4344
4345

Betraying Progressives, DNC Platform Backs Fracking, TPP, and Israel Occupation (commondreams.org)

skoalbrother が 投稿

並べ替え:
ベスト
トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A
あなたは単独のコメントのスレッドを見ています。

残りのコメントをみる →

[–]Tasadar 102ポイント103ポイント  (73子コメント)

Yeah median wage makes no sense? That's like mathematically the best way to keep wages low and suppress the power of the minimum wage... You want average wage.

*Edit: Okay so for the idiots telling me I don't know what median means. *

Median: is the half way point

Mean: is the average

So let's say you have 10 people. 9 get paid 10$ an hour and one gets paid 100$ an hour. The average wage is 19, so if you peg it to half of that you have 9.5$ an hour. The median is 10$ so if you peg it to half of the median you have 5$.

Median goes up the more equality, while average is always the average and isn't effected by inequality. If you want the minimum wage to counter inequality then you shouldn't peg it to something that lowers it the more inequality. Stop telling me to learn the difference.

[–]percy_bitchy_shelley 57ポイント58ポイント  (51子コメント)

Better to just tie it to inflation as averages have problems across the board for things like this, which actively impact livability.

[–]Tasadar 59ポイント60ポイント  (25子コメント)

Oh I agree, but if you're gonna tie it to the spectrum of wages median is a sneaky way to not tie it to anything. Hell the median wage could go down, and the lower the minimum wage the lower the median wage, it's literally a feedback loop that feeds off inequality. She must think her voters are stupid?

[–]Z0di 68ポイント69ポイント  (0子コメント)

she knows they're stupid.

[–]proud_to_be_a_merkin 6ポイント7ポイント  (7子コメント)

Interesting point about it being a feedback loop. But thinking about it, wouldn't it trend upwards rather than downwards? Whatever algorithm they use will initially raise the minimum wage (not to $15, of course, probably somewhere closer to $10), which would increase median wages, which would increase minimum wage, etc.

All in theory of course. The powers that be probably wouldn't allow all that to happen.

[–]ir3flex 4ポイント5ポイント  (6子コメント)

So in this scenario, what happens when automation starts replacing the minimum wage jobs? Does the minimum wage rise as the median moves closer to higher paying jobs? Couldn't the combined effect of high unemployment and rising minimum wage destroy businesses as their customer bases shrink while also having to pay more to their employees? Effectively accelerating the problem.

[–]proud_to_be_a_merkin 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think automation replacing jobs is going to cause many more serious issues than that.

[–]Tango_777 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

As it turns out, it's probably more likely that automation will replace many of the typical white collar jobs before it does low income jobs--take call centers for instance. Just think of the general impressions you get with automated systems in that field. Businesses will likely be very tentative with installing that for at least a decade more. As a guy that works in manufacturing I'll tell you, automation is nice and often sought after, but the reality is far from what sites like futurism and its ilk would have you believe.

[–]Columbus-1492 -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

Why are customer bases shrinking when poor people can now afford to do more than eat?

[–]Tlr32 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

automation is the issue here.

poor people eat at poor places. if you automate poor jobs, more people are now jobless and poor. and using automation to replace jobs doesnt advance people at the bottom up the ladder.

[–]ir3flex -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Those are working poor. Automation creates unemployment.

[–]grevemoeskr 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

You don't know what median means, du you? Median is immune to changes in the outliers, as opposed to mean

[–]Tasadar -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

Exactly

[–]grevemoeskr 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

So there's no feedback loop. The median only goes down if lots of people that earn above the median suddenly earn less than the median. But the mean would go down even more

[–]Tasadar 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

No the feedback is the inequality, as wages go down it hurts the economy and feeds inequality, which lowers the median which lowers minimum wage, which lowers wages, which feeds inequality.

[–]grevemoeskr 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

But wages have almost never gone down. And as wages go up, so dies the median wage.

Besides, the minimum wage is a really bad tool to combat inequality. Government transfers have proven to be way better. Minimum wage should be set at a level that makes it possible to live, as a single person, on one job. Then use transfers to combat inequality. Transfers like the EITC is really great at that

[–]MushroomFry -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

She must think her voters are stupid?

Bernie thinks that too

increased from such amount by the annual percentage increase in the median hourly wage of all employees, as determined by the Bureau of Labor Statistics;

Source : http://www.sanders.senate.gov/download/pay-workers-a-living-wage-act?inline=file

[–]Tasadar 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yeah that's a dumb position for him to have.

[–]cinepro 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, they are supporting the minimum wage in the first place.

[–]MountSwolmore [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The replies you're getting should prove that.

[–]yobsmezn 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

They must be. People are telling me inflation never exceeds wage growth, like it's as obvious as gravity. It's a miracle I haven't been banned again for disagreeing with them.

[–]percy_bitchy_shelley 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Her coalition is made up entirely of 40+ voters who are either disconnected from how the world works today or have a vested interest in keeping things running as they are. I doubt there are many on minimum wage voting Clinton.

[–]armeggedonCounselor -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, they voted for her. And she knows most of them will vote for her regardless of what she states as her platform, simply because she has a D by her name on CSPAN.

[–]VolMarek -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

You need to check the definitions of "median" and "average" first. Then try to comment.

[–]Tasadar 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I know the meanings....

[–]gorpie97 7ポイント8ポイント  (6子コメント)

Better for us not better for the shareholders or owners, which is all our government seems to be interested in anymore.

[–]_FEEL_THE_TRUMP_10 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

Anyone with retirement savings has most of their wealth in shares.

[–]GoalDirectedBehavior 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

You should watch John Oliver's latest piece on this. Turns out anyone with retirement savings has most of their wealth in fees to the holder of their savings plan. And even so, 'anyone with retirement savings' will soon be 'just about nobody' if wages don't go up significantly, and soon.

[–]_FEEL_THE_TRUMP_10 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Turns out anyone with retirement savings has most of their wealth in fees to the holder of their savings plan.

He was probably talking about how many retirees pay too much in fees, their money is definitely majority in stocks and equities. What you said doesn't make any sense, I'm just gonna ignore that you actually take anything John Oliver says seriously. Try to study some finance 101 before going off about this stuff and advocating that the government pull economic levers that you don't even understand.

[–]GoalDirectedBehavior [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

From what I understand, it's an issue of compounding effects of fees. You end up losing 2/3 of what you would have had if you weren't charged fees on your 401k. Please watch and let me know why he's wrong. https://youtu.be/gvZSpET11ZY?t=7m52s

[–]_FEEL_THE_TRUMP_11_ [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yeah you just have to invest in something with low expense ratios. You also don't need a financial planner as the video illustrates. Vanguard funds are the most popular for a reason, the majority of people are already avoiding these fees. Like I said, it's finance 101 go read a sticky on /r/investing.

[–]gorpie97 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

So I should want to screw over people who earn minimum wage because my income is high enough to have a 401(k) or IRA?

(Did you know that 401(k)s are supposed to be about executive retirement plans?)

[–]cinepro 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

So if we have deflation the minimum wage would go down?

[–]iwasnotarobot 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Inflation is also imperfect as it can vary from the consumer price index.

[–]Birdman10687 21ポイント22ポイント  (12子コメント)

Correct. Median wages have been stagnant since like 1980

[–]Tarantio 11ポイント12ポイント  (10子コメント)

They've only been stagnant if you adjust for inflation: http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/Real-Median-Household-Income-Growth

Tying the minimum wage to the median income provides adjustments in line with inflation, and doesn't create a feedback loop like tying the minimum wage to the average income would.

[–]Birdman10687 8ポイント9ポイント  (6子コメント)

They've only been stagnant if you adjust for inflation: http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/Real-Median-Household-Income-Growth

lol obviously?

Tying the minimum wage to the median income provides adjustments in line with inflation

no it does not

[–]BlockedQuebecois 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

... /u/Tarantio is right. You're simultaneously arguing that median wages are stagnant if adjusted for inflation and that median wages aren't stagnant if adjusted for inflation. That doesn't make sense.

[–]Gamecommenter 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

You're falsely assuming there is no chance the median wage won't rise in line with inflation.

[–]BlockedQuebecois 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's certainly possible, but we've got 50 years of data to show that in a relatively healthy economy the median wage beats or matches inflation. If median wage were to begin to decrease relative to inflation that likely means something funky is going on in the economy (likely on the inflation side) that we should handle.

[–]Birdman10687 -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

No I'm not. You are assuming median wages and inflation are the same thing. They are not.

[–]BlockedQuebecois 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not assuming that. If, historically, median wages match with inflation then indexing something to the median wage effectively indexes it to inflation.

[–]Tarantio [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Median income changes with inflation, in the same direction as inflation. They aren't the same thing, and will sometimes change by a slightly different percentage, but they are inextricably linked.

[–]Tango_777 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

People really need to remember the difference between mean and median.

[–]darkaceAU 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Median wages have. Median total compensation hasn't.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/COMPRNFB

And there's good reason for this, see this article:

https://www.minneapolisfed.org/publications/the-region/where-has-all-the-income-gone

[–]TheRealRobinJR [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Probably some downvotes cause mean and median are both averages.

[–]racc8290 -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

That's like mathematically the best way to keep wages low and suppress the power of the minimum wage...

Well, I mean, that's kinda the idea. Can't have those uppity toilet scrubbers and burger flippers getting the idea that they should have a better quality life than we let them deserve. Not like they work as hard as me anyway.

If working two jobs as a single parent was really that hard, don't you think it would pay more? They get enough to have a (leaking maggot infested) roof and (exclusively 99c store) food. They should be grateful!

[–]Autodidact420 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

It's not that it isn't hard, it's that it's not valuable or in demeand and or that they're easily replaceable

being hard has nothing to do with wages for any job, other than if the being hard manages to keep others out lowering the labor supply of it

[–]Finntheflower 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

And you're not wrong from the current economic standing. I think people are taking past one another though. The other side is saying that they don't believe this is fair. The support side doesn't seem to have arguments past "that's how it is" and and recriminations. The against side feels that the underlying principles are wrong. I'd love to see a well-reasoned argument for support that didn't ignore the benefit of a better paid, better spending work force.

[–]Autodidact420 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Depends on who you're talking to

I was just saying that he was strawmanning hard. I'm actually something of a communist myself

[–]racc8290 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

better spending

Well the whole 'spending' part is your problem there! How can you get million dollar bonuses if you waste it all on 'proper' wages and employee safety!?

[–]grevemoeskr -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

No. Arindrajit Dube have shown that the optimal minimum wage is half the median wage

[–]VolMarek -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

You need to check the definitions of "median" and "average" again. Then comment.