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/r/allFreedom From Religion Foundation just reminded more than 1,000 public school districts that it would be illegal to plan field trips to the Ark Encounter (patheos.com)
Anti-TheistCharlieDarwin2 が 9時間前 投稿
[–]unamenottaken 727ポイント728ポイント729ポイント 9時間前 (165子コメント)
That was a good idea. A lot of administrators probably needed that reminder and it will save a lot of hassle on both sides. Some of them will ignore it, of course.
[–]lofi76 226ポイント227ポイント228ポイント 7時間前 (141子コメント)
Texas / Kansas / Florida
[–]bonkaiking 85ポイント86ポイント87ポイント 6時間前 (9子コメント)
Kansas isn't a worry, simply for the fact our schools can barely afford teachers let alone field trips
[–]NFeKPo 64ポイント65ポイント66ポイント 4時間前 (4子コメント)
I'm sure they will find money for jebus.
[–]Agnostic AtheistJD_1994_ 16ポイント17ポイント18ポイント 2時間前 (3子コメント)
Like the good book says: Jebus is all about that money.
[–]TheSovietGoose 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 2時間前 (2子コメント)
Or the Beyonce remix: Gentile better have my money
[–]oddchihuahua [スコア非表示] 46分前 (1子コメント)
I believe you mean my home girl RiRi
[–]MidMotoMan 114ポイント115ポイント116ポイント 7時間前 (78子コメント)
Texas...we were lucky if we even went on a field trip in town at all. Let alone something in Kentucky.
[–]sixt5 24ポイント25ポイント26ポイント 7時間前 (19子コメント)
If you come up here as an adult, make sure to do the bourbon tour. A bit of driving but you get to see some great sights and taste quality bourbon.
[–]4gcolt 44ポイント45ポイント46ポイント 4時間前 (2子コメント)
"A bit of driving". "taste quality bourbon". Nothing bad could come of this.
[–]Modo44 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)
Police checkpoints to clean your pockets are set up strategically, don't worry.
[–]sixt5 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
Getting drunk is not permitted lol
[–]AtheistFrenchTaint 23ポイント24ポイント25ポイント 6時間前 (4子コメント)
Do the kids get a discount?
[–]Seriously_Skeptical 18ポイント19ポイント20ポイント 6時間前 (1子コメント)
Yeah, 'cause the little light-weights can only have half measures.
[–]Theistwayno007 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
I don't think so.
[–]somethingspiffy 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 6時間前 (0子コメント)
Kids get in free
[–]Jaigar 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
Bring your kids to the distillery just so you can drink their samples
[–]Agnostic Atheistbgh251f2 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 4時間前 (5子コメント)
And if I don't drink alcohol?
[–]DudeistSprinklypoo 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
Then... Don't?
[–]MacNugget 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
We don't have to leave Texas for quality bourbon!
[–]_tx 35ポイント36ポイント37ポイント 7時間前 (43子コメント)
My wife is a teacher here. They still do field trips. Shitty field trips, but field trips.
[–]Atheistbetterhalf 48ポイント49ポイント50ポイント 6時間前 (34子コメント)
Alamo anyone???? Be sure to route everyone through the gift shop on the way out!!!
[–]c_is_for_nose_8cD 40ポイント41ポイント42ポイント 6時間前 (22子コメント)
Aren't we gonna see the basement?
[–]Anti-TheistBike-o-king 26ポイント27ポイント28ポイント 6時間前 (15子コメント)
There's no basement in the Alamo. Here's a fascinating documentary on it:
https://youtu.be/cYfjq3ZYZbA
[–]kvachon 29ポイント30ポイント31ポイント 6時間前 (9子コメント)
THE STARS AT NIGHT
[–]that_cool_nigga 25ポイント26ポイント27ポイント 6時間前 (8子コメント)
ARE BIG AND BRIGHT
[–]Dandanplatypus 33ポイント34ポイント35ポイント 6時間前 (5子コメント)
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
[–]Xynomite 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
So sad that the tour guide passed away. Can you say it with me.... "Cancer".
[–]Lord_of_hosts 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 5時間前 (3子コメント)
Appreciate the Pee Wee reference
[–]c_is_for_nose_8cD 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 4時間前 (2子コメント)
I feel obligated to try and cheer people up today. If you can pay it forward, I'd appreciate that :cD
[–]imspageti123 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 3時間前 (1子コメント)
Thank you! It did cheer me up! I will pay it forward.
[–]_tx 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 6時間前 (2子コメント)
Wrong part of Texas, but yeah, kids flood the Alamo every year. It is kinda confusing for some of the younger kids though because only the mission is still there. The Alamo of the battle was a MUCH larger compound than what is still there.
[–]AnotherStupidName 15ポイント16ポイント17ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
And then, kids, General Santa Ana's men came charging between Ripley's and Louis Tussaud's...
[–]grasspuddle 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
They only moved the mission there you mean.
[–]Anti-TheistAlashion 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 4時間前 (5子コメント)
I live in Texas, the area I'm in is literally a 8-16 hour trip to the Alamo depending on traffic, it would be easier to have a field trip in Kansas.
[–]jb492 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 4時間前 (1子コメント)
What part of Texas? I drove from El Paso to SA in 8 hours, I thought they were pretty far apart.
[–]oxencotten 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
Since he said it would be easier to have a trip to Kansas I'm assuming he's somewhere up in the pan handle by Amarillo.
[–]Capn_Z_Muhnee 13ポイント14ポイント15ポイント 6時間前 (2子コメント)
When I went to school in Texas, we went on a field trip to the bluebell ice cream factory.
[–]watchitbub 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
Free samples of listeria for everyone!
[–]rcglinsk 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
That sounds like the absolute best possible field trip there could be.
[–]MidMotoMan 8ポイント9ポイント10ポイント 6時間前 (4子コメント)
We got to walk across the street to eat lunch at the nearby duck pond, that's all I remember going to.
[–]_tx 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 6時間前 (3子コメント)
I think I went to the zoo 3 times and the children's museum twice.
We went roller skating once. I'm not really sure what the educational justification for that is.
[–]Hav3_Y0u_M3t_T3d 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 6時間前 (0子コメント)
How being active can also be fun rather than sit in the house all day
[–]MidMotoMan 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 6時間前* (0子コメント)
I think the kids don't care about the justification for that one, I'm sure the teachers were happy to get out of the classroom too.
[–]Summoorevincent 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 5時間前 (7子コメント)
East Kentucky highschool grad here. Had some awesome field trips. D.C. and Bahamas
[–]MidMotoMan 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 5時間前 (1子コメント)
Really? Did y'all have to raise money or the school paid for it?
[–]Summoorevincent 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
Only the bahamas one. Fundraised the hell out of that
[–]jessiemaims 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 5時間前 (1子コメント)
Were Bahamas a choir trip by chance?
Senior trip
[–]Enlightenment777 18ポイント19ポイント20ポイント 6時間前 (5子コメント)
name at least 3 states that are 2 states away from Kentucky, and too far for public school field trips
[–]ZeCommonDenominator 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 6時間前 (3子コメント)
Alot of schools plan field trips states away. Not mine, but my husbands did. He went to a public school in upstate South Carolina and they had chaperoned trips to Mammoth Caves in KY, as well as NYC.
[–]Stone-Bear 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 6時間前 (6子コメント)
Lmao. Florida doesn't have the funds for these field trips to begin with.
[–]No_big_whoop 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 6時間前 (4子コメント)
My kids are Florida school children. They've been on exciting and informative field trip to the local sewage treatment plant.
"Eww.... a tampon!!!"
[–]Stone-Bear 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 6時間前 (0子コメント)
We save up all our life to get the one good field trip to St. Augustine Castle lmao.
[–]elquenuncahabla 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 5時間前 (1子コメント)
I think that would be a fascinating and informative field trip, actually. Of course, I happen to find large-scale industrial control systems to be very interesting, as should any child who aspires to be an engineer... But I guess it will never be as popular as a trip to Universal Studios.
[–]No_big_whoop 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 5時間前 (0子コメント)
For what it's worth both kids reported enjoying the field trip
[–]Secular Humanistmarkd315 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 6時間前 (0子コメント)
Rick Scott pls 😭
[–]AestheticDeficiency 13ポイント14ポイント15ポイント 6時間前 (5子コメント)
Are those three states that are known to incorporate religion with education? I grew up in Florida and went to public school here. Literally never had anyone preach to me in school.
[–]30mag 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 6時間前 (0子コメント)
I'm from Texas. I never got preached at in school. I was in advanced and AP classes though. In world history, we discussed religion as it was historically relevant to different cultures.
[–]RIOTS_R_US 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 6時間前 (3子コメント)
Depends on where you're at
[–]AestheticDeficiency 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 6時間前 (2子コメント)
This is true. I just didn't realize the three states listed were the big offenders, as the guy insinuated.
[–]30mag 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 6時間前 (1子コメント)
I think those states may have some nuts on their respective boards of education.
[–]Skepticcthulhurei8ns 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
That's true. The board has repeatedly attempted to replace evolution with creationism in the textbooks. If I remember right, there was actually some kind of scandal about it. Plus they had an environmental science textbook removed from the curriculum in 2001 I believe for being "anti-christian"
[–]DerekS428 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 5時間前 (5子コメント)
Kansan here. In my experience, teachers avoided the topic of evolution entirely. My high school science teacher knew it's a fact, but didn't want to bring up a "controversial" issue.
It's sad that it has to be that way just because some people refuse to accept reality.
[–]diverdawg 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 4時間前 (2子コメント)
Interesting that Kansas was the genesis of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
[–]Zomunieo 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 4時間前 (1子コメント)
All true believers know his noodles came from Italy.
[–]VergilTheHuragok 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
Fellow Kansan that just went through what the education system calls "Biology." Half the time we spent memorizing the names of birds. The other half was freetime. While they tried to avoid it as much as possible, evolution was taught in my class as the truth (this is good). Climate change was taught by giving us sources on both sides of the issue and having us pick what the truth was for ourselves (this is bad). Don't we go to school to be taught what the truth is based on evidence rather than letting the students further polarize the beliefs they already held? Not even to mention all the misconceptions we were taught as "fun-facts"...
[–]killjoy1001 11ポイント12ポイント13ポイント 6時間前 (0子コメント)
Went to school in Texas, had no indoctrination whatsoever. Both in the city, and the middle of bum fuck nowhere.
[–]JosephND 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 3時間前 (1子コメント)
Having been Florida schooled at a catholic place, I can tell you we never did any religious field trips. We went to cape canaveral for a tour on all things space exploration .. And an 8th grade trip to seaworld. Apart from that it was some state parks and stuff.
[–]SilverBallsOnMyChest 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
You forgot Alabama.
[–]Atheistalexsmithfanning 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 2時間前 (1子コメント)
My school district in Kansas has been really good about the whole religion thing. Don't hate on all of them!
[–]powercow 10ポイント11ポイント12ポイント 5時間前 (0子コメント)
their side likes the hassle.
In fact this will probably encourage some that werent thinking of it. Just so they can get the local news bite about how evil liberals are and how they are beign mean to the chill'n for political reasons.
I mean yall do know that a lot of right wingers do pass those laws knowing full well they will be thrown out. They dont even try to twist it the best they can to make it .. maybe pass the courts. nah they put a giant kick me scotus sign on their ass and wait for that big boot with glee. Its advertising for them.. 'look at me i fight for christian causes".. its not as news worthy when you dont try to break the law and bring your class on a field trip promoting a religion. generally the media stays away from that."breaking teacher teaches his kids how he is supposed to and didnt break any laws doing it".. doesnt get many clicks.
[–]SkepticHarvardCock 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
its also important that they be notified of this, because should they ignore the memo and plan a field trip anyway, they cant claim they didn't know.
[–]hereisoblivion 320ポイント321ポイント322ポイント 8時間前 (123子コメント)
So there is a law that prohibits school trips to locations built for religious purposes? How far does that extend? Hopefully I don't come across being snarky, this really is a sincere question.
Would the law being discussed here also prevent a trip to an ancient religious structure? Let's say...... a Greek mythological foundation? Or would that be allowed because their ancient beliefs are no longer accepted by anyone?
I guess I'm just wondering where the official line is drawn that says what kids can go to learn from (even if totally farce,) and what they can't.
[–]blackarmchair 327ポイント328ポイント329ポイント 8時間前* (50子コメント)
I don't think that there's a law that prevents field trips to religious sites in principle. I think what the law would prevent would be using public money to fund a trip to a religious site with dubious educational value.
For example, if a school had a world religions class and scheduled several field trips to a synagogue, a mosque, a church, etc. this may be a valid method of teaching students about world religions. But if a school just decides to go to the ark experience outside of any valid educational context then they've crossed a line.
It seems like a pretty subtle distinction and I'm sure there will be those who abuse it.
[–]Agnostic Atheistkent_eh 120ポイント121ポイント122ポイント 7時間前 (27子コメント)
I think what the law would prevent would be using public money to fund a trip to a religious site with dubious educational value.
Also a place designed for the specific purpose of proslytizing.
[–]axslayer33 17ポイント18ポイント19ポイント 7時間前 (15子コメント)
It could also be used in civics or culture classes, as examples of the cross between government funded projects and religion, the modernization of religion, or a case of absurdity vs. thrift (i.e., the difference between a one-room church and this piece of shit.)
[–]Secular Humanistmr_pleco 15ポイント16ポイント17ポイント 4時間前 (14子コメント)
It would be appropriate for juniors/seniors in highschool or college students, but the ark encounter is designed to brainwash little kids. I know a good highschool student can see through that stuff immediately, but an elementary or middle school crowd would not have that same ease of determining fantasy from reality.
[–]Makenshine 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 7時間前 (3子コメント)
I would be fine with a trip to the Vatican for a World History or cultural studies class. That place's specific purpose is to spread religion. But its roots are far more established than one guys view of a few Biblical stories.
[–]Eva-Unit-001 8ポイント9ポイント10ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)
The Vatican has historical significance this fucking ark has absolutely none besides being a monument to human ignorance.
[–]MrGestore 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 2時間前* (1子コメント)
Actually the Vatican is also incredibly remarkable for its architecture and art, besides being in Rome which is also a wonderful city to see.
[–]tootie 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 5時間前 (5子コメント)
Yeah, field trips to historic churches are presumably ok so long as they're about history. Ark Encounter is a museum and ostensibly about real history, which would make it a gray area. A court would have to rule Genesis to be mythology and not history. 50 years ago, that's be a tough sell, but I think it's nearly settled law at this point.
[–]burquedout 11ポイント12ポイント13ポイント 5時間前 (4子コメント)
Anyone teaching that genesis is history is delusional. Hell it contradicts itself numerous times and has talking snakes.
[–]the_explode_man 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 4時間前 (3子コメント)
Oh, those contradictions work themselves out! Just like sending a bear to brutally maul a bunch of children for taunting a bald guy, the Lord works in mysterious ways!
[–]MetalSeagull 19ポイント20ポイント21ポイント 5時間前 (7子コメント)
If the site is actually culturally relevant, like a ruin, burial mound, battlefield, then thats OK. There's a site near me of one of the first settlements in the state. Everything is rubble except the church. I would have no objection to that, even if the obvious importance of the church and religion to the settlers was talked about.
But a disneyfied replica presenting their religion as fact is not OK.
[–]mmarkklar 157ポイント158ポイント159ポイント 8時間前 (15子コメント)
The thing is though, the Ark Park isn't a historically significant monument. It's a roadside attraction posing as a legitimate science museum meant to "educate" people on creationism. Taking a class there would be the same as taking them to a church service.
On the other hand, a field trip to a Christian site like Vatican City would be acceptable, because it is historically significant to both the history of Christianity (which Ark Park isn't) and the history of the human civilization in general (which Ark Park definitely isn't). It's all about historical context.
[–]JulianneLesse 54ポイント55ポイント56ポイント 7時間前 (9子コメント)
I disagree, I definitely don't think human civilization would be where it is today if it wasn't for Ark Park being built
[–]BruceTheUnicorn 11ポイント12ポイント13ポイント 7時間前 (2子コメント)
Amen
[–]MyNameIsNotMud 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 7時間前 (0子コメント)
The rhyming name alone advanced us by at least 2 minutes!
[–]graphictruth 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 6時間前 (0子コメント)
Did you mean "symptomatic of where human civilization is today?"
[–]Anti-TheistCardboard_Mantis 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 6時間前 (0子コメント)
Just think of all the posts and comments that would have never been were it not for the Ark Park!
[–]BungSmuggler 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
I totally agree! You put into words exactly what I was thinking!
[–]jjeezy 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 2時間前 (1子コメント)
Who is sending their middle schools to Vatican City in the US?
[–]mmarkklar 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)
Wealthy ones, obviously. But a more local example would be the National Cathedral in Washington DC. It's an operating episcopal church, but several presidents and other government officials had funeral services there and it's also where Woodrow Wilson was buried.
[–]macleod185 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 7時間前 (0子コメント)
"The Ark Encounter" is theme park based on the imagination of for profit new agers. There is no educational value there. So yes, it's different than visiting an actual historic site.
[–]NonaJabiznez 26ポイント27ポイント28ポイント 8時間前 (6子コメント)
I don't think Greek mythology is taught anywhere in the world as being the current truth. If the context is "some people used to believe in… " then that is history. On the other hand, when the context is "this is the truth you should believe right now" then that is promoting a specific religion and is inappropriate for a public school trip.
[–]SubcommanderMarcos 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 7時間前* (5子コメント)
I don't think there being people who still believe in the mythology makes it less historical, don't think that's the issue here. I went to a private catholic school that had a secular curriculum(aside from the actual religion class) that was strictly adhered to, and we visited so many churches for the art(because architecture) and history classes that I got bored of looking at churches for a long time. No regrets though, some awesome fuckin' churches. But no religious indocrination context to those visits.
Ark thing though... Lunatic place built for lunatics, no historical or artistic value worth noting.
e: i no english good
[–]NonaJabiznez 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 7時間前 (0子コメント)
Oh, I completely agree on that. Visiting a church to learn about its architecture or its place in history would be completely acceptable as a school trip, but from what I gather the places mentioned in this article are not about teaching history or architecture or how to run a theme park, but about promoting and pushing a specific religious world view. That's why it's not ok.
[–]Secular HumanistDoritoStyle 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 5時間前 (1子コメント)
Sounds like you had a great and well balanced experience with private religious education, but it's important to note that you can't take that for granted.
[–]JamesBuffalkill 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 7時間前 (1子コメント)
hystorical
I'm not sure if you're going for historical or hysterical, but to be honest I think either works.
[–]jaymz668 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 7時間前 (3子コメント)
Would a fake history place count? This place has dinosaurs on the ark...
[–]Arkeband 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 6時間前 (2子コメント)
While idiosyncratically teaching that the Flood killed the dinosaurs...
...and also the Ark has unicorns...
[–]JerryLupus 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 7時間前 (0子コメント)
One is a historical educational visit, the other is religious propaganda.
[–]lil_suprises 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 7時間前 (2子コメント)
I was wondering the same thing. In California, every fourth grade class goes on a fieldtrip to a Mission, where there are chapels and whatnot. It's a huge part of Ca history and is definetly Christian.
[–]Feinberg 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 6時間前 (1子コメント)
They don't have threats of eternal damnation scrawled across the walls, though, and there's actual historical value to a building that pre-dates the first amendment.
[–]Secular Humanistfuzzymidget 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 8時間前 (0子コメント)
If there is historical significance then there is no issue. There is culture to learn, art to see, architecture to absorb and that sort of thing. The line is drawn when the school system uses a field trip to publicly endorse a religion, as with the Ark Encounter. It's sole purpose is to substantiate the claim that creationism is true and has literally no other significance besides being a controversial money waste.
That being said, if there was a public school that posted all the portraits of the greek gods, had breaks to pray to Jupiter, and wanted to go to Mount Olympus to prove that the greek gods were real (even today) there would be a problem with each of those things too. The school can't support the religion of any one group unless it supports them all (which is not possible).
[–]Anecdotal_Moron 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 7時間前 (0子コメント)
While there's not really a reason that I can think of to plan a visit to this park, there are a few reasons to visit some religious places. For example, my high school Latin class went to a monastery because it's really the only type of place where Latin is still in use.
[–]Makenshine 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 7時間前 (6子コメント)
Arguably, context with no clear defined line. A trip to Mecca, or to visit the Pope in the Vatican would totally be fine. Specific places or structures that have historical context would be fine, so long as it is relevant to the course content. (Cultural studies, World History, or whatever.)
That said, if someone can give a solid reason why the Ark Encounter would be relevant course content in a public school then I could be convinced that it was okay. But, as it stands now, the Ark Encounter is just the physical representation of one man's view on the Bible.
Typical, if you are getting into that much detail in one subject, you are beyond the scope of any public school course and into a college course, which no one really has a problem with a college class going to this place.
[–]I_Like_Quiet 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 5時間前 (2子コメント)
I think it would be good to show critical thinking. To show you can look at something and question what is right or wrong. To not just take what someone tells you is a fact and believe it.
I think this all thing is a farce, but plan on at least showing it to my kids. I think it's important for kids to know how old the earth is, to know that human civilisation and dinosaurs did not coexist, and, most importantly, to know that there are people that believe the opposite and that they are actively trying to teach everyone that they are right.
Tldr. It's important to know 2+2=4, it's equally important to know if people are trying to get you to believe that 2+2=1000
[–]bootes64 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 6時間前 (2子コメント)
The only plausible reason I could see to visit the ark would be from a construction point. Perhaps a wood working or engineering concept?
[–]Makenshine 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 6時間前 (1子コメント)
Maybe, but from what I hear, he is failing pretty hard from an engineering standpoint.
[–]Zarokima 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 7時間前 (0子コメント)
You could probably justify an ancient temple trip as it being a historically significant site. It would also help that nobody believes that religion anymore, and it's all presented as mythology. For someone to lodge a credible complaint about that they would have to actually believe it and argue that they're being discriminated against by having their beliefs dismissed as fairy tales. You probably could stir up some trouble about it if you really wanted to, but it's not going to happen because nobody cares.
Even a structure for a modern religion can be justified in the right context, like going to St. Peter's Basilica for the historical and artistic significance of it, provided they don't try to convert you.
The ark encounter has no significance outside of religious proselytizing.
[–]dhmtb 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 6時間前 (0子コメント)
The difference is that the ark is religious propaganda, not a historic site
[–]CrispyLiberal 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 5時間前 (0子コメント)
There's no specific law. The Constitution's establishment clause prohibits the government from taking action that could be seen as establishing a national religion. This prohibition extends to public schools.
[–]AtheistjustaFluffypanda 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
That's a good question. I'd imagine trips to places with actual historical and educational value would be allowed, unlike Ark Encounter which is run by a legion of Young Earth Creationists pushing their agenda.
[–]Barrister_The_Bold 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 7時間前 (0子コメント)
Alright, let me explain it. Establishment clause of US means that the government may not establish a religion - that means in actuality or in effect. This means the US government is neutral. However, on the other hand the people have the absolute right to freedom of religion as well as freedom from religion - you have the absolute right to believe whatever you want and not be subjected to others views - thus religious symbols and teachings are not necessarily forbidden, they just have to follow certain guidelines that don't establish religion by the government. For example, the government establishes a religion if it only allows a Christian nativity scene and not other holidays to be represented at the court house - the ten commandments may be taught in school but only as an early form of a legal system, not as a religious fact - government may not send public money to subsidize and fund private schools (religious usually), however they can give the people money for school and if they choose to spend that at a religious school it's their choice, the government has established no religion, they've just subsidized education.
[–]zugi 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 6時間前* (0子コメント)
Really the Constitutional principle based on the non-establishment clause is that the government can't favor or give clear appearance of favoring any one religion over another religion or over lack of religion. How that gets interpreted is up to the courts. It seems pretty clear that a visit to the Ark Encounter is a proselytizing trip favoring a Bible-based religious view, while a trip to some ancient religious temple is historic in nature.
That said, if 1000 years from now some school organizes a trip to the ruins of the Ark Encounter to teach students about the religious beliefs of primitive Americans in the early 21st century, that would probably be seen as Constitutionally permissible.
[–]un_theist 180ポイント181ポイント182ポイント 9時間前 (57子コメント)
Cue the whining about "See how persecuted we are?" in 3...2...1...
[–]seb_fisher 48ポイント49ポイント50ポイント 7時間前 (52子コメント)
"We're not allowed to indoctrinate children with our specific beliefs in state-funded schools! This is just like the Nazi treatment of Jews in WW2!"
[–]ThePlagueLives 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 6時間前 (3子コメント)
Well, you see, we are being persecuted. Soon enough we'll be fenced in for worshipping and not allowed to tell others about our Lord and Savior!
....is what a lot of people I know will say. I can't stand it. It makes me hate the fact that I grew up like that. I still stand by my faith, but when I hit 18 I realized how entitled and blind a lot of Christians are.
[–]Flat_prior 87ポイント88ポイント89ポイント 7時間前 (17子コメント)
You can mathematically and empirically show this biogeographic hypothesis (a singular point source of all genetic diversity, "Noah's Ark") is false.
Day by day, I am more convinced that religion is just social malware.
[–]SubcommanderMarcos 23ポイント24ポイント25ポイント 7時間前 (8子コメント)
And also it's impossible to build the boat
[–]xmindallas 23ポイント24ポイント25ポイント 7時間前 (4子コメント)
No kidding. I've never even seen a tape measure marked in cubits.
[–]AgnosticJhollenbiz0 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 5時間前 (0子コメント)
I think they used their forearms. It's roughly 18 inches.
[–]belortik 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 5時間前 (2子コメント)
I mean you can make one pretty quickly. Just get some rope and tie knots at intervals equal to the length of your fore arm.
[–]xmindallas 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 4時間前 (1子コメント)
But then a different guy will make the one used on the other side of the ark. No way the two sides will meet at the end. All those fractions of a cubit add up.
[–]lalondtm [スコア非表示] 21分前 (0子コメント)
What was the stat? It took millions of dollars, modern day technology and machinery, hundreds of people, etc. All of which, to build the exact same thing that was supposedly built by a 600 year old man and a couple of his kids a couple thousand years ago? Sure.
[–]thisguynamedjoe 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)
Social malware is a wonderful phrase. I love it.
[–]wbedwards 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
I like the social malware analogy... complete with deceptive confirmation prompts and everything. "Are you sure you don't not want to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior?"
[–]purple_sage2 49ポイント50ポイント51ポイント 8時間前 (40子コメント)
I'm an atheist but I would like to see the thing just to see it.
[–]MiaowaraShiro 102ポイント103ポイント104ポイント 7時間前 (13子コメント)
I'm rather morbidly curious about it, but not enough to give Ken Ham any money.
[–]justmysubs 26ポイント27ポイント28ポイント 7時間前* (4子コメント)
Too late. We already gave him lots of money via tax breaks.
EDIT: typo
[–]Darkrhoad 14ポイント15ポイント16ポイント 7時間前 (1子コメント)
Rum Ham has a better ROI
[–]Ball-Blam-Burglerber 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 6時間前 (0子コメント)
Sounds delicious!
[–]Bengalman753 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 2時間前 (1子コメント)
Only if you are a Kentuckian.
[–]Bael_Take_The_Wheel 14ポイント15ポイント16ポイント 7時間前 (5子コメント)
Patheos and Friendly Atheist both have a lot of video and pictures of the ark experience. Granted, it's not the same thing as going in person but it gives you a pretty good look at the exhibits contained within (plus Ken Ham doesn't get any more money).
[–]Atheistwegener1880 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 5時間前 (2子コメント)
Some things are just better not in person... Like most volcanic eruptions... Or insufferable religious fundies...
[–]Bael_Take_The_Wheel 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 5時間前 (1子コメント)
I don't like being around extremely religious people. I'm always afraid they are going to find out I'm atheist and then they'll go mob rules and try to murder me; or worse, try to convert me.
[–]Agnostic Atheistkent_eh 13ポイント14ポイント15ポイント 7時間前 (2子コメント)
Please resist the tempataion to give Ken Ham your money.
He'll only use it for something reckless.
I didn't think it was a big deal going to see this thing. I looked the guy up and prefer not to give him any money. It's too bad, thing looks pretty cool.
[–]purple_sage2 [スコア非表示] 43分前 (0子コメント)
Oh I won't go there.
[–]Secular Humanist7oby 8ポイント9ポイント10ポイント 6時間前 (5子コメント)
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2016/07/07/scenes-from-ark-encounters-opening-day-inside-the-ark/
saved you the time and money
[–]devianaut 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 5時間前 (3子コメント)
when you look at it all... it's just astounding that people actually think this was all real. all that time, energy, and skill sets could have been used to create something amazing. instead it's just confirming world views that have long ago been questioned and debunked.
[–]mmaaffee 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 5時間前 (1子コメント)
It's also an economic development project for a small town in rural kentucky (where i live). If it bring in visitors to this small town that desperately needs some development I'll be very happy
[–]seb_fisher 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
It's like a circus for mental gymnastics and you get to be the athlete!
[–]Atanar 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 7時間前 (1子コメント)
Just watch a video of a guy visiting, there will be dozens. Don't give Ken Ham any money.
[–]francisguarderas 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 7時間前 (1子コメント)
I like the logo, it has waves and a chicken.
[–]DontFuckWithDuckie 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 6時間前 (0子コメント)
I'm thinking that's a dove
[–]vanceco 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 7時間前 (18子コメント)
What if it was included as part of a course in comparative theology, and not taught as a truth, but as a manifestation of the myth that many people hang onto..?
[–]Agnostic Atheistkent_eh 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 7時間前* (3子コメント)
If that was the curriculum goal of the visit, then it would probably pass the constitutional test.
However, if that was the stated goal of the visit, I suspect AIG woldn't let them in. They have tossed sceptics out of the "creation museum" in the past.
[–]bootes64 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 6時間前 (1子コメント)
They have tossed sceptics out of the "creation museum" in the past.
You are also not allowed to work there unless you agree to the principles of his version of xtianity.
[–]radical0rabbit 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
Is it really that much more work to type "Christianity" versus "xtianity"?
[–]Secular HumanistastroNerf 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 6時間前 (9子コメント)
The 7 and 8 year-olds and their public school teachers that Ken Ham is targeting are not studying comparative theology.
[–]Atheistedhere 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 6時間前 (2子コメント)
The Ark Encounter itself teaches bible stories as truth.
[–]MrTittyFingers 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 6時間前 (5子コメント)
On the flip side, that's a big boat, and I like big boats. Boats are cool
[–]Scorched_Oatmeal 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 4時間前 (3子コメント)
But could it float?
[–]hostile65 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 5時間前* (5子コメント)
I am just pissed they didn't bring down a few hundred Amish to build this sucker completely out of wood.
I mean really, look at all those damn modern technologies they are using... such a rip off...
Also, I am glad FFRF reminded schools not to bring students there... no one should...
[–]Treereme 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 4時間前 (1子コメント)
The thing is, it's just not possible to build one of the scale they say it was out of only wood. They had to use modern steel beams, just like Noah did! Oh wait...
[–]cassby916 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 2時間前 (2子コメント)
Actually it was headed up by the Troyer group, which is Amish.
[–]hostile65 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 2時間前* (1子コメント)
Actually it was headed up by the Troyer group, which is Amish
They hire Amish people. The Troyers are Mennonites, so not exactly the same.
[–]beverboy 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 5時間前 (1子コメント)
Why is there a crane in the pic? I didn't know then had cranes back then, I thought Noah built the ark with his hands.
[–]Ex-TheistFlexGunship 20ポイント21ポイント22ポイント 6時間前 (4子コメント)
This is kind of a shame... there's genuine information here and it's worth learning about. You can certainly visit this attraction and not get any religious instruction. If anything, Ken Ham has built the single greatest monument to the absurdity of religion.
"See kids, this is what happens when you go crazy."
[–]differentimage 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 1時間前 (1子コメント)
I have zero faith it would be approached that way by teachers. It's better for it to have never existed than to stand as a monument to religious absurdity.
[–]swampfish [スコア非表示] 45分前 (0子コメント)
I also have zero faith.
[–]Joba_Fett 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 6時間前 (2子コメント)
Not a teacher, but what if you took the kids there to point out scientific inaccuracies? Would that be allowed?
[–]Lil_Psychobuddy 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 5時間前 (1子コメント)
You'd be kicked out, and you still practicing religious favoritism, just against Christianity.
[–]underwaterpizza 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)
In what fucking world did Noah have access to a 20th century crane?
Oh, yeah, the one where facts don't matter and all the answers are made up.
[–]joosier 14ポイント15ポイント16ポイント 8時間前 (7子コメント)
If they bill it as a Study in the effects of psychological disorders and the lack of critical thinking and logic then they may be able to pull it off.
[–]jverity 15ポイント16ポイント17ポイント 8時間前 (6子コメント)
Or a world religions class. There was one in my high school.
[–]justmysubs 13ポイント14ポイント15ポイント 7時間前 (4子コメント)
Seeing a boat that isn't a boat and wouldn't float if it was a boat is worthy of note?
[–]ZX_OLO 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 7時間前 (0子コメント)
Ummmmm, maybe?
[–]Nukemarine 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 8時間前* (3子コメント)
Unfortunately some school districts will go "Hey, a school trip there sounds good. Thanks for the idea FFRF"
[–]Atanar 8ポイント9ポイント10ポイント 7時間前 (0子コメント)
I'm pretty sure there is no such case of a school who really want's to go there but has not yet heard of it. I'm sure Ken Ham sends out his advertisement.
[–]CrispyLiberal 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 5時間前 (1子コメント)
Then they get sued
[–]pembroke529 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
FFRF doing god's work.
[–]DudeistCrabjock 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
I'm seeing a lot of people saying "who cares" and the like.
Well, a minority do. You may find this trivial, but the roots run deep.
I went to school in a very rural town in the 90s. I may have actually been the only atheist there. I had to go on trips to these types of places many times as a child. I also did the God thing in class. I learned nothing about evolution. Ect ect ect.
I never complained because I had no idea how to. Back sass a teacher? Yeah right. Get vocal with the other students? Sure, I'd love to get my ass beat.
It's so hilarious for a majority of people to go "meeh, stop your whining, we can't do nothing without you hating on it meeeh", when that is seriously all you fucking do, and also want to pull the public in on it.
It's always your thing. You get to be vocal, you get to go on your trips. You are the majority (regardless of what God's Not Dead wants you to believe)
Like, how fucking insane can you be? To look at a minority of people who are being pushed aside for their lack of belief, and call them whiners for feeling polarized not only by other students, but also by the teachers?
Of course it ain't a big deal to you because it does nothing to you.
Yeah, take kids here and let them pick up a book about the war on gays. Guaranteed you have at least one student who is already struggling with his/her sexuality, and what they need to hear is your gibberish that IS NOT TRUE telling them that what they're doing means eternal damnation.
These are the same people who stick fucking pamphlets in your door and go "whaaaa, why can't atheists just shu uhh". Seriously, I have a stack of Mormon, Jehovah's witness, and Baptist pamphlets. Not one pamphlet about atheism has been crammed into my life (aka my car window)
Again, this is a big deal because of what it connects to. If you think they should be allowed to take kids to these places, it being a public school, then you're obviously a believer, and self interest will trump equality no matter what anyone says.
[–]twitchosx 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 6時間前 (18子コメント)
Nobody gives a shit about your stupid fake ark. All that money used making it could have gone to real stuff
[–]Negative_Clank 11ポイント12ポイント13ポイント 8時間前 (13子コメント)
Well, didn't the taxpayers already fork over millions for the damn thing? Might as well corrupt the malleable minds of the young at this point. Religion has doomed the whole fucking country
[–]ThisisALF 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 7時間前 (7子コメント)
I was wondering about tax payer money. I'm sure they have gotten some; either tax credit or straight funds. But what I don't understand is how they can have prospective employees take a religious test, along with typical drug/background, before being allowed to work on site. THAT is a conflict in my book...
[–]Negative_Clank 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 7時間前 (4子コメント)
Yeah, and that was taken to court. Fucked up beyond belief. I can't believe how in the US, the church and state separation can be 'interpreted' differently by different judges.
[–]AtheisthangoverDOTTED 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 7時間前 (1子コメント)
Because judges have different views on judicial matters. It is a legitimate thing for many.
However, many times a judge's personal views seep in and are mistaken for legal views.
[–]AtheistIswitt 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 7時間前 (0子コメント)
I'm sure they have gotten some; either tax credit or straight funds.
They have gotten about $18 million in tax incentives and ~$60 million in bonds (see this for more details).
[–]graphictruth 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 6時間前 (4子コメント)
What if it's in support of a class on comparative religion and critical thinking? :}
[–]SatanistDrexelhand 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 6時間前 (1子コメント)
i remember my comparative religion and critical thinking class in elementary school. so much fun.
[–]AgnosticZilveari 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 5時間前 (1子コメント)
I don't think they needed to be so heavy-handed with the 'myths' stuff. The letter only needs to reference the fact that this would be illegal under the establishment clause.
Sections of that letter seemed to be antagonizing.
[–]grainjuice 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 5時間前 (0子コメント)
don't you have to say you're a christian to work at the Ark? how's that legal?
[–]mckulty 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 5時間前 (2子コメント)
Well, if they fill it with animals and make it float, I'd make an exception.
[–]elder65 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 4時間前 (1子コメント)
Only if they fill it with pairs of every species on earth - animal, fowl, and insect. Then make it float for 40 days through a couple of thunderstorms.
[–]Secular Humanistlandsharkxx 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
It's sad that they had to remind 1,000 public school districts.
[–]DoingTheFrenchMistak 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
OK I'm just gonna throw this out, someone had to... Boaty McBoatface, there I feel better, hope you do too.
[–]Irreligiouscybercuzco 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
To paraphrase Star Trek: what does god need with a boat?
[–]Banana4scales 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
Be sure to donate to FFRF for all of their work. I just donated $50 right now.
[–]Agnostic AtheistAtheist_Simon_Haddad 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
I think the economics class could benefit.
[–]38thdegreecentipede 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
The bible club, a student organized club, could organize a trip on the weekend, though.
[–]JustAThrowaway1122 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 7時間前 (19子コメント)
I just found out about these guys today. Sent them an email about my county sheriff cars with in god we trust on the back of them all.
[–]lofi76 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 7時間前 (1子コメント)
Good. If this were treated like what it is, a silly story from our dark age history, then no worries showing it to children. But when grown men truly believe this horseshit about two of each animal getting aboard together...fuck, it's hard to even type that sentence. We live among delusional cavemen.
[–]PENGUIN_WITH_BAZOOKA 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
Unless it's some Biblical thunderdome shit. "Two species enter, one species leaves".
[–]gw3gon 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 6時間前 (0子コメント)
The atheist mafia strikes again!
[–]NinjaDiscoJesus 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 5時間前 (0子コメント)
the fact this has to be done is deeply disturbing
π Rendered by PID 22278 on app-297 at 2016-07-08 22:24:26.500506+00:00 running b429c4e country code: JP.
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