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Honestly, I'm happy with TotalBiscuit's and Jim Sterling's reporting on this. (Shadow of Mordor & The New Good Horrible Deal for YouTubers.) (forbes.com)

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[–]Meowsticgoesnya0018-1877-0794 3DS Friend code, remember to give me yours 32ポイント33ポイント  (5子コメント)

TB puts it decently well

[–]Roywocket 18ポイント19ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yeah that is the second thing.

This thing is pretty much isolated to youtube and the biggest youtubers come out and go "Yeah shit is going on here".

We were told BEFORE the reviews went live that shadyness went on. How is that corruption?

[–]jessemb 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's almost as though what we really care about is transparency!

[–][deleted] 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree with everything up chain of me. We were given disclosure by TB. There are already laws dealing with this behavior. Complete non-issue.

What is an issue is TB is one who broke the story a week before anyone else. So I ask, who is failing in doing their job. Maybe a group whose job it is to investigate and uncover these things, with facts and sources, and they could report these things on gaming websites.

The opposition just paints GamerGate as whatever convenient strawman they want. No fucking intellectual honesty.

[–]bamdastard 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm OK with it as long as they call their video a "preview" or a "promo" or a "gameplay" video and not a "review". And disclosure of the deal too.

[–]md1957 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's actually a little surprising that Erik Kain left out that clarification, though it could be understandable if it came out after he posted the article.

Still, while overall the article makes a number of pretty important and valid points, it sort of stumbles when it came to describing the SoM issue as being ignored or conflating Youtubers to the same standards as game journalists. And also, ZenOfDesign's implicit allegation of hypocrisy on GamerGate in his quoted comment.

EDIT: Adding

[–][deleted] 61ポイント62ポイント  (25子コメント)

This story should get to the top of the sub today. Though we certainly haven't ignored this shitshow, I do think we ought to let all of those involved with the Shadow Of Mordor agreement know that we absolutely despise that practice.

I think the reluctance of many to act is because the game actually turned out to be good...but that doesn't excuse the practice at all. What happens when a load of garbage is released under these terms, and many of our fellow gamers end up wasting money due to dishonest reviews.

I'll be writing letters today. I hope others will join me.

[–]Demotruk 24ポイント25ポイント  (6子コメント)

It really shouldn't matter if the game was good or bad (not that you're saying it should). The deal clearly creates a systemic bias towards positive coverage, even if no individual compromises their view. TB and Jim are right to call it out and anyone who accepted it without disclosing it, is pretty clearly in unethical territory.

[–][deleted] 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

absolutely!! I couldn't agree more. I'm just trying to figure out why it doesn't seem to be higher on the radar, though I certainly think that will change today. I certainly hope I didn't imply that it was okay because the game turned out to be good...I just think that may be why it hasn't ruffled as many feathers as it should.

[–]-Shank- 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is far from the first time independent Youtubers have been involved in astroturfing or being paid off for positive coverage. Microsoft did it,, EA did it and ModernWarNegro even made a video exposing Avermedia trying to DMCA a video he made after he "broke the contract" by saying something negative about his promo capture card during its review.

In short, Youtube is a place full of fake "average joe" reviews of Youtubers getting paid for positive coverage. These guys aren't professionals and sometimes a three-figure payday is enough to buy their word of mouth (and, if the past few months have told us anything, they're not any worse than the professionals either). I do enjoy YT'ers I find reputable such as TotalBiscuit but take plenty of others with a huge grain of salt.

[–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–][deleted] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    very well said.

    [–]tyren22 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    and anyone who accepted it without disclosing it, is pretty clearly in unethical territory.

    Not disclosing such a promotion is actually a violation of FCC rules. I've heard it's supposed to be disclosed in an "unavoidable" way which a note in the description is not, but if someone can't even do that much that's disgraceful.

    [–]kamon123 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    FCC takes their shit seriously too.

    [–]TallenMyriad 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I think the reluctance of many to act is because the game actually turned out to be good...but that doesn't excuse the practice at all.

    Is it too paranoid to wonder if they pulled these draconian demands on a game they knew would be well-received to test the waters and prepare for a game they KNOW will be panned? This needs to be looked ibto ASAP.

    [–][deleted] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    it's very possible...if we assume that this was the first time.

    [–]camarougeAnita is my waifu 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I'm going to guess that this isn't primarily the fault of YouTubers, but rather, the networks that represent them. Networks like Maker, Fullscreen, Polaris, etc. have come under fire for several controversies in the past and they screw youtube game channels over bigtime.

    If this is something we can tie to them, maybe we can get them to reform their shitty policies also.

    [–]trulyElse 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Networks like Maker, Fullscreen, Polaris, etc.

    I thought Maker owns Polaris ...

    [–]Chrono68 3ポイント4ポイント  (13子コメント)

    Eh, the game was decent, like 6/10, but I wouldn't call it groundbreaking or anything. If it didn't take place in ME this game would've just been chalked to a AC/ Batman clone.

    [–]Roywocket 1ポイント2ポイント  (11子コメント)

    I think that is unfair. I think the nemesis system does add something. I like the personal touch and a new way of doing it.

    I am also a sucker for procedural generated content like dwarf fortress and what not. I feel this is a pretty good use of those concepts on what is otherwise a fairly standardized idea.

    Not to mention neither AC/Batman were bad games. I think I could justify a 8/10 on it.

    [–]wisty 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I think the nemesis system does add something.

    Do people think that because the nemesis system is really good, or because all the Youtubers were forced to say how good the nemesis system was?

    And yes - that was a big part of the contract - shill the fuck out of nemesis.

    Of course, they probably included that clause because nemesis is pretty cool, and they want to highlight the game's selling points. But it's still dodgy to try to force it.

    [–]Chrono68 -1ポイント0ポイント  (9子コメント)

    Nemesis system is trivialized by the fact you can kill every enemy in the game by button mashing. Humans take the path of least resistance so with no incentive to use the system no one will use it.

    [–]ObsidianOverlord 1ポイント2ポイント  (8子コメント)

    I don't know, I constantly lost fights even in the early game. But apparently the commanders arnt supposed to come in packs of three from the get go. Fucking baptism by fire.

    [–]Chrono68 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

    I mean for casual gamers I can see how dying can happen in the game but you can literally just press spacebar and dodge every attack.

    [–]ObsidianOverlord 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

    It's too easy once you understand everything, but if you get the right combo of traits on a commander or warchief then it can be quite challenging.

    Shame too because running away and using the environment to assist in battles is a ton of fun.

    [–]Chrono68 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

    And I disagree. The traits would be really awesome if you couldn't kill every commander in the game by spamming executes and left clicks or that slo-mo arrow. If they made the combat more difficult their nemesis traits would be awesome but becayse you can bypass them entirely it makes the game a bust.

    [–]DrDeezee 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

    ...except you can't kill every commander in the game by spamming executes (combat master = immune to combat finishers and deflects all normal attacks unless struck from the back) or slow mo arrow (immune to ranged damage).

    There CAN be captains/chiefs who are combat masters, immune to stealth, immune to ranged, and have Hate of Pain (take damage = health regeneration) with no fears to exploit. So, yeah.

    [–]Chrono68 -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

    There's no commander that is immune to sword even if they are combat masters which means i can just spam left click untul he's dead. If a commander is immune to stealth and arrows I don't give two fucks because Ican left click him dead. If he's combat master I can still left click him dead and throw a few exectes in there if I'm feeling it.

    [–][deleted] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    very, very true.

    [–]Demotruk 31ポイント32ポイント  (11子コメント)

    How can he say that it's being ignored by GamerGate, wasn't Jim's piece the top topic on this subreddit yesterday? What a bizarre spin.

    [–]DrDeezee 10ポイント11ポイント  (10子コメント)

    This sub has less than 10,000 subscribers and a bit of an ego/hubris problem. It seems to think it is somehow the epicenter of #gamergate. It's a good place to catch some stories and such, don't get me wrong, but wondering why people don't think what's at the top of this sub is reflective of #gamergate is funny.

    For comparison, /r/games has over 500,000 subs and /r/gaming has over 6,000,000. Not every gamer (or #gamergater) uses reddit. Or 4chan. Or NeoGAF. Or Twitter. Thinking any one forum or subreddit is somehow the epicenter of a social movement is silly.

    [–]Demotruk 20ポイント21ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Since those two subs don't allow discussion of the topic, what can you take as reflective of GamerGate? I realize Twitter is where most of the activity happens, but it's hard to see a big picture view on Twitter unless you're following the topic all day. Subreddits on the other hand are specifically designed to aggregate the links that are popular that day.

    [–]Kimikazer 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    There has been discussion on it on /r/games about the SoM deals. As long as you don't mention GamerGate you should be fine.

    [–]tcata 16ポイント17ポイント  (1子コメント)

    There were tons of people on Twitter and 8chan calling this shit out so I don't see the point being made.

    [–]LamprehTeam Dickwolves 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I still think Kain just calls out everyone to act like he's above it all. We've seen talk about this here, and on twitter (idk about 8chan I don't go there) how does this count as us not being upset?

    [–][deleted] 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

    It seems to think it is somehow the epicenter of #gamergate.

    Thinking any one forum or subreddit is somehow the epicenter of a social movement is silly.

    This goes both ways you know.

    Do you judge us by twitter? By 8chan's v thread or gg board? By the Escapist thread? By the KIA subreddit?

    How is saying GG should be up in arms any different than trying to use an individual's actions to label the movement. Just because all the gg specific twitter accounts weren't all up in pitchforks, does that wipe out KIA's discussion of it?

    This is why generalizations have a negative influence on conversation. And that goes both ways too. Journos have complained about being lumped in with the actual offenders despite being innocent.

    [–][deleted] 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Not allowed to talk about GG on NeoGaf, 4chan, or anywhere else on reddit. So you are complaining GG didn't talk about it where GG isn't allowed to post? Seems intellectually dishonest to me.

    [–]DrDeezee -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Where did I complain about GG talking about anything? I'm just talking about this sub acting like it is LITERALLY #GamerGate or some shit. I listed those subs for an idea of how many gamers are out there. Less than 10,000 readers here and 6 million readers on the gaming subreddit = 0.16%

    Sure, not all gamers are #gamergaters, but trust me, not nearly everyone involved in GamerGate is on this sub. Not to mention all those popular posts about how this sub is constantly concern trolled/etc and how many of those less than 10,000 subs are actually pro-GG anyway?

    [–]White_Phoenix 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    The problem is we can't post to those media outlets anymore about stuff like this.

    [–]DrDeezee 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    That has absolutely zero to do with my point about this sub (which has 0.16% of the readership of /r/gaming by comparison) and it's attitude of thinking that it is literally #GamerGate. The reason I brought up those other subs was to give a general idea of how many gamers use reddit. No, not every gamer is a #GamerGater, but the idea that this sub is somehow the epicenter or voice of #GamerGate is also patently stupid.

    With the prevalence of posts recently complaining about how often this sub is concerned trolled among other things, how many of our less than 10,000 subs are even pro #GamerGate to begin with?

    I'm not saying this is a BAD sub or anything. Just pointing out the idea that this sub somehow is "OMG LITERALLY #GAMERGATE U GUISE" doesn't make sense.

    [–]endertargaryen 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I pulled 2 things away from this:

    1) don't pre-order, this has been a long-standing mantra at PCMR and it should be rule-of-thumb (do you really need that extra swag mouse pad or t-shirt?)

    2) As long as You Tubers make it clear that they were paid by the company for their review (Boogie's SoM video: "This video has been sponsored by WB.") I see no issue. The issue we've had with journalism, ethics, and corruption have mainly been lying and lack of open communication. In this case, Boogie makes it clear that he is being paid for making that video, so we can expect to only see the good and not the bad. He even says at the very beginning that he has been asked by WB to show you the game.

    This to me is as transparent as it gets other than just saying "They are paying me to show you only the good and none of the bad", and let's be honest, he's trying to make a living, so I think the disclosure he is already giving is excellent.

    [–]imba8 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I think he is trying to paint YouTubers with the same brush as Game Journalists. He did make quite a few valid points but the whole gamergaters ignoring this issue seems off the mark.

    [–][deleted] 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I think this is relevant to #GamerGate, but it's not about the youtubers - as TB said it's about the PR.

    Why is it relevant though?

    1. This is an issue of transparency. Had SoM been a bad game and youtubers not spoken up this could have mislead gamers to buying the product due to misleading reviews and promotions.
    2. This is an issue of the companies being anti-consumer and using journalists (e.g. in alt universe had these contracts been sent to Kotaku) to exploit consumers.
    3. When Youtubers promote a game, and are part of a company's marketing channel - they have responsibility similar to journalists. They are part of the process that informs consumers about products.
    4. The SoM PR people didn't send review copies to people who didn't agree to their exploitative contract. They are promoting bad ethics and hurting reviewers who choose to be ethical.

    Had the youtubers not disclosed - this would be EXTREMELY relevant to #GamerGate as it would be unethical behaviour by people acting in a similar capacity to journalists. But instead, it's only "pretty dang relevant" because it's about transparency between developers/publishers/pr and journalists/other to gamers.

    [–]jessemb 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The reason we're not super outraged about game reviews being bought and sold is because we already know.

    We've known for years.

    We're outraged about Games Journalism because they're supposed to be a check against the big developers. They're supposed to hunt down the truth about these games and deals and present them to us. You know, journalism?

    We've put up with Kotaku, Polygon, etc for as long as we have because we thought, however foolishly, that they were on our side. We aren't mindless witch-hunting inquisitors; we understand that it's a rough business with a constant temptation toward corruption.

    It's when we heard that "Gamers were Dead" that we exploded--not just because it confirmed that the business was even more corrupt than we feared, but also because the people who were supposed to be on our side turned against us. It's not just corruption--it's betrayal.

    I don't watch a lot of Youtube reviews. I didn't even know who TotalBiscuit or JonTron were before Gamergate exploded. (And I didn't really care who they were, to be honest, before reddit started censoring threads and comments about them.)

    But if Youtubers can convince us that they're on our side, we'll put up with an awful lot of corporate fuckery to support them. It's when they turn against us--knowing that we've supported them all these years, knowing that they depend on us for their income, knowing that they were supposed to be our advocate against Big Marketing--well, that's when we pick up the pitchforks.

    [–]brandonclyon 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Also those channels that got early releases are able to monetize their videos while everyone else (myself included) has their videos flagged and monetization disabled.

    [–]Trot1217 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    My problem with the deal is Warner DMCA claimed video's of people playing the game if they didn't accept the deal. I was watching Mathas play but he stopped the series because his video's were claimed. I'm all right with sponsored content but what Warner was doing wasn't just sponsorship it was also censoring anyone who didn't agree to only cover the positives in their LP's.

    [–]EinsamWulf 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    This is the exact kind of thing that has infested both print and websites and we cannot allow it to continue to spread. I'm not going to lie, I am considering not ever purchasing Shadows of Mordor after this, as much as I was looking forward to the game, I feel it is more important to vote with my wallet and say this is wrong.

    [–]ChronoDeus 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I would say that this blog by TheKodu applies here.

    In short, we aren't up in arms because people are actually discussing said problems in the normal places those problems would be discussed, and journalists aren't attacking people for discussing it.

    [–]tcata 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I'm fine with youtubers doing advertisement spots. They just need to have a big disclaimer at the start of the video where they state that it is a paid advertisement piece and for that reason, negative aspects of the product will not be shown but that this is not indicative of whether they exist or not.

    [–]DMXWITHABONER 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

    i love how they take a real smug tone like "why doesnt gamergate care about THIS? eh??!?!"

    its because its already being talked about and isnt being censored repeatedly

    like if every shadow of mordor thread had 20 thousand deleted posts and hundreds of banned people then wed probably give it as much attention

    as it is its already being discussed by people with more power, ie youtubers

    its almost as if allowing discussion lets people come to conclusions instead of focusing on the censorship!

    [–]bluefingin -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    i love how they take a real smug tone like "why doesnt gamergate care about THIS? eh??!?!"

    They have to imply that no one else has heard about it/cares about it or else they seem like they are just parroting news they heard from someone else. Very common tactic from mediocre journalists and news outlets. Pretend like no one but you knows about this amazing story.

    [–]DMXWITHABONER -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    it comes across to me as a "stop picking on us, go pick on that big company"

    [–]ash0787 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    We already know the publishers are greedy and filthy though, GG is more about how the journalist side interacts with that

    [–]BasediCloud 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Too bad we do not have real gaming journalists who do their jobs and call out practices like that. Actually asking the questions is too hard for them. So somehow that is our fault.

    [–]onetwobuckleshoe 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

    Yep I agree totally with the article on this. If GamerGate wants to tackle corruption then it definitely needs to get onto this shit. YouTubers shouldn't be immune from criticism.

    The boogie video was honest enough. But how many YouTubers are taking these deals and NOT disclosing? That's a massive ethical problem.

    [–]aquapendulum2 7ポイント8ポイント  (5子コメント)

    Aren't GamerGaters happy because it IS being disclosed to them? I don't get it the point Kain was trying to make. They want transparency, they got it.

    [–]onetwobuckleshoe -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

    But which YouTubers are taking these deals and not disclosing it?

    GG should be dredging up every Shadow of Mordor video to find out...

    [–]aquapendulum2 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    That would be presuming guilty until proven innocent.

    [–]penguished 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Part of the thing here is ones that take deals like that are so shitty they're not even relevant to this audience anyway. Like no one has heard of them or will. They're lame ass spammers basically.

    The bigger concern is when outlets that are relevant are having issues. That's disturbing, because it means people that should be the intellectual guardians of their field are giving up on that.

    [–]onetwobuckleshoe -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

    That doesn't make sense for the publishers. Why would they offer these contracts to YouTubers who have no audience?

    I mean, it's great the TB outed this, but I have the feeling if a similar contract appeared that was offered to Kotaku people would be making more of a fuss.

    [–]penguished 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    People did make a fuss when Microsoft offered this kind of youtube ad stuff, I think for Xbox One? I dunno, I guess in general the youtube community HAS been policing itself.

    Where the Kotaku's and even more commercial stuff like IGN and Gamespot... nobody knows because they're not transparent about anything ever.

    [–]trunky 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I was considering purchasing Shadow of Mordor after hearing all the praise it was getting. No way I will ever purchase now.

    [–]stillnotking 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Wow, I had no idea the contract was so specific about requiring positive coverage. When TB mentioned it in his "WTF is...", it sounded more like it just implied the reviewer should talk up the game.

    This is horrible. I guess we should have expected that the PR parasites would get their hooks into the YouTubers eventually, but this needs to be fought tooth and nail. We need to demand that ALL reviewers fully disclose any endorsement deals they've made or been offered.

    [–]bluefingin 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Alright Forbes, I turned off my adblock for you. Don't fuck this up. You're not going to get a second chance.

    [–][deleted] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    There's a series of things that actually "saved" the situation from the Wrath of the Unwashed Masses.

    • The game wasn't shit.
    • The game wasn't shit.
    • The game wasn't pretentious shit.
    • The advocates... advocated.
    • The advocates didn't shut down a topic of discussion; instead they opened themselves to criticism and carried on dialogue.

    Also, the game wasn't shit.

    [–]goontar 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Does it bother anyone else that they screwed up the second line of the ring inscription in their subsection headers?

    [–]Sinsight2 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    There's probably not enough of it on twitter. We should definitely rail on that hideous contract en masse. Its review fixing regardless of whose being influenced

    [–]Muesli_nom 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I gotta say I've been pretty vocal on my usual forums about the youtube deal with SoM; More than one person will not be getting Shadow of Mordor because of the business practices displayed by WB and affiliates. Personally, I think this deal is shady in the way the bowels of an orc are "shady". I also have unsubbed from boogie over it (his reasons are pretty weak to me) - the only youtube reviewer I was subbed to apart from TB.

    Now, I, too have noticed that this brand deal did not get a lot of connection with and traction within GamerGate. My personal thesis on this is simply that GG has gone of for a fucking neternity, and people are weary and spent. A lot of people may simply have been cynical, and said: "This shit happens with a regularity that beggars belief. Yea, this is what we are fighting against, and as long as we just focus on GamerGate, this too shall pass."

    But I think Kain is right on this one: This is exactly the shit we are fighting against, and as such, GG should take an interest in it. Maybe precisely because it concerns youtube and not the "usual suspects": This fucking corruption is everywhere, and fighting it in the gaming press is only the beginning.

    We as consumers need to realize that we give the industry a lot of power over the people that should be on our side: A lot of us are clamouring for first-day reviews, a lot of us are mindlessly pre-ordering, a lot of us are throwing money at Day-One, On-Disc DLC, a lot of us are so hooked on our gaming crack that we will not wait a week or two before a purchase. We are enablers of shitty deals like this.

    [–]MuNgLo 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    While clearly an awful deal it is worth noting that many of those that took the deal might not identify as gaming journalists or critics. If they are just pushing LP content they would fall in a gray zone for ethics.
    Don't get me wrong. Even LP content needs disclosure and such but in those cases it will mostly come down to the relationship between the youtuber and his followers. If he takes shitty deals and risk to lose everything so be it. Can he take the deals and still make entertainment for his followers? Maybe that is enough. While still disclosing of course.
    But lets players are entertainers, not journalists or critics. There is a difference. A customer that base his purchase on LP content would hopefully seen enough to form an informed opinion but at the same time isn't really a smart customer.

    I would love to see some information on how many SoM videos where produced the first day. How many of those fulfil the contract criteria and separate them by content type. But that would take a whole lot of time I bet to put together.

    Oh and not to mention Eriks point of looking up which games the PR firm previously handled. Then crosscheck that to first list.

    To bad we can't rely on journalists to do some journalistisism stuff ;)

    [–]crazy_o 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

    This story should get to the top of the sub today.

    I don't think so, it's not like the discussion is discouraged everywhere else. If it were to be deleted in r/games and people shadowbanned, than we should make it a top priority. Since it's not, I don't see a reason to discuss it here too.

    [–][deleted] 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Please don't like other sudreddits. Rule 5

    [–]crazy_o 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Sorry deleted it. Is the automatic linking through /r/ still ok?

    [–][deleted] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I honestly have no idea. You'd have to ask a mod. Things on reddit are strange.

    [–]IAmSupernovaCosmic Overlord - @SupaNovaKiA 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I'm not sure I understand the question.

    [–]crazy_o 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Already messaged you guys and got my answer.

    [–]Grumblefly 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    This is again... complete and utter bullshit. We are not ignoring the issue, but right now we are focusing our attention and energy on the people who are openly, and continually slandering us! Yes we want transparency and integrity in journalism! Our movement is probably the only reason this story is such a big fucking deal. We are an oppressed voice which is focusing on the oppressor at the moment. Once we get some equal footing, and some recognition then we would have a couple of fucks left over to give this outrageous situation. This marketing deal is a symptom of the systemic issues, how the press has been so cozy with PR that this shit is allowed, and yet the Press continue to deflect blame onto US, the consumer.

    [–]ZoSoZodiac -1ポイント0ポイント  (7子コメント)

    I was starting to wonder about this game and it's scores after watching Destiny, the pro starcraft player, rip it apart: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AV9W2ZdmjU

    Polygon gave this game that you can play with the monitor off a 9.5 out of 10. It's got a lot of positive reviews on steam, but after watching that video, I'm pretty confused. It doesn't look like a game I would want to play at all if there is no challenge or no real risk of failure.

    [–]DrDeezee 5ポイント6ポイント  (6子コメント)

    Someone linked that video in an IRC channel I frequent and it's pretty stupid, honestly.

    The point at which he turns off the monitor and kills things is after he activates an end-game ability that gives you 20 seconds of free execution moves, which automatically target the nearest enemy and kill them. Wow, it's super difficult to kill enemies without visual cues using an ability designed to make you a god of death!

    He has lots of end game abilities in that video. Yes, you can spam the jump key and be virtually invulnerable, but at the same time, that isn't going to get you any kills. I heard he supposedly made it as a response to the fact that in a review or something he chickened out of a stronghold fight by running away. There's a big difference between having a bunch of end game abilities from the bottom of the ability tier list (like the super he abuses, or the fact he can do two executes per red combo meter) and being fairly fresh in the game world. In fact, you don't really start to get overpowering abilities until about the fourth power tier, which takes a while (and the fifth and final tier is where you get some insane ones which he benefits from in the video).

    Granted, it's not as if the game was MEANT or even MARKETED to be a challenge. It pretty much whole heartedly rips a battle system that's been in use for over 5 years, so if you've played any of the Batman games you'll already be good at Shadow of Mordor. But dumb trolly video is dumb.

    [–]ZoSoZodiac 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Thanks for that, didn't realize he was using end game stuff.

    [–]DrDeezee 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

    No problem.

    Pretty much everyone agrees that after a certain point, the game just becomes very easy. (Most people place it around the half way point as far as story missions are concerned, when you unlock the ability to "brand" enemies - to turn them into your allies, basically.) What's funny is that there's even more mindless ways to break the combat than what he showed in that video. The problem I have with the video is that he was trying to pass it off as representative of combat at an early point in the game or something when that's just patently false.

    ::EDIT:: To elaborate, I've played some Arkham Asylum but never beat it and didn't play any of the other Batman games. I'm generally pretty good at games, however. I rarely died in Shadow of Mordor, and all of my deaths were limited exclusively to the first portion of the game before getting to the fourth power tier. Most of them were in strongholds where I'd raise the alarm and get swarmed by a bunch of enemies and captains at the same time. I don't generally run from fights so I'd play til I died.

    Also, I died a few times to roving bands of the dog-monster things (Caragors). Short of having the ability to instantly teleport to and dominate/brand them (a tier 5 ability), they can be a real pain to deal with at any point.

    However, just because the game is ~easy~ doesn't mean it isn't ~fun~. It's pretty satisfying to be able to trash a stronghold and decimate all the captains whereas earlier in the game you got your dick kicked in. Your mileage may vary, I guess.

    ::EDIT 2:: Also for the record, he's playing in one of the strongholds in the first game map but with all those end game abilities and so on. While this might seem like a minor quibble, the fact of the matter is, unless you INTENTIONALLY level up the captains in this zone (by issuing death threats, helping them out in their power struggles, advancing time in the game world to let them naturally level up - which also happens when you die - or any combination of the aforementioned 4 methods to make the game difficult) then you're going to be facing low level captains and not the full variety of enemy uruk. So, just another thing. The second zone does feature more hardened captains with less vulnerabilities and more immunities as well as some enemy types he didn't encounter.

    [–]gettinginfocus 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

    He also was beat enemies by just spamming left and right click.

    The game is easy if you're used to this style of combat - it needs a difficulty slider.

    [–]DrDeezee 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

    He probably has the double damage when your sword is flashing blue ability, since normally it's pretty difficult to break a shield with a regular attack (which he does often.)

    He also could have many epic or high level runes which increase damage and so on.

    He turns off the monitor twice, as far as I can tell. Once when he was only fighting 3 regular Uruks, and then again when he starts spamming the ultimate that gives you 20 seconds of free kills. He still manages to almost die. (I think it was pretty lucky he passed the revival QTE blind - it randomly starts you with a direction you have to move your cursor towards AND randomizes the button you have to press in order to revive, and if you press ANY button out side the zone OR the wrong button inside the zone you fail and die.)

    I'm not arguing it's a hard game. I've broken combat way more than he has (http://www.twitch.tv/goydotcom/b/574115923 - I also mess up and die at about 18:18, lol). But I don't get the point of his video... "LOOK AT ME USE ALL THESE EASY MODE ABILITIES TO MAKE THE GAME EASY MODE GOD WHAT SCHLOCKY SHIT."

    [–]gettinginfocus 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I think the point of the video was to respond to those who said the combat was perfect. It clearly has some major flaws, and that hurts some of the major innovations. I could never get into the Nemesis system because I could never really die.

    Even without all the crazy late game stuff, you can still

    • Dodge forever

    • Counter by spamming right click

    • Instakill any orc with a head shot

    And that's without any late game abilities. Add on the late game abilities - which you shouldn't discount as they are in the game - and you're basically invinisible.

    They needed to make the warchiefs harder. If I try to vault over one that blocks it, I should take damage. If I try a combat or stealth finisher on someone who blocks it, I should take damage. I should be scared of fighting a level 20 orc without intel - otherwise what's the point of intel?

    [–]DrDeezee 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    >invinsible

    Reminded me of this: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=236960736

    Anyway, the people in IRC who linked the video (as well as the person who linked it here) were under the impression that you can just jump into a brand new game and do what this guy does, which you can't.

    I agree, it's difficult to die. As I said elsewhere, the only times I died were early on, usually in stronghold situations with many ranged attackers attacking me at once while I was focusing on melee and with several captains in the fight as well.

    There are also some nasty ranged captains who got me a few times because they could fire like 5 crossbow bolts at once and take away all my health, plus they had the trait that made it so they nullify your revival QTE thing.

    Personally I think they should just remove the level limit on Orcs all together once you beat the game. But again, I don't think this was ever developed (nor marketed) as a game that was supposed to be all that challenging.

    ::EDIT:: Plus, if you're good at a game, it's easy to make it look easy. Examples: Some guy beat Dark Souls with a Rock Band controller. SinisterWon can get all the way to Mike Tyson in Mike Tyson's Punch Out blindfolded (or, basically, "with the monitor off.") Some StarCraft 2 streamer got to diamond or master division using an Xbox360 controller.

    Some people aren't good at Shadow of Mordor and die a lot. I've seen some people complain they're so bad that they made the game unwinnable because every Captain in the starting zone leveled up so much because they died so much. The game certainly could have benefited from a difficulty slider that did things like make counter less spammable and tightened the requirements on combos and critical hits or something, sure.

    ::EDIT 2:: Also as far as headshotting an orc and killing them, while that is an ability you start with, without upgrades you have enough focus to headshot maybe 2 orcs before it goes back to real time aiming mode and you only start with 4 arrows by default. The only way to get back arrows is to drain an enemy, which requires a significant portion of time in which you can be knocked out of the animation if you're in a stronghold fight.