But of course nothing stimulates the "I must write something deep" senses like some bad history, so later in the thread we have this classic "We Forced Those Poor Germans Into WW2", which luckily got a quick slap-down post following it.

BTW in case you want a meatier correction from our own ranks there is this excellent post by Elos_ from a year ago correcting any bad history about this. It would be nice if TiL's automod could look for the word "Foch" in the title of a post and then just auto-post that link right under the damned thing right away. It annoys me how many upvotes this always gets.

[–]JDHoare 17ポイント18ポイント  (13子コメント)

There's been some top World War I Brexit mashup nonsense going around in the last couple of weeks, but the king of it all was a meme showing some mournful soldiers and the legend "British People should not forget the sacrifices of our forefathers #Brexit #VoteLeave #Leave #Somme #Normandy #WW1"

Sadly, it's a picture from the Burma campaign in World War II.

Elsewhere in the endless war on BadHistory, I've confronted the 'Washington wasn't the first President/there were black presidents before Obama' meme. After explaining why they were wrong and calmly (but repeatedly) asking to see their sources over and over again while they ran through the whole catalogue of panicked abuse* they deleted their tweets.

  1. How do you know, were you there?
  2. So called "historians" aren't interested in the truth, only lies.
  3. I bet you don't have any books on Black History on your bookshelf

And my personal favourite:

  1. What do you know about American history, you're in England

FACTS HAVE NO BORDERS, TRUTH NO NATIONALITY

[–]slendergiantmoray 6ポイント7ポイント  (7子コメント)

I've confronted the 'Washington wasn't the first President/there were black presidents before Obama' meme.

Wait what.

[–]JDHoare 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

[–]slendergiantmoray 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Wow. Have not heard that one. But did John Hanson ever chop down a cherry tree?

[–]SnakeEater14My Source is Liberty Prime 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Check mate colonists.

[–]King_Posner 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

the argument about the presidents being black is absurd, the argument about pre Washington presidents is a historical pedantic one but colorable.

[–]SlavophilesAnonymous 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Not to mention that even if you do take the argument that presidents of the Continental Congress counted as US presidents, there were 16 of them from independence to Washington and John Hanson was the 9th.

EDIT: There were only 15 specific presidents of the continental congress; one served two nonconsecutive terms. That makes John Hanson the 9th.

[–]King_Posner 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

oh yea, it's one of those "small pidgen of fact so I'll expand and enhance it"

[–]DirishNicias went in against Sicilians when death was on the line 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

the king of it all was a meme showing some mournful soldiers and the legend "British People should not forget the sacrifices of our forefathers #Brexit #VoteLeave #Leave #Somme #Normandy #WW1"

I see they're still going for the appeal to emotion rather than any logical argument. I can only hope that the people they were appealing to have learned by now that it is rather hollow rhetoric.

[–]Halocon720Source: Being Alive 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Normandy

I didn't realize WWI stretched until 1944.

[–]DirishNicias went in against Sicilians when death was on the line 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

They caught up with some stragglers there maybe? Bit like those Japanese soldiers they kept finding on islands in the Pacific after WWII.

[–]Halocon720Source: Being Alive 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

How do you spell Hiroo Onoda in ancient Egyptian?

[–]JDHoare 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

There aren't enough characters in a tweet to point out of the key lessons learnt from 1914-16 is that the British Army needed to be placed under a French command structure in order to function more effectively - which the BEF accepted in 1939. That "EU Army" enough for you, pal?

Saw a Wonka meme a few weeks ago saying "So you're telling the country that won two world wars can't survive on its own?" - didn't win two world wars ALONE though did it?

These people...

[–]dandan_noodles1453 WAS AN INSIDE JOB OTTOMAN CANNON CAN'T BREAK ROMAN WALLS 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

I was watching a lecture by Dr. Stephanie McCurry on the politics of the Confederacy, and while it was overall a very interesting presentation, and she's an expert in her field, I can't help but cringe when I come across an argument that's Just Plain Bad from someone who should know better.

It came up when she was talking about the new constitution the confederates made for themselves, and she's of the view that while it was structurally quite similar to the U.S. constitution, there were important differences, and they're fundamentally different documents.

I don't have a problem with that per se. But what got the alarm bells going was that she claimed the Confederate constitution did not allow for secession, because it didn't have a secession clause. She expanded from this to posit that this is evidence for Lincoln's position that no government can make laws allowing for its own dissolution.

You can't view the Confederate constitution in isolation; the framers were all steeped in the U.S. Constitution as they understood it, and it's the most obvious thing in the world if you read it. From there point of view, including a secession clause (after describing the constituent states as sovereign in the preamble) would have been superfluous and dangerous. The U.S. Constitution does not have a secession clause, but the South believed that it was a right reserved to them by the logic of the compact. If they included a secession clause, it would be tantamount to an admission that the U.S. Constitution doesn't allow secession, which would make their whole cause illegitimate.

[–]ibbityStalin was literally Hitler 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Didn't the Confederacy enact a military occupancy of part of Tennessee because that part was trying to leave the Confederacy for the Union and the Confederates didn't like that idea?

[–]dandan_noodles1453 WAS AN INSIDE JOB OTTOMAN CANNON CAN'T BREAK ROMAN WALLS 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't think that's really an inconsistency on their part; the relationship between the state and the federal government was fundamentally different than the relationship between the state and the county, so counties didn't hold the right to secede under the states' rights doctrine.

[–]frenzy1800 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

For more than 20 years I've been convinced that when I was about 14 a textbook I had at school claimed that the battle of Bannockburn was a "draw" but that the English "chose" to withdraw. I've never been able to confirm since and I was educated in the Midlands of England alongside students who neither knew nor cared about Bannockburn so it wouldn't have stuck in their heads either way, but it's angered me ever since.

I'm not even sure it's true anymore. My memory's quite clear about the whole thing, but that doesn't necessarily mean much... But I still get annoyed about it

[–]Grammar-Hitler 9ポイント10ポイント  (7子コメント)

[–]DirishNicias went in against Sicilians when death was on the line 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

I bring you this glorious 13 part rebuttal written by /u/CommanderSection from /r/ShitWehraboosSay (linking to part 13 because it's the last one and it has links to all the previous episodes). It's a great read.

[–]Newepsilon 10ポイント11ポイント  (4子コメント)

Oh sweet Gautama Buddha I just cried a little.

[–]Grammar-Hitler 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

You should enjoy this movie more than its target audience.

[–]Newepsilon 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

My god it is 6 hours long.... I feel like I should watch it and see how long I can go without finding something I can't critique. Taking bets that I don't make it 2 minutes.

[–]Newepsilon 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I made it 30 seconds...

Took me an hour to watch 12 minutes of it having to stop every 15 - 30 seconds to write down some notes. Now I have to actually go and do further research on those notes...

Quick summary

First, imagine the following.

  1. You found this 'documentary' on youtube and not on the site above.

  2. You are an average person who does not study history or have a profound interest in the subject.

If a person met both of those criteria I guarantee they will take the information presented at face value. And that would be... unfortunate. If they made it through the first 10 minutes they would leave with the idea that Hitler was an extraordinary and unique person before he joined the Nazi party. They try to present him as an ordinary person who did extraordinary things. Never mind the fact that this holds true for literally everyone who has or will live on this planet, it's just another piece of evidence to show how Hitler was just like you and me, only better...

Anywho I need a break before I spend any more energy on this least a portal open and I go back in time and buy one of Hitler's paintings.

[–]lestrigone 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I would like to own one of Hitler's paintings.

[–]CaptainCummings 7ポイント8ポイント  (12子コメント)

[–]bugglesley 8ポイント9ポイント  (4子コメント)

My dad emailed me this very article asking the very same question. I wrote a whole essay back so I might as well share it with y'all.

I think that, like all "XYZ doesn't mean what you think it means!!!" articles, it overstates the case by quite a bit. They're really talking specifically about the Declaration of Independence, not the Revolution in general. And it's important to bear in mind that King George (who himself is not really the most relevant, Parliament mostly held sway in the UK and George's overblown role in Revolutionary rhetoric is itself propaganda (as /u/storywonker points out)) is not really going to be swayed one way or the other by this thing... its intended audience is other colonists, and its intended purpose is to get them on board with breaking away from their mother country.

There's nothing really groundbreaking in the facts they cite. Fear of slave insurrections (and later just the black underclass committing violence, the first (not the first, see /u/jgrey12 's comment below) some prominent gun control laws in America were passed after then-governor Reagan was greeted by some armed Black Panthers exercising their second amendment rights outside the CA capitol) has been a bedrock aspect of Southern politics since the first slave was brought here until pretty much the Civil Rights movement (and arguably past that, many people will cast the way that most race riots have historically worked--a few black people cause a ruckus, cause some injuries and property damage, and then the entire white population of the city in question descends on the black part of town indiscriminately murdering and burning it to the ground--punitive measures to keep the subservient population in line). It's not like it was ever not a legitimate fear, either--the widely held view that "if black people were free they'd sit indolent, only moving to murder and steal things from white men and rape white women" is obviously not quite on the mark, but the notion that enslaved or just heinously oppressed people rising up if given a legitimate shot at freedom is really not too outlandish.

Native relations is in a similar vein, while things are very complicated based on time and place, generally relations trend towards warfare. The British, who were really only interested in beaver furs, usually had better relationships with the native populations than the Americans, who were moving into fertile land and killing anyone who tried to go live where they used to live because now they were "trespassing" on land that was "legitimately" purchased by a "totally above the level treaty." This tends to lead to conflict. The British only had to promise things like "hey, if you help us keep the colonists in line, we'll draw an absolute line in the sand at the Appalachians, no settlements beyond that (which was, in fact, a promise used to enlist the natives to fight against the French in the Seven Years War, and which was one of the grievances the colonists had with GB in the first place)." So yes, the Indians had very powerful incentives to commit violence on behalf of the British too--not out of savagery, but out of basic survival instinct.

I think where they go a little too clickbaity is that they seek to completely recast the Declaration.. like everything coming out of the "founders," you can't reduce it to a single aim. They were all, like politicians in all times everywhere, looking out for their interests, which differed pretty greatly. Using the single greatest fear of pretty much everyone living on the periphery (the Natives) and the single greatest fear of the Southerners (slave revolts) is just politics 101 to sell the common man on revolution, especially when the British were legitimately leveraging both of those populations to get the colonials back in line. Like they themselves note, TJ wanted to put in a clause awkwardly blaming George III for saddling them with all the slaves that the plantation owners were buying as quickly as they could be brought across the Atlantic, and there were straight-up abolitionists in the room (which is why the "men of their time" defense always seems reallll suspect to me). There were absolutely those who believed the soaring rhetoric about "all men." They were just perfectly willing to sign onto a document saying whatever they needed to in order to get people to join in the revolution.

At the same time there were absolutely people who signed the DoI and the Constitution who firmly believed Sparta was the absolute model for a Republic--Helot slave underclass included. After all, how can a man truly be free to consider the needs of his State if he has to labor for his bread? Freedom means freedom from toil, and if lesser men have to give up ALL their freedom that the greater ones may experience it fully, then that's just a price they'll we'll have to pay. All the better if the people doing the giving can be defined as non-people. Very convenient.

I dunno I think it's good as an article that's more "here's an angle of the DoI that you might not know" rather than "OMG THE REVOLUTION WAS ABOUT SLAVERY GUYS."

[–]StoryWonkerGunpowder killed the Swiss. This is why their cheese has holes. 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

And it's important to bear in mind that King George is not really going to be swayed one way or the other by this thing

And it's also important to remember that whether or not King George is swayed doesn't really matter. While the King's support for military intervention in America was a boon for the hawks in Parliament, the UK was long past the point where the King was the prime mover in foreign policy decisions. The American narrative of the Revolution focuses a lot on the King, when Royal power within the UK government was on the wane in terms of deciding policy.

[–]Classy_Dolphin 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I would go even further and point out that the Monarchy was basically a figurehead with a bully pulpit by the time of George III. The last time a Monarch exercised the right to deny Royal assent was under queen Anne several decades earlier, and the glorious revolution all the way back in the 17th century had basically confirmed that, if parliament and the Monarch ever disagreed on anything of massive importance, parliament would get its way for certain.

[–]StoryWonkerGunpowder killed the Swiss. This is why their cheese has holes. 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

True, but the monarch continued to have power in politics, and the ability to call a particular figure to call a government would continue to be exercised up until Victoria's reign. The Prince Regent exercised that power to form a minority government at several points, and, while it didn't often happen, ministers could be dismissed by the monarch.

[–]jgrey12 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

the first gun control laws in America were passed after then-governor Reagan was greeted by some armed Black Panthers exercising their second amendment rights outside the CA capitol

I agree with most of what you wrote but this isn't correct. There was important gun control passed before this, not the least of which is the National Firearm Act of 1934. There was also a fair amount of nineteenth century legislation that sought to keep free blacks from owning firearms.

[–]smileymanYou know who's buried in Grant's Tomb? Not the fraud Grant. 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

No. The American Revolution was a complicated affair with people fighting for numerous reasons. The fighting started in New England, which was the most rabid anti-gov't part of the country in 1775 and although there were definitely slaves in NE, the percentage was very small.

For New Englanders it was the over-reaction by the British Parliament to the Boston Tea Party that scared them.

The next most rabid anti-gov't group was probably the Tidewater plantation owners in Virginia. Their motives were different, but I still wouldn't say it was slavery that was the driving force. Their fears of losing their freedoms (in the classical Greek/Roman republican sense, not the modern sense that we understand it) were certainly important. Financial concerns were definitely a big one due to the unfairness and downright nastiness sometimes of the trade laws between England and the colonies.

The Dunmore Proclamation was certainly a strategic misstep as it pushed many who were borderline over the edge into rebellion--but the Proclamation was issued after the rebellion had already begun.

The tldr of it is that there was no one cause, or even a single primary cause that set off the sparks of rebellion and revolution in America in 1775. The issues were multiple and complex and often depended on where you lived and who your friends were as much as anything else.

[–]bugglesley 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I mean, there's two factors at play here. There's "did the revolution start solely because of racism/slavery," which is not really in any way accurate, as you point out. However, I think what the article gets more at is the question "did the Declaration of Independence use racially coded fears of slave insurrections and savage Indian attacks to stoke support for the rebellion," which I think is a yes and is much more what the author intended and supports beyond the clickbait title.

[–]smileymanYou know who's buried in Grant's Tomb? Not the fraud Grant. 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think that's a pretty narrow reading of what the Declaration actually says, especially since the whole document was essentially a grab bag of everything that any of the colonists had ever complained about.

Beyond that, arguing that the Declaration drove anything about the Revolutionary War is poor history in and of itself. The Declaration didn't reach it's exalted status until much later after it was ratified--hell, it took several months for all the delegates to the Continental Congress to actually sign it and some of those that were there during the debates didn't sign it and some of the signatories of the Declaration weren't there during the debates.

The real important event (at least when it came to driving forces behind the Revolution) was the vote to declare independence, and even that was basically a formality by that point.

[–]bugglesley 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Once again, there's a difference between "it ONLY says this" and "it says this."

essentially a grab bag of everything that any of the colonists had ever complained about.

If I make a public statement saying "My neighborhood sucks. There are stray cats, the hamburger joint sucks, and it's overrun with goddamn lazy wops," would you defend me from accusations that I'm a racist because that's a "narrow reading" of what I said and I also talked about hamburgers and cats? The fact that the drafters thought a valid-seeming thing to complain about included "the savage negroes and injuns are comin for ya, the Brits are gonna sicc 'em on ya" says something. It doesn't say "ALL THE FOUNDERS THOUGHT ABOUT NOTHING BUT OPPRESSION AND CAN BE REDUCED TO ALL SUPER RACISTS," but it says something.

the vote to declare independence, and even that was basically a formality by that point.

Exactly. Independence was already a thing. The Declaration was public messaging. If you think appeals to racism will appeal to your public, that says something.

It's kind of weird watching everyone try to weasel their way around this, going to far as to downplay the document we make schoolchildren memorize the preamble to and that was important enough to hide a treasure map on (ha ha). We just celebrated the day it was signed with a national holiday. Whether or not it carries any legal weight (it doesn't), it's a founding document and a cultural touchstone. Also, "yeah it's racist but it's not that important" is a kind of.. awful defense?

The fact that a kitchen-sink list of Reasons to Rebel included exclusionary language meant to stoke fears of The Other, specifically the two scariest Others of the time (and was specifically excised of language critical of slavery), should not be controversial or shocking to anyone. Yet everyone here seems to be acting like it's a fact we should avoid and talk around (There's a lot of other stuff in there too! People joined the Revolution for all kinds of reasons! This document wasn't that important anyway!) rather than look square in the face and acknowledge. What gives?

[–]CaptainCummings 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks for the insight, appreciate you commenting!

[–]Newepsilon 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I can't comment immediately on the the entirety of the article. What I can say is that the authors interpretation of the phrase 'domestic incursion' meant in 1776 is most likely (I'm wagering a good 51%) wrong. Consider that the author gives zero evidence that this phrase has the same understood meaning of slave revolts. Now what we do know is that the use of the word domestic describes in essence what is a family unit. What do we mean by family unit? In this context it could mean a father, mother, children, other family members, servants (that is paid) and even a slave. Perhaps a better definition would be a domestic unit is those who you live with, in so far as at least 1 other person is of family or your spouse. Given this, we might be able to make further sense that the phrase 'domestic incursions' means splitting of the house. That is, family members against family members, servants against servants, slaves against slaves, and any combination of those players.

Also that statement about the king forcing slavery upon the unwitting colonists is perhaps, uh, whitewashing to say the least. It is true that in the original draft Jefferson did rant extensively about the institution of slavery (check out the original here and find the large paragraph towards the bottom that starts, "He has waged cruel war against humanity..."). However it should be noted that this was ultimately cut for various reasons one being that colonists were not about to give up the right to own slaves.

I feel that there is more to this if anyone else wants to push on.

Edit: added a link and did some cleaning up.

[–]Xdeser2Jesus was a Daedra worshiper. 9ポイント10ポイント  (5子コメント)

So, this might be better suited for the Mindless Monday thread but fuck it it's been Tuesday for an hour and a half that shits oldschool.

I'll justify it by saying that I'm providing fodder for the thread I guess.

I've seen the Great War youtube channel brought up alot. Is it actually good history? I've stayed away from it because of the usual..."quality" of youtube history series.

[–]dandan_noodles1453 WAS AN INSIDE JOB OTTOMAN CANNON CAN'T BREAK ROMAN WALLS 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

I was not impressed too much by what I saw, and other users have spotted serious deficiencies. Indy is not super up to speed with the historiography; he doesn't have much understanding in terms of operations and tactics, trots out the lions led by donkeys myth, presents the now widely challenged 'slither into war' perspective, that kind of thing.

I think the project exposes a kind of tragic hubris about trying to churn out hundreds and hundreds of videos a topic as vast as WWI and expecting them to all be good.

[–]MCRMH2 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

He actually put in a quote that touched on the lions led by donkeys/sheep myth in their latest episode (skip to 1:30). I don't know how accurate the episode is as a whole though.

[–]dandan_noodles1453 WAS AN INSIDE JOB OTTOMAN CANNON CAN'T BREAK ROMAN WALLS 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It was good of him to include that quote, and my hope is that he's been learning and improving over the course of the series, but I think I'm still fairy wary of the channel. I hope it has the effect of pulling people to study the conflict more in depth though, even if I wouldn't personally recommend it to people.

[–]Newepsilon 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

The great war Youtube Channel can get into some really detailed and interesting parts about the war considering its recounting the war week by week. This certainly allows for a more in depth analysis of particular events including events left out by mainstream textbooks. I like to think that it's a balanced middle of being able to give greatly detailed information about the war rather than a textbook narrative trying to get across heavy and nuanced details in the span of a classroom lesson. The video series allows for the team to present letters, speeches, reports, photographs, etc that wouldn't normally be in a textbook so we can better understand.

I'd like to say this. This series is far from any other Youtube History series. It far outpaces other series in terms of quality. I genuinely like it. I would say give it a watch. If you get that feeling that, "huh, what the narrator just said doesn't feel right" look into it. Perhaps you will come back and share with us how the series can get things really wrong. Or perhaps you will come back and tell us that everything is all right. I still encourage you to give an episode a watch.

(I have only seen the regular weekly episodes. I have never watched any of the additional episodes about specific topics and cannot comment on those.)