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[–]BernardJOrtcutt[M] [スコア非表示] stickied comment (0子コメント)

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[–]BeauFoxworth 411ポイント412ポイント  (176子コメント)

Wouldn't the alternative to determinism be a probability governed universe, not free-will? If your life is a bunch of dice rolls, I wouldn't use the phrase "free will" to describe it.

[–]Philosophyofpizza 100ポイント101ポイント  (66子コメント)

I agree. This would refute determinism if anything, not prove free will.

[–]flyingsaucerinvasion 56ポイント57ポイント  (59子コメント)

I still don't know what people even mean when they talk about free will. Choices that aren't determined by some underlying factor? Well then were do they come from? If they are coming from randomness of particles then what is special about that?

[–]TurboSchnauzer 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

Bingo. I think 90% of the confusion about free will comes from the fact that we're not even sure what we mean by the term. Define it clearly, and a lot of the argument resolves itself automatically.

[–]elimisteve 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

The same can be said with almost all Philosophy, it seems to me.

[–]Bbxf3 10ポイント11ポイント  (11子コメント)

I still don't know what people even mean when they talk about free will. Choices that aren't determined by some underlying factor? Well then were do they come from?

This is really very simple to explain.

Free will absolutely does not mean that choices are not determined by some underlying factor. The whole point is that they are determined, by the will of the individual.

They are not, though, as OP explains, determined by material reality, because material reality is not deterministic.

What am I implying? That the will of an individual could be something immaterial, yet real.

OP's point is that if material reality were deterministic, there would be no room for an immaterial thing to influence material reality, because the behavior of material reality would be explained entirely by material reality.

It is not, so it is possible that something immaterial might influence material reality. Not certain, but possible.

[–]flyingsaucerinvasion 11ポイント12ポイント  (5子コメント)

But a choice must be based on something, or it is random. And if it is based on something then it is not free. Doesn't matter if we're talking about a soul or something purely material. What the heck would a non-random choice based on nothing look like?????

[–]philmethod[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Random from a third party's perspective.

Free will is the implication that "we" have the freedom to make private choices in our lives as things happen that no one could predict a priori before we make them. Or at least not a priori an arbitrary length of time in the past.

Not even an actor that possessed infinite computing power and all the information in the universe.

The point being the uncertainty principle tells us the universe fundamentally contains insufficient information to determine its future.

[–]dogedickguy 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

So basically free will is another thing where we really really wanna be center of the universe and "special" even tho actually were just emergent results of the laws of physics...

Seriously, it makes no logical sense...and it's only made less and less as we've understood the world better. There's a lot of decent plausible explanations of how what we perceive as free will works, which a lot of discussion on it is really just comparison of the reasonability of either. But the term itself and the core idea of what it is literally makes no sense. There needs to be some mechanism of action, some algorithm essentially that drives "free" will of course by definition then it isn't free anymore I guess.. I mean seriously I actually don't understand how others see it any other way. At some level there always has a be a set of rules followed. Even if free will is some metaphysical undetectable force it still has to have some mechanism in that realm. It doesn't need to be deterministic but it does need to have some kind of mechanism or nothing is happening at all, by definition.

[–]philmethod[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

it's only made less and less as we've understood the world better.

No, in the 19th century the case for determinism was much stronger than today.

There needs to be some mechanism of action, some algorithm essentially that drives "free" will of course by definition then it isn't free anymore I guess

Than is an article of faith for determinists. That every occurrence has an underlying mechanism that determines its actions. It's a fallacy which isn't supported by modern science especially QM. Radioactive decay is random. This is an empirically observed fact. Yet determinists ignore that while dogmatically and baselessly asserting that anyone who supports free will is "unscientific."

[–]LtCol 22ポイント23ポイント  (24子コメント)

They don't understand either; try questioning them by asking what they think they mean by free will and how it's possible and you'd find you're talking to someone who hasn't given it much thought.

Edit: Most of the time they'll respond with satire and sarcasm like the guy below. And sarcasm isn't a valid argument/rebuttal.

[–]OVdose 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

It wasn't intended to be a rebuttal. Your statement was basically that anyone who believes in free will just hasn't given it enough thought. That's not true for everyone.

[–]vaharan 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

I don't understand that too. For me the question of free will was never about randomness. Free will is basically a mind-body problem, dualism vs monism.

If I throw a coin I get either heads or tails randomly. But the coin does not have free will.

[–]philmethod[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Determinism negates free will.

Randomness is consistent with, but does not imply, freewill.

[–]kescusay 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not so. Neither randomness nor determinism is compatible with libertarian free will, because the concept is not well-defined. It boils down to belief that our decisions are rooted in some kind of "will," usually involving an immaterial component for which there's no evidence. And even if true, an immaterial component only moves the problem back a step, because either the decisions arising from it are causal in nature, or random, and neither option can be described as what libertarian free will is.

[–]BroadShoulderedBeast 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Randomness is just as much not free will as determinism is not free will. What's the difference, from the perspective of the actor or an observer in the context of the actor "making" a choice, between a decision being determined by definable cause out of the control of the actor and a decision being decided by a random cause out of the control of the actor?

[–]0ed 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'd take a stab at a definition of free will. I'd personally think that free will in fundamentally linked to the concept of a soul, of a complete being that's separate from the laws of the universe that's able to make its own decisions completely free of the influences of whatever happens in this world.

That's why I'd maintain that free will doesn't exist. If your choices are affected by probability, or chaos theory, or whatever you call it - they're not free at all. They're still part of a computer simulation, it's just a simulation that you don't fully understand. The argument between determinism and the OP is not one of whether we have free will. It's just an argument of whether or not we understand the rules by which humans make decisions within what is essentially a simulation that follows certain rules. And as long as everything obeys those rules, including us, then we don't have free will, regardless of whether or not we understand those rules.

[–]mootmeep 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

A SOUL! For fucks sake this rebuttal is annoying. For the previous 99% of human history humans have imagined that we have souls. If you have a soul - that's where free will comes from. If you don't believe in a soul, YES, the idea of free will stops making sense. Hence the point we're all trying to get across!

[–]Bbxf3 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

He doesn't say it proves free will, he only says that science, by not supporting determinism, does not disprove free will.

[–]Jamjijangjong 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

The things is, when the universe ends it will have turned out the same way no matter what. Nothing could change angything that happened in it.

[–]TThor 45ポイント46ポイント  (13子コメント)

This debate gets really old; It always tends to come down to people claiming probabilities or randomness equate to free will. It is a god of the gaps fallacy; people aren't looking for what is likely, but looking for holes where they can insert their preconceived notions, that being that human beings are uniquely independent agents. And there is always some pseudoscience mixed in to obfuscate the discussion, despite never changing the root problems of the premise.

I would enjoy this discussion so much more if there were actually some new unique arguments given, even if I didn't agree with them they would likely be interesting. But it seems to always be the same assertions every time..

[–]TheShadowKick 6ポイント7ポイント  (8子コメント)

I'd argue it does let us conclude that current science doesn't force us to toss out free will, but this is not an argument in favor of free will either.

[–]TThor 7ポイント8ポイント  (5子コメント)

That is the best argument that can currently be made in defense of free will; at worst it has no place in our understanding of science, at best it has nothing to support nor deny it.

[–]TheShadowKick 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Like I said, there isn't really a scientific argument in favor of free will. Our current understanding of science just doesn't know one way or the other.

[–]xazaccazax 22ポイント23ポイント  (9子コメント)

That's what I would think as well. This point was also made by philosophy professor David Sosa in a scene from the movie Waking Life (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hXbxeIYcZ4).

[–]foxsix 9ポイント10ポイント  (8子コメント)

This is what I thought of right away once I realized where OP's argument was going.

It's still an interesting distinction though. A deterministic world means everything is already laid out and in theory everything that ever happens could be predicted. In a probabilistic world this isn't the case - nobody could predict everything that will happen, even if you were omniscient in regards to the present state of the world. However this distinction doesn't speak to the illusion of free will.

Sosa kind of loses me at the end - why does it "feel" better to be a gear than something driven by chaotic forces? And "free will" isn't necessarily a problem any more than an apparent lack of God is a problem - either it exists or it doesn't. The universe can still make sense even if humans lack free will.

[–]Voje 7ポイント8ポイント  (7子コメント)

I think the point is how problematic the lack of free will, or the lack of a God is existentially. These two traits have been a big part of human spirituality throughout ages, and is an inherent part of what many people define as human, and because of that their appearent lack will subtly drive many people to nihilism.

[–]cycle_phobia 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I agree, nihilism sounds like a problem to some people, but there is also something else, like I think Sosa enjoys determinism more because it provides a sense of confidence in the future/past, because this way you at least can continue drawing the map of things/reactions/events, i.e. acting as an observer makes sense, but if everything is chaotic there is no sense of being a consciousness of it. In a deterministic model you can at least assume that "the meaning of these actions is in the actions themselves", with a chaotic model there is neither meaning or law. Let's compare it to a game: you enjoy playing because there are some rules, you can predict the end of it, you can explore its beginning, but if game has no rules, if its beginning and end are purely chaotic, it's not worth playing. What's the use of playing a game with no rules?

[–]hondolor 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I don't see why we should conclude that our actions are random rather than freely decided

In a way, the laws of physics say my actions are undetermined from the starting condition: these laws don't somehow prescribe that my actions must happen at random, which is a stronger, completely unproven hypothesis.

[–]Tryn2GoSSJ 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

You took the words out of my mouth. Chaos is not choice. You can say from a physical point of view, that nothing can truly be determined (quantum tunneling etc), but how can this prove free will? We may choose to act in a certain way, but does that choice not spawn from other forces that have acted on us? Some of those forces will have occurred completely by chance, some caused as a follow on from other forces, but all directly affect our actions, therefore the choice was not entirely ours.

[–]ansius 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree, determinism and free will are not the opposite sides of a single issue. One can have a lack of determinism in addition to a lack in free will.

[–]SadisticMetal 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly, if we define free-will as the human ability to act on ones own discretion, this notion of probability only obfuscates the doctrine, lending it even less credibility than what little it had before these scientific findings were made known.

[–]Vleeschhouwer 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly, it sounds like OP is making a case for true randomness instead of free will.

[–]iamthehtown 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

But are probability governed dice throws triggered by signals or volition?

[–]Woioto 68ポイント69ポイント  (72子コメント)

Your post seems to imply that free will is randomness. Care to elaborate on why that's the case?

While you're correct in saying that "true determinism" is destroyed by randomness, I don't see how that ipso facto proves free will.

[–]philmethod[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (62子コメント)

Let us assume that I have free will. This assumes I have the power to act in a number of different ways. If I truly have this freedom then a third party will not be able to predict my actions.

If a third party could know everything I will do in the future then my free will is an illusion.

Unpredictability is randomness. Therefore randomness is a third party's observation of an agents subjective free will.

The question is do "we" influence the way wave functions collapse in any way? If "we" have free control over our bodies and have some causal influence over our behaviour, then wave function collapse must be influenced by consciousness in some way.

Wave function collapse being influenced by consciousness does not break any physical laws and although it can't be proved it can't be disproved either.

[–]ultronthedestroyer 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

This is a form of fallacious reasoning called Affirming the Consequent.

You argue that if you have free will, then third parties cannot predict your actions. But this does not imply that if third parties cannot predict your actions due, for example, to quantum fluctuations which inhibit a deterministic predictor, that you therefore have free will.

[–]-Bulwark- 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly. This analogy came to mind:

If I am a rectangle, and rectangles have 4 sides, then I must be a square, since squares have 4 sides.

Well... the problem is that squares also must meet the additional requirement of sides being equal length.

Free will does require that you can't predict a person's behavior, but meeting that one, single requirement doesn't fulfill the other requirements.

[–]Woioto 53ポイント54ポイント  (21子コメント)

So by that definition of randomness, electrons have free will.

I think at that point the definition is so broad as to become meaningless.

Not even gonna touch the "we control the wave function collapse" argument, as it's based on less than nothing.

[–]tru1919 19ポイント20ポイント  (6子コメント)

Your train of thought broke here. You start by saying wave form collapse is random. They you say we can influence wave form collapse....

The more likely explanation of free will is that it is only an illusion created by our brains because of incomplete information and the incredible complexities involved. Maybe it's not "free will" but rather "inability to predict what happens next until it happens" so when you do something random, even you were not expecting it and attribute it to your free will. This begs the question, "if everything is predetermined, then why do we observe at all?" And I argue that we observe because we must; simply, a complex information system like our brain must actually observe the functions occurring - it's in fact a natural law: a system designed to see, and feel, react and process, will in fact see, feel, react and process from its perspective.

[–]philmethod[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

A truly subjective free will will be interpreted by a third party observer as behaviour with a degree of randomness. The possibility I would propose is that "you" are the wavefunction you can influence the collapse of and and that which is not you collapse seemingly at random from your perspective.

Ofcourse while free will would be observed by a third party as randomness, randomness does not necessarily imply free will.

I don't think your explanation is more likely, nor do I think it less likely. Ultimately there is an element of speculation about free will and consciousness that is a step into the unknown.

But I will say this, I've heard this "free will emerging from input output information systems" argument before and I will assert there is nothing about the physical human condition that demands a subjective experience. You could have information sensor information storage and affectors without any subjective experience.

The only proof that humans have subjective experience is that we are humans and we have subjective experiences.

[–]amras0000 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think you're confusing /u/tru1919's arumgnt here. It's not that free will is some natural law is emerging from i/o. It's that our particular branch of neural evolution has created a black box of decision making. Whether the decisions are deterministic or based on wave function collapse is meaningless.

We throw input into the black box and retrieve some reaction to the stimuli. And though we perceive our 'self' to be this i/o system, we have little to no understanding of its internal workings. Our 'self' demands we label and disect what we can to better understand the world, while simultaneously hiding itself from introverted investigation. So we try to reconcile this conflict by slapping a term of 'free will' on the box and moving on with our lives.

So yes, by the argument any boring old android, self driving car, or tic tac toe algorithm could be claimed to possess 'free will' inasmuch as the term is merely a black box label and not some complex explained process of its own.

[–]tru1919 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I disagree with your interpretation of my argument. I do believe, strongly, that an input output machine - made of metal and silicone or what have you - with the general characteristics of our brain will be conscious and will also be susceptible to the free will illusion.

[–]koalaurine 11ポイント12ポイント  (12子コメント)

"Although it can't be proved it can't be disproved either" is not a reason for assuming "it" as though it were proved: that's called Faith.

[–]blippyz 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

wave function collapse must be influenced by consciousness in some way

How do you choose how the wave function collapses? When I measure the particle's position, can I choose "I want to find that it is at the top left of the orbital" and then force that to happen? (I know that's not a perfect example, but you get what I'm saying).

Otherwise, if I have no control whatsoever over the outcome and the outcome is due to randomness, then I don't understand how that implies free will. It would seem that you may have the option to choose what you want to happen, but that your choice has absolutely no bearing on the outside world so you're basically just "living in your head" but without the ability to have your decisions actually affect anything.

[–]FlamingNipplesOfFire 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

>how do you choose how the wave function collapses?

By channelling your spiral energy

[–]BertVos 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

You don't choose how the wave function collapses; wave function collapse is basically put into quantum theory 'by hand' as a, rather ad hoc, transition between wave dynamics and classical (non-quantum) point-like particle behavior. For example, in a double slit experiment, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment , the wavelike interference pattern tells you the probability that a particle will hit the screen at a certain point (the probability is proportional to the squared amplitude of the wave at that point). It seems that a full understanding of this procecc should involve a description of both the particle and measurement apparatus.

Point is, however, that we do not choose to measure a particle somewhere but that the wavefunction tells us the probability of measuring the particle to be in a certain position (or to have a certain momentum or any other observable). This probability, however, is mathematically determined by the Schrödinger equation so that this leaves no room for free will in the sense of consciously altering the possible outcomes of the time evolution of the current state of our universe. A famous physicist Eugene Wigner even devised a test to see if consciousness was involved in wave function collapse (as did many other physicists) but they could not find any results. You can read more about it here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann%E2%80%93Wigner_interpretation#Objections_to_the_interpretation

Or in the brilliant book "How the hippies saved physics", which is about a group op Berkeley physicists who tried all sorts of things to do with quantum mechanics and parapsychology.

[–]Mito_Bluebird 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think of consciousness as an emergent property of recursive self-mapping systems of a high enough order or something like that. What do you mean when you say consciousness?

[–]eAtheist 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

The Wave function of a particle doesn't collapse as a result of being observed by consciousness. It collapses as a result of coming into contact with a another particle, which has "recorded" a measurable reaction and contains information about the first particles location. Your conscious couldn't even observe it until after it interacts with another particle, for example a photon that transmits the information to your eye and hence your consciousness.

[–]FreeThinkingMan 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

You are incorrect. Your initial argument is wrong as people have pointed out already. Randomness /= the ability to do otherwise(free will).

You must have a reason to believe free will exists in the first place and there is no logical reason to think it exists in the first place. Peoples think it exists in the first place because a lot of people think it exists and we are raised to think it exists, both are not logical.

Most people are just unable to accept what logic dictates and conduct mental gymnastics as defense mechanisms because a foundational belief of their's is being proven to be illusory. Rational discourse on this subject requires intellectual honesty, which most people don't have.

[–]DevFRus 77ポイント78ポイント  (16子コメント)

Cool, so I have free will in the same way as an electron has free will? Not sure if that is the kind of free will that most philosophers are looking for.

[–]DadTheTerror 14ポイント15ポイント  (2子コメント)

That there are gaps in our understanding of the nature of reality is not conclusive proof that the universe-and our thinking-are not deterministic. It does give room for free will but does not prove free will. This isn't so much a case for free will as a defense that the possibility is not foreclosed.

[–]plainoldname 95ポイント96ポイント  (202子コメント)

However, free will has nothing to do with science. Either your decisions are determined (by something) or they are random (not determined by anything) and neither scenario matches what people like to consider "free" will. The will cannot be free from the process that gives rise to it.

[–]koalaurine 12ポイント13ポイント  (56子コメント)

It's an infinite regression of influences we ultimately can't "free" ourselves from entirely.

[–]BearlyBreathing 7ポイント8ポイント  (55子コメント)

But that's not really important to the question of free will. Free will simply posits that "we" are among those influences and potentially decisive among them.

[–]Dissident_is_here 9ポイント10ポイント  (45子コメント)

But you still have the problem of what causes us to think/act a particular way. We may be free from outside causes in regards to a particular action or thought, but the process leading us to that point is either a result of our genetics or some outside influence. In neither case are we really free

[–]koalaurine 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hence the "infinity" of regression.

[–]victoriaseere 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

the process leading us to that point is either a result of our genetics or some outside influence

This would be the sticking point. On what grounds do you assert this?

[–]philmethod[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (12子コメント)

Just because genetics and outside influence, influence us does not imply they solely determine our behaviour.

influence does not equal determined

[–]koalaurine 6ポイント7ポイント  (10子コメント)

What else besides those two influences"determines" our behavior, then? You imply the existence of a third dancer unknown to me.

[–]philmethod[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

The unknown is the other influence.

And as I said there fundamentally isn't enough information in the universe to determine it's future perfectly.

This is why people gravitation to determinism, they look for causes for everything, if all you look for is causes behind actions that determine them.... that's all you'll find.

[–]koalaurine 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's a bit vague and incoherent. As to your last point, I would tweak it by saying that just observing isn't a sufficiently creative and therefore satisfying activity. True, one is building a "worldview", but why not use one's findings to hack the world around oneself?

[–]eternaldoubt 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

What unknown?
Just because our cognitive hardware tells us a pretty story about how we make decisions?
Not much to stand on and there's plenty of other faulty intuitions to go around.
Why make metaphysical assumptions when they aren't necessary for a sufficient explanation (or helpful for that matter)?

This illusory mind artefact doesn't get you out of the regression problem. Adding more variables, unknown, unknowable or random doesn't change the basic dynamic of the equation (relation of inputs to output). You chose what you chose, could have done otherwise will allways remain a theoretical exercise after the fact (or reserved for parallel universes). No matter what our mind tell ourselves.

This is why people gravitation to determinism, they look for causes for everything, if all you look for is causes behind actions that determine them.... that's all you'll find.

What is free will supposed to be then, if not the ultimate cause/responsibility of an agent for its actions? Cause is what its all about.*
Proven determinism just would make things simpler and give the whole libertarian free will folk a good kick and probably shut them up for good. Still plenty disagreement left though.

 

*willfully disregarding the finer points and word games of compatibilism and so on

[–]Bottled_Cat_Farts 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

We dont control randomness either.

[–]BearlyBreathing 1ポイント2ポイント  (23子コメント)

Okay, what is the problem, exactly?

All that is required for me to have free will is that I am able to make choices which are not strictly determined by the immediate state of things. It doesn't matter how I got there. What matters is whether or not I am free to choose where I go next. Yes, that choice happens within the context of the present, but, so what?

I guess I'm just not sure what you mean when you talk about being "really free" or why I should care about any notion of freedom that has no apparent relation to my actual experiences.

[–]Dissident_is_here 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

The problem is that your seemingly free choice in the present has been set in stone by a combination of past events and your own nature. You don't perceive anything compelling you to make a particular choice, but it was still, in fact, predetermined

[–]philmethod[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

You don't have to care about anything you don't want to.

But if a third party was hypothetically capable of predicting your every action in advance, you would not be meaningfully free, responsible or in control of your own destiny.

[–]winstonsmith7 2ポイント3ポイント  (8子コメント)

There's an inherent problem with trying to analyze free will. Consider that we consider free will at all. Do we because we have free will or did we have no choice but to ask the question. But then did I have the free well to consider that I have free will but did I have to ask that again.

There's a certain "rabbit hole" involved here in trying to draw a global truth when we are factors in the determination. It's like Gödellian aspects of the situation come into play. Can we evaluate the truth or falsity of free will at all?

[–]circlesinsidesquares 11ポイント12ポイント  (13子コメント)

While I appreciate what you are saying I disagree. I think the crux of free will comes down to identity, "Who are we?" Understanding we are part of a physical system with causal relationships is very important. I believe it is the causal relationships within this physical system that create our identity and give us free will.

The big problem with OP's position, is that he attacks those who disagree with free will, without adequately supporting his position. He fails to clarify what it is that exercises free will(our identity), and spends his effort attacking determinism.

I believe in free will because I believe that who we are is something physical. Perhaps my concept of free will doesn't correspond with what is normally used in philosophical discussions.

It is my familiarity with computer science, questions like the halting problem and NP complexity, which makes me inclined to believe free will is a useful philosophical concept. Computation can't be reduced to simple equations. As humans we appreciate complex aspects of our nature and choice, even though we haven't really described mathematically what it means for an entity to have powers of intellect and ability to make decisions.

Either way, I think a lot of the free will battle is finding the right definitions, and making those definitions consistent with valid intuitive concepts we have spent years learning as part of learning how to be humans, to act and make choices.

All this talk about electrons and uncertainty isn't really progressing the discussion IMO. It should be more about computation, language, identity, emulative AI, socialization, etc.

[–]poliphilo 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

Computation can't be reduced to simple equations.

The mathematician Gödel held views similar to this; I think you will find the differences between his views and subsequent critique by others interesting.

Specifically, Gödel conceded (as pretty much everyone did after Turing) that all "computation" is equivalent, governed by the same 'formula'. Furthermore, Gödel agreed that since the brain is a physical machine, it can't have any computational powers beyond that of the idealized computer (Turing equivalence). Next he believed—as you seem to—that his own Incompleteness Theorem (or similarly, the Halting Problem) was not solvable algorithmically but is somehow solvable by humans. His resolution to this problem is that humans have immaterial minds which can solve GIE/HP type problems, above and beyond our brains, which cannot. In other words, physical/materialism is not true.

That last point seems to conflict with your position, though. But if you accept physicalism, you may be in a bind though based on the other steps of this reasoning. (In my personal view and a common one, your error is that humans can solve the HP; we can't. We're just computers, but of sufficient complexity and capability that free will is present and meaningful.)

[–]circlesinsidesquares 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I don't think humans can solve the halting problem. It just think halting problem sort of shows how there's room for lots of diversity in computation, there's not just one algorithm that can rule them all. So we can be unique individuals based on knowledge, history, personality etc. As unique individuals, no one can determine our causes without fully emulating us, thus we're in charge of ourselves.

I'm using a lot of fuzzy logic and gaps, and it may turn out that to future AI, humans are predictable simpleton automatons, but I doubt it. I think we'll still be computationally rich and complex entities even if we aren't as powerful as AI. It's sort of like how dogs are very social and fascinate us, even they couldn't possibly equal our power of language.

[–]Mito_Bluebird 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I can say I agree with both of you if I use different definitions of free will. I prefer yours though. If my actions are only determined by things making up that wich I call my self, they are as free as they can be. Such things include my state of mind, my memories and how they are processed. These are in turn determined by my past, my genes and so on. All these are physical things or their history and I am their sum.

[–]BearlyBreathing 27ポイント28ポイント  (72子コメント)

The will cannot be free from the process that gives rise to it.

Seems to beg the question. If I have free will then I give rise to processes rather than the other way around. It's neither random nor strictly determined by previous states. That's kind of the point.

[–]plainoldname 15ポイント16ポイント  (33子コメント)

If I have free will then I give rise to processes rather than the other way around.

But free will itself must come from something because if it doesn't come from anything at all then it is purely spontaneous, magical. You have to believe in magic for this to be a satisfying answer.

[–]uncannywally 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're still begging the question. You've smuggled determinism into the premise of your argument. In the spirit of charitable reading you should be trying to imagine how an anti-compatibilist libertarian argument could actually cohere, rather than just lazily dismissing the entire notion as "magic".

[–]NO_GURUS 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

The question of identity comes into play strongly here.

"If I have free will then I give rice to processes"

Who is "I" in this case, and how can you determine if it gives rise to the processes?

[–]Bottled_Cat_Farts 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

your thoughts dont control the laws of nature. Vinegar and baking soda dont react the way they do when mixed because you make it so. neither does anything else in this life.

[–]Versac 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

If I have free will then I give rise to processes rather than the other way around.

That would be an odd event - is free will some force causing chemistry to behave as it otherwise would not? I'm honestly curious how you think random v. determined isn't a straight dilemma.

[–]throwawayrelationshp 1ポイント2ポイント  (29子コメント)

What do you mean by "nor strictly determined by previous states"? Decisions are a direct result of the current state. For example, you always make decisions you deem best for you. Even if you kill yourself, you do it because you think it's best for you. You cannot change that thinking, because you base it on your experience, your memories and your current situation, all of which you cannot change. Either you do everything for a reason - and you cannot change that reason - or you make random decisions.

[–]philmethod[S] 7ポイント8ポイント  (28子コメント)

It seems that you're implying

influence = determinism

This is a fallacy.

It's true that if we had no senses we could not think anything. But that's not the same as saying that a specific set of sensory experiences gives rise toa single pre-defined action.

A single set of sensory experiences could give rise to multiple distinct actions.

Conversely multiple diverse experiences could each give rise to the same action.

Yes the past gives rise to the present. Yes the past influences and constrain present and future possibilities.

No the past does not determine a single future. Your memories influence your future behaviour, they do not determine your future behaviour.

[–]plainoldname 4ポイント5ポイント  (20子コメント)

No the past does not determine a single future.

The past is fixed, unchanging. The recent past is the future of the distant past. Each consequence of prior past states has always been a single future and no other future. It would be meaningless to say that "something else could have happened" considering that nothing different from what did happen ever happened. Likewise, I find it baseless to say that the future is undetermined when we know it will be one thing and exactly one thing as soon as it becomes the past. That seems pretty definite to me, even if we cannot predict it exactly.

[–]victoriaseere 2ポイント3ポイント  (17子コメント)

It would be meaningless to say that "something else could have happened" considering that nothing different from what did happen ever happened.

How is the entire notion of contingency meaningless?

considering that nothing different from what did happen ever happened.

If this is your entire reasoning, I suggest looking up the word "could" again.

[–]plainoldname 1ポイント2ポイント  (16子コメント)

The future is unknown because of our inability to predict it. This limitation applies even if reality is entirely deterministic. That's how various outcomes "could" result: we don't have the means to know which one it is ahead of time. But one specific outcome will definitely be the one, and no other.

[–]Paddlesons 6ポイント7ポイント  (6子コメント)

Bald assertion, all the evidence points to the contrary. As far as we understand anything in the universe the human mind is subject to the same processes that govern the behavior of everything else. Now if you want to special plead the case that the brain of "higher primates" acts in conjunction with something (consciousness) else to produce extraordinary results then I guess you could but it seems pretty sloppy if you ask me. When discussing whether or not we have free will I sometimes ask the following series of questions.

  1. Does a calculator have free will? - No
  2. Does a super computer have free will? - No
  3. Does a baby have free will? - No
  4. Does a chimpanzee have free will? - Maybe or No
  5. Do human beings have free will? Yes

[–]dksa 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Wait- how can you define that a baby doesn't have free will? Just want to understand the reasoning.

[–]Versac 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm guessing he's talking about something early enough in development that it doesn't yet have meaningful mental activity, maybe -5 to +12 months old. A lot of human neural development is still going on well after birth.

[–]dialecticalmonism 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

As the SEP points out:

'Free Will' is a philosophical term of art for a particular sort of capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives.

Without free will (or the ability to choose) there is no basis for rational action as rational action is usually defined as the ability to select between various means to achieve a desired end. But aren't you relying on selecting between various rhetorical means to make your end argument? In other words, your argument is self-debasing. Why attempt to rely on rational argumentation while at the same time claiming that rational choice doesn't exist? That is a problem, is it not?

Another thing I noticed about your post is that you apparently discount downward causation or any view of causation where higher-level processes influence lower-level processes. You seem to suggest that causation only goes from lower-level processes to higher-level processes. Many people would disagree with your view of causation in both philosophy and science.

[–]philmethod[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

I agree that consciousness can influence brain chemistry through the process of wavefunction collapse.

Furthermore you seem to be implying that the definition of a rational action is an activity determined by a rational attempt to reach a desired end.

But how do you define desired? A rational agent could still have free will through having the freedom to desire whatever he wants, with his subsequent behaviour determine by the rational attempt to achieve desires he has freely chosen.

[–]dialecticalmonism 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I completely agree with you that there is a selection between ends (or values) as well. In fact, German sociologist Max Weber expounded on these two 'ideal types' of rationality: instrumental rationality and value rationality. Instrumental rationality being the type I talked about and value rationality being the type that you've identified. I stuck with instrumental rationality because it's what most people identify with rational action, but your addition is definitely needed to be technically correct. And, technically correct is the best kind of correct!

[–]throwawayrelationshp 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nice to find my opinion in the top post. Determinism is not equal to free will and might indeed be wrong. Not believing in free will is just logical for me and not based on scientific evidence. Either I make a decision based on my current situation - that includes all my memories and experiences from the past - or my decisions are random. In the first case, my decisions are determined by the present, which I have no influence on. The second case is as terrifying as the first one for me.

[–]Make_E_U_Great_Again 8ポイント9ポイント  (4子コメント)

Exactly. This is the same conclusion I came to, thoughts have to come from somewhere. If we say they come from god, there is no free will, if they come from instincts, there is no free will, if they come from our personalities, there is no free will. If they are simply random, that still isn't free will. And as far as I know nothing truly "random" exists in our universe.

Really the entire notion of free will is senseless. The only conceivable possibility where free will would exist is if we weren't in any way affected by our surroundings or our bodies. But if that was the case, we wouldn't care enough to do anything.

Even religions don't solve this question, if we take the Eastern religions, we can reach enlightenment, at which point we are above our bodies, our environments, and our mind. We become completely indomitable, untouchable, submerged in a selfless self-full feeling of bliss. Our actions are spontaneous and inspired by creation itself. But that still isn't free will.

The only meaningful question is; can we rise above being manipulated by our instincts and our surroundings, and live according to a way that we want to? And the answer to that is yes.

[–]koalaurine 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Quantum fluctuations might be random, although I still have a lingering suspicion that causative "laws" somehow do still apply down there. As for your last paragraph, we can't entirely, nor should try to, rise above our instincts and surroundings. Rather, we should seek to fight for our principles and practicable ideals as effectively as possible given our limitations. "When life gives you lemons", acknowledge their existence and maybe consider how you might use them to further realize your principles and desires.

[–]tepedicabo 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I guess I'm a bit late to the party, but I thought I'd add that the only sort of non-random behavior that could possibly replicate the sort of randomness found in quantum mechanics is non-local behavior, which physicists generally feel is much worse than non-determinism. This is shown by Bell's Theorem.

[–]koalaurine 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly. "Damned" either way.

[–]philmethod[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (13子コメント)

If a third party can predict everything you will do in the future for all time, then you do not meaningfully have free will. Your perception of free will would be an illusion.

Science is about predicting aspects of how the world behaves, including ourselves, therefore if science were to predict the way everything can behave in its entirety (it can't and we can prove it can't) then in principle science could disprove any meaningful conception of free will.

[–]xazaccazax 8ポイント9ポイント  (5子コメント)

Demonstration of a third party's ability to make perfect predictions would certainly be one way of showing that free will doesn't exist. You're arguing that the laws of physics as we currently understand them show that such perfect predictions are not possible. I agree with that argument.

However, I don't think that demonstration of perfect third party prediction is the only way to show that free will doesn't exist on the basis of physical laws. The fact that randomness is involved in these laws and/or in determining the initial conditions of the system doesn't mean that we can influence our actions, which is what's classically (or at least popularly) understood as free will.

[–]philmethod[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

The fact that randomness is involved in these laws and/or in determining the initial conditions of the system doesn't mean that we can influence our actions, which is what's classically (or at least popularly) understood as free will.

Yes determinism would falsify free will, but the uncertainty principle has falsified determinism.

The falsification of determinism does not imply the existence of free will. However although I believe free will cannot be proven, with determinism out of the picture it cannot be falsified by science either.

[–]victoriaseere 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

If a third party can predict everything you will do in the future for all time, then you do not meaningfully have free will. Your perception of free will would be an illusion.

You don't get the converse for free: if you didn't have free will, a third party may still not be able to predict everything you do.

[–]Quintary 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

If a third party can predict everything you will do in the future for all time, then you do not meaningfully have free will.

Not necessarily, see the many arguments about free will and an omniscient God.

[–]godsheir 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Are you aware of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Broglie%E2%80%93Bohm_theory I know its probably wrong, I just wanted to point out that there are different interpretations out there.

[–]plainoldname 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Of course science can demonstrate one thing or another, but using science to disprove something that is already self-evident seems redundant to me.

[–]rudster 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

You're on the same path I think as Roger Penrose in "The Emperor's New Mind," though in his case he wanted to use Quantum-Spookiness to claim an escape from the uncertainty principal rather than free will.

The same criticisms apply though. 1: there's zero evidence that any quantum uncertainty is relevant on the scale of the neuron. 2: If there are such effects, there's no reason to believe the effect is anything other than random, and random effects don't in any way solve the original problem.

edit: "zero evidence" might be too strong. I found this paper: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140116085105.htm

[–]TomatoHere 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Also, Quantum Mechanics doesn't necessarily imply randomness. Another interpretation is non-locality. See Bell's theorem.

[–]Myto 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Also Many Worlds interpretation, which is both local and deterministic (although the determinism is not of a very useful sort).

[–]trex-eaterofcadrs 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

There are QM interpretations that accept determinism. In fact Bell himself said:

"There is a way to escape the inference of superluminal speeds and spooky action at a distance. But it involves absolute determinism in the universe, the complete absence of free will. Suppose the world is super-deterministic, with not just inanimate nature running on behind-the-scenes clockwork, but with our behavior, including our belief that we are free to choose to do one experiment rather than another, absolutely predetermined, including the ‘decision’ by the experimenter to carry out one set of measurements rather than another, the difficulty disappears. There is no need for a faster-than-light signal to tell particle A what measurement has been carried out on particle B, because the universe, including particle A, already ‘knows’ what that measurement, and its outcome, will be."

[–]LikesParsnips 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

This. A deterministic universe can be compatible with uncertainty. I doubt that OP is a physicist.

To the armchair philosophers questioning the value of a scientific argument on free will: sorry to disappoint you, but free will is also a scientific concept.

[–]Cyclonit 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

I am neither a trained physicist nor a philosopher, so please be kind when I make mistakes.

But the laws of physics also clearly tell us in the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle that the position and velocity of a particle fundamentally cannot be measured but more than this is not defined.

Both position and momentum of particles are well defined and the uncertainty priniciple does not not affect measurements of either one individually. Theoretically you can measure either one with perfect precision, just not both of them. Does this not imply, that if you were able to repeat an experiment exactly, meaning every single quantum particle does the exact same thing as in earlier runs, you could determine both momentum and position of each particle?

This was discovered by Lorenz when he ran seemingly identical computer simulations twice. Look at the graph shown here.

This showed that repeating a simulation with different input results in different results. This does not only not contradict determinism, its a perfect example of how determinism works. If he had entered the exact same data, the result would've been the same. Take a look at how computers store and restore the context of applications or how modern simulations handle this. They are not affected by the butterfly effect if they store all the data they need properly.

[–]Lyzl 10ポイント11ポイント  (9子コメント)

You are correct that quantum mechanics and complexity theory undermine any kind of known model of absolute determinism. (although, there is the question whether we simply do not have access to the realms which do determine these phenomena).

However, free will is not fundamentally opposed to determinism in this sense. Compatibilists (of whom I am a part) argue that even if the world were determined, we can still have free will. Quantum mechanics is NOT the reason, cause or source of this free will.

Consider this difference: (scene 1) I choose to cross the street when the walk signal turns on. (scene 2) professor Xavier takes control of my mind and he forces me to cross the road when the walk signal turns on.

In 1, I exercised free will, which can be defined as the (quantum mechanically informed or not) internal deliberations of my mind. In 2, my internal deliberations, however they would be affected by QM, were irrelevant in deciding my action. Professor Xavier was the total cause for my action.

'I' am made up entirely of my physical makeup and it's consequences. A decision can be called free only when this physical entity is the causal force of the action. Notice that this can include or not include QM and still functions perfectly. The difference is only that in a determined universe my actions have exactly one predetermined path - but they are made by my free will. In a QM universe, there are many possible paths I can take, but all such, as long as they are performed by the physical processes contained in my own mind, are made by my free will.

There are many further considerations, but this is the general picture and at least shows how free will can be detached from determinism.

[–]eternaldoubt 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

While I get the point, if compatibilist could just call their free will concept something else, debating libertarian notions would be sooo much simpler.

[–]Lyzl 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Perhaps. The thinking seems to go along these lines:

1) People have a faculty of choice within them that is what causes some part of their actions. Namely, conciously deliberate ones.

2) When people say they did something of their own free will, the compatibilist answers that what you are referring to is nothing other than this inner faculty.

3) Because the compatibilist believes that it is this inner faculty which causes the actions and not some other force (libertarian free will, quantam mechanics), it is this we should call free will.

4) This inner faculty just is the processes of our physical brain which are involved in concious deliberation and decision making.

Additionally, the compatibilist believes that the libertarian notion of free will is mistaken in its picture of the universe - much like we might say that an anthropomorphic view of God is a poor notion of God for the modern theologian. 'Randomness' is not what the excercise of free will feels like nor what we desire of free will - the randomness of a coin flip does not persuade us that the coin has free will. When we consider what the excercise of free will does feel like, it does seem to feel like concious, deliberative decision making, or compatibilist free will.

A libertarian notion of free will that defines itself as the concious, deliberative decision making and does not consider this to be done by the physical processes of the human brain has two problems:

1) Why do we need this if we know the brain to have the ability to make decisions - why the doubling?

2) If the brain is incapable of doing so, or if the doubling is needed, then how does the libertarian free will function and how does in interact with physical processes (the problem of Dualism)?

[–]darthbarracuda 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

However, free will is not fundamentally opposed to determinism in this sense. Compatibilists (of whom I am a part) argue that even if the world were determined, we can still have free will. Quantum mechanics is NOT the reason, cause or source of this free will.

Compatibilism allows free will, but not in the libertarian sense. Compatibilist free will is more akin to "unrestrained will". You have free will so long as you have the phenomenological impression that you can do what you please - i.e. you are not restrained in any way.

The issue with determinism that gets people so uneasy is that they come to believe in fatalism - which is entirely different from determinism. In fact, fatalism is largely indeterministic - no matter what you do, the outcome is the same. But with determinism, you're not getting dragged along by forces external to you. You still have to make a decision, it's just that the reasons for the decision take priority.

[–]koalaurine 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

In case 1, why did you choose to cross the street when the walk signal turned on? In case 2, why did Xavier choose as he did?

[–]woodchuck64 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

In both cases, the universe made it happen but only self-aware beings (peculiar persistent self-directed eddies of mass and energy) perceive that impersonal deterministic or non-deterministic flow as beliefs, goals and willed personal choice.

[–]MinusSix 6ポイント7ポイント  (21子コメント)

While quantum mechanics does show that there is a problem with 'absolute determinism' there are a couple of points I'd like to raise against you

1 When we talk about quantum interactions we are talking about an electron or at most several atoms or a molecule and these are mostly done at temperatures close to absalute zero not the 30-40°c that our heads are. So our brains are almost entirely classical

2 quatum mechanics is still probabilistic and on a macro scale this is essentially the same as determinism. This is my biggest coming in that how does 'probibalism' mean free will?

PS sorry for any grammatical or spelling error my English is pretty bad (edit for format)

[–]Cryusaki 1ポイント2ポイント  (17子コメント)

As much as I don't see the logic in your first point I'd like to point out that our sun is only stable due to quantum mechanics happening within the core at large scale. (2 hydrogen atoms bonding into helium by quantum tunnelling into one another due to uncertainty in their position) Without this the sun would collapse and this is the core of the sun, not near absolute zero.

I don't think OP is saying nature working with probability means we have free will, rather he is saying we know nature is not deterministic and we can infer that if nature isnt deterministic than neither are we, leaving the only other option that we have a level of free will (Althought fundamentally unpredictable would be a more accurate way of saying it)

[–]DadTheTerror 0ポイント1ポイント  (15子コメント)

The uncertainty principle does not mean nature is inherently probabilistic, it might be or not. The principle goes more to the current limits of technology blocking our ability to observe without influencing the result.

[–]MinusSix 0ポイント1ポイント  (14子コメント)

While the uncertainty principle may not show things to be probibalistic quantum mechanics in general does as the square of the wavefunction is probability

[–]MinusSix 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I see your point with the sun and the reason quantum mechanics has any effect there is that the sun is incredibly massive so the low probability tunnelling occurs regularly due to the sheer no. of collisions. Basically my first point was our brains are basically deterministic due to being almost entirely classical I.e. our heads aren't large enough for quantum effects regularly and not cold enough for them to have high probability

I think with the probibalistic vs deterministic I don't see how if there is no determinism that means free will and also I think on a macroscopic level probibalistic is the same as deterministic

[–]woodchuck64 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

You might do well to check out Galen Strawson's point on exactly this:

... it seems clear that indeterministic factors cannot, in influencing what happens, contribute to true moral responsibility in any way. In the end, whatever we do, we do it either as a result of random influences for which we are not responsible, or as a result of non-random influences for which we are not responsible, or as a result of influences for which we are proximally responsible but not ultimately responsible. The point seems obvious. Nothing can be ultimately causa sui in any respect at all. Even if God can be, we can't be.

[–]den31 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Science doesn't show that we have free will. However, nor does it show that we do not.

The case of determinism is not understood by quantum mechanics, 9 out of 16 most important interpretations of quantum mechanics are deterministic or agnostic. Schrödinger equation is deterministic even if our observations don't appear to be. Bell's theorem does not exclude hidden variables even if it excludes local hidden variables. Mathematical chaos is deterministic, albeit can be arbitrarily sensitive to initial conditions. Though, this might be alleviated if not solved by the discreteness of fundamental structure of the universe (holography/digital physics) which could even make the universe some sort of deterministic Turing machine (a classical computer) which would leave no room for indeterminism.

However, whether true randomness exists or not is unknown and in my opinion irrelevant to the idea of free will (a postulate which would require a demonstrated phenomena to point to). What is the origin and nature of quantum noise is an interesting question, perhaps the most interesting question of all, but does not at this point and time appear to bring anything new to the table when it comes to free will. Our actions are either purely causal or causality is mixed with some randomness, neither of which is free or attributable to any "agent" or anything more than the laws of physics. Therefore, free will is an incoherent concept if you ask me. Neither causality nor randomness leaves any room for such and in my opinion, we have no reason to postulate such a thing unless something new is discovered as there does not appear to be any such distinguishable previously unnamed phenomena in existence.

It may of course forever be beyond our capacity to predict the future, but that does not mean that the universe would not be deterministic. It may even forever be beyond our capacity to tell if this is the case. Never the less this cannot justify the postulate of free will in my view simply because free will has no unambiguous definition nor does it appear to explain any existing phenomena.

I'm forced to plan and execute my plans, but I have no knowledge if my planning and execution is deterministic or not. At least it appears to be mostly deterministic as my thoughts always follow a fairly clear causal path from A to B to the extent I can tell and I appear to experience incapablity of creating any truly random decisions which don't have some causal chains behind them. I can always ask how I made that decision and I can always tell.

[–]Agm15 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

ITT: We need to define free will before we start arguing about whether or not it exists, guys.

[–]You_Gullible_Sheep2 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

What is this free will that humans possess but other particles do not?

And why does our inability to currently predict particle position proof of free will? Why is it not evidence that we can not currently predict particle positions and the issue is our limited understanding, rather than proof of free will?

[–]Deadmeat553 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Fellow physicist here:

This all supports indeterminism, not free will.

Determinism is only possible if there is an overarching equation or something that determines how absolutely everything in our universe will ever behave. Even the outcome of an isolated random state is determined. I don't think we could ever prove or disprove this, and I don't know if it really matters when the other reasonable alternative is indeterminism, which is basically exactly what you already talked about.

Free will is dependent upon consciousness, which has no evidence of being elementary in nature, but rather a derived quality from particle interactions and therefore irrelevant to the behavior of the universe.

[–]darthbarracuda 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

I agree with you that the whole "science PROVES there's no free will!!1!" is just bad science and even worse philosophy.

However, the alternative position - quantum indeterminacy - isn't free will either. It's random, so we have no control over it either.

So on the scale of (relatively) medium-sized objects, we see a kind of determinism emerge in the form of billiard-ball collisions. At the quantum realm, we see statistical probabilities. The further we travel "up" the "'scale" of the universe, the more stable structures we see - the probability of events occurring asymptotically approaches 1.

The best argument for libertarian free will that I have seen comes from the late E.J. Lowe - he argues for a unique kind of dualism, not so different from the Aristotelian conception, in which the mind makes the decision of the kind of action, while the brain makes the decision for the specific action. So for example, I decide to raise my arm. I decided to do the kind of action, called "raising my arm". But what I didn't decide to do was raise it at a 57.3 degree angle from the x-axis and a 23.7 degree angle from the z-axis. I didn't decide to raise it at a certain velocity or force, either. All of the specifics came from the brain, in an unconscious neural calculation. But, according to Lowe, the self (I) was responsible for initiating the kind of action. The mind tells the brain what to calculate for.

[–]OpticalPrime33 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

What kind of fucked up make believe science is being thought up these days that says we dont have free will.

This is what happens when you give people too much free time.

[–]lilwave 17ポイント18ポイント  (39子コメント)

I like Sam Harris' explanation

With free will, you would be the conscious author of your own thoughts. This means you would have to think your thoughts before you think them. But thats not how thinking works, thoughts just kind of spring out of your mind in reaction to a stimuli, either internal or external. Every decision you make is just the response to a stimuli based on your prior experiences, of which you have no control in the present moment.

[–]PM_ME_UR_MOTORBOATS 10ポイント11ポイント  (7子コメント)

You don't control ideation in your own consciousness. How many times have you "wished you had remembered something"? If free will is truly free, that scenario isn't possible. The driver in the machine only gets the information that is sent up from below, and considers instinct, experience and prejudice only as the subconscious allows.

Your consciousness is watching a movie being written by your subconscious processes, but claims authorship for the entire thing. Sort of like reddit commenters http://i.imgur.com/snLplqq.jpg

[–]lilwave 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yup, pretty much. It's not your fault that you think you have free will though. It makes sense that evolutionarily we have developed a false sense of ownership for our actions. So that we are more spurned to make better actions in the future. But in actuality we are just observers, noting what works and what doesn't so that our body's make better decisions in the future. Me, as in the voice in my head, just thinks he plays a far larger role than he actually does.

[–]eternaldoubt 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hence calling it driver cements the (false) intuition, better call it a passenger (a somewhat bossy, annoying and mouthy one).

[–]Bdiculous 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

This can't be right. If that was the case we wouldn't be able to consciously change our behavior to better ourselves. I consciously choose not to drink, I have the urge all of the time, but that doesn't mean I blindly act on it. I choose not to because I know alcholoism runs in my family. On the other hand I can consciously choose to throw all care to the wind for that day and do it anyway, which I have in the past, as an example anyway. Like choosing to not give into peer pressure or choosing a flavor of ice cream although i like all ice cream flavors.

[–]krbzkrbzkrbz 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

You are trying to make a distinction between the action of deciding not to drink when your body wants to versus doing literally anything else, but there isn't a difference. They're all the result of the chemicals that make up you. Changing your behavior is based on all prior experiences and things that have happened up and to that point. That includes events prior to your birth.

Feeling an urge and then not following through with it does not prove free will. That is possible even if you were just an observer, riding along with no control.

[–]BearlyBreathing 5ポイント6ポイント  (18子コメント)

That's just confusing the will with thoughts. Thoughts are just things in the world like any other. The difference between having free will or not is in the ability to choose what to do with them once they are here. If we can do that, then we have free will.

That we are not "the conscious author of our own thoughts" is no more important than the fact that we are not the conscious author of our immediate sensual experiences.

If there is an apple in front of you, you cannot simply will the apple out of the existence. It's presence in front of you has nothing to do with any conscious effort on your part. But why should that bother us if we are free to choose what to do with it once it's here?

[–]lilwave 7ポイント8ポイント  (7子コメント)

But all of our actions come from thoughts, or at least the actions that one thinks of when they are trying to make the case for free will. You have your actions driven by instinct, like quickly pulling your hand back from a hot stove. I think its easy to see that that action wasn't under your control. You didn't make the decision to do that, you didn't think before you acted, you felt pain from the heat of the stove and as is human nature, quickly pulled your hand away from it.

The actions that you think about in relation to free will are ones where you make a conscious decision. When you see an apple in front of you you think," What should I do in this situation?" You think about anything important to the decision," Am I hungry? Do I like apples?" etc. And when you feel that you have solid enough reason, you take action. So necessarily, actions come from thoughts. And in this scenario (like all others) you were not the actual conscious author of those thoughts. Thus, you are not the author of the corresponding action taken.

Any decision you make is a result of your reaction to stimuli. This reaction is informed by a combination of your prior experiences and genetic makeup. Both of which you have no control over. It's all just cause and effect. Most people agree that the universe is governed by cause and effect in everything except themselves. "Everything has a reason except for my actions because I make decisions because I have free will." I think this false conclusion comes from the fact that we are all looking out at everything from the our own perspective and thus cannot fully perceive ourselves (or at least it's harder than perceiving things outside ourselves). I don't think brain material is special like that.

[–]conwayddd 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

So you have a thought and now you are going to decide how to react to it. What makes you decide to decide to react that way? And what makes you decide to decide to decide. I think you see what I'm getting at

[–]nocaptain11 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

Yes, but the "will" as you are defining it (the act of assessing your thoughts and using them to make a decision) is still a thought in and of itself.

If there are thoughts in my head about making a sandwich, I obviously didn't choose to author those thoughts. And even if I make the decision to actually go prepare the sandwich, the idea or the notion to choose that course of action was a thought that appeared in my brain without "me" putting it there.

I think this whole question eventually boils down to how we choose to define the "self." I believe that we have "being" which is sensory perception and awareness of physical existence, and that our egos are the summation of the thought activity of our brains, and which thoughts we choose to identify with because of our environments. But, if someone regards identity as something more metaphysical than that, then their definition of the "will" would be different I guess.

[–]BearlyBreathing 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

the "will" as you are defining it (the act of assessing your thoughts and using them to make a decision) is still a thought in and of itself.

How can this makes sense?

To consider the will a thought it must have all the properties of a thought.

We have agreed that thoughts are things which may be assessed, so, in order for something be a thought, we must be able to hold it in our minds as an object for assessment. Can we so hold the act of assessment (the will) up for assessment? I don't see that we can. It's like an eye attempting to gaze backwards into itself.

I can conceive of the thoughts the will assesses, sure. I can see where it picks one up or sets one down, but I cannot conceive of what does so. The thing which relates all my thoughts is itself unrelated to any of them except in the relation, so how then could I conceive of it? Obviously something which is inconceivable cannot be a thought.

It's this inconceivable thing that I call the will, because, in spite of not being able to conceive of it, I seem to be able to control it. That is to say, I seem to be able to control my thoughts in a way that has nothing to do with thinking. In fact, I can choose to not think, and even in the absence of all thought that thing which deals with thoughts, which I call the will, remains.

It's probably fair to say this has to do with "self." Obviously the experience of setting aside all thought and sensory perception, knowing that is even possible, must suggest that whatever "I" am has nothing to do with any thought or idea. How could it if I can go on existing without them and happily so? And my ability to pick up or set down thoughts and ideas extends to the ego (though it's difficult to exercise it here). In fact, all the things attached to my ego seem essentially arbitrary, a tangled web of confused thoughts bound together in the futile effort to sustain a sense of "self" which is conceivable, which is not the will.

Is that metaphysical? I don't know, but that's the best I can describe it.

[–]Dat_grammar_tho 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

the "will" as you are defining it (the act of assessing your thoughts and using them to make a decision) is still a thought in and of itself.

Just change the word "will" for "urge" and the meaning becomes clearer. You don't pick what your urges are gonna be.

No distinction is possible between the urge to scratch your nose, the urge to have sex or the urge to find a job, they are all things you experience without wanting to, then react accordingly (just like thoughts, mental images or mental sounds).

[–]BearlyBreathing 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Just change the word "will" for "urge" and the meaning becomes clearer.

That doesn't work. The will is the opposite of an urge. Or, rather, it is the thing which can experience an urge and choose to act on it or not.

Yes, we all have urges, and we can't help but have them. The amazing thing is that we are not bound by those urges. We are free to ignore them, channel them into activities we deem productive, or simply obey them. That's what it means to have a free will.

[–]koalaurine 10ポイント11ポイント  (9子コメント)

Disproving determinism doesn't prove free will. Anyway if we were totally free, we wouldn't be following any laws and that would "mean" chaos - an absence of identity and definition: "we" wouldn't be. In order for "us" to have any kind of freedom at all, "we" must first exist. Preserving "identity" requires a rational (law-abiding) transition over time. In order for freedom to exist meaningfully for us, we must define it, and that means setting up fixed properties and limitations for it.

[–]Make_E_U_Great_Again 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

You're confusing freedom of will with freedom of action.

[–]koalaurine 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

If our "will" was not subject to laws beyond our control, it would be "in" chaos. Freedom of action, imaginarial or physical, is the best we can hope for when it comes to "freedom". Free will is a lost cause.

[–]Make_E_U_Great_Again 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

No, freedom of action is totally implausible, impossible and impractical in a society, freedom of will however is not. Freedom of will does not imply meaning to want to do something, it means having agency over your own mind. Freedom of action is a complete lost cause, it isn't realistic in any shape or form.

[–]koalaurine 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hold on. We couldn't be more opposed here. I hope you will elaborate for me further. As for my end, do you not exercise freedom of action merely by not being impeded from corresponding with me here? You are not, for example, being blocked from expressing yourself, at least not significantly, here on Reddit in /r/philosophy.

[–]BearlyBreathing 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Disproving determinism doesn't prove free will, but it certainly leaves the door open for it.

And "totally free" strikes me as itself being a meaningless phrase and probably unimportant to the question of free will. If my choices are not predetermined by my present state, that's enough. If I can create future states which cannot be predicted by analyzing the present state, that's enough.

But consider also that your argument really just amounts to a defense of the ego. Is it really necessary to have an "I", a "we", an "identity"? If, as you suggest, reconciling freedom with our sense of self basically forces us to set all kinds of laws and limitations which really seem to render "freedom" meaningless, then perhaps that's a problem with identity, not freedom.

[–]koalaurine 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

We seek free will in our ultimate quest for freedom and power in general. My argument is a defense of the innermost parts of the ego that drive all others regardless of how we wish things to be otherwise. Rather than seeking to be free from what amounts the baggage of our "selves", we ought to be using every "thing" at our disposal to "express" our "selves".

[–]DadTheTerror 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Disproving cognitive determinism may not prove free will, but it is a necessary step to do so.

[–]koalaurine 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Hold on. "Cognitive determinism" is different from "physical determinism". Just because, logically, quantum fluctuations are "random" doesn't mean that there are no laws or causes involved in the progress of our cognitive processes (minds). Cognitive is also a funny word because it implies brain which implies matter which implies complex physical interactions and systems, some of which may forever lie beyond our control.

[–]TheOboeMan 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm always wary of people making metaphysical claims from a scientific perspective. Science itself presupposes certain metaphysical propositions, so it begs the question on all of those propositions it assumes.

That's not to say that I disagree with your conclusion. I just don't think you're going about getting there in the proper way. Science is simply unfit to answer these kinds of questions.

While certain experiments don't undermine the notion of freewill, they don't support it, either.

[–]deepspacefreefall 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

free will does not exist. Not true free will. Yes, we have the ability to make choices. But we can't choose the choices available to us. In life our intelligence, appearance, and the environment we grow up in have everything to do with who we are and what we become. And we have ZERO say in any of them. The most influential factors in our life are random dealings.

An unintelligent person can't really be blamed for being unintelligent when they are the offspring of parents with low IQs. This person is going to make stupid decisions. An overweight person deserves what blame for being overweight when they are genetically predisposed to having this issue? This person could have insecurities affecting every facet of their life. A person with mental illness brought on by abuse suffered in childhood at the hands of family deserves what blame for their burden? This person will view the world and the people around them differently, affecting relationships and stability.

The choices we make have everything to do with factors we have no control over.

[–]Juggernaut_Bitch 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I still believe in determinism to the truest extent, similar to Einstein's view of it. One thing I would like to point out is that our perspective on the quantum realm is not a clear cut picture like we like to believe it is. We don't have perfect measuring capabilities and our understanding of it is a limited one. We also must take into account that the universe is always evolving (new elements have been created over time, new structures such as the microscopic lattice, new lifeforms, I would even include the expansion of the universe as a form of evolution.) With that said we have to come to our own conclusions about the universe from our limited vantage point.

I am also a firm believer in the butterfly effect, we can't predict them but one thing always leads to another and it's usually the start of the chain that has the most influence. Anyways, nice post I enjoyed the read!

[–]notasqlstar 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Here is the problem with your line of thinking:

  1. If the universe is either predetermined, or determined, there can be no free will.
  2. There is no room for free will if the universe is random.

[–]brewco 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Following up on determinism vs. free will. It's clear that if determinism exists (e.g. everything is perfectly predictable, so choosing between different outcomes is impossible, it's not possible to deviate from prediction), then free will (as it allows the ability to choose between outcomes) can't exist. As many in this thread have pointed out, the converse is not necessarily true, that it is possible to have the ability to choose between outcomes but not have free will (e.g. a computer).

So the OP's contention is that the Universe we live in is not a strictly deterministic thing, which is completely correct. It absolutely does show that this Universe does not prevent free will from existing. But it does not prove that we do have free will, just that it is possible.

Borrowing from John Lucas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lucas_(philosopher)#Free_will

There's a mathematical basis for the same argument, that even formal logic shows that strict determinism can't actually exist, at least when it comes to mathematicians.

[–]ZackScott 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I like to use this definition of free will that Google provides:

the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate

Determinism covers the fate aspect.

When we discuss randomness and uncertainty, we might be dispelling fate, but we're not dispelling necessity. We can show that particles in the brain act randomly or in an undefined manner, showing these particles are not guided by fate. But how does this show that our choices and actions are not governed by necessity?

Is our will controlling these reactions in our brain, or are these reactions controlling our will? I don't see how solely addressing determinism answers this.

[–]bjkt 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Definition of terms is crucial to all of these arguments, on either side of the fence.

I personally don't see the logic behind any case for free will, or compatibilism. I will agree that many of the common examples that determinists use to "disprove" free will aren't complete on their own but they always seem to point at something funny that doesn't get dealt with on the free will side.

Currently it is just sticky where the philosophical and scientific lines blur.

Anyways, I enjoyed the post and I appreciate the sources and arguments.

[–]subjectiveobject 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is a great post, thanks fot the links.

[–]Floppy_Nugget 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

The piece of philosophy that fixes this argument is as follows:

  • Not being able to be predicted is not the same thing as being freely chosen. Any amount of randomness (quantum fluctuation, not being able to know both both the position and velocity of a particle, etc) does not add to free will.

[–]Prophet_Of_Loss 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

A virtual particle annihilation within my frontal lobe set off a chain reaction that compelled me to write this post.

[–]emil-sweden 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Bravo for crushing the determinism argument against free will with QM. Considering the overwhelming success of QM it is hard to argue against it on a fundamental level today. But as many in the comments points out is that is not the same as proving anything about free.

As many of these "spiritual" questions the fundamental problem is often defining the concept to be proved in a reasonable way. So what do you mean with free will?

Do you have a reasonably scientific definition of free will? Because I have never really seen a good one and that is my main reservation against free will at the moment.

[–]philmethod[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

G. E. Moore in pricipia ethica talked about base concepts, the colour yellow, for example. We know that particular wavelength mixtures of lights produce the sensation of seeing yellow but the basic experience of seeing yellow cannot be defined further with other words. You could not describe with words to a blind man what it is like to see yellow.

A compound concept might be a horse if you have experience a hoof and fur and a cow I could use somekind of compound analogy of you're existing experiences to describe a horse to you, and maybe you could recognise a horse if you say it.

You couldn't describe the subjective experience of hearing music to a deaf man in a way he could fully understand no matter how many words you use. Ofcourse sound is produced by pressure waves, but this is different from subjectively hearing.

I'm inclined to think the subjective experience of "self" is a basic concept and not a compound concept. Being a self is an experience like seeing yellow or listening to music, I'm not sure you can define it anymore deeply. We have a subjective sense that we ourselves (an irreducible concept) make decisions, that those decisions are not always predetermined or predestined but are actions that we create. Again this sense of "us" having an "influence" in the decisions we "make" in life, is a kind of irreducible basic concept. I'm not sure if there's that much more that you can say about it from a scientific point of view. Ofcourse you scientifically measure different things that statistically influence our decisions, but the experience of the "self" making "choices" is something that is irreducible and subjective.

If everything in the universe was perfectly predictable then this believe that there are possibilities we choose between could be falsifed as an illusion. But since the universe isn't perfectly predictable it can't.

[–]redditicMetastasizae 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Electron orbitals are probabilistic math.

Quantum physics is probabilistic math.

Just because the nearest we are able to approximate the location of an electron is, "probably within this area", doesn't mean that said electron's position or velocity are "fundamentally undefined". It means we don't know them.

Turns out it's hard to calculate the exact position and velocity of a particle that is "fundamentally" infinitesimally small and "fundamentally" infinitely fast.

[–]dutchwonder 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Here's the thing about the universe. It doesn't actually give a shit if we can see or know where something is. It just do.

Determinism doesn't say that we have to be able to know all things or quantify all things for it to be deterministic. We are not the hinge point of such things that it has to be understandable to humans.

[–]XWolfHunter 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think that the discussion about whether or not we are in possession of free will is fairly meaningless. It centralizes on the conscious mind, which is a tiny tiny fraction of the actual mind. Of course decisions will be made by the brain of which "you" are unaware, this happens more often than not. That's kind of the whole point of Eastern philosophy. You modify your conscious mind so it conforms to the subconscious. Losing delusions, like the ones that led you to writing this post. There's no "you" to be in possession of free will. You're just a tiny tiny poorly adjusted part of a galaxy-scale supercomputer. The idea of free will doesn't even matter.

[–]zombie_snuffleupagus 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Maybe you should define "free will" first.

Reading comments below, I see differing thoughts on what that would even entail.

Would it mean choosing what influences to allow to affect our decisions? By choosing which memories to review, or memories to even remember?

Would it mean always choosing to act non-deterministically? To always ignore, or even contradict, our history?

[–]TheFawkesGuy76 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I read an article on free will and it claimed we didn't have any, but the theory they pose to me sounded like a strong case for free will. They said that those that believe in free will are generally responsible while those that felt there was none were immoral. Seems to me like we do have free will. But hey, I'm no philosophizer.

[–]MontrealUrbanist 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Determinists would argue, and correctly in my view, that a particle's undefined state is simply included in determinism. There's no reason to exclude it.

[–]hsfrey 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

If your decisions are made by random quantum fluctuations, is your will any more "free" than if they're deterministic?

[–]jdawgeleven11 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I would only add that neuroscience has moved far beyond the experiments of Libet.

Our understanding that patterns of subconscious neural activity, outside of any decision making machinery, can predict conscious behavior is just kind of a clincher for me. Without even getting into whether the universe is deterministic, probabilistic, or neither.

[–]TheBraveTroll 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

You realise that the hard problem of free will is not solved by showing that the universe is either deterministic or not?

Having an indeterministic universe does not help the case for free will at all. If everything has built in randomness then that poses the same problems that determinism currently poses to the traditional conception of free will.

In other words, read Daniel Dennett.

[–]themailboxofarcher 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Lets all just keep in mind that anyone who emphatically states that there absolutely is, or absolutely is not free will should be ignored and completely ostracized if not burned at the stake for heresy. It is at all times wholly inappropriate to assert as proven fact something for which we do have sufficient evidence. In fact it is the worst cardinal sin in all of science, logic, philosophy, and really all learned pursuits.

I don't think OP is doing this, but far too many people do.

[–]Bottled_Cat_Farts 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Determinism is not a dependant variable of free will. Your argument is completely invalidated by this fact alone. You had some good thoughts but ultimately, the premise of your case for the existence of free will is inherently flawed. Determinism or not, our agency is an emergent property of the universe. Agency is a dependant variable and we have no control over the laws of nature and how we are able to operate within them. Nature is the independant variable, whether we live in a deterministic or nondeterministic universe.

We do not choose who we are or where we are born or how our bodies and minds operate. Our agency is dependant upon physical properties, why else would brain damage exist if this wasnt true? If true free will existed, brain damage would not exist. I think you are arguing for a different definition of free will that many do not care for, such as Dan Dennett's.

[–]colin_dm 2ポイント3ポイント  (6子コメント)

What most people don't get is that YOU ARE YOUR BRAIN. As in, your brain makes decisions FOR you. Everything you know as you mentally and emotionally has become that way because everything in life has stacked up like a tower and led up to this point. As your brain keeps stacking more and more floors you will get mentally and emotionally more complicated because your brain will have experienced more. Even your personality changes very rapidly in the first 26 years of life. As in people's logic also change. You could also argue you're a slave to your own brain because it's impossible to prove wrong (although that'd be irrational).

[–]victoriaseere 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

YOU ARE YOUR BRAIN

Can you back this claim up? You assert it in all caps but without any support.

[–]aCULT_JackMorgan 2ポイント3ポイント  (13子コメント)

First, thanks for starting another free will thread. I was disappointed that we couldn't have a civil discussion in the Atlantic article thread. We're all adults, not louts.

I am a fierce proponent of the lack of free will, I'll say that right off the bat. I didn't start there, though. In fact, I started earlier in life as a fierce proponent of free will. At the time, I associated the concept of not having free will as a religious concept. A god knows everything, so said god knows what you are going to do, so there is no free will. I was (and still am) completely against the concept of an external higher power pulling levers on humanity, and so I would fiercely argue for free will. I would say, "I can do whatever I want! I can make choices! We all can!" And not coincidentally, at the time, I was an extremely judgmental person. As the years have proverbially gone by and I've experienced much more in life, I now both have the complete opposite view of free will and am also (working on being) much less judgmental in my day-to-day life.

All that was just to say, you know, we've thought about this. We are not dogmatically sticking to one thing we've thought our whole lives, which is what it seems most individuals do on this topic. I hope this lends some credence to my arguments.

Which leads me to my first point on your post: our ideas about free will are tied to our identity/concept of self/ego more than almost any other subject. Western culture especially has so many pervasive undercurrents that are essentially based on the existence of free will that it factors into everything we do. Without free will, why are you more deserving? How do we punish people? How can I justify disparity in my life and others? Well, "you" have to "try harder," is the answer we get. "You" just need some "motivation" and then you will "make" the "right" "choice". I realize the quotes seem like overkill and childish, but I'm just trying to point out the number of words in that sentence that are based on the concept of free will, including your concept of self, your precious precious ego.

People are unwilling to debate about free will because it causes massive ego conflict with the threat of disolving the ego. Once you are OK with your ego being disolved, you can tolerate debate on such topics more freely. Let's all take this step now.

I acknowledge fully the limit of knowledge in this realm of existence and with these humanoid forms we have. First, there is fundamentally a finite amount of storage and processing power available in the human brain, although these are both sizeable numbers. Still, one can imagine a program that by virtual consumes more processing and storage resources than are available. In fact, this is done all the time in silicon-based computing, by writers of test suites and viruses alike. So fundamentally, one has to acknowledge one's own limit of ability to take in and evaluate information. You can reach this conclusion without knowing anything about sub-atomic particles or quantum mechanicsl, which I think is important in debates such as this. It is easy to get bogged down in scientific studies and terms, which some people in the debate will not fully understand or misconstrue.

That said, I agree completely, there is a fundamental limit to knowledge and information, and this is nicely demonstrated by the inability ever know both the exact position and velocity of an electron. I used this exact example in a post reply just the other day to say, we can't ever know everything. And I do agree that somewhere beyond that bound of knowledge, there are things that we can't understand or maybe even fathom.

Where our opinion diverges with yours is that we believe the lack of free will can be explained without getting into that kind of debate at all. What is commonly referred to as "a choice" can also be explained just as well by "engaging a higher-level thought function using a combination of neural areas that weighs all known information on a subject and determines a course of action for the system that best satisfies the system's stated goals at the time the function is processing." To make a choice, one only needs the processing power, memory, and routines to make said choice. This does not mean that one, a system comprised at the very root of atoms, in this three-dimensional worldspace, has a separate magical property beyond what we can observe that has an effect on these atoms so as to cause a different result from the choice function in our brains.

We came to this conclusion separately from Sam Harris and became aware of his work while researching these new (to us) ideas. If I thought I had free will, I might try to take credit for this. I could say, I thought of it before Sam Harris, I deserve the credit. I would imagine how Leibniz felt. But I know that I am just anothe bag of atoms using up energy to move around matter and information, using a combination of systems, including the brain. I arrived independantly at this conclusion when I had a certain combination of information and routines for processing information that the output was the appoximately the same. Psychological experiments are attempts to reverse engineer these routines and determine how reliable these reverse engineered examples are. It's like hacking a NIC (computer network interface card) driver because you can't get the source code, and then doing testing to see if it really works on all the revisions of that NIC. I feel like it's already understood that there will be samples that will not behave in the same way, but again that does not intimate free will, just a deviation in psychological routines in different individuals.

As noted in the Atlantic article that caused so much uproar, whether or not you believe in free will has far reaching implications in social justice. I feel so strongly about the lack of free will now, admittedly, because I've been detained against my will. Detained against my will - or I guess I'll say against my system's output that I did not actually constite a threat to anyone in society and that being jailed was not agreeable to my system - by law enforcement for having in my posession, and indeed cultivating, organic matter that was deemed illicit by the state. Deemed so because of a moral judgement about the ability of this organic matter to change psychological routines in a way falsely deemed dangerous to society, by people who would use free will in their arguements about taking away my freedom and doling out fines. Instead of allowing me to pursue happiness freely, as is a human right, my way of life was nearly ruined. I was actually extremely lucky, worked the system well, and got away with relatively little detriment to my life. There are many that are not so lucky, and are systematically oppressed by dogmatic systems. Systems that make moral judgements on individuals based at the core on a flawed arguement of free will and responsibility.

If you come to see it our way, there's no reason for this. If your brain worked differently, you'd already see it our way. Maybe some day in the future you will. And if you do so, it won't be because you freely chose to think differently. It will be because of differences in brain function and information. And once we can all understand that, we'll probably actually treat each other more civilly. After everyone freaks out about having to rebuild their egos, that is.

[–]merton1111 0ポイント1ポイント  (13子コメント)

You hate people that talk about determinism, and I hate people who bring science knowledge into philosophy. Things being uncertain have nothing to do with free will, just like determinism.

[–]bldvlp 16ポイント17ポイント  (12子コメント)

While I disagree with OP, your sentiment is pretty ignorant. Science and Philosophy go hand in hand.

[–]merton1111 1ポイント2ポイント  (10子コメント)

Some science sure, but almost all uses of science to come to some philosophical conclusion here is flawed.

Quantum mechanics: FREE WILL EXIST

kind of bullshit.

[–]Caelinus 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Only because Quantum Mechanics does not really say anything either way, and so bringing it in is not scientific.

I think we need to define what qualifies as free will, or even what it would be before anyone can discuss it though.

I can choose to go downstairs and get a glass of water right now, or not. I am making that choice. I am not sure that whether it is deterministic or not matters. I still choose it.

If we require some greater metaphysical construct to have free will, then yeah, maybe it does not exist. (Though at that point we can not tell.) I just think that is far more than what is required to be free to make choices.

Being "me" is what is most important to my decision making process. Without a me, there would be no reason to make choices.

[–]merton1111 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Exactly. You pretty much showed that physics is not required for the argument.

[–]Csongli 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, most of it at least.

[–]swearrengen 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Then maybe, as a physicist (or "natural philosopher"), you can apologise on behalf of Newton for popularising and cementing within the British imagination the atomistic billiard ball model as a description of causality! :P

Yes, the billiard ball model (in physics) has changed - but there has still been no corresponding revolution in our understanding of causality in physics or philosophy that explains the existence of seemingly "fundamentally undefined" things, or of "things that can pop into existence seemingly uncaused" or of "prime movers".

(I believe a consistent formulation of the law of causality would be "Things (can only) act according to their nature" but without a modern day Newton to advocate it with a model, I doubt it will ever overturn the billiard table).

[–]Cryusaki 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I doubt we ever will, we are stuck with our ape brains whether we like it or not

(Unless you want to get sci-fi with brain chips and what not)

[–]mkai5 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

A good way to think about why probabilistic uncertainty doesn't imply free will is to imagine 1000 identical yous, each in an identical situation (say, faced by a saber toothed tiger), in an identical universe. Whether they all react the same way, or each have a mental die roll that determines which way they react (maybe one half run and the other half scream and fight), each does not freely choose which way to act. Also, I'm not too up to date on the physics, but keep in mind what we know now as probabilistic could actually be deterministic in a way we just cannot perceive yet.

[–]TinyPinecone 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

About determinism in physics- regardless of whether or not you define free will as randomness, don't rush to the assumption that the universe is not deterministic. It might actually be more plausible that the universe is deterministic (including the quantum part of it).

If you will recall Schroedinger's equation (the equation telling us how things evolve in time at the quantum level) you'll see that it's deterministic. To remind you, Heisenberg's uncertainty principle can be derived from this equation, and that principle has nothing to do with probability. The only place where probability enters Q. physics is through measurement- when a Q. system is measured it collapses -randomly- to some state or another. But measurement-randomness may not be a law of nature: you can easily show that any big quantum system will look like a probabilistic classic system (that's Schroedinger's cat in density matrix formalism). So most chances are that Q. physics is completely deterministic, but it looks probabilistic when we look at "big things", as in systems with many degrees of freedom.

If you want a more "mathy" explanation I'll be glad to give one, I tried to make this easy to get. Also, I'm pretty sure this still holds in relativistic regimes (QFT), although that is a bit more complicated.

tl;dr- Quantum physics is probably deterministic

[–]MortalSisyphus 0ポイント1ポイント  (10子コメント)

An event in the universe is either Caused or Not Caused. (P OR NOT P)

An event which is Caused is Determined. An event which is Not Caused is Arbitrary.

Every event in the universe is either Determined or Arbitrary.

Free Will is defined as being neither Determined, nor Arbitrary.

Free Will is therefore not an event in the universe.

[–]m4265 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

"An event which is caused is determined. An event which is not caused is arbitrary."

A lot to unpack with these two statements. I can imagine two events that would correspond with the first sentence: 1) The wind topples a tree in a storm. 2) I decide that a tree is a potential risk to my house, so I gather the equipment and knowledge needed, and topple the tree myself.

In both scenarios, a tree was toppled (causal). It seems like these are two radically different events, though. Both would fit with your definition of "determined," but your definition of determined doesn't give enough of an account to differentiate between the two events I gave.

Would you put the wind-felling-the-tree into the arbitrary class? Actually, I'd like an example as to what an arbitrary event would be from your definition.

[–]Hencenomore 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

Your assumption is that the set of possible events in the universe is limited to P or NOT P. Prove this statement.