[Everything]Battle of the Bastards Analysis: Context for Non-Historians

lock1473 · 6時間前

Dude....How long did this take you?

-PasswordisTaco- · 2時間前

This was great but could you give a more in-depth analysis when you get a chance? Thanks

Hergrim · 8時間前

Sources and Notes

¹ Game of Thrones: Battle of the Bastards director speaks out

² Agincourt mudbath

³ Realism vs Believability: Why No One Actually Wants Realism in Game of Thrones

⁴ /u/Valkine on "How realistic was the recent Game of Thrones "Battle of the Bastards" scene?

⁵ /u/DBHT14 on Robb's Tactics, /u/Valkine on "How realistic was the recent Game of Thrones "Battle of the Bastards" scene?

⁶ Why a Recent Plotline is Stupid: Wounds and Infections in Game of Thrones and Internal Consistency of the Narrative

⁷ A Storm of Spears (Matthew, 2012, Chapter 1, Section 4), Spear Length Analysis A very quick examination of spear lengths in a number of manuscripts spread over a long period of time, *Anglo-Saxon Weapons & Warfare (Underwood, 2004, p44), How Long was viking spears (Nathan Beal), Spears (Levick and Williamson, 2005)

⁸ Game of Thrones season 5: In defence of the Unsullied

⁹ Agincourt 1415: A New History (Curry, 2005, Chapter 9, Section 2)

¹⁰ Bolton - Stannis army size. How many of Ramsay's menw ere killed during the battle is hard to determine, but Roose and Ramsay have probably been recruiting men in any case within the context of the show.

¹¹ Thus Spake Martin: Historical Influences

¹² War in the Middle Ages (Contamine, 1984, p79-80)

¹³ ibid p82

¹⁴ Arrowstorm (Wadge, 2007, p38)

¹⁵ ibid

¹⁶ The Battle of Crécy, 1346 (Ayton and Preston, 2005, p189)

¹⁷ ibid, p168

¹⁸ The Great Warbow (Strickland and Hardy, 2005, p190)

¹⁹ War in the Middle Ages (Contamine, 1984, p168-169)

²⁰ Thus Spake Martin: The Strength of Regions

²¹ The Histories (Polybius, 3.113-114)

²² ibid, 3.117

²³ War in the Middle Ages (Contamine, 1984, p179-184)

²⁴ The Fall of Carthage: The Punic Wars 265-146BC (Goldsworthy, 2012, Chapter 8, Paragraph 16)

²⁵ [The Reality of Cannae (Samuels, 1990, p17-20)](https://www.academia.edu/3340916/The_reality_of_Cannae]

²⁶ ibid, p11-16

²⁷ De Re Militari (Vegetius, 3.9)

²⁸ The Fall of Carthage: The Punic Wars 265-146BC (Goldsworthy, 2012, Chapter 8, Paragraph 14)

²⁹ [The Reality of Cannae (Samuels, 1990, p23)](https://www.academia.edu/3340916/The_reality_of_Cannae]

³⁰ The Fall of Carthage: The Punic Wars 265-146BC (Goldsworthy, 2012, Chapter 8, Paragraph 13)

³¹ The Histories (Polybius, 3.113)

³² The Maester's Chain, 0:33. We know that Jon has at least one maester, presumably Lady Mormont's, with him, so that maester should have some clue as to tactics and strategy. Jon, as the son of Ned Stark, would have received some training about tactics, and it's probable that that he would have learned about ambushes and how to set them, if only so he could avoid them. As a raider, ambushes should come to Tormund naturally.

³³ "The Battle of Hastings" (R.A. Brown Anglo-Norman Warfare, p174-176)

³⁴ Maurice's Strategikon (tr. George T. Dennis, p27). This advice is echoed in the Praecepta militaria of Emperor Nikephoros II (Sowing the Dragon's Teeth, Eric McGreer, p51).

³⁵ The Alexiad (Anna Komnena, 1.4)

³⁶ The Art of War (Sun Tzu, 6.28)

³⁷ The Battle of Crécy, 1346 (Ayton and Preston, 2005, p176)

³⁸ Maurice's Strategikon (tr. George T. Dennis, p13).

³⁹ Sowing the Dragon's Teeth (Eric McGreer, p37)

⁴⁰ Knights and Warhorses: Military Service and the English Aristocracy Under Edward III (Ayton, 1999, p89-90)

⁴¹ ibid, p100-101

⁴² With all due respect to Matt Easton, the so caled "Stark armour" is not a coat of plates. It is more like an armoured surcoat, such as the one worn by the statue of a sleeping soldier at Wienhausen Monestary, Armour From the Battle of Visby (Thordeman, p289). Despite the black and white photograph appearing to show gaps between the plates, a colour image, the offset nature of each set of plates and the locations of the rivets show that any gap is just a trick of the light and that the plates do in fact overlap at the rear. In contrast, the Northern armoured surcoat has large gaps between each plate and no evidence of overlap. This is particularly egreious with respect to Jon Snow's armour.

⁴³ The Strategemata (Frontinus, 1.7.6), The Epitome of Rome (Florus, 2.8.6. They are probably drawing from the same source.

⁴⁴ The Gallic Wars (Caesar, 2.33)

⁴⁵ The Arms and Armour From Dura-Europos, Syria: Weaponry recoveredfrom the Roman garrison town and the Sassanid siegeworks during the excavations, 1922-37 (James, 1990, unpublished PhD thesis, p236-238, Plates 2.4.AP and 2.4.AQ)

⁴⁶ "The Sworn Sword", A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms (George RR Martin, 2015)

⁴⁷ There are a wide variety of opinions on the durability of wicker shields, with people who have experience with Chinese rattan shields to people who have attempted to reconstruct the shields of the Persians or Assyrians all weighing in. In general it seems that they're sturdier than one would initially believe, but I wasn't able to obtain a copy of The Cutting Edge: Archaeological Studies in Combat and Weaponry (Molloy, 2007), which contains the single scientific test of a hide and wood shield that I'm aware of in time for this article.

⁴⁸ The Art of Warfare in Western Europe During the Middle Ages (Verbruggen, 1997, p61-62)

⁴⁹ Wound Ballistics and Body Armor in Korea (Herget, et. al., 1962, p744)

⁵⁰ Puzikas on the psychology of body armour

⁵¹ The Effectiveness of Greek Armour Against Arrows in the Persian War (490-479): An Interdisciplinary Inquiry (Blyth, 1977, unpublished PhD thesis) suggests that between 30-35 joules of energy would be required for an arrowhead with a maximum width of 15mm to penetrate 5mm of leather. While the Wildlings are unlikely to be wearing any leather that thick, the multiple layers of skins that they wear and the thick woolen clothing they presumably wear under that are likely to provide a similar resistance. The precise energy of the arrows from Ramsay's archers will depend in a large part on the arrow weight and the draw weight of their bows. Tests of Turkish composite bows by Adam Karpowicz suggest that a composite bow with a draw weight of between 135lbs and 140lbs should be able to propell a 70 gram arrow at up to 64 m/s, for a total of 143 joules. Tests by Robert Hardy (The Great Warbow, Strickland and Hardy, 2005, p411) suggest that we can expect a velocity loss of between 13 and 15 m/s at maximum range. Assuming a 14 m/s loss in velocity, the energy of an arrow at maximum range would be 87.5j, so the shields would need to absord 50-55j of energy.

⁵² The Concept of Shame in Late-Medieval English Literature (Flannery, 2012), Shame Culture or Guilt Culture: The Evidence of the French Fabliaux (Eaton, 2000, unpublished PhD thesis)

⁵³ The Book of Deeds of Arms and of Chivalry (Christine de Pizan, tr. Summer Willard, 1999 p53-56), "William the Bastard at War" (Gillingham Anglo-Norman Warfare, p152-155), The Great Warbow, (Strickland and Hardy, 2005, p321-323)

⁵⁴ The True Chronicles of Jean le Bel (tr. Nigel Bryant, 2011, p198-199)

⁵⁵ ibid, p199-200

⁵⁶ ibid, 180-181, 181n

⁵⁷ Charny's Men-at-Arms: Questions Concerning The Joust, Tournaments and War (Muhlberger, 2014, p70-71, 92)

⁵⁸ The True Chronicles of Jean le Bel (tr. Nigel Bryant, 2011, p10-11)

⁵⁹ Game of Thrones: Battle of the Bastards review (17:40-19:00)

⁶⁰ The Art of Warfare in Western Europe During the Middle Ages (Verbruggen, 1997, p89-91)

⁶¹ ibid, 73-75

⁶² ibid, 267

⁶³ ibid

⁶⁴ ibid, 74

⁶⁵ ibid, 94-95

⁶⁶ The Longbow (Loades, 2011, p186)

DinosaurPizza · 3時間前

An impressive amount of effort and research done. These are the type of posts I come to this subreddit for, thank you.

zman122333 · 4時間前

I thought Ramsay was trying to deceive John in the parlay in terms of number of troops. Any reasonably competent military mind would know to protect the number of troops your force actually has (whether you try and over project or under project depends, but the true number is valuable information). Why would Ramsay reveal the true number to John? I'd say he significantly understated his force and probably had more like 8,000 or 10,000 men. I don't have the knowledge of GoT houses to back it up, but based on Ramsay's last battle with Stannis, he had access to many more troops. Maybe he simply didn't call them up and underestimated John, but I doubt that.

HouseofWessex · 5時間前

Superb. Easily one of the best analysis out there..and there has been a ton of analyses by "experts" on it's authenticity. The irony of the battle in my view is that it can so easily be fixed. Instead of Spearmen sneaking up on the wildlings (somehow) instead show a general melee which pins down Jons troops whilst a Pike wall deploys and pushes on the side-as at Cannae. Also removes need for silly body wall-just have a full encirclement.

As for cavalry, I thought they should have done what Stannis will (presumably) do at Longlake in Winds. Jon should challenge Ramsey again, maybe put archers forward, then run. Ramsey now has reason to send cavalry first to catch them..right into trenches and pit traps. This will show Jon being cleaver and not a moron, eliminate Bolton cavalry, and confine fighting to small area so a bodywall (of sorts) can develop.

Also, Jons cavalry should indeed have been hidden. Would have been more dramatic anyway.

OrNaM3nT · 4時間前

Wow this was awesome.

What do you think about the first Siege of Winterfell?

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/gameofthrones/images/a/a5/5x10_Battle_of_Winterfell.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1000?cb=20150616101353

2000 Bolton cavalry against 1500 infantry and half of them are already routing.

Somehow the battle ended up in the woods with Stanis alive,even if he was leading the attack.

LadyManderly · 2時間前

This is quite likely the best post ever made on this subreddit. Naturally you have Stannis the Mannis for your flair.

THANK YOU!

oldbubblehead · 5時間前

Very nice job. I complement you on your research and thoroughness. But as SWBF Central pointed out, GOT is a fantasy world that is not a mirror of our own history. Rarely is authenticity a concern of film makers. Accurate depictions of battles are few and far between. The Battle of Agincourt in Olivier's Henry V and the first thirty minutes of Saving Private Ryan are notable examples of the few exceptions. Film makers are first and foremost entertainers with limitations of time and budget. They must present a battle in terms that are understandable to the viewer and which meet the viewers expectations of what that battle should appear to be. The true depiction of some battles might be accurate but they might also just as well be boring in some respects and lacking in any entertainment value. The film makers must also compress an event lasting several hours into a smaller window. They have to pick and choose highlights. Film makers are concerned with realism which is distinct from authenticity. Does the film reflect the ferocity and confusion of battle? Does it conjure up a feeling of time and place? Does it place us in the action? Does it allow us to suspend disbelief and imagine that this is a "real" battle with real consequences for the participants? I think that on this level that the "Battle of the Bastards" succeeds very well.

NewYorkeroutoftown · 3時間前

This is awesome! As a fellow medieval history and warfare enthusiast I really appreciate it. One small thing though in the name of historical accuracy -- I'd like to point out that the Wars of the Roses actually took place in the 15th century, not the 16th (reference in the 4th paragraph of the parley section). Specifically, from 1455-1485. Although some peripheral conflict remained, they were definitely over by the 16th c. Other than that this is just awesome and I'd like to join the chorus of general praise! I'd love to see more stuff like this. I love how you mentioned that armies were raised by contract rather than feudal levy by the equivalent period of GoT (14th-15th). That's always bothered me, but does make sense in-universe as Westeros is obviously an amalgam of different periods of medieval history. It's so nice to know I'm not the only person in the war who's super into medieval history, because it does sometimes feel that way!

yakatuus · 3時間前

Chanfrons peytrals and crinets. Chanfrons peytrals and crinets.

Bluestreaking · 2時間前

I remember we discussed some of this stuff on my post on the battle. Our disagreements on some of the matters, chiefly that fact that I claim Davos had no idea of the incoming Bolton infantry, still exist but I applaud your thorough use of sources which at the end of the day is the true dividing line between amateur work and academic work in history.

TheDidact118 · 35分前

Regarding the Knights of the Vale, there's a pretty simple explanation for why Ramsay didn't know they were coming.

Last time Littlefinger met Ramsay they basically became allies.
The Bolton men at Moat Cailin could've been told by Littlefinger that Ramsay had sent for reinforcements.
Littlefinger and the Knights cross Moat Cailin and head North.

WafflestheAndal · 13分前

Here we see Davos strolling into the trap, despite it already being closed in the previous shot and him having at least twenty or thirty seconds to spot it coming and react to it. Somewhere Stannis is grinding his teeth and glaring at you for that, Davos.

Thank you!! I was going to write an analysis piece like yours, with an emphasis on Davos' role and his three key decisions. (1- prepare to charge, 2- don't shoot our own men, 3- join the melee) But you've clearly beaten me to it and done a much more thorough job.

I've been trying to think of what Davos should have done instead of inexplicably charging his 100% fresh archers into a melee. The best I came up with only works with 20/20 hindsight - it probably would have been best for him to stay put. Anything else exposes the archers - if for example he had already advanced the archers when the horseshoe of death arrives, it's more likely the pikemen would have detached a portion of men to make quick work of the archers.

If on the other hand he had waited, it's more likely his archers would remain unharassed. Then after the horseshoe of death trap has been sprung, he could advance his archers into direct-fire range and put some high-velocity arrows into the pikemen's backs.

Any thoughts on Davos' options in the situation?

plein_old · 9分前

This is awesome thank you.

The unrealistic nature of these battles bothers me sometimes, and I'm not even educated enough to know why I feel that way - just things seem off sometimes. Like in this last episode, it was like "hey guys, we'll probably lose, we'll be personally responsible for hundreds of brutal deaths of our own men who trust us, but sleep well, let's not stay up building shields or picking a log off the ground for Wun Wun to swing at people, or strategizing or anything. G'night!"

P.S. What Jon really needed was not Davos Seaworth but General Patton at his strategy session.

You know what the poet said: "Through the travail of ages Midst the pomp and toil of war Have I fought and strove and perished Countless times upon the star As if through a glass and darkly The age-old strife I see Where I fought in many guises Many names But always me." You know who the poet was? Me.

—Patton (1970)

AxeVillager · 5時間前

This was a wonderful read, thanks for sharing! Some people comment that you need to chill or that this is entirely different from the real world, but I want you to know that I appreciated this analysis more than anything!

in_rod_we_trust · 3時間前

When the director's were referencing the battle of Cannae, they meant that Ramsay's army was attempting it, not Jon...

SWBFCentral · 7時間前

I like the analysis but I'd argue the biggest problem here is at the start you compare their fighting force composition to actual history. This is Westeros dude. The North isn't necessarily identical in its demography to what is in our history. Also consider Robb had marched south with roughly 20,000 northerners, There is a good chance the majority of armor, able bodied men, weaponry etc had been lost in that campaign. Time may have passed but considering the Ironborn have been fucking the north it is considerable to assume that the composition of each fighting force may not necessarily be representative of what they should be able to muster, rather what they could at that time.

I like how you compare historical accuracy, but in this case you cannot compare their ability to bring Men-at-Arms to historical events and groups, this is Westeros. Not England.

Jmdlh123 · 6時間前

Awesome job! I still loved the battle though.

cantthinkofAredditUN · 5時間前

This was amazing, quite in depth, and very well done. Bravo

Galien_dArcy · 4時間前

I'm relieved that you take the time to write down all the errors of this scene, despite the superb realization it was a little painfull to watch. Impressive post and references !

You may also mention the charge at full pace of both infantry and cavalry. As far as I know they tend to advance at a walking pace toward the enemy and charge only at the last moment. Both for the obvious reason of avoiding to meet the enemy winded and to preserve the effect of an growing danger (by increasing the pace progressively).

The battle of marathon come to mind for the pace of charging infantry and for the cavalry you may read this excellement review : https://rha.revues.org/553 (in French).

kennyotfi · 3時間前

This was a fantastic read. I enjoyed the battle but I was mainly disappointed by the planning scene where Jon and co discussed tactics. Tormund is a nomadic raider and Davos a smuggler - surely these two should have some kind of cunning and guile to come up with different solutions. The model they were using was also terrible - no distinction between terrain or bodies of men, simply stones painted with crests. At least having small mounds of earth to represent relief and grass to show forest would have been useful, and could have helped in ensuring it didn't go as tits up as it did.

ultramarinestudios · 6時間前

I have a question. In the shows the soldiers are often shown wearing matching uniforms based off there house. Is this historically accurate?

Rcoop00 · 3時間前

I don't think the foresters are a real house I think they only exist in the shitty telltale game

AceHodor · 2時間前

Another battle featuring mounds of bodies was the Battle of Towton during the Wars of the Roses. When the Lancastrian forces routed, their line of retreat took them across the river Cock Beck, which forced them to bunch up/drown as they attempted to ford it. Supposedly, by the end of the battle so many had died trying to cross the river that the other survivors were able to flee faster by crossing literal 'bridges' formed of the corpses of their comrades. A second river crossing at the River Wharfe during the rout also resulted in another corpse mound, when a bridge the Lancastrians were using collapsed from the sheer weight of men, dumping hundreds of them into the water.

Don_Cheech · 1時間前

If I worked for HBO and saw your post I would probably have my assistant contact you. The crew could probably use your input.

sweetapples17 · 1時間前

basically, Jon's army was fucked from the get go

CreamStrudel · 44分前

Amazing effort man. There were definitely some things that didn't add up and I'm glad you took the time to go through each and every part.

I-BMO-I · 40分前

This is fantastic!! +1 from me!

skjortekrage · 40分前

wow, I'm in awe! amazing work.

quick off topic question if you don't mind: you seem like an really orginized person. Do you have any tips to avoid procrastinating?

BrodinsMechanic · 36分前

This is excellent work. Top notch, and I'm saying that as a similar type of fellow to you. It's exactly the sort of thing i felt like writing after watching Rome on HBO. Where the hell are the Pilum you fools!? No Onagers!? WTF!

Well done mate.

GloryHol3 · 30分前

"I envy those of you who don't see these mistakes or errors". As someone who doesn't see AS MANY I'm pretty happy too. I feel the same way about plot twists: I'd usually rather not see them coming

Suntsie · 26分前

Tbf Ramsay had no way of beating the nights. He has about 6k men right, according to the books/wiki the vale can raise a force of about 40k or so, they aren't gonna send their entire force but as long as they send like 25% of their men they already outnumber both armies combines not to mention they are one of the best equipped armies in westerns along witht the lannisters.

Other than that I really enjoyed this as another lover of history. I also enjoyed the episode but it bothered me at the same time due to flaws.

Rudolf895 · 6分前

Well done. Good research. I could've never imagine to being so dedicated to anything :/

feminerdy · 1分前

Hats off to you, sir, for such a thoughtful and well-researched analysis. I have a degree in history, but even though warfare was never one of my interests, I really enjoyed reading this. Thank you for taking the time to put this awesome analysis together!

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JoeyBosa · 3時間前

Good post but I feel that you underestimate the experience of Jon's Army if you are including the Wildlings. They fought the Night's Watch, the White Walkers and also Stannis's army for a bit.

lahimatoa · 3時間前

Thanks for putting into words why Ramsay not knowing the Knights of the Vale were coming bothered me so much.

onqqq2 · 2時間前

Honestly I didn't really care about the inaccuracies of the battle until I saw the commentary after the episode. It annoyed me how they just chose different historic battles from eras that were not even medieval to portray this Scottish/Anglo like medieval battle for Winterfell. I get it though. The Battle of Cannae was a great deal of fun to learn about, particularly if you listen to the podcast by Dan Carlin (The Punic Nightmares). But it just didn't fit in and it didn't even look right to me and I don't know jack about history really. Don't get me wrong I still liked that episode, definitely one I will re-watch for ages despite it's issues.

Anyways good read, thank you OP for putting in so much research to help us understand warfare better! I envy your historical knowledge and determination.

HungLikeA_Moose · 19分前

Your tl:dr should be: GoT is a non-realistic fantasy show.

Are you fucking kidding me?

Poopchute_Hurricane · 2時間前

I got downvoted for mentioning how stupid the corpse wall was and the fact that Umbers and karstarks or even the bolton men didnt give a shit about Ramsay killing his own men. I was told that in the heat and confusion of battle, men would just climb mountains of corpses to fight on top instead of going around them.

MurmurItUpDbags · 4時間前

Starts with a TL;DR = immediate upvote. Thats near gold worry in todays clusterfuck that is reddit.

manofconant · 3時間前

Only read about half way through, stopped when you were discussing cavalry... I think it's worth noting how Davos told the archers to stand down and that they'd be "slaughtering their own men"... To which the cameras cut to Ramsay telling archers to fire and you see arrows taking out both sides of cavalry's... I think Davos outplayed Ramsay in this regard.

fongos · 1時間前

Unnecessary amount of detail, but... good job?

Nuklearius · 6時間前

you need to chill a bit and just enjoy the battle. no need to tell us all the obvious blunders, it's fantasy after all

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