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badlinguistics

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submitted by kingkayveeSign Lang has almost as many accents and dialects as Voice Lang
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[–]ennemi_interieur -27 points-26 points-25 points  (39 children)
Haha.
To clarify what I mean by that: black people on the whole aren't a net benefit for the french economy, nor are they one for africa in fact.
This has nothing to do with linguistics, it's race realism.
[–]Antabaka 27 points28 points29 points  (10 children)
Thank you for clarifying that your opinion really is just racist nonsense. Your original comment almost seemed innocuous.
[–][deleted]  (9 children)
[removed]
    [–]Antabaka 13 points14 points15 points  (0 children)
    You've done a good job not citing those claims. And even if your number two is right, it's pretty well known that IQ tests are very socially biased.
    [–]gacorley 12 points13 points14 points  (4 children)
    1) IQ is 80% hereditary at age 18*, 75% of that is estimated to be caused by genetic factors. It's not a controversial stance, look up race-neutral adoptions and twin studies if you want.
    Yeah, I'm kinda going to want to know sources on a claim like that.
    Also, human "races" are not genetically coherent groups. It's pretty well-established that humans don't have biologically definable "races", and that race is a social construct.
    2) Average IQ in subsaharan africa is 70-75.
    First, based on what population as the standard? Global?
    Second, IQ tests have come under a lot of criticisms. They are not necessarily culturally neutral, only test certain cognitive skills, and include some learned behavior. Wikipedia has a good summary of the criticisms
    [–]conuly 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
    Those people have never heard of the Flynn effect, have you noticed?
    [–]gacorley 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
    Ah, thank you for that. I'd forgotten the Flynn effect. Weirdly, it seems like in that case it's the population as a whole that is improving on the test, which is a whole other level to the IQ debate.
    [–]Jimmi_FRendrixSpeaks proto ULTRAFRENCH 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
    IQ is learned stuff how do genetics even affect learned knowledge that much?
    [–]Rakonas 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
    It is hereditary because your education is highly influenced by your parents economic status. IQ is highly determined by your education status, it doesn't really say that much about your "innate intelligence" whatever that means.
    [–]saarlThis is how we say "checkmate" in your moonspeak. 2 points3 points4 points  (2 children)
    I thought average IQ was 100?
    [–]conuly 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
    Yes and no.
    Average IQ is designed as being 100 no matter what.
    However, interesting fact - people 100 years ago would not test that high on IQ tests normed for a modern population. The IQ of the population continues to rise, even though it... doesn't (because we keep renorming the tests.)
    [–]ennemi_interieur -5 points-4 points-3 points  (0 children)
    Yes, in western countries where it was designed, it's around 100
    [–]kingkayveeSign Lang has almost as many accents and dialects as Voice Lang[S] 16 points17 points18 points  (26 children)
    That's a funny way of spelling 'racism.'
    [–]ennemi_interieur comment score below threshold-20 points-19 points-18 points  (25 children)
    Well I am a racist, but no it isn't the same thing.
    Being a race realist means recognizing differences between races. Be it the fact that blacks dominate running sports or askhenazi jews' high average IQ.
    Being a racist means that, in addition to that, I don't like black people. I don't hate them, we're just too different and I am a judgemental person. I don't like their low average intelligence, lack of self-control and entitlement. See the nuance?
    [–]Antabaka 21 points22 points23 points  (8 children)
    You're just justifying racism, and poorly at that. This is an academic sub (or at least we try to keep it that way) so if you want to make claims like that you would need to back it up with peer-reviewed science.
    [–]kingkayveeSign Lang has almost as many accents and dialects as Voice Lang[S] 15 points16 points17 points  (2 children)
    The science is that he has a 137 IQ (measured by an institute, dontchakno!) and he has claimed it to be true!
    [–]ennemi_interieur -2 points-1 points0 points  (1 child)
    well, it's the truth.
    It was this mental health institute.
    [–]DelsteinULTRA-SAPIR-WHORF 11 points12 points13 points  (2 children)
    You're just justifying racism, and poorly at that.
    Are there any good justifications for racism?
    [–]Antabaka 7 points8 points9 points  (0 children)
    Well there are good attempts, in that they at least pretend to cite something peer reviewed, but he's just throwing out numbers.
    edit: And now they're citing studies that are controversial and barely related at best, and ones with inconclusive results.
    [–]ithika 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
    'Race surrealism' says that white people like me are inherently better at being racist than the other lot. 😃
    [–]ennemi_interieur -1 points0 points1 point  (1 child)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ this is a good, sourced article.
    You can also look up the "minnesota transracial adoption study"
    I'll stop answering now because it takes me time to write in english and I've made my point anyway. You can't convince someone of what they don't want to believe.
    [–]Antabaka 8 points9 points10 points  (0 children)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ this is a good, sourced article.
    There has been significant controversy in the academic community about the heritability of IQ since research on the issue began in the late nineteenth century.
    And more importantly, that is not about race.
    minnesota transracial adoption study
    Due to confounding of social and biological factors, it was inconclusive in terms of determining relative environmental or biological contributions to racial differences in IQ – as the study's result could be interpreted as supporting either hypothesis.

    You can't convince someone of what they don't want to believe.
    Indeed. No matter how much science disagrees with you, you just want to be racist (or racist and 'race realist' as you put it).
    [–]kingkayveeSign Lang has almost as many accents and dialects as Voice Lang[S] 11 points12 points13 points  (3 children)
    See the nuance?
    Nope. I just see stupid and racist comments from a supposed 'genius.' I'm looking forward to the day where your stupidity lands you in /r/iamverysmart . Because no one likes your low average intelligence, lack of self-control, and entitlement.
    [–]ennemi_interieur -1 points0 points1 point  (2 children)
    Don't be like that. It's true that this (and other things) gives me a lot of trust in my conclusions, but mocking me doesn't make you correct.
    Why do you insist on calling it nonsense?
    [–]Volsungasuper specialised "linguist" training 10 points11 points12 points  (1 child)
    Because it runs counter to academic consensus and you haven't provided any credible source for your claim.
    [–]conuly 5 points6 points7 points  (0 children)
    Or any non-credible ones.
    [–]weeteacups 8 points9 points10 points  (3 children)
    You say "race realist," I say "real racist."
    [–]ennemi_interieur comment score below threshold-8 points-7 points-6 points  (2 children)
    Calling me racist is not making a point. My position is, racism is factually correct.
    LMAOing at the circlejerk here, it's the equivalent of US republicans saying "that's soshulism!" when criticizing leftist stances. The only answer to that is "well... yeah?"
    [–]phalp 9 points10 points11 points  (0 children)
    More like telling a homeopathy enthusiast that their medicines are just water. It takes a little more than "well... yeah?" to climb out of the loony bin. But seriously, I'm sure you'd love to tell us what fascinating things cymatics can tell us about race.
    [–]kingkayveeSign Lang has almost as many accents and dialects as Voice Lang[S] 5 points6 points7 points  (0 children)
    Wow. You are actually just a really stupid person.
    [–]LinguaNate 5 points6 points7 points  (4 children)
    See the nuance?
    Oh, the irony of someone lecturing in a condescending manner about nuance, whilst simultaneously destroying it. Putting everyone wholly in a mythical genetic box, which has been disproved multiple times scientifically, is the exact opposite of nuance. It's an arbitrarily binary view of the world, not unlike that of a child. Us versus them.
    The truth is, there are very few genetic differences between races, and all of them are superficial, usually based on geographical backgrounds of ancestors and the different scenarios they may have been exposed to. For instance, people with European backgrounds are more likely to be able to digest milk, whereas people of East Asian descent may be less prone to body odor. Connected to that same gene, they tend to have dry earwax, unlike most other groups, which tend to have wet earwax. Black people are more resilient against sunburns and skin cancer due to increased melanin in their skin. Not impervious, mind you, just more resilient.
    Not exactly Earth-shattering differences here, and even then there are exceptions to the rule. The vast majority of our genetic makeup, especially the core, integral parts, is exactly the same. Black people, or any other group for that matter, aren't inherently lesser in any way. This is a scientific fact. I'm sorry if you don't like that.
    [–]ennemi_interieur -4 points-3 points-2 points  (3 children)
    These evolutionary differences affect every part of the body except the brain, right? There can't be a selection of personality traits like tendancy towards aggression. At least, not considering the short length of time humans have existed in.
    Also what is a pitbull?
    [–]LinguaNate 1 point2 points3 points  (2 children)
    Behavior is a product of upbringing; it isn't inherent. You can raise white people to be aggressive too. Whatever a person is raised around becomes the norm in their mind.
    Also, to answer your silly non-sequitur: A pitbull is a dog breed that is stereotyped as being dangerous, when in fact they're very loyal and will consistently do what their owner tells them to do. If the owner trains them to be aggressive, they will be. Or vice versa. Once again, a product of their environment. Not inherent. You have no point.
    (I'm done with this. I refuse to be the guy debating with a racist on reddit. Especially a blatant, self-proclaimed racist. There's no point in it. You clearly have already chosen which hill you want to die on.)
    [–]ennemi_interieur -2 points-1 points0 points  (1 child)
    Also, to answer your silly non-sequitur: A pitbull is a dog breed that is stereotyped as being dangerous, when in fact they're very loyal and will consistently do what their owner tells them to do. If the owner trains them to be aggressive, they will be. Or vice versa. Once again, a product of their environment. Not inherent. You have no point.
    Never met anyone retarded enough to bite the bullet and defend the blank slate theory for pitbulls. Are you actually black? :D
    [–]LinguaNate 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
    Nope. White as hell. German ancestry. I can even digest milk, as referenced earlier. I just have fairly well-developed critical thinking skills. Clearly, there's no way I'm changing your mind on anything. Goodbye.
    [–]newappealWell, doctor, do I have a dialect? 2 points3 points4 points  (2 children)
    Being a race realist means recognizing differences between races. Be it the fact that blacks dominate running sports or askhenazi jews' high average IQ.
    As someone with a background in genetics, I'm just gonna say that this "theory" is complete bullshit. Like complete and utter bullshit. Like not even grounded in anything resembling reality.
    Race. Does not. Exist.
    [–]ennemi_interieur -3 points-2 points-1 points  (1 child)
    fucking hell.
    Race. Does not. Exist.
    Whatever you want to call it then. Do ethnic groups exist? Do "people with subsaharan african phenotypes" exist? Can I say "there is a strong correlation between people having subsaharan african phenotypes and a low IQ, and adoption studies show both of these traits to be predominantly hereditary"?
    As someone with a background in genetics
    I don't believe you.
    [–]newappealWell, doctor, do I have a dialect? 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
    Oh for the love of god. Your contribution to the discussion of an extremely complicated topic is the academic bulwark of Wikipedia. And by the way, the first sentence in the linked article is: "The intelligence of Jews relative to other ethnic groups has been an occasional subject of scientific controversy." Hardly a shining endorsement of your views. And anyway, the intelligence of a particular group is the shakiest way to support your argument, since there's not even a consensus of what intelligence is, much less how to best measure it.
    But as for the actual genetic "basis" of the "race realist" argument:
    Whatever you want to call it then.
    That's the thing, though. "Race" is nothing but a term we made up. When I say it doesn't exist, I don't mean that "race" is the wrong word for some concept; I mean it really is not anything real. We can divide the human race into any number of "races", but here's the problem: If you want to do that, the first step of the requisite statistical analysis of human genotypes is to determine how many groups you want to divide humans into. If you want to divide humans into three races, you can come up with three groups, but there was never anything that said there are three or five or twenty races that humanity should be divided into. And that alone strongly suggests that "race" doesn't exist outside the mind of humans.
    Do ethnic groups exist?
    Again, same as above. We can identify genetic similarities within populations, but these are incredibly fluid. The closest genomic researchers come to speaking of anything remotely similar to "race" or "ethnicity" is when we use haplogroups to identify certain populations. But this essentially just involves identifying a population by a certain shared genetic marker. It again gives no basis to divide humans into races or ethnic groups. What's more, there's actually more genetic variation within "racial groups" (once you divide humans into an arbitrary number of them) than between them. That means that of the rather small amount of genes that differ between humans, the vast majority of them can't be connected to any particular populations. It just so happens that the very few genes that do regularly differ between populations include highly-noticeable ones like skin color. But that's maybe 10 out of the 20,000 human genes.
    Do "people with subsaharan african phenotypes" exist?
    No, not really. Because "Sub-Saharan African" isn't a phenotype. We can look at populations in Sub-Saharan African populations and identify genetic commonalities, but I guarantee you (because, you know, this has already been done) that you won't find a grouping that conforms to your conception of race. In fact one of the major ways in which we can genetically group populations involves comparing single-nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs), which are locations in non-coding regions of the genome known to be variable between populations. But note the phrase non-coding. Without an in-depth example of the mechanics of eukaryotic genomes, suffice it to say that these SNPs have absolutely no effect on an organism's phenotype. Meaning most human variation is completely independent of phenotype, which speaks to remarkable phenotypic similarity between all humans. Like I mentioned, it only seems like there's more variation than there actually is because we can see things like skin color.
    I say "there is a strong correlation between people having subsaharan african phenotypes and a low IQ, and adoption studies show both of these traits to be predominantly hereditary"?
    Whether or not IQ (and, by the way, the IQ test has long been known to be culturally biased and is by no means universally accepted by psycologists) is hereditary is a matter of debate. From what we know, the general consensus is that at least part of intelligence is genetic, but there's a vast amount of intelligence that's not accounted for by heredity.
    The fact that you're claiming that blacks have a lower IQ than other "races" probably means you've been reading The Bell Curve or other such pseudoscientific drivel. Even if we accept this tendency to be genuine, and even if we accept the IQ test to be a valid indicator of intelligence (and again, there's not even agreement on what intelligence is), this result would still mean practically nothing. Take any amount of arbitrary groups, apply some random assay to them, and you'll be able to rank them from highest to lowest. It proves nothing.
    In Summary: The fact is, everything we know about human genetics tells us that race does not exist. Humanity expresses practically no population-based genetic differentiation. Those genes that do differ between populations don't support differences on the level purported by "race realists" - they're things like skin color and lactose sensitivity. Practically all of what "race realists" hold up as evidence (at least that which isn't completely fabricated) of race can be explained by cultural background. And if you don't believe me, feel free to ask pretty much any biologist. That race is entirely fictitious is not a controversial position - it's the only possibly conclusion from the wealth of available data. For a deeper explanation of the issues I addressed here and more information on the science behind them, there is a great YouTube video series (videos 1, 2, and 3) made by a biologist, with relevant scientific literature cited.
    Edit: One rather poignant fact I forgot - The vast majority of human genetic variation is entirely confined to Sub-Saharan Africa.
    [–]jPaolo 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
    nor are they one for africa in fact.
    How black people are not contributing to African economy? They're literally creating it.
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