2893
2894

Linden shuts down vegetarian spreading lies about meat (imgur.com)

Mattersofdarkness が 投稿

上位 200 件のコメント全て表示する 252
並べ替え:
ベスト
トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A

[–]Sharp_Espeon 486ポイント487ポイント  (83子コメント)

I am a vegetarian, and I completely agree with Linden. Cooking meat was a critical evolutionary step, and without it (and the development of fire, for that matter) we would still be in the Paleolithic era.

I have nothing against people who eat meat, and I simply do not consume it for personal reasons. I have plenty of meat-eating friends who do not criticize me for my views, so why should I attack them for theirs?

[–]Kyoraki 99ポイント100ポイント  (26子コメント)

Didn't cooking meat also act as a way of pre-digesting it, which allowed for us to have a smaller digestive system in favour of things like larger lungs for better survivability? I remember seeing something like that as another explanation as to why we can't eat a lot of raw meat anymore.

[–]Myrmec 46ポイント47ポイント  (9子コメント)

I think we spend a lot of energy on our big ol brains. I don't remember the specifics, but the whole cooking thing is connected to powering our CPU.

[–]Hoessayoh 16ポイント17ポイント  (6子コメント)

Our jaws didn't have to be so big. that made space for our brains to get bigger.

[–]buildzoid [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

The brain uses up about 20% of your body's total energy consumption.

[–]damanlyguy [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

and it weighs about 2% of our total body weight for comparison

[–]YouAndMeToo 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

Kinda. Heating meat denatures the protein fibers, which makes them easier to digest.

[–]Hips_n_nips [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The greatest advantage to cooking is it kills a lot of parasites. Wild animals are normally teaming with parasites that cooking will kill.

p.s. don't eat a raw crayfish to win a drunk bet with your friends. It could kill you. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5948a1.htm

[–]PepperJackson [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I don't know about the effects of compacting the digestive system, but a paper recently came out about the evolutionary importance of eliminating unneccessary chewing from our lifestyles. A summary can be found here.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/03/how-sliced-meat-drove-human-evolution

[–]guinader [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Wait so when our parents told us chew your food before swallowing? I should have replied " my evolutionarily traits allows me to chew less and eat faster"

[–]PepperJackson [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Not really, the evolutionary steps were more related to how the cooking and preparation of meat allows us to not spend upwards of 6 hours per day solely dedicated to chewing.

コメントをもっと表示する (11 返事)

    [–]GLaDOS_IS_MY_WAIFU 7ポイント8ポイント  (5子コメント)

    Seconded!

    Ironically though, I mentioned that I didn't eat meat once to an acquaintance (we were in the same friend group) when we were deciding what we were going to eat for lunch.

    He decided to go on a full-blown anti-vegetarian rant - "vegetarians aren't natural! We're supposed to eat meat! Why do all vegetarians have to force their beliefs on others?" - while I'm just standing there wondering if we should have pizza or burgers and fries.

    [–]capitalsigma [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

    didn't eat meat

    burgers

    ?

    [–]GLaDOS_IS_MY_WAIFU [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    The whole group was going out for lunch, so I was considering options for everyone. Plus, most burger places serve veggie burgers!

    [–]kayschus [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    black bean burgers for life

    [–]-DarylDixonsEyes- [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

    Veggie burgers my guy

    [–]MasterUnholyWar 25ポイント26ポイント  (4子コメント)

    I'm also a vegetarian that doesn't give my meat-eating friends any grief, yet some of them act personally offended that I don't eat meat. Not sure how their brains work, on that level...

    [–]egbertincognito 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

    People have to be dicks about something or their heads will explode. That's, like, science. /s

    [–]ModeratorsAreDouches 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I'm also a vegetarian that doesn't give my meat-eating friends any grief, yet some of them act personally offended that I don't eat meat. Not sure how their brains work, on that level...

    It's a tribal mentality.

    [–]a7neu [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    https://www.reddit.com/r/quityourbullshit/comments/4tc7qe/linden_shuts_down_vegetarian_spreading_lies_about/d5gaf41?st=iqrexqno&sh=9ac5bdba

    That is the answer, apparently...

    コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

      [–]Animal2 27ポイント28ポイント  (17子コメント)

      I think the problem a lot of meat eaters have with vegetarians and vegans is that one of the more common (although not exclusive) reasons for avoiding meat/animals is that it's morally bad to kill/use animals. So in a lot of cases, even if there's no outward criticism of meat eaters (although there IS plenty of criticism) the basic ideas indict meat eaters as being bad people for eating meat or using animal products. As a meat eater, it's hard to realistically believe that someone who believes eating meat is morally bad doesn't automatically believe I'm bad for doing it, so that's why a lot of people hate on vegans especially, because why wouldn't you hate on someone who (you tend to assume, sometimes incorrectly) basically thinks you're a terrible person.

      [–][削除されました]  (5子コメント)

      [deleted]

        [–]Slimqnn 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

        And the angel of the lord came unto me, snatching me up from my place of slumber. And took me on high, and higher still until we moved to the spaces betwixt the air itself. And he brought me into a vast farmlands of our own Midwest. And as we descended, cries of impending doom rose from the soil. One thousand, nay a million voices full of fear. And terror possessed me then

        And I begged, "Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured screams?"

        And the angel said unto me, "These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots! You see, Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is the holocaust."

        [–][削除されました]  (3子コメント)

        [deleted]

          [–]LucindaGlade [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

          WAIT, who's murdering people here?

          [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

          [deleted]

            [–]LucindaGlade [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            And you're equating killing a person to killing a pig.

            [–]a7neu [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            Do you also take it personally when people speak out against the ethics of clothing manufacturers that you buy from? Do you hate on anyone who is morally opposed to anything you do? (interpret as a general "you" if you are not expressing your own feelings)

            Hating on polite vegans or vegetarians because simply because they express moral opposition to killing animals unnecessarily (something that has been deplored by people like Pythagoras in 500 BC) is hypersensitive and comes off as insecure IMO.

            [–]evillampshade -3ポイント-2ポイント  (3子コメント)

            That's silly though, right? It's like saying vegetarians should eat meat so that they don't make us meat eaters feel looked down on.

            [–]lapfaptap 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

            No? Who's saying that?

            [–]r2devo [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

            That's not it at all, they are saying that vegetarians and vegans should make clear the distinction between disagreeing with the eating of meat and disliking people for doing it, the same goes for meat eaters.

            [–]Neebay -4ポイント-3ポイント  (4子コメント)

            I don't believe in bad people, even if I don't condone something they do.

            コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

              [–]VismundxCygnus 20ポイント21ポイント  (14子コメント)

              Sadly, it feels like you're the exception and not the rule. As a meat eater, I feel the same way you do. Your diet habits don't concern me unless they affect me in some way.

              Be a vegan all you want, man.

              [–]hobskhan 15ポイント16ポイント  (11子コメント)

              Earlier today, I was stir-frying together a bunch of leftovers, with some fresh chili powder and other Cajun-y, BBQ-y flavors. As I was eating it, I realized much to my surprise that it was 100% vegan. And then guess what I did?

              I finished eating it, and got on with my life.

              Later, I had homemade bacon lardon mac and cheese for dinner. Oh man was that good.

              [–]VismundxCygnus 9ポイント10ポイント  (5子コメント)

              I'm not a fan of bacon but that sounds pretty good.

              I just like food and I don't care what other people like. I understand why vegetarians are the way they are but I wouldn't try and change their mind. It's just not my business.

              [–]OVerLoRDI -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

              I'm not a fan of bacon

              ಠ_ಠ

              [–]VismundxCygnus 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

              Exactly the reaction I get every time I mention it. I'm sorry, internet. I'm just not that into bacon.

              [–]oliviathecf [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

              I'm a vegetarian who stopped eating meat purely because I never liked it haha, so I'm with you. Bacon was always too fatty and greasy and heavy.

              [–]PM_ME_HOT_DADS [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

              American bacon is just way too fatty in general. Give me some good back bacon, that actually has meat on it, instead of just strips of fat.

              [–]VismundxCygnus [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

              Yeah, something about the taste doesn't sit right with me most times. That being said, I'm down for applewood smoked bacon on a burger when the mood strikes.

              [–]Poromenos 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

              I realized much to my surprise that it was 100% vegan. And then guess what I did? I finished eating it, and got on with my life.

              Oh yeah? Then why are we hearing about it?!

              [–]hobskhan 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Hehe, y'all aren't acquaintances on Facebook. You guys are my super special inner circle.

              But don't tell nobody 😏

              コメントをもっと表示する (3 返事)

                [–]Sharp_Espeon 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                Thank you :)

                [–]VismundxCygnus 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                I'll extend that courtesy so long as it's mutual. I love people regardless of if I agree with them or not.

                [–]MaritMonkey 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                I can't resist a chance to post this relevant SMBC.

                [–]SpaceGhost1992 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Meat eater here with vegan friends. They never give me shit, they just don't eat it because of either personal choices, or for reasons like they get diarrhea and stuff like that when they eat meat.

                [–]s2514 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                I have a vegan friend like that. You would never even know if you don't eat with her a few times because she doesn't feel the need to shove it down everyone's throats.

                [–]superdirtyusername [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                I am a vegetarian with benefits.

                Benefits being meat.

                [–]ModeratorsAreDouches 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                The response isn't entirely complete however. The ability to digest grains and complex carbohydrates helped people to take in a relatively high amount of calories, and survive as well.

                http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1086/682587

                "...cooked starch, a source of preformed glucose, greatly increased energy availability to human tissues with high glucose demands, such as the brain, red blood cells, and the developing fetus.

                [–]theseekerofbacon -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Reasonable.

                [–]blablaorka -5ポイント-4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                /r/AsABlackMan

                コメントをもっと表示する (3 返事)

                  [–]stachldrat 68ポイント69ポイント  (9子コメント)

                  You could make exactly the same kind of poster addressing vegans, depicting a mouth stuffed full with all the shitty parts of plants nobody likes and then telling them to grow or pick all their food themselves and eat them whole and raw. You think meat is the only thing that needs cooking and seasoning? Let's see you eat and enjoy a meal of freshly picked unprepared brussel sprouts.

                  [–]royharvey 28ポイント29ポイント  (3子コメント)

                  If we were meant to potatoes we would be eating them dirty and crunchy raw.

                  [–]stonekeep [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                  Mmmm, those fresh, raw potatoes just picked from the ground. So tasty. Enjoy your diarrhea.

                  I've actually eaten almost a whole raw potato when I was a kid. I don't recommend doing that.

                  コメントをもっと表示する (3 返事)

                    [–]michaeladams94 30ポイント31ポイント  (24子コメント)

                    I can only stress what /u/Sharp_Espeon said in a different comment. I am a vegetarian myself, been one for most of my life. People who don't think that eating meat has been crucial to our development as a species are either delusional or ignorant of biological concepts.

                    Once humans have invented fire and were able to consume calorie-dense food such as meats safely, the human species experienced the ability to evolve and select for traits that were not intended to benefit the goal of mere survival (slow metabolism, small frames) and instead benefit the advancement of the species through quality of life increases (larger brains, larger bodies, etc.) - eating meat has made it possible for us to (for the most part) move beyond the struggle to survive.

                    That being said, ultimately people who eat meat must be aware of where their meat comes from. And in the vast majority of cases, to me, the ethical concerns that come with it are irreconcileable with the relatively minor benefits you get out of it being tasty. It is clear that you can live healthy on a meatless diet, and the vast majority of people in the western world have the luxury of being able to choose freely what they want to eat. So it is up to each individual to decide whether or not the killing of sentient beings is really worth it to you. We aren't living in a hunter-gatherer society anymore, so the evolutionary argument for eating meat doesn't really hold up.

                    [–]Slimqnn [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

                    And the angel of the lord came unto me, snatching me up from my place of slumber. And took me on high, and higher still until we moved to the spaces betwixt the air itself. And he brought me into a vast farmlands of our own Midwest. And as we descended, cries of impending doom rose from the soil. One thousand, nay a million voices full of fear. And terror possessed me then

                    And I begged, "Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured screams?"

                    And the angel said unto me, "These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots! You see, Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is the holocaust."

                    [–]PantheraLupus -1ポイント0ポイント  (16子コメント)

                    You nearly made it, then you got pretentious in the end.

                    [–]cluttered_desk [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                    people should be mindful of their lifestyle

                    "Jeez stop being so pretentious"

                    [–]michaeladams94 11ポイント12ポイント  (14子コメント)

                    How is it pretentious to point out that killing is a necessary reality to eating meat? I don't put much thought into my diet, I just don't eat meat. It's not like it's a struggle for me that I need to be proud of in overcoming. The fact of the matter is - meat has to come from somewhere, and whether or not people choose to ignore that doesn't change reality.

                    Edit: I don't judge people for eating meat. I don't care, like I said - it's a personal decision. I just urge people to make that decision with reality in mind. It's not worth it for me, it might be for others.

                    [–]TheTrashMan 4ポイント5ポイント  (9子コメント)

                    Because he doesn't want to feel guilty about murdering things for no reason.

                    [–]Turterra [スコア非表示]  (8子コメント)

                    What do you mean no reason? We eat them.

                    Edit: Apparently eating is rape. A vast vast majority of the population eat meat, we live in a world of rape.

                    [–]ryancalibur [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

                    If you raped a woman, you'd probably get some pleasure for it.

                    Is that an acceptable reason to you?

                    I'd say not.

                    When someone says "for no reason", it is shorthand for "no good reason". Don't be obtuse.

                    Edit:

                    In response to everyone who dumbly thinks I have said "eating meat is equivalent to rape" (we'll ignore the fact that the meat and dairy industry involves lots of animal rape but whatever)

                    There is such a thing as "qualitative" and "quantitative" comparisons. These come up pretty often in moral philosophy.

                    A qualitative comparison is referring to something's quality, obviously. Its type or its nature. This means that for example, pinching someone and punching someone in the face are "qualitatively" the same because they both involve harming someone else physically.

                    Quantitatively means referring to something's quantity, or its number. Pinching and punching are not quantitatively the same because getting punched is worse. It causes more pain, and so on.

                    When I compared eating meat to rape I was making a qualitative distinction - both are actions that put the pleasures of the self (that can be gained in other ways) above the livelihood and rights of others.

                    Quantitatively, I have not commented.

                    [–]michaeladams94 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                    Well this whole discussion only goes into really murky waters. There are many questions you have to ask yourself when you discuss this kind of topic from an ethical standpoint

                    -Do animals feel pain? (Certainly)

                    -Do animals have minds?

                    -Do animals have emotions? Character? Goals?

                    -Does a potential lack of emotions diminish their worth?

                    -If not, does it mean that animals deserve the same basic rights as humans?

                    -What would be the implications of them deserving the same rights as us be on domesticated animals? Does that mean we enslave our pets?

                    There are plenty of things that are very much up to the individual to decide, and more things where the science is still out. We simply don't know how far we should take animal rights. All you can ask of people is to consider their positions. And I don't think that equating eating a steak to raping someone is gonna achieve that.

                    [–]Turterra [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                    This is reddit, the world is black and white.

                    We don't need your sensible discussions. Obvious_/s

                    [–]smoke_crack [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                    Eating meat = rape. Nice.

                    [–]Hideout_TheWicked [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                    That's a horrible example to use.

                    [–]PronounciationIsKey [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

                    this just in, eating meat is the same as rape

                    [–]ryancalibur [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                    Have you ever heard of "qualitative" vs "quantitative" distinctions?

                    The answer, obviously, is no.

                    When you have no experience in moral discussion, have never read a moral text, have never studied morality, have no background in moral theory or moral academia, why do you bother entering into the discussion?

                    What a dumb and incorrect response. Don't waste my time or yours any further. Read a fucking book.

                    [–]Turterra [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                    I didn't realize I need a degree to have an opinion.

                    [–]squarepush3r [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                    I'll call you out on this, why do you assume eating meat makes you smart?

                    [–]michaeladams94 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                    It doesn't. On an individual scale, at least.

                    It did, however, make us smart on an evolutionary scale. Every organism is only given a certain "allowance" of resources they get to invest into themselves. That allowance is largely based on your caloric intake. The fact of the matter is: Meat is very calorie dense, and killing and cooking a deer will give you roughly five times the calories that a pile of legumes of the same weight would give you. Once you have perfected your ability to hunt effectively, suddenly you don't have that strict limitation on your resources. There suddenly isn't any selective pressure on having a very efficient metabolism and a small frame that doesn't burn many calories. This freedom gave humans the ability to invest more resources into our brains. It is not the only contributing factor, of course, but it is a contributing factor nonetheless.

                    [–]LoraRolla 92ポイント93ポイント  (41子コメント)

                    Everyone involved in this picture is wrong and no bullshit has been called. What?

                    [–]oss_spy 43ポイント44ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    Welcome to /r/quityourbullshit, where bullshit is optional and proving how right you are is the only thing that matters.

                    Also, apparently, bullshit is still called even if someone is wrong because research and shit

                    [–]Castun 22ポイント23ポイント  (37子コメント)

                    Are you saying this Linden guy is wrong too?

                    [–]Sherlock633 82ポイント83ポイント  (20子コメント)

                    When you cook meat you are not increasing the caloric content of the meat. You are denaturing proteins and liquifying some of the fat in the meat and since some of that fat drips off if anything you are decreasing the calories in the meat.

                    [–]Kirk_Kerman 66ポイント67ポイント  (5子コメント)

                    That's true, but it also makes the nutrition in it more bioavailable since the proteins more readily break down.

                    [–]LoraRolla 16ポイント17ポイント  (4子コメント)

                    Bioavailable is a word I'm going to start working into conversations.

                    [–]AdrianBlake 38ポイント39ポイント  (1子コメント)

                    Hey baby, are you bioavailable?

                    [–]Kirk_Kerman 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                    Another fantastic one is defenestration: The act of throwing someone out a window

                    [–]TheImminentFate [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                    Huh.

                    The formal definition is "the action of throwing someone out of a window."

                    The informal definition is "the action or process of dismissing someone from a position of power or authority."

                    I would've sworn it would be the other way around, but I guess that's English for you.

                    [–]Tagichatn 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    Cooking it makes it easier to digest so while you aren't increasing the calories of the meat, you are reducing the calories you spend in digestion.

                    [–]DankMemeSlayer 21ポイント22ポイント  (8子コメント)

                    I think Linden meant that cooking it increases its calorific "value" as in it has less empty calories. I may be wrong though.

                    [–]Castun 38ポイント39ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    Not quite, your body has to exert more of it's own energy to digest raw meat, so you get less net calories than if you cook it.

                    [–]ErikaBrandy 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

                    There is no such thing as an 'empty calorie'. A calorie is a unit of energy.

                    [–]ricksteer_p333 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                    I think we should have a term like "empty calorie". There are indeed calories that we don't digest, and depending on the state of the food you're consuming, a fraction of those calories exit your system "undigested".

                    Unfortunately, "empty calorie" already exists, and u/TheImminentFate pointed out

                    [–]TheImminentFate [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                    A quick search would've show you that empty calories are a thing.

                    From Wikipedia:

                    In human nutrition, the term empty calories applies to food such as solid fats and/or added sugars supplying food energy but little or no other nutrition

                    [–]AtlantaGeo -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

                    Not if you cook meat the way my mother would. With loads of spices and veggies and butter and beef stock in a slow cooker for 6 hours

                    [–]blablaorka 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

                    Just like they did in my days back in 249,900 B.C.

                    [–]gorkt 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    But you are making it far easier to eat, so you can a larger quantity in a shorter period of time.

                    [–]heyimrick [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                    He's saying you eat more because it's easier to eat, thus increasing the calories you intake.

                    [–]TheMiddleEastBeast [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                    Maybe (and I strongly suggest MAYBE) they meant the fact that when you cook meat it becomes tender. That's usually what cooking is almost always about. Chewing raw meat VS chewing cooked meat varies greatly in terms of how long it takes. That's why when Homo Erectus began to truly form they were seen to have much notably weaker jaw muscles because that's when the Homo genus began to cook food.

                    [–]evillampshade -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    I don't think the original post said that "eating meat is unnatural". It's saying that the way we eat food today is unnatural, to take the wind out of the "we are naturally carnivores" argument. I'm not saying it's true or compelling, but it's a harmless enough point.

                    [–]LoraRolla 17ポイント18ポイント  (11子コメント)

                    About some of it, yeah. Another poster above me covered it in detail though, in a pretty concise manner. Post seems to be gone, so I'll go over the main point. While the OP tries to insist that eating meat is unnatural, which it isn't, Linden tries to go the complete other way. Humans are omnivores, neither carnivores nor herbivores.

                    What that means is we can pretty much survive EITHER WAY. THAT is the evolutionary advantage. Not eating meat, but the fact that if needed we can eat meat, and if needed we can eat vegetation.

                    To add to that I feel like he underplays the importance of vegetation. Hunter-gatherer societies were primarily eating fruits and vegetation found during foraging. When you're a tribe you hunt FOR THE TRIBE, so you have to bring in game enough for the whole tribe, which means you hunt large animals and share with everyone. Hunts weren't successful 100% of the time, nor even often sometimes. Which is also why many were nomadic, allowing them to go as the seasons and needs required. The image we have of big, strong, meat eating tribesman is kind of off.

                    He actually has the dates we started cooking meat wrong. I'm not exactly sure where he got it from? It's really weird. I thought it looked off, maybe just because his dislike of commas, but he appears to say 2,500,000 years ago people began cooking meat. I double checked into it and it appears that cooking meat occurred anywhere between 500k years ago and 2 million years ago.

                    It is true that it would be difficult for humans to live a fully vegetarian diet back in ye olde days, but it's not like they ate meat anywhere near as much as we do now in America where it's a staple of 2-3 out of the meals a day and sometimes snacks, and multiple servings for dinner, and even your entres need to have meat.

                    It IS believed that meat allowed us the energy to grow a bigger brain/more brain power however have you ever heard of meat being called a 'brain food'. There are plenty of veggies that are good for thinking as well and we can't downplay the importance of them.

                    In terms of meat we eat today, it's not at all similar to what we would have eaten back then.

                    I hope that covers things enough for you. I too also despise the term 'natural'.

                    [–]thirdangletheory 7ポイント8ポイント  (4子コメント)

                    Hunter-gatherer societies were primarily eating fruits and vegetation found during foraging.

                    This is false and seems be getting repeated in several comments.

                    ... most (73%) of the worldwide hunter-gatherers derived > 50% (³56–65%) of their subsistence from animal foods (hunted and fished), whereas only 13.5% of worldwide hunter-gatherers derived > 50% (³56–65%) of their subsistence from gathered plant foods. Of the 229 hunter-gatherer societies listed in the Ethnographic Atlas, 58% (n = 133) obtained ³66% of their subsistence from animal foods in contrast with 4% (n = 8) of societies that obtain ³66% of their subsistence from gathered plant foods. No hunter-gatherer population is entirely or largely dependent (86–100% subsistence) on gathered plant foods, whereas 20% (n = 46) are highly or solely dependent (86–100%) on fished and hunted animal foods.

                    Cordain et al. (2000) Plant-animal subsistence ratios and macronutrient energy estimations in worldwide hunter-gatherer diets. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 71:682–92.

                    Credit to /u/Chrythes for the source.

                    [–]LoraRolla [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

                    I don't know if the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition has one up on anthropologists, in which Cultural Anthropologists studied things like this at well and going to college and taking anthropology classes is where I got my information. I went to college in 2011, so my information appears to be more recent.

                    [–]thirdangletheory [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                    I'd be interested in seeing a source that contradicts that one, then.

                    I'm in grad school for physical anthropology with a minor in biology. All the information I've read and related classes I've taken supports the assertion that hunter-gatherers rely more on meat than plants.

                    [–]LoraRolla [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                    I've been doing a soft search to see if I can find the info. No real luck from an actual, scientific article and I really don't want to link random websites. Google Scholar hasn't helped much. True or not I probably won't find much without access to any of my old books or a college library. It could be that I'm wrong. My teacher was a douche, so he doesn't have that in his favor.

                    [–]heartbraden [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                    • Anthropology class et al. (2011) college class.
                    • LoraRolla (2016) Reddit.com

                    Checks out.

                    [–]gamingwars 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

                    "He actually has the dates we started cooking meat wrong. I'm not exactly sure where he got it from? It's really weird. I thought it looked off, maybe just because his dislike of commas, but he appears to say 2,500,000 years ago people began cooking meat. I double checked into it and it appears that cooking meat occurred anywhere between 500k years ago and 2 million years ago."

                    i'll count the zero's for you 1,2,3,4 equals 250,000. Doesn't seem extremely wrong imo.

                    Also: Evidence for fire and cooked food dates between 300,000 - 1.8 million years ago. So it seems dates are all over the place.

                    [–]squarepush3r [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                    It is true that it would be difficult for humans to live a fully vegetarian diet back in ye olde days, but it's not like they ate meat anywhere near as much as we do now in America where it's a staple of 2-3 out of the meals a day and sometimes snacks, and multiple servings for dinner, and even your entres need to have meat.

                    It IS believed that meat allowed us the energy to grow a bigger brain/more brain power however have you ever heard of meat being called a 'brain food'. There are plenty of veggies that are good for thinking as well and we can't downplay the importance of them.

                    why would it be difficult, when all human ancestor primates are vegetarian? If meat gives you such a big brain, how come lions aren't so damn smart?

                    [–]LoraRolla [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                    It would be difficult because you had to eat what was there and sometimes there isn't a lot of stuff to gather. Like one major theory is that vegetation in Africa started to die off so they began incorporating more meat. Meat is a little more hardy than veggies, so it's good for you once in a while.

                    It wasn't all about meat, it just helped.

                    [–]Murgie 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                    So what you're saying is that Linden wasn't actually wrong by any stretch of the imagination, they just didn't emphasis the consumption of vegetation during a time period they only passingly addressed as much as you would have liked?

                    [–]LoraRolla [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                    No, I'm saying he's not right and bending things his way so that he can appear more right while not calling out bullshit. I mean come on, it's a fucking picture that can't be construed as potentially serious or true or liable to mislead anyone in any sense. This is pretty much "Take that, vegetarians/vegans!"

                    It'd basically be akin to if you took a screenshot of your response to me and then posted it on the sub and said "Look I called Bullshit!!!!". Except you might have half a notch more credibility.

                    [–]AdrianBlake -5ポイント-4ポイント  (2子コメント)

                    yes. Early humans got most of their calories from vegetation, meat was a rarity. And there have been purely vegetarian civilisations for thousands of years so it's not only a modern possibility.

                    [–]Castun 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                    I'm not disagreeing, but I've seen several people throw around this statement without any links or cited sources.

                    [–]America-Numba-1 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                    hunters get bigger brains because we needed to do more complex shit than pick berries. if we only ate berries and grass and dirt we'd only ever be as smart as elephants.

                    コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                      [–]evillampshade 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Yes, my reaction too. This was unsatisfying -- I wanted bullshit being called out and just got two people disagreeing on an issue.

                      [–]asharwood [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                      How are they wrong. You say no bs called. What is bs?

                      [–]schnupfndrache7 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      It's called beef tartar

                      [–]slim_gt86 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                      Pretty sure vegetarians are seasoning vegetables and cooking them as well. Unless they're outside chewing on grass.

                      [–]miki100200 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      Welcome to /r/quityourbullshit, where bullshit is still called even if someone is wrong and no bullshit has been called.

                      [–]GumdropGoober [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                      I kill small animals with my hands, like the first person in OP's image demanded, and all that happens is that I'm called a psychopath!

                      [–]AdrianBlake 13ポイント14ポイント  (23子コメント)

                      Sorry but what's bullshit or spreading lies here?

                      コメントをもっと表示する (5 返事)

                        [–]diearzte2 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        I thought I read somewhere that gorillas spend something like 80% of their waking hours chewing. Cooking makes it so we don't have to do that, for both meat and non-meat food sources.

                        [–]davewtameloncamp [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                        By the same logic: Grow your own food from seed you found in the wild. Eat the entire plant, roots, leaves, stalks and all. Tell me how much you love veggies.

                        [–]MEAN_questions [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                        What Linden wrote isn't actually true though. Eggs are a complete protein, so it is possible to have a balanced diet by eating a mix of locally grown vegetables and eggs.

                        [–]catjuggler [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                        Everyone involved in this conversation is stupid because what our ancestors ate is irrelevant

                        [–]brinnswf [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

                        This is correct, eating meat is very natural, so is eating food directly produced from plants. Humans are omnivores. BUT, we have become SO efficient at creating meat that we now have such an abundance in our diet that it's part of the problem with obesity and heart disease in the modern world.

                        [–]3DPopel [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                        as always, the right balance is the key.

                        [–]thr3sk [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                        Lack of exercise is far more to blame than meat-heavy diets with regard to obesity and heart disease iirc, but still we would be wise to eat less meat, if only for environmental reasons.

                        コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                          [–]figgy_puddin [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                          I don't know who Linden is, but he or she is throwing around a lot of facts without actually backing anything up.

                          I got as far as reading that cooking meat apparently increases its caloric content and just stopped. There is bullshit all over every part of this post. And lots of unsubstantiated assumptions.

                          [–]r3djak 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          I have a medical condition that makes my stomach feel like there's molten lava flowing through it when I eat meat (mostly red meat... Chicken and turkey seem to be ok).

                          I've eaten meat all my life though. I'm mostly vegetarian now, and I feel better, but I'm a sort of odd case I guess. Meat is something we eat. Not eating it because eating meat doesn't sit well with you, physically or ideologically, is one thing. But judging others for eating meat is pathetic, in the lightest of terms.

                          [–]hyasbawlz 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          As much as meat is was critical to the evolution of our species, both of these people are using terrible arguments for and against eating meat.

                          [–]LolsDGreatNPowerful [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                          The person wasn't arguing for eating meat, they were arguing against the notion that being a vegetarian is 'natural'. Your point is moot.

                          [–]BenMargarine 4ポイント5ポイント  (22子コメント)

                          Not that really any part of the meat industry is natural

                          [–]ShaggyMan 46ポイント47ポイント  (6子コメント)

                          What does natural have to do with anything? People are always saying that things are better because they're natural or doing things unnaturally is bad but there is no justification for it. Doing things "unnaturally" is what has let people develop to this point. Besides, what does it even mean? Is anything people make or do unnatural? Are we supposed to live in caves because it's more natural? This whole obsession with things being natural is bullshit marketing.

                          [–]alexrobinson 15ポイント16ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          It really is bollocks. Something being natural doesn't really mean anything significant for the most part, there's a reason we stopped doing a lot of things which are considered natural and that's because there are better non-natural alternatives that are beneficial to us. People just have this mindset that if something is natural, it must be good and anything unnatural is automatically bad or worse. This shit reminds me of all the stigma around the word chemicals...

                          [–]BenMargarine 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          I was more speaking to the argument that Linden made, of vegetarians being more unnatural than omnivores.
                          So your point still applies, no worries!!

                          [–]evillampshade 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          What does natural have to do with anything?

                          Yes, that is the original poster's point. It is a rebuttal to people who oppose vegetarianism by saying "Eating meat is natural." The rebuttal being "Not the way you do it." And the larger point being that it's silly to base morality on what is "natural" because we are so far beyond natural anyway.

                          The original post is a harmless and non-controversial point, albeit with an attention-grabbing photo, that is being willfully misunderstood by Linden and most commenters here. It doesn't surprise me that this is a cross-post from cringeanarchy.

                          [–]anderssi [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                          by definition, anything done by any organisms on this planet should be natural.

                          [–]squarepush3r [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                          Besides, what does it even mean?

                          it means you will get heart disease and cancer

                          [–]theseekerofbacon 17ポイント18ポイント  (4子コメント)

                          You're right. But nothing about wearing clothes, living in houses, exchanging currency for goods or the vast majority of what makes our modern society modern is natural.

                          It's not a relevant argument.

                          [–]Rytle 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          People frequently use the argument that humans evolved to eat meat as a defense for continuing to do it, it seems like the OP in the Facebook post was countering that.

                          [–]theseekerofbacon 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Well use ethical and moral arguments to make your point.

                          Like I said in another comment below, almost nothing we do in modern society is natural. Even eating vegetables in most case isn't as the vast majority of people don't forage their food. They take advantage of the modern transport infrastructure, agriculture and refrigeration to eat their food. None of that is natural.

                          There's nothing wrong with being vegetarian. But using "natural" as an argument is just asinine.

                          [–]BenMargarine -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          Then neither is the argument of Linden

                          [–]theseekerofbacon 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Point of his argument and mine was that just being natural is a false argument. We do plenty of things that aren't natural. Some of those things are extremely beneficial to us.

                          So if natural was the only metric for what was good, we wouldn't exist as the cognizant being that we are today.

                          If those vegetarians want natural, I'd love to see them nude roaming the streets eating grass and what berries they can find. Because the trucks shipping out their vegetables aren't natural. The gas used to run those trucks aren't natural. The energy used to store the veggies long enough to be viable for eating isn't natural.

                          Natural is a non-argument used by people who really don't have a better point.

                          [–]LoraRolla 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          If Beavers were human beings they'd be decreeing dams as unnatural. If Chimpanzees were humans, they'd be talking about how their tools and small structures and literal wars were just not natural and they needed to get back to peace loving nature like their bonobo cousins.

                          [–]CowboyLaw -1ポイント0ポイント  (8子コメント)

                          That's not true. It's very easy to buy meat that's been raised on a family-run ranch like mine. Cows that have been treated decently from birth. Cows that grazed on vast, open pastures. Cows that have never tasted corn, never seen a feedlot. There are literally hundreds of such ranches offering their meat on the Internet. The same internet you're reading this comment on. So, you can say you don't care. Or you can say you're too lazy to find an ethical source. But you can't say a natural, healthy, environmentally-friendly source of beef, chicken, or pork doesn't exist.

                          [–]Jonno_FTW 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

                          Farms aren't very natural (assuming natural means the state of affairs ~250,000 years ago). Natural would be using sharpened sticks and stone hammers to kill (doing it with your friends) free roaming and undomesticated (read: very dangerous) wild boar and cows.

                          The whole natural is better argument is completely flawed anyway, you can be totally healthy eating a soylent meal replacement that meets all your nutritional requirements. Just because people did things a certain way a long time ago, doesn't mean it's right. Due to medical advances, people live to be 60+ years old, when previously they lived to at most 30 years, does this make being old "wrong"?

                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature

                          [–]CowboyLaw 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

                          Reading this argument made me stupider. The worst part is (and this only wildly assumes a point can be found in that post), by that logic, ranches are FAR more natural than farmed fields of vegetables. So I guess what you'd prefer is that we eat nothing and starve. I'd suggest you take your own advice.

                          [–]Jonno_FTW 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

                          What I'm saying is that the argument that we should do things because they are more or less natural (based on some nebulous meaning of the word) is completely invalid. People need to find justifications for eating or not eating meat beyond "it's natural". Though I see your argument involves telling me to kill myself, thankyou, you have demonstrated your maturity.

                          Incidentally, I could make the argument that's what is right is what impacts the least upon the environment, which would involve everyone killing themselves (ideally after they've safely shut down systems that left unattended would damage the planet)! I don't agree with this line either, but it's a point that could be made and probably the most natural.

                          [–]anderssi [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                          People need to find justifications for eating or not eating meat beyond "it's natural".

                          i would say most people would chew through a sirloin steak without giving it an extra thought.

                          Incidentally, I could make the argument that's what is right is what impacts the least upon the environment,

                          what is right or wrong and what is natural are very different things.

                          コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                            コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

                              [–]LandMineHare 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              IT'S CALORIFIC!

                              [–]3kliksphilip 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              Say what you like about Linden's argument but he stacks parentheses like a boss.

                              [–]Duelion [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

                              Raw meat is delicious, beef carpaccio and tartaro are both one of my favorite meals.

                              [–]squarepush3r [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                              interesting, considering humans don't have taste buds like carnivores to taste meat. If you enjoy pretending you are a lion that is up to you though :)

                              [–]PoorMrX [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                              That's not just great... it's calorific!!!

                              [–]nowaygreg [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                              How does cooking meat increase the amount of calories? That doesn't sound right

                              [–]farleymfmarley [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                              I have no problem with people who don't eat meat. If you don't want to, don't. I don't care if you only eat plants, only eat meat, or only eat powdered donuts. Be you man, be the best you that you can be, and just let people be who they wanna be man.

                              [–]secret_secret_secret [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                              My favourite part is just the guy that replied "Challenge accepted."

                              [–]DeusExBubblegum [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                              Hell yeah we sure showed him, lol bacon /s

                              [–]SteakIntake [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                              Can't argue with that

                              [–]Poromenos 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                              Will nobody comment on how the only "natural" way to eat meat is if you catch it with your bare hands and eat all of it raw, but getting packaged potatoes and throwing the skin and eyes away before cooking them is completely fine?

                              [–]chisleu 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              Cooking meat reduces the calories.

                              [–]airborneANDrowdy -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              Holy Cross contamination, Batman!

                              [–]steak4take -3ポイント-2ポイント  (3子コメント)

                              Modern meat industries and modern consumer products made from animal parts are far from natural.

                              [–]cajunhawk 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              So is everything labeled "organic".

                              [–]RegressToTheMean [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                              animal parts

                              Offal has been eaten for a very long time and still is

                              [–]PantheraLupus 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              So is most of the stuff we've been doing and making for thousands of years.

                              [–]manofpuck -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              Also the shitty packaged food we eat is fortified.

                              [–]zenplasma -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                              it's unnatural to consume that much meat tho.

                              Historically people would probably average meat consumption maybe once a month, or more likely few months. If lucky.

                              Even 3rd world farmers don't eat their livestock as often as we eat meat, as without modern hormonal treatment they can't replace them as fast as we eat them.

                              コメントをもっと表示する (20 返事)