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ukpolitics

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Political articles and debate concerning the United Kingdom.
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all 141 comments-
[–]Duke0fWellingtonUltra-Tory | Haven't the foggiest [score hidden]  (49 children)
Of course it will. To the people who are saying "yeah but the standards are the same so it will only be the capable women", I put this to you. What happens in a few years and the army are looking at the statistics of pass rates in infantry training? And they see a higher percentage of people failing because of the addition of more women? Do you think the standards won't be lowered then?
[–]RavelsBoleroClassic Liberal[S] [score hidden]  (47 children)
Even if women can pass, a man that passes is still better than a woman who passes. Higher bone density, less prone to injury, less prone to stress, higher strength for carrying/dragging, better aim with a gun etc
[–]InlogoraccountanEnglish Libertarian - I do shitpost [score hidden]  (17 children)
Employ only trans-women, problem solved.
[–]Tiothae comment score below threshold[score hidden]  (16 children)
Never miss an opportunity to make a joke of trans women, huh?
Edit: I was trying to remember why I have /u/Inlogoraccountan flagged as downvoted in the past - turns out it was because they were referring to homosexuals as degenerates. What a great person.
Second edit: I may've been wrong in thinking that /u/Inlogoraccountan was mocking trans women, so I'll take that back. My later points stand though.
[–]InlogoraccountanEnglish Libertarian - I do shitpost [score hidden]  (14 children)
Who said it was a joke?
Edit: I don't remember you, nor do I flag Redditors. Say what you will...
[–]Tiothae [score hidden]  (13 children)
Well, if you were being serious, then it's just ignorant.
Hormones that trans women take negate things like higher strength which is down to testosterone. It doesn't affect bone density (much), but all of the other parts would be just like a cis woman.
[–]InlogoraccountanEnglish Libertarian - I do shitpost [score hidden]  (12 children)
I would have thought that depends on the time of transition and the length of time since that happened.
But regardless of that...SRS'er out in the wild.
[–]Tiothae [score hidden]  (11 children)
Well, sporting organisations usually put a time limit of between one and two years to allow hormones to negate the effects of testosterone. That isn't very long if you're including military training and whatnot.
Sure, I post on SRS, I'm not afraid of saying that I think that there are a lot of scummy people on reddit and laughing at their ignorance takes the edge of it.
[–]Doomsday11 [score hidden]  (2 children)
You really shouldn't be proud of posting on SRS it's a shitty subreddit that promotes witch hunts and brigading.
[–]twersxpoliticalcompass is useless | Remain [score hidden]  (0 children)
its a pretty dull subreddit but out of the well known meta subreddits its probably the one that brigades the least.
[–]Tiothae [score hidden]  (0 children)
I disagree that it's shitty, but each to their own. I also disagree about witch hunts and brigading, although it does appear to have happened in the past (3 years ago was the most recent that I've seen), all that stopped before I even joined reddit, so I'm not too fussed about that.
[–]InlogoraccountanEnglish Libertarian - I do shitpost [score hidden]  (7 children)
It's a shame that being inclusive is looked down upon when it comes from a cis guy. If mandatory enlistment was called for I'd expect everyone to perform their duty in the roles asked of them, no excuses.
[–]Tiothae [score hidden]  (6 children)
It's a shame that being inclusive is looked down upon when it comes from a cis guy.
Are you referring to yourself? If so, it's because I don't believe you were being sincere.
If mandatory enlistment was called for I'd expect everyone to perform their duty in the roles asked of them, no excuses.
I don't get the relevance of this - who is saying that people wouldn't perform their duty if mandatory enlistment was called for?
[–]genitame [score hidden]  (0 children)
Oh look a regressive leftist
[–]Honey_Otter [score hidden]  (25 children)
... What evidence is there women have worse aim and are more injury or stress prone?
I agree on strength etc. But that's why they should ne held to the same minimum strength standards as the men.
[–]Ivashkinpanem et circenses [score hidden]  (0 children)
What the USMC found is that women can reach the same standards, but more fail and the ones that meet them will need more work to get there. There is an interesting article on the subject here written by a women who attempted the IOC.
[–]stev1212Save us Leadsom! [score hidden]  (1 child)
The Americans and Israelis have been running tests for many years on these subjects. I haven't got the links to hand (I'm on phone) but a Google search should suffice.
[–]AtomicKoalaIrish Parliamentary Party [score hidden]  (0 children)
Things like BMD scores are common knowledge. The military has to prioritise other things over social equality. I support allowing women to serve in frontline roles but I don't necessarily support lowering standards. Physical fitness is hugely important. The average woman is going to be a lot weaker, thus men will remain as the vast majority of frontline troops, which could pose problems for the minority of women.
If we had conscription as Israel does this would be less of an issue.
[–]aonomeCentre-right libertarian [score hidden]  (0 children)
Women in general, while having better fine motor skills than men, have far worse gross motor skills. This is very important in combat. Here is a medical scientific paper explaining.
[–]KlutchAtStrawsfiscally conservative, socially liberal [score hidden]  (1 child)
Here you go, the Israeli experience on integrating a combat unit.
[–]whitepalms85 [score hidden]  (0 children)
lol, that's not an acceptable source...
[–]RavelsBoleroClassic Liberal[S] [score hidden]  (10 children)
The evidence is biological. Women have thinner skin and lower bone density for example. And there actually have been military experiments which show untrained males generally have marksmanship equal to trained females
[–]WillyPete [score hidden]  (7 children)
Yet women, in those same tests, perform better in armoured unit roles.
They also outperform men in fighter aircraft roles, due to generally being shorter in height, and thicker in the thigh, aiding against prolonged exposure to G forces.
[–]JamesChan93 [score hidden]  (1 child)
Which is is completely understandable. But this is definitely not the case for infantry or commando units.
[–]WillyPete [score hidden]  (0 children)
Which is why I did not include them.
Having been infantry, and training alongside women, I have my own opinions of this.
[–]WillyPete [score hidden]  (2 children)
oh god. I had a huge post written. lost it.
Anyway, precis time.
Turns out I had bad info.
The info I was regurgitating (from an old documentary on the training of USAF pilots) must have been based on the faulty assumption that since height is inversely proportional to g-tolerance and women are in general shorter, they must be better.
Here's the best of my sources that show there is in fact negligible difference in gender performance in high performance aircraft.
Google cache link to avoid pdf download Women in Military Aviation
C1C Katrine M. Waterman Department of Behavioral Sciences and Leadership
Dr. James C. Miller Human-Environmental Research Center
United States Air Force Academy
We reviewed many factors here, from the behaviors of males and females to their abilities to withstand G forces.
Despite some basic cognitive and physical differences between the genders, all the research to date on the topic of whether females are as suited as men for the cockpit has concluded that sex-discrimination in the training or performing of flying careers is not scientifically supported.
Carretta completed his study on gender acquisition of pilot skills by saying that there is "no argument for a sex-separated training syllabus" (1997).
In 1986, Gillingham and colleagues looked at women's G tolerance and its relationship to flying. Their research led to the conclusion that "women should not categorically be excluded from aircrew duties for reasons of G tolerance." Newsom and colleges also studied female tolerance to +GZ centrifugation.
They discovered that female "tolerance to a selected level of +GZ acceleration did not differ significantly from that observed in males" (1977).
Baisden (1997) researched Gender and Performance in Naval Aviation Training.
She resolved that the attrition rate for females in pilot training was not significantly different from that of the male's attrition rate.
Another study by Carretta on differences in gender on pilot selection tests indicated that although there were sex differences in mean test performance, models of ability and flying skills "showed similar results for men and women" (1997).
Lyons' research on aeromedical concerns for females in the cockpit looked at many health interests that might be a factor in the flying world. He concluded, "although men on are on the average, larger, stronger, and more aerobically fit than women, there are large variations within each sex and a large overlap between the sexes" (1992).
Last, a study by Cannon (1986) showed that women were just as capable as men at using a peripheral display in the cockpit.
There is some current discussion on the f35b ejection seat. If your body weight is below 135lbs, you risk a broken neck due to the helmet weight.
Women have thinner, less muscular necks.
[–]The_5_Laws_Of_Gold [score hidden]  (1 child)
Respect to you for admitting mistake something that you don't see everyday on internet.
[–]WillyPete [score hidden]  (0 children)
Too many times I repeat what I've seen on tv or been told by a reputable source.
We all need our version of truth challenged so that we verify our "truth". I find I become a better person for it.
oh, and thank you.
[–]RavelsBoleroClassic Liberal[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)
They also outperform men in fighter aircraft roles
They most certainly do not. If you're thinking of the same shitty social experiment I am done by the indian army which suggests that (and also suggests women can get as strong as men without testosterone,) then it was basically produced in the name of political correctness.
How can they be better in fighter planes considering any man who has trained his legs, assuming they are both lean in bodyfat, will have the thicker thighs? They also have better spatial reasoning generally.
And as you said, the G-force advantage isn't a woman thing, it's a short person thing. Indians are not generally tall so I can't see why an indian army would suggest that.
Also, the G-force advantage of a short person has been disputed in other research
[–]whitepalms85 [score hidden]  (1 child)
So, you don't have a source and just made that up? And how are skin and bone density relevant?
[–]RavelsBoleroClassic Liberal[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)
Bone density is directly relevant to one's likelihood of injury
[–]PabloPeubloWe did it! [score hidden]  (7 children)
Women have worse hand eye co-ordination. Which is quite useful when aiming a gun.
[–]Devlinukr [score hidden]  (5 children)
You sound like some kinda expert there fellah.
[–]Devlinukr [score hidden]  (3 children)
I was just being sarcastic, I completely agree with you.
[–]PabloPeubloWe did it! [score hidden]  (2 children)
Ah ok, getting tired of seeing that joke is all lad
[–]Devlinukr [score hidden]  (1 child)
The whole thing is literally political correctness gone mad, who the fuck wants to go into combat?
Bollocks to that, I'm sure the first female soldiers who get captured and raped by the enemy won't be glad they got equal rights.
[–]PabloPeubloWe did it! [score hidden]  (0 children)
I'm sure people will find a way to blame the British military somehow...
[–]whitepalms85 [score hidden]  (0 children)
lol, here everyone just makes up some nonsense.
[–]Gnome_Commander [score hidden]  (1 child)
Better aim sounds a little iffy as an arguement, and the strength is bullshit as the women will still have to pass the fitness tests
[–]RavelsBoleroClassic Liberal[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)
And as I've said fitness tests passed by both don't make them equal. A 150lbs man and a 150lbs women who can both run the distance are still not equal.
And having good aim as a frontline soldier is pretty important, and the finding than untrained males can have equal marksmanship to trained females is pretty damning
[–]Samwasking [score hidden]  (0 children)
Any sources on men are better with guns? Or any of that shit. Stress? Are you sure?
[–]Olpainless [score hidden]  (0 children)
Yeah, like how the YPJ is shit... Oh wait, they're kicking ISIS arse while fully equipped British Soldiers spent a decade doing fuck all.
[–]-INFOWARS-Legalise Freedom [score hidden]  (19 children)
Honestly, what's wrong with this?
As long as there is no lowering of standards, about 10 women will probably pass.
If they pass the tests required, what's the problem?
[–]richie030 [score hidden]  (0 children)
I was in the army when this was bring discussed, the general information being passed down was that standards will be lowered, this is all political and nothing to do with improving the army.
There are some seriously fit women in the army who can go toe to toe with the men, but you only have to look around any army camp on a week day morning and watch while a majority of females lag behind their male counterparts.
I do most definitely agree that some women could make the cut, but it's a very small percentage. I just don't see the point in changing the rules unless you are going to lower the standards. If you don't lower the standards then you may get 1 or 2 girls per platoon, the cost and effort of accommodating and catering for a females extra needs is just not worth it for the sake of 1 or 2 girls per platoon.
Keep them in support roles, it's what works, it's not a broken system, there isn't a massive cry from females in the army to be front line. We're meant to be keeping costs down in the army, let's just leave it be. This is another case of someone in a suit deciding what is best for something he/she hasn't got a fucking clue about just for the sake of political points. I hope nothing bad comes from this decision.
[–]RavelsBoleroClassic Liberal[S] [score hidden]  (10 children)
The problem is, as I've said, that a woman who passes isn't equal to a man who passes
[–]whitepalms85 [score hidden]  (1 child)
That's the dumbest argument ever. So then just adjust the test. You are just making up random things without any proof that they are real and relevant.
[–]RavelsBoleroClassic Liberal[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)
And this is the issue: eventually it gets to people arguing for lower standards
[–]-INFOWARS-Legalise Freedom [score hidden]  (7 children)
why
[–]RavelsBoleroClassic Liberal[S] [score hidden]  (4 children)
They're more prone to injury and stress, have less ability to pack on muscle, there are also general marksmanship advantages men have, possibly due to spatial reasoning being affected by testosterone (some speculate this is also why men are generally better drivers than women).
No 120lbs woman is going to be able to drag/carry a 200lbs with like 80lbs of gear man over a battlefield, it doesn't matter how many chin-ups she can do in the barracks, or how "fit" she is.
[–]Gnome_Commander [score hidden]  (1 child)
Look at the fitness tests then
[–]The_5_Laws_Of_Gold [score hidden]  (0 children)
Soldier is not a fitness instructor. There is much more to front line soldier than being physically fit. There is a reason why man and woman don't play sports together.
Biology made us the way we are and even though we are equal we are not the same. Man are stronger, testosterone levels alone allow man to be stronger, have stronger bones. If 10 man fall from X height 3 will break the bone, if 10 woman fall from the same height 8 will that alone is a reason we shouldn't do it. Not only will the woman life be at danger but also life of anyone else who depends on them.
Eye to hand coordination is better in man. Yes trained woman can get better than untrained man but train man will be on average better than train woman.
[–]KikariskaCorbynistas4Leadsom [score hidden]  (1 child)
Could a 120lb man?
[–]RavelsBoleroClassic Liberal[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)
With strength training, yes. Men have the advantage of testosterone which aids packing on muscle and strength (so he could with effort gain weight, or simply stay the same weight but train strength with high weight, and low reps with w/e amount of rest time).
[–]cbfw86why can't i hold all this control? comment score below threshold[score hidden]  (0 children)
Because they're women. Duh.
[–]Tiothae comment score below threshold[score hidden]  (0 children)
Because OP doesn't want anything in the way of their discrimination.
[–]rust95 [score hidden]  (5 children)
If you were bayonet charging at goose green, would you rather have a man or a woman?
If the answer is well I would rather a man but I don't mind, then answer the question why would you want a man. Therein lies the answer to your question.
[–]LaboeRechtsstaat über alles [score hidden]  (4 children)
bayonet charging
This isn't 1942 anymore. Modern combat, with IR vision, drone 24/7 surveillance, AWACS etc, the idea that you just "bayonnet charge" is hilarious. Knifing or hand-to-hand combat would also be unlikely, but at least more plausible. An open-field bayonnet charge is just silly.
BTW, the top snipers in the Soviet Union during WWII were disproportionately women.
[–]Chromate_Magnum [score hidden]  (0 children)
There have been bayonet charges in Afghanistan.
[–]ID_tagged [score hidden]  (0 children)
There have been numerous bayonet charges since the end of the second world war, including in the Falklands war at Mount Tumbledown and in Iraq. You'll also often see British soldiers fixing bayonets when clearing compounds in Afghanistan, the British army still believes the bayonet is important.
It doesn't matter if hand to hand and bayonet fighting is less likely now, you still want troops that are capable of wrestling with a trained enemy soldier and killing them. At Mount Tumbledown one British officer had his bayonet break whilst attacking an Argentine soldier, he continued to beat the soldier to death, do you think a woman would have the same physical capability of a man in these circumstances?
[–]rust95 [score hidden]  (0 children)
Fucking retard. I even described a battle that had a bayonet charge in 1982 in my comment, or don't you know what Goose Green is? In the last full scale war between two modernised military forces (the Falklands, since you clearly haven't got a clue what I'm talking about) there were literally numerous occasions where soldiers who ran out of ammo were forced to fix bayonets. Bayonet drill is still taught to every single Joe in depot.
Why would you comment on something so aggressively when you clearly know absolutely fuck all about the topic? Did your Mrs not put out tonight?
[–]richie030 [score hidden]  (0 children)
Jesus Christ, look up CQB in Afghanistan and Iraq, fixing bayonets was common.
[–]OnePonders [score hidden]  (0 children)
What annoys me more than anything is at a time where the army is meant to be cost effective and saving money this little exercise will be the exact opposite. It is expected less than 5% of all women serving in the military will pass the current tests.
What a waste of time.
[–]AeDubhePolitics is a snowglobe. Sometimes you have to shake it up. [score hidden]  (2 children)
Dodgy clickbait Independent headline.
It's his opinion in relation to them now allowing them into close combat infantry roles. Not having women in the army.
[–]RavelsBoleroClassic Liberal[S] [score hidden]  (1 child)
Well that is what this whole discussion is about, yes. front line combat roles. We knew that anyway, it's not clickbait
[–]AeDubhePolitics is a snowglobe. Sometimes you have to shake it up. [score hidden]  (0 children)
It's a poor headline by the Independent because women have been in the army for decades. They didn't have to put the words 'in the army' there, rather front line or combat roles.
It's pretty much what a clickbait headline is - but it was The Independent what wrote it.
[–]InlogoraccountanEnglish Libertarian - I do shitpost [score hidden]  (7 children)
I think political correctness will have died down shortly after the 2020 GE. Momentum will be torching cars in the name of tolerance thereafter but it will be just those guys.
[–]LittleWeeRow [score hidden]  (6 children)
Liberals* are already rioting. As was said in my public order training... the right will usually cooperate because they crave legitimacy. The left are more established in the media & politics and are more anti-establishment, so they're more prone to riot or disobey legal orders.
[–]_numpty [score hidden]  (4 children)
Liberals
Can we please not adopt the american meaning for this? It just muddies the language and gives us less words to say what we mean, especially when it's basically just used as a pejorative you could replace with any number of other terms.
[–]LittleWeeRow [score hidden]  (3 children)
I use the term liberal as it describes those that wish to reach equality within our society. It's not a word just for "Americans", it's an accurate description, especially given the above article is about equality.
I do accept though every political group has many sub groups.
[–]_numpty [score hidden]  (2 children)
I use the term liberal as it describes those that wish to reach equality within our society
It doesn't mean that, precisely. It's more about individual freedom. It's closer to what Americans now call 'Libertarianism' but mostly without the batshit extremist anarcho-capitalist tendencies surrounding taxation, though that's still opposed as much as possible by most Liberals, they tend to prefer reducing taxes on the poor rather than collect it then give them money back in other ways. Labour aren't 'liberals' for example, and anti-fa speech police certainly aren't.
Especially note the bit I'd prefer we avoided expanding:
"It can occasionally have the imported American meaning, including the derogatory usage by (American) conservatives. "
[–]LittleWeeRow [score hidden]  (0 children)
Thanks Numpty for the well put together comment.
I think we can agree that the term liberal, especially in North America has been highjacked from it's initial foundations of liberty. You've got people that rightly or wrongly believe that everyone being equal is a key part of liberty. Obviously, though those practices to achieve that outcome can limit peoples freedom.
Is there a word you'd think would be more appropriate to name the branches I'm speaking about?
[–]InlogoraccountanEnglish Libertarian - I do shitpost [score hidden]  (0 children)
Equality in society is such a nebulous term when referenced against what the influencing factors would be. I prefer the equal distribution of freedom rather than wealth, that would make me more of a US Libertarian and further away from the older definitions.
[–]InlogoraccountanEnglish Libertarian - I do shitpost [score hidden]  (0 children)
These are the people, specifically Liverpudlians, that I rub up against. they claim to be anti authoritarians when pressed against the establishment yet are full on authoritarians when looking at the public. Zero self awareness.
[–]iflipyofareal [score hidden]  (3 children)
Was speaking to a guy last night who's in the navy. He was saying that the problem will be that an injured female on the front line will be more distressing to a male soldier, and people are likely to get hurt trying to help when it might not be safe.
I thought it was an interesting perspective, that it's not the women's fault but the mens instinctive drive to protect women that might be the issue here
[–]RavelsBoleroClassic Liberal[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)
There is also that, and the relationship drama that will arise out of combat too
[–]whitepalms85 [score hidden]  (1 child)
He was saying that the problem will be that an injured female on the front line will be more distressing to a male soldier, and people are likely to get hurt trying to help when it might not be safe.
Yeah, and some guy at the pub also told me some story, so it's totally true and very scientific.
[–]wewladen [score hidden]  (0 children)
The Germans found that out in the last days of WW2 I think.
As the war came to an end they began recruiting pretty much everyone into the military. From what I've heard it had massive detrimental effects on the effectiveness and morale of the the men they served with.
In real war it's kind of important to keep women safe. They're the mothers of your next generation. Having them as front-line soldiers when you've still got millions of young men that could be doing the same job probably better is always a bad idea. Also if you want a good incentive for Islamists to capture and rape British soldiers this is your best one.
[–]SwiftAngel#LeadsomForLeader [score hidden]  (0 children)
This is what really pisses me off about this.
Bullshit identity politics and affirmative action rather than leaving the decision up to the MoD, who categorically say "no".
[–]Olpainless [score hidden]  (0 children)
Absolutely lol at everyone in this thread.
The YPJ called, they think you're all fucking wusses and chatting shit.
[–]20quidThe Party of Beveridge and Keynes comment score below threshold[score hidden]  (11 children)
Having an army costs lives on the battlefield.
[–]DasR1GHT [score hidden]  (0 children)
Having an army saves lives. Fighting unprovoked wars cost lives.
[–]G96Saber [score hidden]  (3 children)
Having a more inefficient army costs more lives than would otherwise be lost.
[–]20quidThe Party of Beveridge and Keynes [score hidden]  (2 children)
How do we know our army is operating at peak efficiency and not overkill? How do we know that we're not beyond the point of diminishing returns, and that dropping standards would actually have no appreciable impact on combat effectiveness in real world scenarios?
[–]G96Saber [score hidden]  (1 child)
How do we know our army is operating at peak efficiency and not overkill?
There is no such thing as overkill.
[–]20quidThe Party of Beveridge and Keynes [score hidden]  (0 children)
Of course there is, what do you think diminishing returns means? The years of work put in by professional athletes to shave a fraction of a second off their time in competition conditions would have no measureable effect on their performance in a combat scenario, or any sort of non-sterile real world environment. That level to fussing over the details would be overkill for real world situations.
[–]PabloPeubloWe did it! [score hidden]  (4 children)
Oh ok, might as well send them out there wearing tin foil and wielding bananas then. Since it costs lives anyway, no point in trying to reduce the amount of lives lost.
[–]20quidThe Party of Beveridge and Keynes [score hidden]  (3 children)
Well not sending them out there would be the best way to try and reduce the amount of lives lost. Especially if it's sending them out to fight an illegal war that destabilises a region and helps to grow a terrorist death cult.
[–]PabloPeubloWe did it! [score hidden]  (2 children)
One bad war doesn't mean we stop having a military and stop using it.
[–]20quidThe Party of Beveridge and Keynes [score hidden]  (1 child)
One? I'm pretty sure we're up to four destabilising conflicts with no end in sight at this point.
[–]The_5_Laws_Of_Gold [score hidden]  (0 children)
That is correct but it still doesn't mean we can demilitarize Britain.
[–]Mark_Corrigan_AMAI blame those white men. [score hidden]  (0 children)
Having lakes cost lives. Are you advocating we scrap the army?
[–]Shockingandawesome [score hidden]  (27 children)
Mixed sexes on the front line will improve the army if the females are good enough to meet the same standards as males.
But this will only work if the army treats them as equal. No special treatment. The same risks. The same will be expected. I'm not being a dick, but females have to earn the same respect of their comrades for it to work.
[–]RavelsBoleroClassic Liberal[S] [score hidden]  (10 children)
It will weaken the army, because "good enough" females are not as good as "good enough" men
[–]Shockingandawesome [score hidden]  (9 children)
But not if you select the best people regardless of gender. If the top 5% (according to article) of females meet the required level, than the top 4% will be better than some of the males.
[–]RavelsBoleroClassic Liberal[S] [score hidden]  (7 children)
Sure, but as we get to very elite levels (think SAS or something similar, or look at the elites for genders in various sports) the differences between elite men and elite women are absolutely worlds apart. There will probably never be women good enough for the SAS.
At the basic level it is not hard for women to out-compete some men. As we get further specialised into training, the differences between men and women become incredibly exaggerated.
Think Rousey vs Lesnar. Or think of Serena Williams, the best female tennis player who has ever lived, who said she could beat any man outside of the top 200 men, and then in practice got absolutely demolished by a half-drunk guy who was the top 203rd player or something, and was advised to change her tune to say she can beat any man outside of the top 600 of the best male players.
[–]Shockingandawesome [score hidden]  (3 children)
The article says: The army's reseach suggests less than 5 per cent of 7,000 female recruits would currently pass the (SAS) physical tests. Obviously men are generally stronger/fitter than women but some 350 are, according to the army, fitter than the males who barely passes and therefore would improve the fitness levels if allowed to join.
[–]RavelsBoleroClassic Liberal[S] [score hidden]  (2 children)
according to the army, fitter than the males who barely passes
It doesn't say that at all. It says 5% of the female recruits would pass. It doesn't make any determination that those that do pass, even barely, would be better than men who barely pass
[–]Shockingandawesome [score hidden]  (1 child)
It's obvious mate. If 350 female recruits passes the minimum criteria at least ONE will be fitter than the least fit male recruit who passed at the minimum criteria.
[–]RavelsBoleroClassic Liberal[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)
Okay, maybe she can run more meters than he can. There is still more likelihood that while doing it she sustains an injury. And he is still probably stronger than her. My point is being a soldier isn't just about passing the tests, it's a whole package of fitness requirements, not just running.
And yes, there are indeed going to be some women who are faster AND stronger than equivalent men. But they are still more prone to stress and injury, which are still liabilities. Sure, there are some who aren't, I get that. But the point is, the forces are not appropriate for carrying out social experiments, they are not a playground, yes it's sad that some women want to be soldiers and aren't allowed to in most places in the world, but it's like that for good reasons.
[–]Ivashkinpanem et circenses [score hidden]  (2 children)
Actually there is a lot more to the SAS than just physically strong fighters. Modern SMU's are far more nerdy than people expect, and having women on board would be of huge help in some situations.
[–]RavelsBoleroClassic Liberal[S] [score hidden]  (1 child)
Oh yeah definitely, I was just using it as an example to show that the differences become exaggerated as we move from average to the elite end of the scale.
I don't doubt that there are a lot of areas women can make great contributions, especially since special forces aren't just front-line combat. Most women I know who wanted to get into the military were more highly qualified than in good physical shape, and went into things like defence software engineering
[–]Ivashkinpanem et circenses [score hidden]  (0 children)
The other thing to consider is that during the wars of the last 25 years or so there has been no front line. One of the most dangerous rolls in Iraq or Afghanistan was being a logistics driver for example, due to the near constant risk of IED's, RPGs or ambushes. Early on it was actually more dangerous to be on a supply run to a FOB than it was to be stationed on the FOB itself. Yet this is an area where many women ended up serving in.
TBH, the biological arguments do have some merit. Looked at in terms of populations, women are the weaker sex. So the reality is that less women will meet the standards, and the ones that make it will need more training and time to get there. But we do need to frame the debate properly, rather than pretend this is a simple issue.
[–]The_5_Laws_Of_Gold [score hidden]  (0 children)
But still top 5% of woman will not be better than top 5% of man.
I don't want soldiers protecting country being "better than some" I want them to be the best there can be.
There is more to combat role than just passing a fitness test. Anyone can run and do press-ups what about being more prone to injury, worse eye to hand coordination, weaker bones?
[–]KlutchAtStrawsfiscally conservative, socially liberal [score hidden]  (0 children)
The Israelis tried it with one battalion in one brigade and had to lower requirements for women and even then they suffered greater injury rates than male soldiers.
Men and women have also been each other's favourite distractions since forever so the gender dynamic is also a huge factor so I don't see how integrating improves the army, unless you're using the 'reflective of society' argument the politicos keep trotting out.
[–]20quidThe Party of Beveridge and Keynes [score hidden]  (14 children)
Honest question, what if the physical standards are unnecessarily high and it was hindering general recruitment? Should they then not be brought down if evidence suggests it wouldn't have an effect on safety? Considering changes in battlefield tech, combat tactics, and the general state of war, how do we know we've got the balance right when it comes to physical standards?
[–]Challenger1978Made in Britain [score hidden]  (5 children)
Should they then not be brought down if evidence suggests it wouldn't have an effect on safety?
It's not about safety it's about combat effectiveness.
[–]20quidThe Party of Beveridge and Keynes [score hidden]  (4 children)
Well let's say evidence suggests bringing down overall standards has no negative affect on combat effectiveness. How do we know we have the balance right, especially in a quick moving world? Everyone points to the idea that if we have to lower standards for women that compromises the safety of their colleagues, but do we have any evidence to suggest it would or is it just a case of "lowering standards must be bad because standards would be lower" without any scientific understanding of what affect that would actually have in a real world scenario?
[–]Challenger1978Made in Britain [score hidden]  (3 children)
Well let's say evidence suggests bringing down overall standards has no negative affect on combat effectiveness.
I'm not trying to be nasty but that's bollocks fella. You literally can not reduce the fitness standards without reducing combat effectiveness.
[–]20quidThe Party of Beveridge and Keynes [score hidden]  (2 children)
You literally can not reduce the fitness standards without reducing combat effectiveness.
Why not? Surely like everything else in the world fitness gets to the point of diminishing returns.
To suggest it is physically impossible to reduce fitness standards without reducing combat effectiveness is akin to saying it is physically impossible to raise fitness standards without improving combat effectiveness, which we both know is not true.
At a point raising standards will not produce any measureable improvements, how do we know we are not already beyond that point?
[–]Challenger1978Made in Britain [score hidden]  (1 child)
OMFG you don't understand do you. Boiling it right down to it's basics, the fitness standards are for how long a soldier can fight at 100% combat effectiveness. If you reduce the standards you reduce how long they can properly fight for. Can you not grasp that basic fact ?
Being a combat soldier is not sitting on their arse at a desk in an office. It's physical hard dangerous work.
[–]20quidThe Party of Beveridge and Keynes [score hidden]  (0 children)
OMFG you don't understand do you.
Go back up to my first post where I said "honest question" and you'll see that I never claimed to understand, that's what I'm trying to do. No need to get mad dude.
Boiling it right down to it's basics, the fitness standards are for how long a soldier can fight at 100% combat effectiveness.
But what are the metrics? You've not explained in any appreciable way how it is actually measured or any of the mechanics behind how it works in practise. How can you suggest we've got the balance right if you don't actually know how these things are judged to be in balance?
Can you not grasp that basic fact?
No because facts are based on evidence, all you've said is if we lower one thing the other will always lower, but you've failed to explain the causal link between the two.
Being a combat soldier is not sitting on their arse at a desk in an office. It's physical hard dangerous work.
You do realise I know that, right? But like I said fitness isn't some bottomless pit where the more fit you get the better you are at physical work, it gets to the point of diminishing returns. How do we know we've balanced our requirements right before the point where fitness starts to provide diminishing returns?
[–]Shockingandawesome [score hidden]  (5 children)
The incredible fitness levels of, say the SAS, are already far higher than will be needed for modern combat. But the stamina levels are necessary for the intense daily training. And fitter soldiers are more composed during combat.
[–]20quidThe Party of Beveridge and Keynes [score hidden]  (4 children)
Wait, are you saying the incredible fitness levels don't have an effect on combat, but are needed for training? If training is more intense than any war zone then surely a lot of it is superfluous and could be removed without any measurable impact on operation effectiveness?
[–]Shockingandawesome [score hidden]  (1 child)
Fitter soldiers are more able to perform better in psychologically stressful situations. They have less chance of injury. They will perform longer in battle situations. They will improve more in training. Most importantly the superfluous levels of fitness are a just in case- because just in case you're injured, fatigued, out of wind or energy, that fitness level will mean the difference of surviving and not surviving.
[–]20quidThe Party of Beveridge and Keynes [score hidden]  (0 children)
But that's only true to a point. Fitness and ability don't rise in proportion to each other. Eventually there will be no point in expecting soldiers to get fitter because it will provide no appreciable difference in combat effectiveness. It's like how top athletes throw absolutely everything into shaving a fraction of a fraction of a second off their time, at that stage you've gone way beyond the point of diminishing returns. Is it really worth it? Or could we lower the standards, lose that split second, but find no real impact on effectiveness in real world scenarios?
[–]The_5_Laws_Of_Gold [score hidden]  (1 child)
Not really. Training to become top sprinter is more demanding than sprinting 100m. It doesn't mean you can train less and get the same results.
Training last longer and is tougher so you can have explosion of energy when you need it in combat situation.
When you weight lift you spend 2 hours at a gym 4 days a week lifting weights. To then go and lift the heaviest weight you can in the competition. Taring itself is harder than final result but it is necessary to achieve that final result.
[–]20quidThe Party of Beveridge and Keynes [score hidden]  (0 children)
But soldiers aren't training for a sprint or for that one lift that will be judged. They have to maintain their activity levels for a possibly indefinite period of time, on and off for months on end. Endurance training doesn't revolve around overexerting yourself so that you'll have an easier time during the marathon, it revolved around slowing increasing the level of activity at which you can remain relatively comfortable for long periods of time. Overexertion is the perfect way to leave your body ill prepared and understocked for a feat of endurance.
[–]rust95 [score hidden]  (0 children)
They're not though, unless your talking totally hypothetically? The army has no problem with recruitment due to overly high fitness standards, so there is no real argument to be had here.
[–]richie030 [score hidden]  (0 children)
Nice idea, but lowering standards should definitely not happen. In my time in service I believe standards should be raised. In my eyes being able to run a mile and a half in 10.30 in British weather does not qualify you to carry 35kg (minimum) around a desert.
[–]Honey_Otter [score hidden]  (8 children)
As front line infantry women should only be allowed if they can pass the same physical tests as the men. No differing standards, no exemptions, they have to pass the same tests and be held to the same standards as the men.
No reason they cant do any other role though.
[–]AtersedProbably wrong [score hidden]  (0 children)
Yeah women currently do every other role. Just not front line stuff
[–]The_5_Laws_Of_Gold [score hidden]  (5 children)
there are standards you can't measure or pass tests on. Bone density, being prone to certain injuries more etc.
[–]Peritract [score hidden]  (4 children)
You could absolutely measure and pass tests on both those things. If those are important factors, then the test can be changed to reflect that.
[–]The_5_Laws_Of_Gold [score hidden]  (3 children)
But would also cost shitloads of money.
[–]Peritract [score hidden]  (2 children)
If these tests are important to combat effectiveness, then we should find the money. If they aren't, people should shut up about them.
[–]The_5_Laws_Of_Gold [score hidden]  (0 children)
We don't have to find a money right now because we have only man in combat roles and all their bones have those things higher than a woman. I would rather have army spend money on better equipment and more helicopters than bone density test on 1000's of woman to find 10 that have it high enough to be equal to man.
[–]twersxpoliticalcompass is useless | Remain [score hidden]  (0 children)
i think the argument is that the increased combat effectiveness is not worth the money, compared to other things it could be spent on. E.g. the army is being downsized, employing more male regs would be a much more cost effective way of improving the military than opening up front line combat roles to women.
[–]whitepalms85 [score hidden]  (0 children)
As front line infantry women should only be allowed if they can pass the same physical tests as the men. No differing standards, no exemptions, they have to pass the same tests and be held to the same standards as the men.
Everyone agrees on that but some people claim that you can't have women even if the pass the test. Why? Just read the comments here, they just make up random stuff.
[–]beansinmypocketDownvoting doesn't make you right [score hidden]  (2 children)
So? It doesn't matter if more soldiers die, so long as we can sub stain a force large enough to repeal attack and exert power.
Soldiers are a resource, a currency to be spent. We just don't tell them that so they will continue fighting on the belief they're doing the right thing.
[–]RavelsBoleroClassic Liberal[S] [score hidden]  (1 child)
This is a really awful attitude, even though it is some respects true. We want good soldiers.
[–]Ivashkinpanem et circenses [score hidden]  (0 children)
The only reason we aren't replacing the infantry with robots is because the robots which could do the work are more expensive.
[–]Pallas_Romantic Nationalist - High Tory [score hidden]  (0 children)
Theyll get him for that one.
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