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Switzerland denies citizenship to Muslim immigrant girls who refused to swim with boys: report (washingtontimes.com)

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[–]Tsegen 10ポイント11ポイント  (17子コメント)

Funny how they say "unlike America" when America seems to do best when it comes to integrating immigrants, especially considering its size.

[–]zoueva 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

And that line was specifically addressing requirements to citizenship. We do not have assimilation expectations in our process, just knowledge.

[–]andro1295 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

It would be difficult and unfair to try to measure assimilation in the US, especially since it's hard to even define what it means to be 'American'. So you abide by the law, earn your money honesty and respect others, but because you're not a blue jeans, baseball cap wearing, country-music listening American you don't deserve to be a citizen?

[–]110011001100 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

For US, I guess it would be the ability to live off of solely salads , or solely fried food for a month

[–]Generic_On_Reddit 13ポイント14ポイント  (10子コメント)

I'm not an expert on this, especially how it is in other countries, and I'm not sure how we're measuring integration, but I don't necessarily agree with this.

In my experience, America is well known for immigrants isolating themselves within their own communities. Many of our larger cities have a Chinatown. And all over the United States you'll find similar isolated Mexican neighborhoods in cities of various sizing. They live within these neighborhoods to prevent having to adapt to the different land, only having to interact with those of similar origin, speaking the same language, etc. Even many of the businesses in the area will not be in English, and (in my experiences) the clerks/employees don't necessarily know English.

This isn't true integration. They just create smaller versions of their country of origin within America. As the person above said, "Cannot blend with the community? Then get out." Evident by these communities existence, blending with the American community is entirely optional. Live within them and you'll never have to integrate in basically any way.

Mind you, I'm not condemning the existence of these communities, I'm just saying I'm not sure how great we are with integrating immigrants. If you don't go to these places, or don't know where they are closest to where you live, I understand how one could think we're excellent at integration, but these places are everywhere.

[–]ThePodThatWasPromisd 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

This tends to be largely due to economics rather than a fear or aversion to integration. If you're a poor immigrant you have a limited number of places you can go to, and chances are you know somebody in one of the locations so you move there. This happens until a community of people coming from similar situations end up in the same place, and carry their culture with them.

This is also one of the reasons us Americans like to tell others what "nationality" we are based on our parents', grandparents', great-grandparents' country of origin. For most immigrants their original country determined what community they would end up in, and that culture remained an important part of their day to day lives.

Some people may view this self-segregation as a negative, but I think its a really interesting and fun aspect of America.

Edit: just to add, the integration largely comes from the next generations leaking out from these communities as they seek to improve their situations through further education and job opportunities that those first generation immigrants couldn't pursue.

[–]Generic_On_Reddit [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I understand completely. However, I'd also like to note that there is a difference in settling in a neighborhood where there are the most people like you, where you'll have the most economic opportunity as a newcomer, and settling there and never making an attempt to integrate.

As you say, the integration comes from the younger generations that are born and/or raised in America. Which is to say there is little integration among immigrants, but decent integration with their children and/or grandchildren.

But this is where my concern about his claim of us being the best at integrating lies, because we really don't integrate immigrants. They (often) come and live in their isolated communities if able and integrate on their own time, which can take generations if they do at all.

Again, I don't have a problem with the isolated communities. If they want to recreate a slice of home where they can live as they want and speak their language, it's fine with me. I think it can produce cool communities. My comments are completely about the claim to our integration abilities. But again, I'm not an expert on that either.

[–]billybookcase [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Everywhere has Chinatown, they seem to get a pass for some reason. Nobody bothers them and they bother nobody. Very rarely do you hear of any Chinese people complaining about not being able to swim wearing triangle rice farmer hats or traditional dress.

Culturally speaking, Mexican culture is much more similar to general US culture than say Saudi Fundamentalist Islamists. A good part of the US was Mexico for quite some time.

It's true, there are large pockets of these areas, but overall vs. Europe, and having lived in North America integration is much much much more successful.

[–]badoosh123 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I'm just saying I'm not sure how great we are with integrating immigrants. If you don't go to these places, or don't know where they are closest to where you live, I understand how one could think we're excellent at integration, but these places are everywhere.

The Latino population in this country has gone from 2% to 20% over the past 20 years. For reference, I don't think there is a European country that has greater than a 7-8% Muslim demographic. I live in California, it is estimated that by 2030 we will be 50% Latino. It is a miracle in of itself that we haven't gone through drastic reforms/bigotry/xenophobia yet in dealing with the illegal immigrants. Everything has been expedited however because of the recession and people always scapegoat immigrants.

Your point is true that the communities tend to stay to themselves, but one has to concede that I think America has handled it incredibly gracefully. It's not as black and white as you make it out to be, I live in San Diego, and my father moved here in the early 80's when it was predominantly white. The southern half of our city(south of the 8) has literally become essentially a Mexican dominated community. Our main malls all are Mexican dominated. I'm not saying it's good or bad, but people had to give up their neighborhoods to Latin immigration due to economic segregation and yet we aren't voting to control immigration further or anything. A good chunk(seriously like 20-40% of the city) has transitioned from being anglo saxon dominated to Latino dominated and it has all been done incredibly peacefully, people have been ok with it.

I'm not entirely disagreeing with what you are saying, but to say that America doesn't handle the immigration as well when we are getting 2x the amount of immigrants is a little bit of a misnomer imo. It's a lot more nuanced than that.

[–]Tsegen 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

The issue is not enclaves, it's radicalization and places that work by rules that are just completely separate from the general rules society wants to push.

As far as I know, American Muslim minorities are more likely to avoid this. Though some people claim it's cause of the nature of immigrants coming in (American Muslims are supposedly less ethnically homogeneous).

As for other ethnic minorities that form their little enclaves: well, what's it like in a generation or two? I'm willing to bet that, as they want to be socially mobile they'll plug into the general American system. The more of them there are the more likely they are to keep "their" places (though arguably, this is very old and happened with blacks too) but they'll still want to go to American universities, sell stuff to Americans and so on.

[–]Generic_On_Reddit -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure whether they're completely comparable. Like you say, it's much easier for people to stay within their isolated enclaves when there are more of them. (Western) Europe has way more of them, both in terms of raw population and percentage of population. Also, I believe many of them have been there for much longer so any isolated areas have already been established, as opposed to the United States, where few Muslim pockets currently exist.

I used to think it was only for a generation. I went to school with many Mexicans that were from these neighborhoods and they were well adjusted to American life in every discernable way, and they were usually born here.

But then I went to these neighborhoods and their businesses more often and noticed it wasn't just the older generations that didn't speak English. Plenty of the younger generation didn't either. I had only encountered the well adjusted ones because the ones that chose not to integrate were isolated.

It is true, however, that as the generations continue, more and more of them will integrate. However, that was not my point. My point is simply that I'm not sure how good America is at integrating when these places persist.

Again, not saying we aren't best at integrating since I'm not sure how it is in other countries, just that the existence of isolated communities everywhere tells me we aren't that great. And that Europe has been dealing with higher numbers in different time spans in greater concentrations.

[–]Tsegen 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

These are the exact complaints Europeans raise. (Except Muslims, not Mexicans)

Maybe the qualification is right. American Muslims, by dint of being a smaller balkanized group, don't form into ethnically tight enclaves like say...people all from a particular nation with large immigration to the US would.

I dunno.

It's a fair counterpoint.

[–]JohnMiltonJamesJoyce [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

These enclaves are capable of working together and upholding a common sense of values (save for orthodox jewish and muslim areas)

[–]antimatter3009 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

This isn't true integration. They just create smaller versions of their country of origin within America. As the person above said, "Cannot blend with the community? Then get out." Evident by these communities existence, blending with the American community is entirely optional. Live within them and you'll never have to integrate in basically any way.

But what is "true" integration in America, a country built on isolated ethnic communities? By the standard of a place like Switzerland, we have never in our entire history integrated anyone. Our whole immigrant history is one of people showing up on our shores, being allowed in, and then living in ethnic-centered communities. The closest we have ever gotten to any sort of integration is simply having these communities live near each other in relative peace.

And what is "the American community", even? There are Chinatown's that have existed for decades or more. Are they an American community? Which one of the ethnic area in Boston is the American one? The Italian, Irish, Chinese, or some other? Is someone from Seattle not well integrated if they're uncomfortable in the rural south, or vice versa?

I kinda get what you're saying, and I know you're not on the attack here, but to even really discuss integration we have to at least know what that means. In America I really don't know what an "integrated" immigrant looks like vs one that is not, and until we can define the two we can't even really begin to talk about how we do at it. At the most basic I think we can assume that integration does include accepting typical American values like free speech, freedom of religion, and so on, but beyond that I really have no idea. America has never had any semblance of a unified culture to even integrate into, and it's only diversified further as time has gone on.

[–]Qksiu [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Are you denying that in a lot of parts in the US, social groups and communities are virtually segregated on the basis of ethnicity? That there exist black communities at all is crazy, that the economic disparity between black and white is virtually taken for granted. The very existence of "black areas" is a foreign concept to most Europeans even those growing up in multicultural areas.

In much of Europe you tend to get rich areas which are often times white, and then multicultural areas which are entirely mixed. Sure, this means there is still economic disparity between white people and other races in Europe, nobody would claim otherwise. However, in the US you literally see "black area", "hispanic area", "poor white area", and the amount that people are integrated as communities is pathetic. Likewise you have "black schools" and "white schools" and so on.

Americans just don't seem to get the concept of integration.

[–]VortexMagus -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Someone hasn't been paying attention to the Republican platforms lately.

[–]skocznymroczny [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Most of the integration problems lately happen with Muslim people. I think in the US, given the 9/11 and all, Muslims are trying to keep low and are doing their best to blend into the background, because while in Europe they may get hateful comments on the internet, in the US people have actual guns and provoked might hurt someone.