Pedophilia IS NOT acceptable in anarchist circles

neuroeng · 7時間前

If only we could form some sort of society based on moral understandings and band together to protect the weak and unsuspecting.

unpopularculture · 5時間前

I think a lot of this thinking in Anarchist circles comes from things such as Sexual Morality and the Law, which was a radio broadcast in which Foucault, Jean Danet, and Guy Hocquenghem argued for the abolition of the age of consent in France. The main point of their argument was to critique law, with 15 (or any age) seeming like an arbitrary number to draw the line. Their critique extended to the fact that consenting sex between say a 16 year old and a 14 year old was punishable in the legal system, while abusive relationships such as one between a father and a 17 year old daughter would often go unpunished.

I haven't read much about it in a while, but you can find the transcript in many sources and it really is an interesting one. I can see where their arguments come from, but can't agree that it would have been a positive thing to introduce. I'd rather draw an arbitrary line within the legal system than have no line at all within it.

happyFelix · 7時間前

Pedophilia is for ancaps.

thedignityofstruggle · 4時間前

This needed saying?

MooreIsLess · 8時間前

It doesn't help that every time one gets banned, a huge group rushes to defend them and oppose the ban. I'm just sick of them.

d3crypt · 7時間前

I agree with the OP. Advocating the sexual abuse of children is absolutely disgusting.

gamegyro56 · 7時間前

I feel like we shouldn't just say "it's unacceptable" to them, but instead try to explain/understand why it's wrong and a harmful view to have. Also, I go into some very abstracted discussion of this, but I guess csa tw anyway.

I think the problem with their "it's ageism!" argument is that it ignores some facts about the society we live in. A major one is lack of brain development. But I think another major one in this case is the hierarchy imposed onto children. Children are raised with a very strict adult/child hierarchy (even stricter with the parent/child hierarchy). My theory is that the idea of strict hierarchy, lack of awareness of what sex is, and a lack of libido due to the immature sexual development allow the child to be much more easily coerced into sex than an adult (for the most part). And I think, even if it wasn't "forced" and physically painful for the child, the abuse of hierarchy combined with the child's later burgeoning understanding of sex (or, what it's "supposed to be" in Western society) create severe psychological trauma.

I think it's hypothetically possible that if the hierarchical roles and normative sexual understanding in society were different, the consequences may be different (not necessarily good/neutral, though). I still feel these present hierarchies and understandings of sex should be dismantled, but obviously I have no idea how that will affect future csa survivors. I'd hope the effects would not be as bad, but I don't feel that would greatly change the immorality of the action. Stabbing someone in the jungle might lead them to die from untreated wounds, but stabbing someone in front of a hospital is still bad, and it's pointless to stress that "one is worse." And while there is the possibility that the effects would be greatly reduced, this is still purely hypothetical, and far removed from today's society. 100% of all child-adult sexual interactions are unethical (on the part of the adult) and harmful, now and into the foreseeable future.

And unfortunately, I don't think anarchism can treat it as a complete black-and-white issue, because abolition of states and their laws will force communities to consult themselves when presented with these issues (a state can treat 18yo-and-17yo-have-sex very cleanly if the law says 18 is the age of consent, but a voluntary collective wouldn't have strict universal laws like a state, right?).

But those are my ideas, and I'm open to being corrected on them.

Though were you quoting that "man/boy" thing, or did you just make it up? Because if the latter, there might be homophobic undertones in that example you made.

Also, out of curiosity, what do anarchists think about bestiality or necrophilia?

g_s7 · 6時間前

I support free association between certain peoples faces and my fists.

-Enkara- · 1時間前

Oh my gods, this thread is such a clusterfuck.

Grown-ass adults shouldn't be having sex with fucking children or young teenagers, there's a power differential (hierarchy) based on life experience such that you can't be assured of the younger person's informed consent.

Any adult who does that or advocates for it needs a beat down, end of story.

Also can we make this point without calling young folks weak or implying they're unintelligent?

Thanks.

SpookyStirnerite · 7時間前

No, advocating for child sexual abuse is not acceptable in anarchist circles. "Pedophilia" is just a disorder that nobody has any control over.

I'm 100% for automatically banning anyone who advocates for CSA so long we stop lumping people who don't think all pedophiles should be executed in with people who think it's okay to have sex with kids, which is what happens every time topic comes up in r/anarchism.

In the past, when the topic of pedophila has come up here for whatever reason, I've seen maybe only one or two people actually saying that sex abuse is okay who then promptly get downvoted and banned, and dozens of people arguing over the difference between pedophiles and sex abusers and insulting each other.

It's getting to be kind of ridiculous, to be honest. It's one of the things like Monsanto or PrinceKropotkin where whenever I see a thread about it I just roll my eyes and attempt to avoid opening it.

Hyalinemembrane · 4時間前

I can't believe this post actually had to be made on an anarchist sub...

FantasyDuellist · 4時間前

Law and morality are not the same thing. The fact that we are against laws does not mean we are against moral behavior.

Indeed we oppose laws because of morality. For the same reason we also oppose the abuse of children.

professorwarhorse · 4時間前

tbh I don't even see how anarchism can have much of a conclusion beyond "there will be some line in the sand decided from community to community" since anarchism is about decentralization and abolishing hierarchies. Like even now it's def. a thing that's subject from territory to territory. What a weird thing to furiously debate over.

Tyrack · 2時間前

Any relationship where an individual has power over another individual and there is a hierarchy is against anarchist principles. ESPECIALLY if it's between an adult and a child. End of story.

gibbous_maiden · 2時間前

Yes, exactly. All pedophiles need to be six feet under.

insurgentclass · 6時間前

The fact that you even need to make a post like this is very telling.

apple_kicks · 2時間前

Urgh that's fucked up. You're not in love you're taking advantage and raping someone naive and of lower intelligence than you. You're using thier lack of experience and thier reliance on adults for your selfish behaviour. Go to a doctor.

I'm pretty sure anarchists and most left wing people are for age restrictions. Since not laws on age and rights would also mean child labour would be legal.

rleanor_eoosevelt · 2時間前

uh oh. metaanarchism drama going down

phontoron · 3時間前

The topic of pedophilia is impossible to have a civil and reasonable discussion. Its one of the only topics where i feel it is just outright not possible. The idea of a "pedophile" being someone who rapes and kills and abuses children with a huge stache' and glasses has been so ingrained into the idea of the general public that really its like an almost zombie like- knee jerk reaction that people have when the subject is brought up. its literally about as rational as the crusades and witch-hunts in my opinion, we might as well be calling them "savages" or "heretics." The whole Us vs Them mentality is exactly the thing not only ruining every discussion about this ever, but also ruining the people who are pedophiles and causes them to commit the acts you constantly scream about in the first place. Pedophilia is like any other type of sexuality, and if you dont think so and you just think theyre "sick fuckos in the head" then you may as well be saying all gay people or mentally ill are too, but you wouldnt do that now would you. The fact of the matter is, these witch hunts against pedophiles literally do the opposite of help them. Do you really think someone is ever gonna try to talk to someone about it when they know they could get fucking shamed by every person they know for the rest of thier lives? or try to take healthy measures in reducing the risk of them ever doing something and being healthy with thier relationships to kids? when they are constantly bombarded with hate and shame? Not only is this CAUSING the abuses to happen by the repression of it within and the witchhunting, its also killing any good dialogue about hierarchical relationships between age, and discussions about the nature of sexuality and what it means to be prepared for love or sex. Or even if its possible to have a non abusive and non hierarchical relationship with a minor. No lets just fucking scream and have stupid knee jerk reactions about it and kill every discussion we come across with moral dogmatism and "holier than thou" arguments. In an anarchist society, these kinds of things would be totally fucking different, at least hopefully, and they should be handled on case by case basis because lumping everyones general experience together kills the individual.

anarchism4thewin · 4時間前

So, how exactly is a child defined here? Are you going by the crazy definition where a 17 year old or a 15 year old is a child?

Hermanissoxxx · 2時間前

After reading all of the OP'S comments, I get the impression that they are projecting- like the closeted preacher condemning the 'gays' to the fiery pits of hell.

Skeptical_Berserker · 5時間前

It's also another reason anarchists are viewed as criminal degenerates by society at large.

PositiveAnomie · 4時間前

I would like to reiterate that paedophilia is for ancaps. Thank you.

rumcore · 7時間前

"It's wrong, end of story."

Isn't that antithetical to the precepts?

thefinestpos · 2時間前

Just to be clear, this doesn't go into possible methods/treatments for curbing pedophilia at large?

pubies · 1時間前

Take it to /r/namblanarchism

ProudMeninist · 1時間前

Yes, but unless acted on it should be treated as a mental illness, not a crime for simply being a pedophile.

ferkolepu · 1時間前

So what do you do when a 12 year old explicitly says they want to have sex with a 15 year old. Or a 17 year old. Where is the line drawn? At what point can you no longer respect the child's wishes. This leads to the bigger question...When a self owning human being wants to do something when can you say they can't do it? I'd argue they can't do it when it hurts someone else like murder or theft (or in a more roundabout way the exclusive ownership of the means of production.) Please don't slander me as a pedo. I have no interest in young children I'm simply curious about the ethics of this whole debate.

Faolinbean · 1時間前

Shitfuck why is this even a goddamn issue ugh

Alyte · 1時間前

I find pedophilia just as repulsive as you do, but why this attitude? surely you can reason and know better? if it's consensual then you're simply being intrusive. you're no better than a homophobic. you find it disgusting for some reason or another and so you dictate you're right and they are wrong because you are right and because it is disgusting.

if it isnt consensual that's a whole other story. I also have difficulty imaging many cases where it IS consensual. however, when it is, fuck off.

Bastianvk · 43分前

Im in no way defending pedophilia but this post really reflect how taboos attached to a certain era are so strong that even in anti-social groups have support.

Meedina · 23分前

To be honest I want to learn about anarchism but I avoid this sub for reasons like this. Really pedophilia or ephebowhateverthefuckphilia like pedophiles call it is really disturbing in these circles where we should strive to be progressive.
This is ancap/libertarian material seriously.
Also this sub gets frequently posted to /r/ShitLiberalsSay, not because you're a lib-soc or anything related to anarchism but for things like cop apologia. In my country anarchists are to be reckon with, when they say ACAB they don't mean "ACAB but not your father/uncle/friend, also that poor man died", no, they mean ACAB and they throw some molotov at them. I was expecting the same kind of anarchism here. Or maybe you got brigaded that day, I don't know, but it's seriously refutting.

796573627574 · 4時間前

I'm against child abuse and I also feel like these discussions fall into a lot of ageism. Generally I think it would be good to have a space for the kids in question to express their own opinions.

UrsusArctos · 1時間前

I m disgusted with all these pedo apologists. Wtf /r/anarchism. I thought you were better than this?!

StephanFortin · 3時間前

The fact that this has to be said is ridiculous.

Makonar · 4時間前

But what is a "kid" ? Is a 17 year old girl a kid? Or even an 18 year old? If it's legal for a 16 year old girl to get married. Is she a kid or not? Where is the line, between pedophilia and something lega. I believe we can all agree that pedophile is attracted to children, and it is morally wrong to support such relationships, when the partner is not in an age which he / she can give an informed consent. But when we get to actuall legality - we can oppose judges putting 40 year old men, who had sex with 16 year old girls in jail, but letting 40 year old women who had sex with 16 year old boys go free. We can oppose justice system actually saying 18 if fine, but 17 you go to jail. Anarchy does not mean we have to abide the rules the goverment set up. Just like we don't agree that 20 year old people are not allowed to drink, we don't agree giving beer to 6 or 8 year olds, right? I believe... people can choose what good for themselves. Some people make stupid choices - a 14 year old girl, had sex with hed 14 year old boyfriend and she made a mistake, because she got pregnant and the boy said he does not have to be the father - and the law is absolutely ok with this. But if the 26 year old would have a 14 year old gf, and she would get pregnant, isntead of being able to support her with his income, and raise the child if they chose to do so... he would go to jail.... and this is what anarchy opposes - goverment setting up laws, that prohibit you a freedom of choice, of making mistakes, of deciding for yourself. We all agree and inherently know that children are not fit to drive a car, drink alcohol and have sex. But young and older teens all do it still - and all of them have the option to do it with their peers or even use adults to do it, if their peers are not capable to do it. Teens do it all the time and society has not collapsed. If you ever gave a jobless or a homeless person money to buy you beer - you cannot argue that people under 18 or 21 are not allowed to drink. If you had sex with your gf or bf at 14, 15, 16 or 17 - you cannot argue, that people who have sex with a 16 year old girl should go to jail. If your dad, gave you lessons in driving since you were 10 and even let you drive when you were 13, that one time you wen't on vacations and it was in the middle of a field or a forest - you have no right to tell 17 year old, who knows how to drive, that he can only do it after he turns 18. That is what anarchy opposes. No one (sane at least) is saying we should all go and have sex with 5 year olds, give alcochol and drugs to a 10 year old, or let 12 year olds drive. But at some point, people are capable to take care of themselves. And if they have skills, or want to do it - you really cannot stop them. So why punish more responsible people for being around younger people? Sure, some of them will be up to no good - just as some teens are - it's not only 40 year old men who rape young girls, 15 year old boys do it too. Just as some 13 year old girls are able to lie to older boys that they are actually 16. Sure, not all of them.. but some are. And some will. This is the society we are talking about - there are dumb, and evil people in it. But goverment should stay out of peoples private business and never tell them what is good or bad - let the free people choose for themselves, make mistakes and learn from them. And yes, we actually should allow for some sort of justice and evil act prevention system, but it should be more flexible depending on a case by case system and peoples inteligence. There is a vast difference between a rapist who lured an 8 year old boy and raped him, than a 17 year old girl, nabbing herself a rich 36 year old boyfriend, or a 40 year old female teacher having sex with a 17 year old boy - who is built like a bodybuilder, and has erection 24/7. Right not, they are all criminals and should go to jaill - and this is something we should oppose.

At-LowDeSu · 5時間前

Define Anarchism: belief in the abolition of all government and the organization of society on a voluntary, cooperative basis without recourse to force or compulsion.

I dont' see the part where it says 'but also follows the moral opinions of reddit user ZombieBerkman' but maybe i'm not looking hard enough

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