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KeemStar swatted youtuber. (youtube.com)

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[–]kazdejuis 4172ポイント4173ポイント  (304子コメント)

This swatting shit is so terrifying to me. If I hear someone smash out one of my windows or kick in my front door my reaction is probably to grab my gun and go investigate (assuming it's an intruder).

Oh, guess it's the SWAT team and I'm standing there pointing a gun at them and now I'm dead. Just because someone decided to make a prank phone call.

[–]throwitupwatchitfall 1585ポイント1586ポイント  (303子コメント)

100% with you. A lot of people here are jumping on the blame Keemstar bandwagon blaming Keemstar --- Which I totally agree with, by the way.

However, it's not just Keemstar. There's a bigger problem here that all it takes for your door to be broken down and armed gunmen bursting through it with flashbangs and full-autos is a fucking phone call.

And like you said, if you have a gun, you will likely be killed when all you think you're doing is defending yourself from intruders.

No knock raids... Get rid of them!

EDIT:

I'm thoroughly enjoying the debate this has sparked. Strongest point in favour of no-knocks are "What if it's a real situation?".

The strongest point on the other side is "How do you know when you're solely relying on an anonymous tip?" and also, like my parent comment said, it's very easy to think that intruders are breaking into your home. So you grab your gun. Swat team sees you with gun. You get murdered.

[–]prettyflyforadataguy 395ポイント396ポイント  (99子コメント)

no knock does not apply to these things these are reported as active situations which remove the need for warrants as they are exigent situations. No knock is bad but won't change swatting.

[–]Boomshakalaka89 184ポイント185ポイント  (57子コメント)

That, and they also knocked

[–]BigBennP 150ポイント151ポイント  (35子コメント)

So, this is a complicated problem.

The law (caselaw) says that unless there are "exigent circumstances" police must knock and announce prior to using force to enter a residence. Exigent circumstances include things like a threat of physical violence (to police or to another occupant), destruction of evidence, or whether knocking and waiting would be dangerous or futile.

The way caselaw works it only considers particular facts that come up on appeal and finds whether they were OK or not ok. In US vs Banks, a drug case, the Court found that where officers knocked and announce police and waited "15-20 seconds" before breaking the door down because they feared evidence was being destroyed" was reasonable.

However, the problem is three fold.

  1. Courts in many places freely grant no-knock warrants in "Swat" type situations, where someone is reported to be dangerous, or where drugs are in the residence.

  2. Pursuant to Hudson vs Michigan (2006) knock and announce rule violations don't trigger the exclusionary rule. So even if police are found to have broken the rule, evidence found for a criminal case can still be used. The logical basis for the decision was that police already have a valid warrant to search the premises, so violating the rule requiring them to knock first was an ancillary violation, and the evidence was still validly seized. This means as a practical matter, there are few consequences to violating the rule.

  3. Police have adopted practices that minimize percieved risk to officers, which usually means a very short or near instant "bang bang bang, police!....break door down" type situation.

[–]BillW87 10ポイント11ポイント  (7子コメント)

Police have adopted practices that minimize percieved risk to officers, which usually means a very short or near instant "bang bang bang, police!....break door down" type situation.

In an actual hostage situation like they were told they were responding to this would make a lot of sense to do. Banging on the door right before you toss through a flashbang means anyone armed in the room just turned to look in the direction of the flashbang. Breaching is very dangerous if you're actually in a situation where someone is prepared to defend the door that you're trying to breach through. Swatting is a no-win situation for the police. If someone calls to report a hostage or active shooter situation there really isn't much middle ground that they can take in their response. When someone gets swatted it looks to a casual observer like the police are overreacting by making a full tactical entrance to find a bunch of innocent people inside doing nothing wrong, but on the flip side if there was ever a real hostage or active shooter situation where they just knocked on the door and waited there's a good chance that could end up in a hostage or SWAT member getting killed.

[–]deathscape10 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Just curious--do we have the technology, thermal, idk, that could pick up radiation and see the number of bodies inside a residence?

Hypothetically speaking, if we do, and we see traces for two people inside sleeping in two different beds in the house, we could probably discredit the call about having hostages, walk up to the door, and ask questions.

I'm sure it's a bit more complex than that, but yeah. I feel like there's better methods..

[–]SadSniper [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yes we do have stuff like that but it's influenced by a lot of factors. Can't use it in a immediate situation but maybe on a stakeout providing you can get the warrant.

[–]SenorMasterChef [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It is really hard to see the body heat given off a person through a wall. Its like if you stand against a wall how long would it take for your body to cause that wall ti heat up to the same temp as you.

コメントをもっと表示する (4 返事)

    [–]LedLevee 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

    So quick question for you: if the police ram down my door like they did in this video and it turns out I was innocent and some asshole pranked me, can I get my money back from the city/cops?

    I hear a lot about these raids where they look for drugs/guns and it turns out there wasn't shit, but the cops end up destroying half the house in the process (ripping open closet doors, breaking down doors, breaking lamps, breaking fragile electronics). Sometimes people who get raided are out thousands.

    Is there any realistic chance they'll see some damage compensation or not?

    [–]BigBennP 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

    the wiggle word there is "realistic."

    Is there a chance you can claim reimbursement for damage? yes. Is it realistic? probably not, because it's going to vary wildly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and case to case.

    As a general rule, police officers and their agencies are protected by sovereign immunity and cannot be sued except for in limited circumstances. The two primary exceptions are:

    (1) a civil rights lawsuit under Sec. 1983, which allows a citizen to claim reimbursement from a state government actor if they violate a "clearly established civil right" OR

    (2) a claim through a state or city claims commission process, which normally handles things like "oh, city workers accidentally flooded my house" or "I just had a wreck with a city truck."

    Fact pattern wise, there's going to be two main avenues. Was the search proper, and two was the force and/or destruction within the realm of reasonableness. If both are true, you probably wont' have a viable civil rights suit. ON the othe rhand, if either is untrue, there may be room for a claim.

    Also, if there's room for a claim, there's room for a settlement. If the damage is "only" a few thousand dollars, the city may well choose to settle when threatened with a civil suit because the settlement is far less than what a lawyer would cost. The city also may have insurance for this possibility.

    There's also the concept of excessive force but as applied to property. If the police were looking for drugs, and say, broke open the door and tore the place apart looking for drugs, that's reasonable. On the other hand, if they were looking for a fugitive and wontonly knocked holes in all the walls, that might be excessive and there might be a claim.

    Claims commissions are different. However, they are slow, but are also notoriously subject to political whims and political pressure becuase in many cities the claims commission answers directly to the mayor or board of directors in a way that police do not. A case with huge negative publicity might do better in a claims commission.

    [–]LedLevee 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Thanks for your answer. It sounds a lot like there are laws, but the interpretation isn't set in stone. The police/government decides if the force is proportional, unless you get it in front of a judge then?

    I know too many stories where the police break things that really didn't need to be broken, unless you just want to intimidate/show power. The cops will say something like they tried to secure a dangerous situation or whatever...

    [–]Drop_ 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Pretty sure you're also forgetting another aspect of the whole 4th amendment jurisprudence which is the reasonable suspicion and probable cause.

    An anonymous tip alone isn't even sufficient enough for reasonable suspicion unless it's supported by either additional police investigation indicating accuracy of the tip or some open and obvious illegality that is confirmed when investigating the tip.

    It doesn't even make sense to start applying 4th amendment jurisprudence justifying no knock raids based on completely anonymous and unverified phone line tips that aren't coming from the a local or verifiable source.

    It actually makes zero sense that they can fully bypass the warrant requirement to enter property based on an anonymous tip alone. A no knock warrant should never be granted on an anonymous tip, period.

    [–]Boomshakalaka89 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I know. You are correct in all of that. There can be no bright line rule for things of this nature because every situation is different. People get pissed all the time because they think they could do the officer's job 1000x better, but they are sorely mistaken. I remember people getting so butthurt in Criminal Procedure (1&2)(Yes I just graduated from law school) about how it wasn't fair that they didn't wait longer. SWAT doesn't have any idea if the situation inside the house has escalated or what they are going to walk in on. They are doing their jobs and they don't want to get shot because they gave the person on the other side of the door time to prepare for their entrance.

    [–]sworeiwouldntjoin 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Courts in many places freely grant no-knock warrants in "Swat" type situations, where someone is reported to be dangerous, or where drugs are in the residence.

    Maybe easy solution(?): Don't award those warrants if the only source of evidence is an anonymous tip.

    • They could still execute other types of warrants without issue
    • If it's not an anonymous tip, they can still freely grant no-knock warrants

    This way it at least takes this debatably-excessive power out of the hands of anonymous tipsters.

    [–]BagofSocks 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Damn, that's a great comment.

    [–]admbrotario 1ポイント2ポイント  (12子コメント)

    As someone not from US, this whole swat thing is most idiotic ever. Here in Brazil they either must be on pursuit (having clear evidence of the crime, sights of the occurance, etc) OR have a warrant, otherwise is a no go.

    And WTF? Why are they handcuffing a CHILD? Really wtf happened to the whole "fredum" of "murica" ?

    [–]indyK1ng 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Why are they handcuffing a CHILD?

    They handcuff everyone they encounter in a potentially dangerous situation. Things are already volatile, they don't need people trying to attack the officers, the hostage takers, or each other. By handcuffing everyone, it reduces the chances that someone is going to try something that will get more people hurt than necessary.

    Police also do this on traffic stops in remote areas where they need to search the vehicle. They will handcuff whoever is in the car, search the car, then let them go if they don't find anything.

    This is not an arrest, it's simply a way of controlling the situation until everything is deemed safe.

    [–]sworeiwouldntjoin 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

    This is why it's also a good idea to shoot any family pets - that cat has a dangerous look in his eye.

    [–]indyK1ng 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I definitely don't agree with or defend a lot of the use of force by SWAT that gets reported. That being said, handcuffing people until the situation can get sorted is a reasonable precaution that doesn't risk killing people and does no serious harm (note: I'm not saying that they don't do any harm, handcuffs chafe).

    [–]BigBennP 2ポイント3ポイント  (8子コメント)

    So, just to be clear, I'm 99% certain that the police in this case had a warrant.

    What happens in situations like this is somone calls 911 and says "hey, I was just in house at #address, and they had guns and drugs everywhere!"

    Police take a transcript of the 911 call and fill out a warrant application, usually with some additional info like "this is in a neighborhood where drug activity is known to occur" and take it to the judge for a warrant. Meanwhile the swat teams loads up. The warrant gets delivered, and they roll in.

    [–]admbrotario 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

    I'm not much into American laws, but isnt the 4th amendment says a judge needs sworn testimony to issue a warrant. So, an anonymous call cannot set a warrant, right?

    [–]BigBennP 6ポイント7ポイント  (4子コメント)

    So, 4th says "probable cause based on oath or affirmation," but does not say that hearsay cannot be used.

    In truth, virtually all search warrants are based on some form of hearsay, because the one swearing under oath on the application is a police officer.

    So, for example, a typical search warrant application might say something like

    "We want a warrant to search the residence at #address for narcotics. The basis for probable cause is as follows:

    1. We received an 911 call on X date that says they were a neighbor and personally observed narcotics and guns on the premises and were concerned for safety. A copy of that transcript is attached.

    2. The area is one in which narcotics trafficking has been known to occur.

    3. Officer Y, drove by the residence and observed two vehicles, a license plate check on one of those vehicles revealed the owner had a past conviction for a drug offense."

    4. Based on my training and experience, I believe the above are indicators that there is illicit narcotics activity being conducted in the above house, and there is probable cause that we would find evidence of narcotics in the home.

    I swear under oath the above is true and correct to the best of my knowledge. /s/Officer John D.

    [–]admbrotario 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

    I see, but on the occurrence of a streamer being swatted, nice neighborhood, no prior convictions, etc. How can this be led to a warrant?

    [–]Drop_ 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    This is generally true. An anonymous tip can justify reasonable suspicion sufficient for a terry stop/frisk, but even that requires additional police investigation or at least confirming credibility of the tip with respect to the legal activity.

    Reasonable suspicion though is much less than the burden for probable cause which is the standard for issuing a warrant.

    The bigger problem, I guess, is that violation of the 4th amendment generally is seen only to warrant the exclusionary rule as a remedy, with no other real recourse.

    So since the people who are being no knock raided based on anonymous tips aren't being arrested, and thus they don't get anything unless they were injured, maybe.

    コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

      [–]oh_great_this_guy 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      As someone currently studying for the bar, you nailed the case law. It's nice to occasionally see correct legal information on here

      コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

        [–]throwitupwatchitfall 12ポイント13ポイント  (6子コメント)

        I'll be sure to "knock" on your door when you invite me over for a party... By smacking the door twice and then shattering the glass 1 second later.

        [–]Boomshakalaka89 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        That is all I ask

        [–]BadRabiesJudger 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

        Isn't that the craziest. In a situation where you have to act fast i understand the idea behind it. But if someone is pounding at my door instead of a typical knock. I am going to check outside another window. In that time i hear my door being knocked down im running for a weapon and i don't care if your yelling police behind me. Hell come to think of it pounding at my door probably will send me to a weapon right away.

        [–]throwitupwatchitfall [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

        But then SWAT sees a man with a gun and they take you out. Later it's found out that you were innocent, but by then you're only as alive as an internet story being shared on social media.

        [–]BadRabiesJudger [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

        Which dies off in 2 weeks and no one besides your leftover family is angry. Then as they try to pursue justice. They either get a lump sum of money that is coming from everyone's taxes or as per most cases the officers are found to have acted accordingly to the rules they made up. Meanwhile the people under question go on paid vacation.

        [–]throwitupwatchitfall [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

        We're only a few years away from 1776.

        [–]BadRabiesJudger [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

        I don't think we have the mental focus for that or even the driven passion. Any national or world tragedy seems to lose public interest within 2 weeks. Were beyond protesting and acting on it. Usually if we do protest it consists of a small focused young college crowd. The rest stick to social media for their "fights". Whats left is pretty much called a radical extermist these days. (You're god/lack of) forbid you care for the well being of you and your family and people there after. It's not a get off your ass soapbox speech just how it seems to be playing out.

        We gave away most of our rights to allow something like that to happen again. Plus if we did it would be culled so fast. Look at occupy wallstreet. Actually one of the best executed protests in ages. Lasted way longer then i expected. But it was barely an echo of a yell. People were getting disbanded and rather then that being something to strengthen people it barely inspired. Nothing really happened and eventually people forget. Hell look at hillary clinton. She get caught and called out on doing so much illegal activity with money and the same people protesting the inequality are going to vote and put her there. No time served which will give her more time to scrooge mcduck into that pool.

        [–]redog 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I have a buddy who answered a "knock" from a swat team. He had an impression on his face for a few weeks because they burst through the door as he was reaching for the knob.

        [–]christo334 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

        they knocked 3 time on a big ass house even if someone would have tried to answered. they would have made it 3 feet then the police would have barged in.

        [–]GoldenGonzo 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

        "Knocked". They slapped the glass then shattered it like 4 seconds later and breached

        [–]Boomshakalaka89 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        You're right. They should know the difference between knocking and slapping. They fucked up.

        [–]PandaTheDeadMan 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Just knock so hard the door breaks. Loophole!

        [–]randomfits 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        They totally knocked. Lol

        [–]AquaGiant 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Well more like violently banged on the door and then 2 seconds later proceeded to smash the glass of the door in.

        [–]Kruse 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        That makes it ok?

        [–]Fexxzz 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Oh yeah, they knocked for 3 seconds and then proceeded to smash the windows. Hell, people can be happy if I get my ass up a minute after ringing the fucking doorbell.

        [–]Boomshakalaka89 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        That's why I don't answer the door. Either it is a SWAT team and they are coming in anyway, or whoever it is can just text me.

        [–][deleted] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        they knocked for 5 seconds. are you stupid? there is a difference between knocking and waiting for at least 30 seconds for somebody to answer, to knocking for 5 seconds then smashing the window and throwing a flashbang.

        [–]Sleepy_Gary_Busey 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

        They usually knock anyway to get people to look at the door, breach right away, flashbang in. But seriously, these calls are active, and life or death situations (when true). Can't negotiate every situation.

        [–]admbrotario 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

        In Brazil, unless there is a pursuit of the crime, police force cannot enter somone's house without a warrant.

        It's just ignorant, in my opinion, to take annonymous calls of high-end threats, such as bombs, gun shots and kidnapping as a raid to someone's house. There is 0 evicence, but an annonymouse call.

        [–]Sleepy_Gary_Busey 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Yeah, in he US you do need a warrant for most if not all searches to enter homes, even cars sometimes. But the difference with this is they're called in for an active hostage situation which may or may not involve a deadly weapon up to and including firearms. As shitty as it is, they need to take the steps to preserve life as they see it (even if its a false call).

        However, you'd think they'd have this guys address and contact info after the first swatting, and not fall for it every time. Really sucks for this youtuber and his family, getting their door knocked down and handcuffed just because one youtuber has such an ego and idiotic following.

        [–]admbrotario 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        As shitty as it is, they need to take the steps to preserve life as they see it (even if its a false call).

        Yes, I concur. But there is 0 assessment on these "swatting". They just breach in, and if I were a criminal with a hostage, and the first sign of people trying to breach in, I'd shot my hostage in a split of a second. I mean, they could have boob-trapped the door, they could be with an entire arsenal of weapons, they could be an entire batallion inside the house, but they wouldnt know because they didnt assess the situation, which wouldnt need a breach in on most of the cases.

        [–]v0idl0gic 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

        no knock does not apply to these things these are reported as active situations which remove the need for warrants as they are exigent situations. No knock is bad but won't change swatting.

        The intersection between no-nock and castle-doctrine is pretty terrifying. The police are granted the right to breach without announcement and home-owners are granted the right to shoot people attempting to breach.... I can't believe this hasn't led to deaths where everyone is legally in the clear...

        [–]admbrotario 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        he police are granted the right to breach without announcement in United States of America

        FTFY

        [–]v0idl0gic 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        in United States of America

        This actions related to thread occurred in the USA, this context is implied.

        [–]Prometheus720 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Legally removing the need for warrants is not the same as morally removing the need.

        There is no need for these swat teams to have this capability. Period. The amount of harm they cause in private homes is far greater than the harm they prevent in private homes. For hostage situations in public places, swat teams are fine. But they don't belong in homes, especially when they're so often used for the pointless drug war.

        [–]Canadian_Infidel 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        But these things didn't exist before, so why do we need them now that crimes is at historic lows? Police boredom?

        [–]oXI_ENIGMAZ_IXo -4ポイント-3ポイント  (22子コメント)

        That right there is the problem. I can pick up my phone, call 911 right now and say "/u/prettyflyforadataguy has me hostage and I'm calling from his closet." A SWAT team will show up. That's why law enforcement should always knock. Because, like others, my first instinct when my door gets kicked down is to grab my gun. And guy with gun in house suspected of kidnapping is a dead guy, innocent or guilty.

        [–]Reead 20ポイント21ポイント  (12子コメント)

        What happens if someone actually is in your house with a gun? What if they're in the process of murdering your family? Wouldn't you want the police to respond as fast as humanly possible?

        This is not a no-knock raid to serve a search warrant, this is a SWAT team responding thinking they need to save someone's life from imminent danger. The only culprits here are the fake callers. They should be prosecuted and given the maximum possible sentence to set an example.

        [–]SearingEnigma 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

        Society needs to adapt and end shit like this. If all it takes is a phone call and people can do that shit anonymously through the internet, there's no value in even punishing those people for being idiots. It will keep happening. This is why we can't have nice things, and that's all there is to it. Figure out another approach.

        [–]banana__phone 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

        Figure out another approach.

        And what would another approach be to a hostage/active shooter scenario?

        The culprits are not the SWAT teams, nor the people in the house. The culprits are those who make these phone calls.

        [–]SearingEnigma 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Stand outside with a megaphone like any half-decent movie.

        [–]banana__phone 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

        ...OK, to a hostage situation, sure. But they already do that.

        But to an active shooter? Are you serious?

        "HEY! STOP SHOOTING! PLEASE?"

        [–]admbrotario 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Well, if it is an ACTIVE SHOOTER, means they have evidence of people shooting, so sure, go ahead and breach in. But otherwise, NO, stay outside and negociate.

        コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

          [–]Forest-G-Nome 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          At least surround the house and observe through the windows for a moment. You know, how they did it for 200 years up until the 1990's.

          コメントをもっと表示する (4 返事)

            [–]SqueezyCheez85 9ポイント10ポイント  (8子コメント)

            Read up on the exigent circumstances others are talking about. There are a lot of valid reasons why a no-knock warrant can take place.

            [–]admbrotario 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

            There are a lot of valid reasons why a no-knock warrant can take place.

            I've read... the only thing I can concur is that if there is an ACTIVE SHOOTER, means the police have clear evidence there is a gun and people are shooting. Otherwise, I dont see any other circumstance for that.

            [–]TheCanadianVending 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

            What about a hostage situation? A guy could be inside the house with family ready to kill, unknowing that the police have been called. SWAT team rolls up, sirens + lights off and readies to breach. BANG BANG BANG "POLICE" they shout. As they are waiting they hear shooting inside. They breach immediately. A family of four dead, including the shooter.

            Would you want this happening instead? Sure no-knock raids are shitty against low-level drug dealers, but if they need to have a possibility to save a life they should get in there ASAP.

            [–]admbrotario 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

            BANG BANG BANG "POLICE" they shout. As they are waiting they hear shooting inside. They breach immediately. A family of four dead, including the shooter.

            Isnt this exactly what we saw on the video?

            Would you want this happening instead?

            Assess the situation, peek thru the window, send in a cover police officer, if it's a real situation, you need to setup negotiation, not breach in.

            [–]TheCanadianVending 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

            I am not talking about a person who wants hostages, I am talking about a person who wants to kill people. Negotiating is not an option

            Peek thru window? What if it's night and they can assume everyone is asleep (in my example they are taken hostage instead)

            Send in a cover police man? Same problem as I described

            What video are you talking about?

            I personally think that no-knock raids suck, it's just that in some situations they are justified.

            [–]admbrotario 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

            I am not talking about a person who wants hostages, I am talking about a person who wants to kill people.

            If he wanted to kill people, people were dead before the police got there.

            Peek thru window? What if it's night and they can assume everyone is asleep (in my example they are taken hostage instead) Send in a cover police man? Same problem as I described

            I dont know, I'm not an investigator, they need to assess the situation. A few more options: Call the house, check with neigbors, etc.

            What video are you talking about?

            The link ?

            I personally think that no-knock raids suck, it's just that in some situations they are justified.

            I agree, but no unless they assess the situation and deem that a crime is occuring.

            コメントをもっと表示する (9 返事)

              [–]pewpewlasors 208ポイント209ポイント  (62子コメント)

              You're right about "No knock raids" in general, but that is not what this is.

              "Swatting" is calling in a threat that the police are required to take seriously, like a hostage situation. So, idk what you do about that, other than making Swatting a major crime.

              [–]Cpt_Tsundere_Sharks 157ポイント158ポイント  (38子コメント)

              Yes, see that's the part that makes it nobody's fault except whoever called. If they call in that it's a hostage situation, the police will and should be prepared for the real thing. If I or someone I loved were taken hostage, I wouldn't want the police taking their time finding out if my life is really in danger or not.

              At the same time, police are aware of prank calls like this all the time. As an EMT, I was taught to expect prank calls on occasion, but until proven otherwise must treat every call like it's real because if I make the mistake in thinking it isn't, someone else's life is hanging in the balance.

              [–]surprised-duncan 45ポイント46ポイント  (12子コメント)

              Kind of like calling in a fake bomb threat. That's a felony (I think).

              [–]ShadowthePast 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

              It is. My sister went to the University of Pittsburgh, and almost all of her senior year (2012 iirc) was full of anonymous bomb threats, day after day. I'm pretty sure they never caught the guy either

              [–]LiaM_CS 14ポイント15ポイント  (1子コメント)

              Maybe all of the threats were legit, but the poor guy could never get his bomb to work properly.

              [–]FishFloyd 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

              They actually did catch him - it was some mentally unstable dude in Ireland as it turns out.

              [–]Rowani 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

              I believe that anything that is an intentional waste of police time and resources is a felony.

              [–]Destiny_Seeker 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              correct

              [–]bschef 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Well I'll tell you this, it certainly isn't a misdemeanor.

              [–]IrrelevantLeprechaun 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

              Except keemstar is literally breaking the law by false swatting someone and he got by just fine.

              [–]surprised-duncan 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              That's what this entire thread is about, right?

              [–]hacksbeenjamin [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

              tis.

              [–]IceburgSlimk 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Except cops don't rush into a bomb threat. And if they rush into a hostage situation like that, the person just got done did killed. Said Precious Plum

              [–]uninvited_opinion 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Exactly. I dont think the emergency responders should necessarily change any of their protocols, instead the FBI needs to do investigations after false SWAT calls.

              [–]Mazzaroppi 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

              If this raid on the video was a real hostage situation the hostage would likely be dead by the way they entered. Anyone holding a hostage at gunpoint wouldn't be standing on a room with a glass front door, and when they would hear the cops entering they would likely kill the hostage or at the very least now be on a direct confrontation situation.

              I just can't understand why the fuck would a swat team raid into a house without first assessing the situation, where are the people inside, how many people, if what is happening inside is really what the anonymous phone call alleged it was,, if there may be bombs or traps set on the entrance... I can stay here all day coming up with reasons why it's bad to go in blind on an unknow situation, yet it's what these morons are doing endangering innocents lives time and time again.

              [–]KingSexyman 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

              I wholeheartedly agree with you that there should be more caution taken in SWAT actions, but it seems like your idea of a SWAT raid is as if it were Rainbow Six, where police magically know exactly what's going on in situations for SWAT teams. How would you know if a hostage is alive or dead? How would you know if it's real or not? How would you know what kind of area it is to determine where people are inside? It's not like a video game with sci-fi tech or something, this is real life with real lives on the line, and you can't expect these guy to just know what's going on 100% of the time.

              [–]vesaninja [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

              You clearly underestimate the shock that an unexpected assault causes. Hostage situations hardy never a like those you see in movies where someone holds someone on gun point and is waiting for the police. For example the situation could be some result of a argument that got out of hand or a robbery gone bad. In these situations busting suddenly through the door surprises the unprepared suspect and he will most likely just surrender.

              But if you give him time to realize the situation he might start planning his defenses and actually start holding the victim at gunpoint. And if he's prepared then there's really no way of preventing him from killing his victim.

              [–]Nillix 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              And generally these crimes occur across state lines, making it the purview of the FBI.

              [–]remotefixonline 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              You would think they would verify the identity of the caller before taking drastic action... hell I can't pay my cable bill without verifing my identity over the phone.

              [–]bigsheldy 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

              Yes, see that's the part that makes it nobody's fault except whoever called.

              Only in the US. Police in other developed countries aren't trying to shoot or kill everything they encounter.

              [–]Cpt_Tsundere_Sharks 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              No? Has there been an instance yet of someone getting SWATTED that someone has been shot as a result of it?

              [–]TheThornrose 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

              What if you call the house before you burst in? Or will that endanger any possible hostage?

              [–]Cpt_Tsundere_Sharks 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Depends on the situation. It's always "depends" and that's something that bothers me. People are treating these events like black and white scenarios but there are all kinds of shades of grey. Sometimes it's a Youtuber being SWATted, sometimes it's a real situation. And between those two there's all different kinds of responses.

              If it's a bank robbery or whatever, negotiation is a good method because it's what the robbers were after in the first place. They don't want to kill hostages, they just needed the leverage. If it's a house robbery, it might just mean the criminals are going to get away. If it's some bigger scheme like the hostage is being held as leverage against another person not against the police, maybe they'll kill the hostage as punishment for telling the police about it.

              There's just so much that needs context to consider the situation. And a lot of it depends on what the phone operator was told. Sometimes these SWAT raids aren't being called in for a hostage situation, it could be something like they called 911 and said, "There's a man with a gun trying to kill me in my house!"

              Context is everything so it's always just going to be, "depends."

              [–]UnknownXV [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

              Actually I would gladly accept longer wait times until the cops came out in full SWAT if that meant all of these fake SWATs calls would stop. Small price to pay.

              [–]Eswyft 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              I really hope this isn't hostage protocol. This is not how you prevent a hostage from being killed, this is how you ensure one is being killed. I'm seeing many people here say this is used in hostage situations in America. I really hope you're all wrong because the level of dumb fuckery that is required to think that in the case of a real hostage case the best thing to do is hammer down the door with semi autos pointed everywhere is the best option? Jesus christ, people will die.

              The preferred method the world over in hostage situations is to get the perp talking, period, end. The FBI does this, but it wouldn't shock me to find out asshole cops on a local level don't, I guess.

              コメントをもっと表示する (12 返事)

                [–]AetherMcLoud 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

                How is swatting jot a major crime already?

                [–]i_pk_pjers_i 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Swatting IS a major crime, it's a form of terrorism. https://www.google.ca/search?q=swatting+domestic+terrorism&rlz=1C1CHBF_enCA693CA693&oq=swatting+domestic&aqs=chrome.0.0j69i57.3551j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

                [–]Liveonafarm 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

                Because there haven't been enough cases where it is required for law makers to do something. Swat leaders have been told about these things so they are aware, but when you hear someone break the door down and grab a gun to defend yourself from an intruder, there is a huge risk.

                [–]AetherMcLoud 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

                How is accusing someone of a major crime while knowing full we he didn't do anything not a crime in itself already? It is all over Europe.

                [–]rabbitlion 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                It is a crime and people have been charged because of it, but it's not considered a very serious crime at the moment and it's often hard to investigate.

                [–]AetherMcLoud [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                How is it hard to investigate though? You know who called because you have Caller ID, and then you prosecute them.

                [–]Liveonafarm [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                Like I said, there isn't a law against swatting someone specifically in the U.S. But it is against the law to make false police calls. It is a violation of several laws, but there isn't a specific law against calling the swat team out on someone. Not to mention they don't trace a 911 call as soon as they receive one, to find out who is calling.

                [–]AetherMcLoud [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                Not to mention they don't trace a 911 call as soon as they receive one, to find out who is calling.

                Why DON'T they trace though? That's like the first thing emergency stations see here - the caller ID and additional info.

                [–]DistortoiseLP 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                "Swatting" is calling in a threat that the police are required to take seriously, like a hostage situation. So, idk what you do about that, other than making Swatting a major crime.

                Even then, part of the problem is where cops interpret "take seriously" as meaning "respond violently." Even before they know what the situation actually is, and when they should know well enough that if they get it wrong that whoever they just raided is going to presume they're burglars. Swatting is definitely more of a problem when the precinct called upon doesn't practice or respect deescalation or strategy in favour of just trying to solve every high pressure situation with blind, overwhelming force.

                Swatting is made possible by a fault in law enforcement first, not the existence of people who would abuse those faults. People that abuse faults and trust always exist no matter what system they're looking to abuse. The ultimate inability to trust the honour system with the public at large because even one person abusing those responsibilities ends tragically is precisely why we have dedicated law enforcement to replace lynch mobs and check and balances for them.

                [–]m0sh3g 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                But why to break someone's door without confirming? If it's hostage situation, shouldn't they try to establish at least phone connection with perpetrator to hear his demands?

                [–]imahik3r 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Required? Like the 2.5 hr wait outside the Fl bar following their "Better thee than ME" tactic?

                Yet when faced with a house with an infant or 11 year old girl, suddenly they're the greatest american hero charging in

                Fuck them.

                [–]DynamicDK 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                That is exactly how to handle it. Swatting should result in 10+ years at least. Life if someone is injured (or dies) during the raid.

                [–]free_my_ninja 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                The problem is that the culprits, I imagine, are often young and dumb. I imagine a ton of immaturity is responsible for these calls. I agree it's fucked up and should warrant severe penalty. However, I don't know how I feel about putting an impulsive 12 year old in jail for 10 years. I think maybe that should be a max for a first offense. That way the judge would have some fire power but could use their own judgement on a case-by-case basis.

                [–]kjhwkejhkhdsfkjhsdkf 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Stuff like this is one of the justifications that the government will use to further insert itself into telecommunications. After enough people die getting swatted, they'll introduce some measure allowing more intrusive tracing of calls. I'm pretty sure if they had to the NSA has the capability to trace any regular person doing swatting, at some point they will be allowed to. And of course a lot of other things will be throw in to the mix, and the actions of a few will fuck over everyone else.

                [–]Dolthra 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                I think a great think to do would be requiring the person who committed the "swatting" to be financially responsible for any damage done to the house, the person being swatted, and any permanent use of equipment by the team (like using a flash grenade). And it should then include some jail time.

                [–]i_pk_pjers_i 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Swatting IS a major crime, it's a form of terrorism. https://www.google.ca/search?q=swatting+domestic+terrorism&rlz=1C1CHBF_enCA693CA693&oq=swatting+domestic&aqs=chrome.0.0j69i57.3551j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

                [–]brazilliandanny 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                So, idk what you do about that, other than making Swatting a major crime.

                And even that won't help. All it takes is for a call from a payphone.

                [–]hacksbeenjamin [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                So, it basically is a crime.

                The fact is that they are using voip calls or spoofed numbers to call them in. If some fuckboi swats someone using their landline, they will certainly get right fucked.

                [–]ShittyJokeExpIainBot [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                Honestly, swatting should be charged as attempted murder, or just murder if someone dies.

                コメントをもっと表示する (4 返事)

                  [–]redundantexplanation 54ポイント55ポイント  (14子コメント)

                  This is a completely separate issue from no-knock raids. These people are calling the cops saying that someone's life is in danger, in other words someone is likely to die if the police don't break the door down.

                  I don't have a problem with the police doing this. If someone calls the police when some lunatic has a gun to my head, I don't want the police to ask the caller for proof or wait for a warrant or court order or whatever. I want them to break down the door and save my ass. That's what police are for.

                  The issue here is lack of repercussions for the false callers. They should face prison time equivalent to the crime they tell the police is in progress.

                  [–]xchino 12ポイント13ポイント  (10子コメント)

                  It's not a lack of repercussions, you could make swatting a capital offense and it wouldn't matter because it is literally impossible to get caught if you know what you're doing. These people are not calling in from their own phones, they are using VoIP routed through encrypted proxies like Tor.

                  [–]theivoryserf 4ポイント5ポイント  (8子コメント)

                  What sociopathic worms go to such lengths to ruin peoples' lives?

                  [–]TFW_NO_MEMES 6ポイント7ポイント  (4子コメント)

                  I had someone SWAT/attempt to swat me before. He only called in that I was armed with a knife and stabbed him though. Man you can't even imagine how fucking fast my heart was beating that night. I ran track and XC and my heart beat had never gone that fast before. I didn't know what was going to happen... He had also doxxed me so he found my old reddit account and shit and all that personal info.

                  It doesn't just happen to youtubers or streamers, any fucking skid that either knows how to do it or is abroad can do it and they don't get caught. Fuck SWATing and shit like that.

                  [–]DontBeSoHarsh 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                  Bored ones.

                  [–]vesaninja [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                  Well if you are going to swat then I'm sure everyone would do their best not to get caught.

                  [–]redundantexplanation 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  That is a good point. It sucks that there doesn't seem to be a way to get a bead on these people or stop them without compromising the effectiveness of first responders.

                  コメントをもっと表示する (3 返事)

                    [–]Blazebow 77ポイント78ポイント  (82子コメント)

                    Yes but you have to confirm somehow if it's a serious threat or not, it can't just be ignored.

                    [–]siegewolf 8ポイント9ポイント  (6子コメント)

                    Knock Knock "Hey mister murderer. Please tell us if you actually have a hostage or not. We'll totally believe you and if you say you don't we'll go home and have a cup of tea. Okay?"

                    [–]admbrotario 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

                    If they say no, they can ask to enter the house and investigate, if he declines they can go with probable cause.

                    Anyone that would be pranked by being swatted, would definetly ask the police to come in and look, no?

                    [–]siegewolf 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

                    Right, but a lot of times the swatter provides urgency which means the police have to act in the way you see. They usually make claims that they are going to shoot the hostage if they see police and shit like that. I would prefer the police act on these since if there is an actual hostage situation they might be able to prevent an innocent person being killed.

                    [–]admbrotario 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

                    they are going to shoot the hostage if they see police and shit like that

                    You mean shoot someone when they see the police? Well, then, policemen breaching into the house is the worst of the ideas, no?

                    [–]Xdivine 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                    Unless the people doing the hostage taking are planning on dying or going to jail for a very long time, they're almost certainly not going to kill the hostages once the police are there. They're not terrorists, they don't believe they're going to heaven with 72 virgins. Killing the hostages is a valid option when you think you can just kill them and leave, because then there's no witnesses and you're less likely to get caught. Once the police are there, you're getting caught basically 100% of the time. At that point, killing the hostages will either immediately get you killed, or get you sent to jail for life.

                    [–]admbrotario 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    Unless the people doing the hostage taking are planning on dying or going to jail for a very long time, they're almost certainly not going to kill the hostages once the police are there

                    Well, the problem here ... we dont know. I'd take my chances as a hostage for the police to negotiate, or take chances with the lunatic that takes people hostages.

                    [–]siegewolf [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                    If they see police either way. So if the police respond they'll shoot. So whether they breach or not. Better to breach.

                    [–]syncom_industrial 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

                    When I was LEO we were trained to verify and then respond. Example: I was on patrol when me and my sup got a call of a possible hostage situation. The caller didn't speak English very well and what dispatch relayed to us was that she had been locked in a closet in a closed building (Apartment complex undergoing renovations) by a bunch of people and that they were threatening to kill her.

                    EST (Our version of SWAT) was never called in. I set up perimeter on the corner of the building with my gun holstered but unlocked and ready to draw. My supervisor made entry into the building to verify the threat. Turns out what happened was that a 22 y/o guy was smoking cigs with 3 high school age girls in the building since he knew it would be empty. A maid who was on cleaning detail found them in an empty room and knowing they weren't supposed to be there she closed the door and locked it from the outside. They threatened to kill her when they got out of there and she got scared and called us. When they realized the police were there they got scared and we handled it fine.

                    No assault rifles needed, nobody got arrested or charged. They were all dependents and their sponsors were notified however, which is far worse of a punishment. This is what happens when you have proper training and strict policies on how to handle events like that, you don't just mobilize the big guns.

                    [–]admbrotario 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

                    See.... no FUCKING need to breach in. There must be an assessment of the situation. In this whole video you can see they leave the van straight into the house.

                    [–]syncom_industrial 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                    Well, the video is missing context. Sometimes the local DA issues the warrant based on poor intel where they think there is a legitimate violent suspect. That video could have been cops just rolling up on the first instict or it could have been the result of a warrant, no way to tell.

                    But yeah, verification should always be the first step in a phoned threat like that for a load of reason, both obvious and some not as much.

                    [–]admbrotario 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    As I replied on another comment: I dont know much about US laws, but isnt the 4th ammendment saying that a judge must have a sworn testment to release a warrant, do they take annonymous 911 calls as sworn testments?

                    [–]Cpt_Tsundere_Sharks 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

                    This is a case of when it's a false alarm though. What would have happened in that situation if it were the real thing? /u/syncom_industrial could have walked in and gotten blown away or taken hostage himself. I'm not saying he would have, it's just a possible scenario that comes to mind.

                    [–]syncom_industrial 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

                    Actually, my supervisor would have :P That's why we always patrolled in pairs. I should also point out I was Military Police, so we had far more tactical/combat training than the average city cop.

                    If the situation had been real my sup would have been running for the exit while radioing for backup. Once outside we would have had the entire building perimeter locked down while we waited for EST. Response time for a real call up on our base was ~2 minutes for patrol. We never had an EST call up so I never knew their response times but all of us all knew how to perform that function and were regularly trained on it every few weeks so it would likely be ~5 minutes or so.

                    [–]Cpt_Tsundere_Sharks 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                    Ahh. Well you know what they say about the difference between MP and police is: When you're an MP, every suspect is a trained killer.

                    [–]syncom_industrial 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    Fucking sad that we shoot people less than city cops...

                    コメントをもっと表示する (10 返事)

                      [–]rainzer 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      There's a bigger problem here that all it takes for your door to be broken down and armed gunmen bursting through it with flashbangs and full-autos is a fucking phone call.

                      It's easy to argue this from a swatting "prank" point of view, but there's always the other side from legitimately reporting an active situation.

                      There's plenty of people shitting on the Orlando police over their handling of the nightclub shooting and not bursting in to save people and instead trying to secure the area.

                      What if you're one of the people inside and not just watching videos of people being swatted? Prefer the SWAT team to be sitting outside while you dodge bullets to make sure it's not a prank?

                      [–]IShotJohnLennon 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      Don't forget that your dog is pretty much automatically dead in this type of situation.

                      I wonder how many dogs live through SWAT raids. I'd love for someone to tell me I'm mistaken and that most dogs actually don't get put down.....please?

                      [–]throwitupwatchitfall 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      :(

                      Also YOU are automatically dead if, like your dog, you just think they're armed strangers breaking into your house and you grab your gun.

                      What do you think SWAT is gonna do when they see a man with a gun pointed at them?

                      [–]wambo37 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

                      When its a false accusation the one who made that simple phone call will ussually get in trouble though

                      [–]bedintruder 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      True, but unfortunately in 99% of swatting cases, police either have no idea who made the call, or can't touch them because they are in another country.

                      [–]Speaks_Iambically 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

                      Not true, at least not all the time. A lot of people who make these phone calls are calling internationally. There's literally nothing the police can do to them.

                      [–]wambo37 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      True, I didnt think of that. Although since american laws dont apply to people who call internationally, you would think they arent obligated to SWAT the person unless someone calls from inside

                      [–]Etherius 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      If something is reported as an active situation, we can't afford to force LE to get warrants and such.

                      It's the people making the phony phone calls that we have to go after.

                      [–]firstpageguy 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      We need some moderate SWAT capacity for like hostage situations and stuff, but it's gone bananas lately.

                      [–]fullforce098 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Not really a bandwagon. Calling it a bandwagon implies people are only doing it cause everyone else is and it's the new popular thing to do. Keemstar is objectively awful and has been for a long time, this is only further proof of it.

                      [–]wrasP3masTE8 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      I don't blame the no-knock raids. Swatters will call the cops and say somebody armed is taking hostages and shit. Get them real riled up. The police think they are going into some big time shit and are armed appropriately.

                      No knock raids when responding to warrants is bullshit though. Soft knock is much preferred even in Afghanistan in my experience. Knock on the door. Step outside please we want to talk to you. We have a warrant. Often they'll open up and cooperate if you treat them respectfully.

                      [–]GFandango 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      all it takes for your door to be broken down and armed gunmen bursting through it with flashbangs and full-autos is a fucking phone call

                      It's like ordering a pizza instead you order some SWAT.

                      [–]frizzykid 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      the situations which bring in swat and these types of scenarios where they break down your doors are super fucking severe. Like reports that you are holding multiple people hostage or you are building a bomb or something.

                      In this case, I think that swat should 100% be able to just go straight in and kill with reasonable cause (someone has a gun and is pointing it at them or at another individual, they are charging at them, etc) because having to wait for a warrant could mean costing quite a few lives of innocent people.

                      [–]smashinMIDGETS 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      Yep, and I have two big dogs. A Boxer and an American Bulldog that would never hurt a fly, but if the front door smashed of course they'd be running and barking their fool heads off.

                      So I'd be out the property damage, and my two dogs would be killed in "defense" by the police because of one phone call by somebody. That's the shit of nightmares.

                      [–]throwitupwatchitfall 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      That's fucked up man. Also you would be dead if you had a gun and thought the SWAT were armed robbers or similar.

                      [–]halosldr 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      And I bet you are one of the first people who will scream that the cops did nothing when they don't respond to a call like they should and someone shoots a bunch of hostages. I work tactical EMS as a paramedic and work besides SWAT and other County Sheriff departments, they don't just go in shooting everything they see move. They are trained professionals, why do you think they use the flash bangs and move so quick....so they can get to the enemy before they even have a chance to react and they dont have to put a bullet in him.

                      [–]SpeedyVT 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      People abusing the use of police force does not mean that police force isn't needed. We need have information and data filtered. We need insure a positive claim has been made.

                      [–]JaapHoop 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      They did knock though...

                      [–]ShaveIceBaby 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      LiveLeak Link: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9fe_1438524693

                      Same footage different incident

                      For clarity I still think keemstar is a piece of shit

                      [–]lordcheeto 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      The real problem is our broken caller ID system that allows spoofing calls like this. Also, I don't think there have been any injuries or fatalities yet resulting from swatting. I don't want to downplay the seriousness of swatting, only remarking on how well-trained our swat teams are.

                      [–]syncom_industrial 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      I 100% agree that SWAT is being overused. It's basically the drone strike of the civilian world. But we don't need to ban no-knock raids, we need to tighten when they can be utilized and better train police. It's knee-jerk reactions and loose policies that allow swatting to occur, get rid of those and it stops.

                      If we're looking for something to blame I'm sure that the tools that allow anonymous reporting could also be blamed, but nobody seems to go after that particular beast of an argument.

                      [–]penisinthepeanutbttr 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      "How do you know when you're solely relying on an anonymous tip?"

                      Would you honestly justify taking that chance if someone's life is potentially in danger? These are highly trained professionals that are able to think on their feet and predict the enemies thought process, I think they're more than equipped mentally and physically to handle and adapt to both a real situation and a false alarm set in place by a fucking dumbass 35 year old YouTuber.

                      [–]throwitupwatchitfall 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      I'm not concerned about the competency of the officers to conduct the raid. I'm concerned about individual rights, you bootlicker.

                      [–]jbende95 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      I'm if you watched the video, but they knocked. And if I was a hostage that got to make 1 phone call, I would fucking hope they sent the Calvary.

                      [–]Jamm1n 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      No knock is fine. It's purpose is to save lifes. People who abuse the system by making fake reports should be prosecuted, and if malicious intent is proven they should go to jail.

                      It would mean investing resources into finding the caller but I bet after the first few people go to jail this bullshit would stop.

                      [–]Pointwest418 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      This isn't a no knock raid since the phone call described it as an active shooter, so they went in immediately and didn't need a warrant to enter the house.

                      The nature of "Swatting" is to call the police and say that an event (hostage, shooting, etc) is happening at an address of the victim, which calls for immediate police intervention without a warrant.

                      [–]sworeiwouldntjoin 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      "What if it's a real situation?"

                      That's why;

                      • You have been extensively trained, and

                      • signed up to risk your life as an officer of the law

                      Mitigating risk to officers shouldn't outweigh stripping away the ability to know if someone who just smashed through your door is an intruder. That's a very important thing that everyone who lives somewhere should be able to easily determine.

                      So if the element of surprise is that much of a game-changer for SWAT teams, maybe they should look into other methods of announcing their presence and status as LEO to mitigate risks to the innocent, who did not sign up to risk their lives, instead of defaulting to what is probably the worst option.

                      [–]Arntor1184 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      I understand how shitty the situation is, but try to look at it from the view of the law enforcement. If the SWAT team is out then that means there is a reliable threat on the lives of innocent people. The SWAT team is a last resort effort that is meant to at least stop most of the loss of life in extreme situations. These officers are being told that there is a madman inside with hostages who is either threatening to kill them or has begun killing them. They don't know that this is a prank so to them this is a situation of life and death where their actions will either save lives or cost lives. They don't have the luxury to knock and announce that it's just the local SWAT because doing that in a situation as tense as they get called to would cost an innocent life guaranteed.

                      [–]icasaracht 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      i don't have an opinion here, but wanted to share what i've heard before.

                      i've seen a video of a small streamer talking about when he was swatted, but i can't seem to find it. in many cases, it's not simply "an anonymous tip" where the police are overreacting. if you give out your real name while being a streamer, you then have some publicly available information. the person doing the swatting confirmed some personal information about the streamer, told the police (as if they were the streamer) that they were going to shoot their family (married with 2 kids) and kill any police that try to stop him. he had recently moved, so the local police didn't have his phone number on file.

                      even a more reasonable country's police force isn't going to be able to take that lightly.

                      [–]jjr51802 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      No knock raids give a huge advantage to the swat teams in a real situation. Is it really worth risking multiple lives because the rare incidents of swatting?

                      [–]Fat__Tire 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      . There's a bigger problem here that all it takes for your door to be broken down and armed gunmen bursting through it

                      No, the real problem is children and immature "adults" who don't know how to behave. Probably caused by parents who don't know how to filter, monitor and limit their children's internet access.

                      [–]2gudfou 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      I mean we have a death penalty that has killed innocent people too, I just think no one cares because they haven't been in that situation and would want a no knock raid if they were being held hostage and managed to call 911. When people hear about a few deaths they just don't care that much. Not my views, just what I think are most people's views

                      [–]hacksbeenjamin 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      In all fairness, they totally did knock. lol

                      [–]AirmanAmerica [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                      Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't police still announce they are the police after entering? If not, it would make a lot more sense if they did, so as to avoid things like this.

                      [–]Puddz [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                      I mean in the video they do knock. Quite loudly. Yelling "Police department, police department. Search warrant"

                      If you then pick up a gun and have it pointed towards them after that, you're sort of bringing it on yourself.

                      Even if they don't do that, you could just be in a room, hear all this commotion and just shout "I have a gun, who are you". Pretty sure that would solve up the issue.

                      [–]Noblesseux [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                      I feel like some of this could be solved if an when we get better thermal imaging technology, IMO. You could then peer through and get a general idea of how people are positioned, and where they are positioned, so you know how to react upon entering the premises. Future solution, but I have faith in science.

                      [–]Morning_Star_Ritual [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                      Police forces need to adapt. They need to have some officers in their force that are kept up to speed with the online world as it is very obvious that certain actions have real world consequences, like swatting. Remember that drunk driving Periscoper and how the dept didn't know what Periscope was?

                      If a call comes in and someone is screaming that there is a person in their home taking someone hostage perhaps they could have someone else call them back quickly on another line? The officer could say we need someone to call you, but stay on the line, this is just to quickly confirm this call--but still have the process move forward? This would take maybe 3 minutes? Maybe not practical, but something could be done to try to help bring an end to swatting.

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