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Health, mental illness, and traffic blocking protests. (self.SRSDiscussion)

CloneSix が 投稿

First, I agree with BLM. I believe they should protest, I believe in their movement, and I would go out and join them... if I didn't have a lot of health issues.

The fact is that I have a number of health issues, chronic illness, and anxiety that has grown from these health issues. It's made me agoraphobic, though that has been lessening over time. I used to go for months without leaving the house, due to fears of health issues cropping up, but now I leave the house. Mainly, I leave because I repeatedly tell myself that I am in control. If I need to leave, I will leave. If I plan to only stay out for 2 hours, then I only do just that. If symptoms crop up while I'm out, I'm in charge - I can go back home to take my medication and rest.

If a protest stopped all traffic and I was stuck, this would cause a full blown panic attack. People with this type of anxiety issue can not be trapped for any reason, or a full relapse can ensue. I also have physical health complications that can cause me to become extremely ill.

Some people might be thinking, well fucking stay home then. Okay, I did that, and therapists told me not to. I just wonder if some of this form of protest (no matter who does it) is ableist. It doesn't take into consideration that some people have health issues, physically and/or mentally.

On the other hand, I guess there aren't too many people for whom this specific situation would apply. There aren't so many people like me out there, I mean, at least I really hope not. If there are, many of them are simply not able to leave their homes at all in many cases. So maybe this thing that bothers me would only affect a handful of people out there, and maybe this is just me being entitled. I don't know.

What do you think of this specific form of protest? Does anyone else have similar issues, and how would you handle it if you were trapped for hours?

(I would bring up ambulances and all that here, but so many people are just using that as an excuse to hate on BLM.)

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[–]acidroach420 19ポイント20ポイント  (10子コメント)

No offense, but this is kind of a silly hypothetical situation. Traffic-blocking protests are relatively infrequent, and "being nice and considerate" isn't really an effective tactic for mass movements achieving change through societal pressure.

[–]table_fireplace 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

"Silly hypothetical"? The OP just said this is their life.

Someone I love has a chronic illness similar to this, and anything that traps them outside for hours would be really harmful to them. Like, months-long-setback harmful. I know, it's normal for trolls to come in and fixate on hypotheticals, but since I know someone like this, I'd give the benefit of the doubt here.

I know, the answer isn't easy; the only way protests should stop is because their goals are met. And I don't think the protests should end - in fact, they need to escalate until black people are truly safe everywhere they go. But it is important to consider how a protest can affect others. (Not the cops, in this case - fuck them - but average people who may be hurt through the protests).

This isn't an easy question, no doubt, but it's not one that deserves to be dismissed. When you look at multiple perspectives, things get complicated.

[–]CloneSix[S] 9ポイント10ポイント  (7子コメント)

No offense, but this is kind of a silly hypothetical situation.

This is my actual life, and something I deal with daily. I have to take all kinds of precautions and have to live a different life than someone who is not sick. I think that was offensive, and you were being ableist in that moment when you said that.

[–]Blank_username 8ポイント9ポイント  (5子コメント)

I don't think the intent of that comment was that your illness is silly, but rather that your situation is relatively unique and not a reasonable criticism of BLM protests.

[–]CloneSix[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

More people have illnesses than you'd think. They're called "invisible illnesses" for a reason. My illness is just one of many. And illness is just one risk factor out of many sincerely troubling situations. What are parents to do who cannot reach their children? Emergency services? I fear that if people are put in life and death situations due to a protest, or put in extreme amounts of pain, discomfort, or anxiety (even if not predisposed) then what will sadly happen is that people will look at BLM with hatred, rather than those who made BLM the necessity that it is. If that makes sense?

If you're an average privileged person, probably fairly ignorant of anyone's suffering other than your own, you're going to blame the people right in front of you, rather than bother to think about the major race problem that the protesters are trying to bring to light.

[–]Blank_username 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

I am aware that people have illnesses I am saying it is unlikely that a significant amount of people are being put into extreme situations of harm. If people blame BLM for protesting that is their problem? Like I don't know what you want me to say there is not perfect way to educate everyone end oppression and prevent anyone from being harmed in the process. Its just not realistic.

[–]CloneSix[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I am aware that people have illnesses I am saying it is unlikely that a significant amount of people are being put into extreme situations of harm. If people blame BLM for protesting that is their problem? Like I don't know what you want me to say there is not perfect way to educate everyone end oppression and prevent anyone from being harmed in the process. Its just not realistic.

I think we agree a lot here. I think there's no perfect way either. :( It's actually really sad, it's like it's one of those 'wicked problems' that I guess there isn't a real solution for. I guess BLM is already trying their best to walk a fine line between having to inconvenience people to get their message heard, and not wanting to harm people. I'm sure they've already been thinking this already, and I'm sure they must have determined that these types of protests that they do are the best options they have. I guess I was trying to brainstorm up any possible better options, but there's always going to be huge drawbacks, and always going to be people that are more than simply inconvenienced.

I thank you for trying to talk about it with me, and thank you for being open to discussion. I know it's a touchy and very difficult topic.

[–]Blank_username 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ya it's unfortunate that people with disabilities continue to get the short stick even in social justice movements. One thing that comes to mind is that we could have more discussions on ableism within BLM activism? It also relates to police brutality because there have been many instances of mentally ill people killed by police. Though I will say that is kinda idealistic because it's hard enough getting focus on black women and they are literally half the black population :/

[–]CloneSix[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I love your ideas, and you're right. I'm finding a sad lack of empathy even on progressive forums. I already deal with that constantly IRL. However, I fully agree that maybe it's too optimistic to think we could discuss ableism even as it pertains to the BLM movement. Even though mental and physical illness has played a big role in some of the brutality, murder, or unfair treatment of black people by LE. I guess I feel it would be spreading the movement too thin, and as you said, even the population of black women aren't getting enough support and they would definitely make up a larger percentage than those with illness or disability.

It's a messed up situation. I guess they want to be laser focused on ending police brutality since that is LITERALLY killing black people, and I can understand that. I am with them!

Edit: I should log off, I'm getting annoyed by others. But you, thank you so much for discussing it. Because of you, and because you showed empathy and all, I feel like I've come to the conclusion that the protests do need to happen, they need to happen whereever and whenever they can, and if I (and others with their own issues) become ill/regressed for a few months it's okay because POTENTIALLY many more black lives could be saved.

[–]acidroach420 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

As /r/Blank_Username said, I wasn't trying to belittle you or other sufferers of chronic illness as "silly", but say that the situation you fear is disparate and anomalous.

[–]Blank_username 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

That is a rather extreme example of one of the many possible detriments to blocking a highway or freeway. However, BLM is well aware that this is detrimental to the population which is why they do it. In protests if you are not causing a problem you are not going to be heard simple as that. People are not protesting because they want people to have protests they are doing it because they are upset with police brutality. If this is a serious concern for you then you should channel that against those that caused the agitation, not the agitators.

I just wonder if some of this form of protest (no matter who does it) is ableist.

I would bring up ambulances and all that here, but so many people are just using that as an excuse to hate on BLM

If there was an ambulance or someone with an emergency protesters would likely accommodate if they could. That being said I am not overly concerned with these hypothetical situations. Show me a movement that accomplished anything while not inconveniencing anyone in a society. If you want to suggest meaningful and effective alternatives let that be a discussion, but any accountability for harm caused to the public by demonstrations lies solely with the institutionalized police violence that lead to the demonstrations.

[–]CloneSix[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

I understand, and it's more than just inconvenience in some cases - that's what I meant. If these things that affected me were just an inconvenience, I'd be so happy!

Something that is harmless but inconvenient is best in my opinion. For example, when they protested at the mall on Black Friday. That was a huge inconvenience, they got on the news, people were annoyed. But no emergency services would have been blocked, people were not blocked from going to their own homes if needed, people would not be trapped with a medical condition. Parents wouldn't be stopped from getting to their children.

They certainly would not be able to shop that day, or for that time period, or it would be very difficult to do so. To me that is true inconvenience that's also fairly harmless. At this point, I can't think of anyone who would suffer, but I can think of hundreds of people who would be inconvenienced and be forced to stop and think about the rights and the treatment of black people today. Everyone notices, nobody (except in truly freak accidents) will get hurt. These can be done in most any shopping outlet, any day (though sales days will be the biggest impact) - I would say please don't do this by a pharmacy or a grocery store or other places where people may need things to survive.

[–]Blank_username 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

I didn't mean to say that this wouldn't be a serious situation for you my apologies. I had meant that it would be an extreme example that could arise out of the inconvenience of blocking a highway.

What about the workers of the mall? Those who lose their income and their ability to feed themselves or their families? What if someone relied on that income for something critical for their daily life like medication? There are nearly endless scenarios where public demonstrations can cause harm to people directly or indirectly. We must also consider impact. Black Friday is once a year. People who can't shop one place can always go to another. Blocking highways has a drastically higher impact on the population than doing a sit in at a store.

While I am sympathetic to the harm that can and often is caused through demonstrations, I do not consider it to be substantial enough to validate not protesting. You are asking the black community to ignore their hurt and pain and suffering because some small minority of people will also hurt and suffer in the fight for justice.

[–]CloneSix[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I didn't know that they made workers go home - I thought shoppers had to wait it out or leave. I didn't know workers wouldn't get paid, and I would be against that. I'm sure retail workers barely get paid anything as it is. I worked many jobs like that before I got sick.

I want VERY much to have equality for black people. I know it sounds like I don't, and there's nothing I can do about that. I'm worried about problems arising from the more dramatic types of protesting. But I do realize it helps get visibility.

But then again, what have the protests done? Have they been working? It seems like the problems in the USA at least are getting worse. The police get body cameras, and black (men usually) still die for no reason at all. The politicians make promises and nothing happens. Online, I see nothing but a rekindling of hatred for black people, and Reddit for example appears to be getting more racist by the minute.

If something is potentially harmful and working for the greater good, then good. But is it working?

[–]Blank_username 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Friend that is a completely different discussion. All I will say is that you can't blame people for trying.

[–]fuming_arsole 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

What about the workers of the mall? Those who lose their income and their ability to feed themselves or their families? What if someone relied on that income for something critical for their daily life like medication?

This is one of the big reasons unions used to exist, so that people wouldn't get into problems when their workplace was shut down because of protest. Of course, outside of leftist circles, nowadays saying that you're pro-union makes people react as if you just said that you're pro-child murder...

[–]FreddyBananas 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

As a recovering agorophobe, and someone who struggles with extreme anxiety, other people are not beholden to me for these issues of mine, especially not when they're demanding the right to exist. Many of these protesters are undoubtedly traumatized and consumed with anxiety due to the police, and blocking traffic is an important, effective, historically-used tactic.

Were I stuck in unmoving traffic due to a protest, I would abandon my car on the shoulder if I could, and perhaps join the protest.

[–]CloneSix[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

My situation doesn't enable me to join, I need some kind of isolation when in a panic attack, BUT, abandoning the car and walking away to calm myself is an actual good solution if this ever were to happen to me or others who have other mental or physical ailments. Thank you for bringing a pretty good solution for me and others like me.

I said before to someone else, the more I think about it (and THANK YOU for discussing it with me everyone) the more I realize there just isn't a good compromise that won't (accidentally) put others in potential danger. It's just sadly impossible... just not gonna happen. And I am a firm believer that those protesting have every right and reason to be out there.

[–]FreddyBananas 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're welcome. And I know how hard it is to stop worrying about things you're consciously aware of probably won't happen, but fwiw, know that it's extremely unlikely you'll ever get caught up in something like this. And if you do, you have a plan to try out.

And thanks for being understanding. I hope that someday we can live in a world where we're all safe.

[–]lampcouchfireplace 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

You're describing a pretty rare situation that would only apply in a few edge cases. I'm sympathetic to your anxiety disorder, but in perspective, the momentary discomfort (even if it's quite severe) of a single person in some pretty specific circumstances seems like a fair cost for a necessary protest.

Not to mention that if folks with anxiety disorders were being executed by the police at an alarming rate, you can bet there'd be Anxious Lives Matter blocking traffic causing the same issue.

Another analogy: I have a very serious food allergy. It can cause me anxiety eating at unfamiliar places or being in restaurants serving that allergen. I take reasonable steps to avoid it, but ultimate I can't expect that everybody else stops enjoying that allergen so I can eat at more restaurants or not get nervous when I'm on an airplane next to someone eating the snacks... Similarly, I don't think you can really expect desperately important protests to accommodate your very specific mental health issues.

[–]FreddyBananas 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Not to mention that if folks with anxiety disorders were being executed by the police at an alarming rate, you can bet there'd be Anxious Lives Matter blocking traffic causing the same issue.

Unlikely. Organization around mental illness is woefully inadequate, and one of the reasons racialized protests are able to happen is that people of color are quickly recognizable, and tend to live around the same neighborhoods (whether out of choice, necessity, or gentrification pushing them to the margins).

Also, mental illness is actually a huge factor in being murdered by police. It's something like 50% of people killed by cops. I don't remember if the studies isolated mental illness from race and other factors, tho. And I suppose it's reasonable to hypothesize that anxiety makes up a disproportionately smaller portion of the "mental illness" umbrella.

[–]toughguyhardcoreband 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah I agree, incarceration rates for the mentally ill are already massively disproportionate too.

[–]fuming_arsole 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not to mention that if folks with anxiety disorders were being executed by the police at an alarming rate, you can bet there'd be Anxious Lives Matter blocking traffic causing the same issue.

As a counterpoint, people with Asperger's are actually at a rather high risk of being the victim of police brutality, because they tend to behave in ways that can be interpreted as threatening or suspect. But there is no Asperger's Lives Matter.

[–]CloneSix[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're describing a pretty rare situation that would only apply in a few edge cases. I'm sympathetic to your anxiety disorder, but in perspective, the momentary discomfort (even if it's quite severe) of a single person in some pretty specific circumstances seems like a fair cost for a necessary protest.

I can understand that - and I do probably think my situation is really rare. I do think the allergen analogy is a little different. It's not that other people can't have it, it's that in this one situation I would be forced to eat that allergen and it probably won't cause death but would cause probable months of future problems.

[–]sordfysh 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why not leave your car if stuck in traffic? Obviously it would be strange to see someone get out and pace, but acceptance of mental illness is one of the next steps we need to make as a society.

If you need to seem erratic in order to quell anxiety, and as long as it doesn't harm anyone, people should be accepting of your behavior. Hell, if I was in the same situation with you, I'd probably get out and set up a lawn chair and join you in the stopped traffic party.

Are you familiar with the Invisibilia podcast? I highly recommend it as a look into the issues of psychology in modern society. They just did a recent episode about "treating" (accepting) those with mental disorders.

[–]inngrinder 1ポイント2ポイント  (15子コメント)

and maybe this is just me being entitled.

Yeah. The entire point of these protests is to be disruptive.

[–]CloneSix[S] 5ポイント6ポイント  (14子コメント)

Or it's just you not having any empathy or understanding for someone who has had a devastating illness for eight years. It ruined my life, and I am still concerned about the BLM movement and forgive me for trying to figure out something what won't put others in potential harm because I am not the only person out there with problems.

[–]inngrinder 0ポイント1ポイント  (13子コメント)

won't put others in potential harm

I don't think you understand. Black people are getting shot and incarcerated and having their lives ruined every day by the state. The only efficient way to fight against this is to protest, and that involves putting "your bodies upon the gears". Try to have some empathy towards black people.

[–]CloneSix[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (12子コメント)

(I wrote this to someone above.) I feel like I've come to the conclusion that the protests do need to happen, they need to happen whereever and whenever they can, and if I (and others with their own issues) become ill/regressed for a few months it's okay because POTENTIALLY many more black lives could be saved.

If I only talked to you though, I never would have reached that conclusion, I'd just have been hurt and alone.

[–]inngrinder 3ポイント4ポイント  (11子コメント)

If I only talked to you though, I never would have reached that conclusion, I'd just have been hurt and alone.

I don't see how you're being hurt by a hypothetical panic attack while black people are being murdered by police officers and responding to this state-sanctioned murder through perfectly legitimate protest tactics.

[–]Pileus 1ポイント2ポイント  (10子コメント)

That's because you're at best ignorant of what life with mental disease is like.

[–]inngrinder 2ポイント3ポイント  (8子コメント)

It's probably best not to erase people with mental health problems who happen to disagree with you. There's a reason why these kinds of protest tactics are used again and again.

[–]Pileus 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

It's even better not to write off others with mental illnesses as collateral damage for your cause célèbre. The mentally ill are always the first to be thrown to the wolves, whether it's progressivists portraying themselves as reasonable on gun control or activists too self-centered to think of the oppression they're furthering with lazy tactics.

[–]inngrinder 2ポイント3ポイント  (6子コメント)

The mentally ill are always the first to be thrown to the wolves

Interesting choice of words when you're tut-tutting black people for having the audacity to protest police brutality.

[–]Pileus -1ポイント0ポイント  (5子コメント)

Ending oppression is righteous, but it doesn't justify the oppression of others.