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So an introduction. Yellowface is when a white person makes himself or herself look Asian. Examples are: Fake Asian and Fake Asian Jim Sturgess
So that's them in yellow face. The second guy is playing a Korean guy. Now's here a picture of an actual Korean guy. an actual Asian guy. Actual Asian Guy
As a person of Asian descent, the people in the first two links look like aliens to me. There's something off, especially the first link where the character looks like he has some kind of facial deformity. They don't look Asian in any way, shape or form. However, to non-Asians, maybe they do.
Now onto role playing. This is what's happening:
-White people are taking East Asian celebrities and role playing as them while ignoring anything that made them Asian
-White people are taking East Asian female celebrities for the sole purpose of creating a white male, Asian female relationship in the role play. The white male and Asian females characters are 9/10 times both white females. Although there have been times when it's a white guy role playing as an Asian female and those ones are easy to pick out.
It is digital yellowface but instead of looking like an Asian person, they're pretending to be Asian using the picture of an Asian person (Korean, Japanese or Chinese).
So the things up for debate are (and I encourage everyone to respond to this. There's no right answers. There's no wrong answers):
-Do you think this practice devalues actual POC's feelings and opinions (when they do speak about this) that come onto websites and role play?
-Do you think an Asian person would be able to role play an Asian character better than a White person? Why?
-Do you think a White person would be able to role play an Asian character better than an Asian person? Why?
-Do you think when an a White person role plays an actual Asian character, they subconsciously play to stereotypes that they've seen on TV or the movies or media in general?
-Do you think people are benefiting from playing Asian females when they're not actually Asian?
-Why do you think people pretend to be Asians when they only know about the culture from what they see in media or hear from their friends?
-Should people give their characters names that are "race-appropriate" IF they don't have a logical background? Like for example, if there was a Chinese female character with the name Hazel and a middle name of "Yeung" but the last name Cobbs, do you think it's appropriate? *Just a note, Chinese people do not have middle names.
-Do you think white characters that are half-Asian actually look half-Asian?
-It's just a role play. It's not real. Do you think that's a good argument?
-Do you think it's offensive to POC?
-Do you think this affects how Asians are perceived in real life?
You don't have to answer to everything but those are some starting points.
I'm not East Asian, but I am a POC (South American Indigenous), so... I guess I can come at this from that angle. Both races are subjected to a weird fetish 'exoticism' bullshit from men of a lot of races, not just white, with East Asian women being cast as like... the submissive giggly 'anime' girl and Latina women being cast as the flirtatious, bosomy, fiery chick who is almost always loose. They're both extremely offensive caricatures of these women and... people definitely need to be careful with letting these types of stereotypes seep into their roleplays.
I personally don't consider people of different races roleplaying (NOTE: writing) different races as black, brown, or yellow face. When I write a character, I'm not pretending to be that character. I'm writing a character. JK Rowling wasn't pretending to be Harry Potter. CS Lewis wasn't pretending to be a talking lion. You're writing a character that is apart of a story. I guess there are people that engage in self-inserts, but I guess you'd have to get their opinion. However, there are concerns when all you apply to a character is their race and all you know about that race is caricatures. I'm of a mind that a well-written character, with a full personality, with a rich history, with a dynamic plot, is the BEST way to write any character, regardless of race.
So if you can't write a -insert race here- person without constantly focusing on their race as a source for plots, as the only thing that matters about that person, then you shouldn't be writing them, regardless of the writer's race. People are so much more than their race, their sexualities, their religion, their nationalities. To insinuate that there's a 'right' way for a race to behave is... more than a little offensive. Be respectful of cultural differences (such as many East Asians not employing middle names), be respectful of the faces you cast (the 'interchangeable Asians' phenom that happens), and just write a person.
That's all I want. For people to write people, flaws and perfections, dreams and failures; a person.
As for the white person cast as a half Asian person... why not just cast a half Asian actor or model? As for the look part... a lot of half Asian folks don't look what we would typically expect an East Asian person to look like. Chloe Bennet and Katrina Law come to mind. That doesn't erase the fact that they are half-Asian. I still would not be comfortable with allowing someone to cast a white actor with no Asian heritage as someone who does.
There will always be bad taste in roleplay, there is legitimately no getting around it. We have the MarySue's and GaryStu's occasionally run rampant and if this is what your debate is based off, I'm sorry you've experienced that.
However, I would not consider that it's offensive for a non-(insert race here) to play a (insert any race here) as long as the character is genuine. Even if they don't fit the mold of the society they "come from" 100%. Research is a fickle thing, sometimes you get great information, sometimes you don't. To me, that's like saying an Asian person playing a white person is offensive, because they can't know our culture explicitly. In this, I agree with Tina--the author is not pretending to be the face claim in any way. They are not pretending to be from the culture, they are writing. And a lot of that is exploring things you don't know, maybe that includes Asians, maybe that includes Africans, maybe that includes (insert controversial race, religion, anything here).
I will not pretend to be completely informed in other cultures, but I can appreciate beauty and aesthetic wherever I find it and there are Asian face claims I absolutely adore, and do use. I prefer to take them out of their OOC setting, have them raised some place else by some plot twist so I don't necessarily reference a culture I know nothing about. But that doesn't make that character any less 'Asian'.
Are there people who will get too excited about a face claim they like and just jump in without really thinking about setting or history? Yes, likely, and I'm probably guilty of this myself when I first discovered K-pop. Hell, if I only played 'what I am', I'd be a boring white girl from Nevada (and not even Vegas, like podunk Nevada where they say 'hitch in my giddy-up', ride piece-built-Harleys (Harley guts), and go on biker-gang runs to the local Sonic for a malt) and that's not the purpose of roleplay.
I'm Chinese, so I can only speak from that perspective. I don't play too many Chinese characters, though that's a product of mostly being on fantasy boards where there is no China or China equivalent. In general, I don't mind other people writing Chinese characters because it's their game and enjoyment. As with anything in roleplay, research, research, research. I only get offended by white people playing Chinese characters is when there are glaring mistakes that could have been avoided with two seconds of Google.
I agree with Tina Belcher in that people should be writing a person first and not a caricature or stereotype of that race. If there's a white male/Asian female ship that is focused on the male getting the "exotic beauty", that's a problem for me. Those characters are only together because of her race and not because there's actual chemistry between them. If there are two characters who get along really well and it makes sense for them to be a couple, then I don't really care if one character is Asian.
As for Asians being better at writing Asians, I think that's true to an extent. As a Chinese person, it's easier for me to understand what it is to be Chinese and get that across in writing. However, Chinese culture isn't interchangeable with, for example, Japanese or Korean culture. I've seen white people write excellent Chinese characters with lots of research. Maybe there are a couple small cultural nuances missing, but all the important stuff is correct and handled respectfully. For admins, I would truly hope that my opinion would hold weight if I complained about how another member handled a Chinese character. Roleplaying can perpetuate offensive stereotypes which are acquired from media portrayal. As a member, if someone of that race complained about how I was portraying the character, I would be open to change and feedback.
Regarding play-bys, I'd prefer to see people actually use someone of that race. Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese look different. The Internet is huge, and it's not too hard to find a suitable play-by of the correct race. For Chinese in particular, there's incredible variety. I do not look like the typical Chinese person because I'm from northern China and most of the immigrants in my area are from southern China. There's even more variety for half-Chinese people. I'd prefer to see people use play-bys with Asian ancestry for Asian characters even if it takes a little more digging than white actors. There are plenty of great resources out there.
In closing, the biggest things for white roleplayers with Asian characters to remember is to do research and be respectful. If possible, get to know the local Asian community and be open to a different culture. Cast appropriate play-bys, and don't perpetuate stereotypes.
"White people are taking East Asian celebrities and role playing as them while ignoring anything that made them Asian"
Literally the only thing that makes them ethnically Korean/Chines/Japanese/Any other 'brand' of "Asian" is their appearance. There are all sorts of reasons why a character might not have the cultural attributes associated with their ethnicity; while ignorance is unfortunately one of them, it's unfair to assume that everyone who doesn't play their Asian character "Asian enough" is ignorant/that all Asians must conform to X framework.
That said, if you're playing an Asian character, use a goddamn Asian PB. a character from an Asian country, use a PB with the same ancestry. Japanese =/= Chinese =/= Korean =/= Thai =/= Vietnamese.
"Do you think people are benefiting from playing Asian females when they're not actually Asian?"
No? Can you benefit from playing a certain type of character? What are even the 'benefits' you can garner in the RP world? IS SOMEONE SECRETLY PAYING FOR FORUM ROLEPLAY AND I AM ONLY JUST FINDING OUT?
Do you think a White person would be able to role play an Asian character better than an Asian person? Why?
That depends on a lot of factors. A Taiwanese person who has never left Asia probably couldn't roleplay a Taiwanese person adopted as a baby by a Catholic family in America nearly as well as an American or even just a Catholic, at least without a fair amount of research. Ethnicity only gives you a writing...bonus? If your cultural experiences have been similar, and often only in boards with a strong RL influence.
Do you think this affects how Asians are perceived in real life?
I think there are lots of online subsets (mostly anything 18+) and media references that do far more in forming an Asian stereotype than roleplay, and I think as a whole the roleplaying community tends to be more socially aware than a lot of other groups.
I'm kind of confused about the OP, to be honest. Am I being asked whether or not people should WRITE characters who are Asian when they personally are not, or am I being asked if people who aren't Asian should be allowed to pretend they are? The wording could be either, but the latter is something I don't think I've ever seen without other compounding issues so.... I'll address the former?
As far as I'm concerned, I don't write Asians or Caucasians or Africans or any other wide demographic, I just write people. They have wants, desires, fears, strengths, weaknesses, like everyone else. I'm not playing their race as a major part of them, because race is a shaping factor, not the only part of them.
I certainly don't think there should ever be cause to tell people to only play what they are, as far as I'm concerned that would negate the entire point of role-playing. We want to explore the unknown, imagine it, create a sort of alternate world where such things can be experienced.
I don't think playing any type of character matters if they're being played correctly - respectfully. That's all that matters to me, not what they are in real life. & I certainly don't call that yellowface of any kind, or erasure, or appropriation. As long as you're not fetishizing, caricature writing, offensively stereotyping, or actually falsely pretending to be the race your character is to justify any of the former...i don't really care.
Speaking as a person of East Asian descent, I'm hesitant to apply the term 'yellowface' liberally. I consider it cultural appropriation when I see Asian characters being played as caricatures, but when I see people using Asian pbs for supposedly 'non-Asian' characters, it doesn't bother me. Granted, I usually write in non-real-life settings, but I don't see a problem with an Asian pb character being named Jane Doe. Maybe they got their name legally changed. Maybe they were adopted. Who knows??? It all depends on the character. Just because a person plays a character of another race doesn't always mean they're participating in cultural appropriation. If you turn that argument around, you can say that I appropriate non-Asian cultures (actually, all other cultures except American and Korean) because I use playbys from said cultures, and that's certainly not the case.
ALSO very important to note (and something that's already been mentioned), lumping people of Asian descent / appearance into one big 'Asian culture' category is in itself pretty damaging. My life experience as a first-generation Korean-American immigrant is different from my best friend's experience as a Thai-American born and raised in the States, which is completely different from my friend's experience as a Chinese international student. But we're all Asians! Is there any one way to accurately portray all three of us?
My point being, unless the character panders to obvious mass-media stereotypes of Asians, I don't think I am qualified to say that the character is 'wrong', just because they don't fit into what I think is a correctly portrayed Asian character. (whatever the hell that's supposed to be, tbh) Personally I don't consider roleplaying to be 'pretending', rather just 'writing', so it usually doesn't faze me when I see Asian pbs being used. I'm actually happy because then maybe I can also use POC pbs without being afraid that my character won't have threading opportunities.
@Tina Belcher, your voice is as valid anyone else's so go ahead. I agree that it's a little offensive to insinuate there's a right way for a race to behave. In fact, I think it's very offensive and very disrespectful. It shows that you're thinking about people based on what they look like and with pre-conceived views, not what they are as a person. Not a very respectful way to treat people. And yes to the fetishes. Sometimes it gets interesting whereby the Asian female characters are actually very strong mentally and emotionally but then suddenly bam, they become "submissive" when it comes to the white male character and only the white male character. Don't know about how Latina female characters are treated but from you're saying, it's not any better. There's no Latinas where I live so the closest I've gotten is Gloria from Modern Family. Where I differ in thinking here (to you and I think almost everyone else) is in regards to perceptions of role playing so let me try to explain what I'm thinking here. Yes, you are writing the character but at the same time, you're also pretending to be that character because you are interacting with other role players' characters on the site at the same time. You are playing that character according to his/her thoughts/feelings/emotions when you post replies. You are pretending to be that character for the duration of the time that you're role playing on that role play site. So that's where I'm coming from.
As for authors, they're not interacting with other people and actually role playing with others. Generally, they do not get online and pretend to be another person of another race and interact with other people while assuming that character. That's why I call it digital yellowface. Because it's online and instead of applying make-up/whatever they're just taking an image and then using that image as what they look like when they're role playing on the site. Authors are making an entire world by themselves. Of course C.S Lewis isn't actually a lion. Of course J.K Rowling isn't Harry Potter. And yes, they're writing a character as part of a story but they're not taking a celebrity/model/actress/actor and role playing them online.
@Delphi: Gary Stus/Mary Sues have nothing to do the topic. No idea how you managed to come to that conclusion as I didn't mention anything about Gary Stus/Mary Sues. That's another topic altogether but it's not relevant to what the topic is about. Please don't jump to conclusions.
@Bommie and Serion: Absolutely agree with Bommie in most of what you say. Your experience would be different from other Asian-Americans yes. For one thing, Japanese-Americans were put in internment camps even though they had nothing to do with
Spoiler Pearl Harbour
. They were taken from their homes and put behind barbed wire with guards watching them day a and night. They would get shot if they tried to escape. There were anti-Chinese laws and at one point in history, there was a wholesale lynching of Chinese people in LA by
Spoiler a mob of 500 white men
in the 1800s. That's just the past. In my country, it's actually not so bad. I mean, people still treat us as human at least. But the racism's still there.
And not even counting just in America but certainly, different from British-Asians (praying for you guys over there), from Canadian-Asians, from Australian-Asians, from ones born in New Zealand. You would not have the same experience as an immigrant Indian living in America. I don't like it when people lump all Asians together as well and I don't think there's one way to accurately portray you and your friends. An international student especially, will be completely different from those that have been born and raised in America. It is damaging to lump all Asian cultures into one but most non-Asians, well in my experience, they have trouble differentiating so that's why I put Asian because it's understood better. I know the Asians here know the difference. And yes, when an Asian character has been adopted by a white family then having a name like Jane Doe makes sense. What I want to point out about what you aid about cultural appropriation, a person does not equal culture. A person can be part of a culture. And I'll clarify something. My apologies because I understand how this could have been unclear.
Pretending to be Asian=referring to appearance here.
Ignoring anything that made them Asian=referring to culture, traditions, upbringing, language, food, history, societal norms and expectations
I honestly don't know what you're arguing about here or what you're trying to say. It's more a matter of respect and accuracy in regards to portrayal. My question to you is this. Why are you scared that you won't have threading opportunities because you play a POC character? Doesn't that speak more about the site itself if people won't rp with you simply because your character's a POC? Why would you need permission to use a POC play-by?
Serion, I understand your frustrations. I actually agree with you there on all counts. Chinese is not Korean is not Japanese. All those cultures are different from one another. While they do share some similarities, there are many, many more differences that all you have to do, is research to figure out. Unfortunately, I haven't seen any of these excellent Chinese characters you're talking about. Maybe I'm on the wrong sites lol. Btw, have these stereotypes affected you? If you live in Western country. I don't know if you do or not. And I agree with what you're saying about people using suitable play-bys of someone of that race. It's not hard to find a Japanese play-by (male or female) to give to a Japanese character or a Chinese play-by(male/female) to give to a Chinese character. And for half-Asians, same deal.
@Tina Belcher, this goes into what you were saying. Half-Asians do not look like East Asians because they're not. They also don't look white. Chloe Bennet is a good example. Her father is Chinese and her mother is Jewish. She does not look white. Kristina Law I do not know but from a google search she definitely does not look full Asian. To @Serion and @Bommie, if you had a character that is written as Chinese but has a name like Wendy Hobbs, is a Japanese actress/celebrity and has nothing in the history that stated that they were adopted then would you be comfortable with this? I wouldn't be but I'd try to help this person out with their character (if I was ethnically close) if they were actually open to it. But that's just me.
@Clipsed: Few interesting things to say in response here. Your first and third point. Perhaps I should've made the meaning more clear. I do not mean the appearance. When I say ignoring anything that made them Asian I'm talking about generally, culture, food, upbringing, language, societal norms. In your third point, you've mentioned a Taiwanese person who has never left Asia could not role play an adopted Taiwanese by a Catholic family in America. So then, my follow-up question is, could a white person role play an adopted Taiwanese by a Catholic family in America? Could they role play what a Taiwanese person feels growing up looking like an Asian kid but feeling like a white kid on the inside? Could they role play being on the receiving end of racism (not the violent kind but the kind where people assume you can't speak English, you must know how to speak X language because you look -insert Asian ethnicity here- and getting weird looks/or confused looks when they can't actually speak that language, could they role play the feeling of belonging to a country but not belonging at the same time?)? Have you had a similar cultural experience to an Asian person that has been adopted by a white family when this person was a baby and grown up around people (white people in this case) who look different to you in every way but yet you feel like you are white even though your black hair, your non-white skin and your brown eyes and your other features say otherwise?
You also raised a point that playing an Asian female character will give you a writing bonus. There's a ? at the end of that so I'm going to take that as you're not sure what you're saying which is fine. But let's dig deeper. Ethnicity giving you a writing bonus implies that you see ethnicity as some kind of reward or a trophy and you will get extra street cred in some way in game for playing an Asian female character as opposed to playing a white female character. It's insulting to me because my ethnicity is not a currency you can trade and exchange in order to get bonuses. And neither are any of my female family members. Now, this is what I mean by the third question (not monetary benefit). By getting "writing bonus" is benefiting from playing an Asian female character. You are getting this street cred solely on your character's race instead of skill. There's something very wrong there when your worth is dependent on your race instead of your skills. That's one example.
To those who said about Asians playing white characters, this topic is not Asian people role playing as White people. Please don't try to derail from the topic. However, since it has been raised I'll try best to address it this one time. The thing with Asian people playing white characters, is that most of the time, in my experience they take effort to make them 3-dimensional and they're varied so that's why I personally don't see an issue there. In fact, I've done it before but it's only because the majority of characters were white on the website. Whereas most of the time white people role playing Asians, well they don't seem to have any depth beyond love interest for white guy or as the token member of a majority white group and they make a lot of mistakes. It can be from the way they name their characters (jamming together a bunch of Chinese names and calling it Chinese when the names do not make sense even to a Chinese person), to something that strikes me as odd in the character's history, to even their abilities and when it comes to actual role playing, how they interact with another POC character and what their reaction is when they actually role play with an actual Asian that's the same race as their play by.
Hope I've addressed everyone. There were a lot of great points in here that I'm not sure I covered all of them. You guys came up with some very interesting stuff. Was very pleased with your answers and your honesty. Keep on going.
(07-01-2016, 07:58 AM)Wiseanator Wrote: Yes, you are writing the character but at the same time, you're also pretending to be that character because you are interacting with other role players' characters on the site at the same time. You are playing that character according to his/her thoughts/feelings/emotions when you post replies. You are pretending to be that character for the duration of the time that you're role playing on that role play site. So that's where I'm coming from.
..... As for authors, they're not interacting with other people and actually role playing with others. Generally, they do not get online and pretend to be another person of another race and interact with other people while assuming that character. That's why I call it digital yellowface.
Again, no. I'm not pretending to be my character. I have created a character from my imagination, gave them a personality, a history, sometimes they even have pre-established relationships. The fact that roleplaying is interactive and writing a solo novel isn't doesn't change the way authors and roleplayers come at their characters. Whether you created the world you're writing in yourself or it was created for you, you're writing a character that's separate from who you are. I'm not pretending to be these characters. Crawling inside a character's head to understand their motivations and how they move around the world isn't pretending to be them. It's writing a character. The fact that people like to explore different worlds, different peoples, different religious, different sexualities through writing doesn't mean they are pretending to be those people. They're writing a character and learning. It's almost like... a literal third person experience. At least... it should be. When you approach roleplaying in a healthy way anyways.
(07-01-2016, 07:58 AM)Wiseanator Wrote: Because it's online and instead of applying make-up/whatever they're just taking an image and then using that image as what they look like when they're role playing on the site. Authors are making an entire world by themselves. Of course C.S Lewis isn't actually a lion. Of course J.K Rowling isn't Harry Potter. And yes, they're writing a character as part of a story but they're not taking a celebrity/model/actress/actor and role playing them online.
The image is a reference of appearance in lieu of a written description of the character. Both are easily interchangeable, both are personal preferences. No one is claiming they ARE the faces they choose for their characters. It's literally just 'I don't feel like writing five paragraphs worth of physical description, so here is a picture of what I imagine they sort of look like?' No one is saying 'I am this character and this is how I look like when I play this character.'
I think because we call it 'roleplaying', it might be confused for acting or 'pretending' or something, but no. It's interactive writing. I have never inserted myself into my roleplaying in the way that you seem to be describing it. And maybe that's why there's a bit of confusion here. No one is pretending they're Asian --- they're simply writing an Asian character. And if that character were to be made into a movie, an Asian person would be cast to play that character, not the race of the writer. Can the race of the writer have a negative effect on the way that character is written? Oh, yeah, definitely. Cultural misunderstandings happen, sometimes innocent, sometimes malicious, stereotypes happen, etc. And people can spot that kind of thing from a mile away. But I would never discourage a person from trying, and trying their best, just because one moron done fucked it up. Learn from their mistake and be better.
That's why I call it digital yellowface. Because it's online and instead of applying make-up/whatever they're just taking an image and then using that image as what they look like when they're role playing on the site.
They're not though. I don't know about you, but I currently play more than forty characters. They're of varying ethnicity, cultural backgrounds, genders, and sexualities. Would you accuse someone playing a black character as putting on "digital blackface"?
You also raised a point that playing an Asian female character will give you a writing bonus.
Actually no. I said there's only a "bonus" to the ease of writing if its a character with similar experiences to your own and the setting of the board makes those experiences relevant. Science fiction and fantasy settings in particular quickly negate any such 'bonus', perceived or otherwise.
When I say ignoring anything that made them Asian I'm talking about generally, culture, food, upbringing, language, societal norms.
Except with my adoptee example, they would not have these. They may still have stereotyping/racism to deal with as you pointed out, but the rest of the above would be tied to the culture in which they were raised. Why is this a bad thing?
So then, my follow-up question is, could a white person role play an adopted Taiwanese by a Catholic family in America? Could they role play what a Taiwanese person feels growing up looking like an Asian kid but feeling like a white kid on the inside? Could they role play being on the receiving end of racism (not the violent kind but the kind where people assume you can't speak English, you must know how to speak X language because you look -insert Asian ethnicity here- and getting weird looks/or confused looks when they can't actually speak that language, could they role play the feeling of belonging to a country but not belonging at the same time?)?
Could a Taiwanese person who's never left Taiwan? The American-born 'writer' would automatically have a leg up on the culture and would have to research/delve deeper for the racism side of things, but the Taiwanese person would have to work at both elements.
I think that every character I write has at least a little bit of me in them or else I couldn't write them at all. Some characters are easy for me to write because they have a lot more of me in them; others require some research in order to do any semblance of justice, and others still are a bit of a struggle because they're very far removed from me. Am I automatically not able to write a werewolf well because I'm not a werewolf myself? A white character well because my father is black? A black character well because my mother is white? A man well because I'm a cis-female? A parent well because I've not started a family yet?
I get that the expression is "write what you know", but why should your writing stop there?
The thing with Asian people playing white characters, is that most of the time, in my experience they take effort to make them 3-dimensional and they're varied so that's why I personally don't see an issue there.
"Only Asians should play Asians because white people are too lazy but Asians are totally not lazy and so can play characters of any race no questions asked."