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Betraying Progressives, DNC Platform Backs Fracking, TPP, and Israel Occupation (commondreams.org)

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[–]inthedollarbin 59ポイント60ポイント  (107子コメント)

What happened with min wage is Ellison put forth an amendment to strengthen the wording on 15 and that was voted down.

[–]PandaCodeRed 66ポイント67ポイント  (101子コメント)

and to index it to inflation whereas clinton supports indexing it to the median wage.

[–]in_the_saddle_again 57ポイント58ポイント  (75子コメント)

Which does not make it immune to wage supprseeion.

[–]Tasadar 101ポイント102ポイント  (73子コメント)

Yeah median wage makes no sense? That's like mathematically the best way to keep wages low and suppress the power of the minimum wage... You want average wage.

*Edit: Okay so for the idiots telling me I don't know what median means. *

Median: is the half way point

Mean: is the average

So let's say you have 10 people. 9 get paid 10$ an hour and one gets paid 100$ an hour. The average wage is 19, so if you peg it to half of that you have 9.5$ an hour. The median is 10$ so if you peg it to half of the median you have 5$.

Median goes up the more equality, while average is always the average and isn't effected by inequality. If you want the minimum wage to counter inequality then you shouldn't peg it to something that lowers it the more inequality. Stop telling me to learn the difference.

[–]percy_bitchy_shelley 55ポイント56ポイント  (51子コメント)

Better to just tie it to inflation as averages have problems across the board for things like this, which actively impact livability.

[–]Tasadar 59ポイント60ポイント  (25子コメント)

Oh I agree, but if you're gonna tie it to the spectrum of wages median is a sneaky way to not tie it to anything. Hell the median wage could go down, and the lower the minimum wage the lower the median wage, it's literally a feedback loop that feeds off inequality. She must think her voters are stupid?

[–]Z0di 66ポイント67ポイント  (0子コメント)

she knows they're stupid.

[–]proud_to_be_a_merkin 3ポイント4ポイント  (7子コメント)

Interesting point about it being a feedback loop. But thinking about it, wouldn't it trend upwards rather than downwards? Whatever algorithm they use will initially raise the minimum wage (not to $15, of course, probably somewhere closer to $10), which would increase median wages, which would increase minimum wage, etc.

All in theory of course. The powers that be probably wouldn't allow all that to happen.

[–]ir3flex 4ポイント5ポイント  (6子コメント)

So in this scenario, what happens when automation starts replacing the minimum wage jobs? Does the minimum wage rise as the median moves closer to higher paying jobs? Couldn't the combined effect of high unemployment and rising minimum wage destroy businesses as their customer bases shrink while also having to pay more to their employees? Effectively accelerating the problem.

[–]proud_to_be_a_merkin 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think automation replacing jobs is going to cause many more serious issues than that.

[–]Tango_777 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

As it turns out, it's probably more likely that automation will replace many of the typical white collar jobs before it does low income jobs--take call centers for instance. Just think of the general impressions you get with automated systems in that field. Businesses will likely be very tentative with installing that for at least a decade more. As a guy that works in manufacturing I'll tell you, automation is nice and often sought after, but the reality is far from what sites like futurism and its ilk would have you believe.

[–]Columbus-1492 -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

Why are customer bases shrinking when poor people can now afford to do more than eat?

[–]Tlr32 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

automation is the issue here.

poor people eat at poor places. if you automate poor jobs, more people are now jobless and poor. and using automation to replace jobs doesnt advance people at the bottom up the ladder.

[–]ir3flex -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Those are working poor. Automation creates unemployment.

[–]grevemoeskr 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

You don't know what median means, du you? Median is immune to changes in the outliers, as opposed to mean

[–]Tasadar -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

Exactly

[–]grevemoeskr 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

So there's no feedback loop. The median only goes down if lots of people that earn above the median suddenly earn less than the median. But the mean would go down even more

[–]Tasadar 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

No the feedback is the inequality, as wages go down it hurts the economy and feeds inequality, which lowers the median which lowers minimum wage, which lowers wages, which feeds inequality.

[–]MushroomFry -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

She must think her voters are stupid?

Bernie thinks that too

increased from such amount by the annual percentage increase in the median hourly wage of all employees, as determined by the Bureau of Labor Statistics;

Source : http://www.sanders.senate.gov/download/pay-workers-a-living-wage-act?inline=file

[–]Tasadar 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yeah that's a dumb position for him to have.

[–]cinepro 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, they are supporting the minimum wage in the first place.

[–]MountSwolmore [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The replies you're getting should prove that.

[–]yobsmezn 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

They must be. People are telling me inflation never exceeds wage growth, like it's as obvious as gravity. It's a miracle I haven't been banned again for disagreeing with them.

[–]percy_bitchy_shelley 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Her coalition is made up entirely of 40+ voters who are either disconnected from how the world works today or have a vested interest in keeping things running as they are. I doubt there are many on minimum wage voting Clinton.

[–]armeggedonCounselor -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, they voted for her. And she knows most of them will vote for her regardless of what she states as her platform, simply because she has a D by her name on CSPAN.

[–]VolMarek -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

You need to check the definitions of "median" and "average" first. Then try to comment.

[–]Tasadar 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I know the meanings....

[–]gorpie97 8ポイント9ポイント  (6子コメント)

Better for us not better for the shareholders or owners, which is all our government seems to be interested in anymore.

[–]_FEEL_THE_TRUMP_10 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

Anyone with retirement savings has most of their wealth in shares.

[–]GoalDirectedBehavior 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

You should watch John Oliver's latest piece on this. Turns out anyone with retirement savings has most of their wealth in fees to the holder of their savings plan. And even so, 'anyone with retirement savings' will soon be 'just about nobody' if wages don't go up significantly, and soon.

[–]_FEEL_THE_TRUMP_10 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Turns out anyone with retirement savings has most of their wealth in fees to the holder of their savings plan.

He was probably talking about how many retirees pay too much in fees, their money is definitely majority in stocks and equities. What you said doesn't make any sense, I'm just gonna ignore that you actually take anything John Oliver says seriously. Try to study some finance 101 before going off about this stuff and advocating that the government pull economic levers that you don't even understand.

[–]GoalDirectedBehavior [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

From what I understand, it's an issue of compounding effects of fees. You end up losing 2/3 of what you would have had if you weren't charged fees on your 401k. Please watch and let me know why he's wrong. https://youtu.be/gvZSpET11ZY?t=7m52s

[–]gorpie97 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

So I should want to screw over people who earn minimum wage because my income is high enough to have a 401(k) or IRA?

(Did you know that 401(k)s are supposed to be about executive retirement plans?)

[–]cinepro 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

So if we have deflation the minimum wage would go down?

[–]iwasnotarobot 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Inflation is also imperfect as it can vary from the consumer price index.

[–]Birdman10687 20ポイント21ポイント  (12子コメント)

Correct. Median wages have been stagnant since like 1980

[–]Tarantio 12ポイント13ポイント  (10子コメント)

They've only been stagnant if you adjust for inflation: http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/Real-Median-Household-Income-Growth

Tying the minimum wage to the median income provides adjustments in line with inflation, and doesn't create a feedback loop like tying the minimum wage to the average income would.

[–]Birdman10687 8ポイント9ポイント  (6子コメント)

They've only been stagnant if you adjust for inflation: http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/Real-Median-Household-Income-Growth

lol obviously?

Tying the minimum wage to the median income provides adjustments in line with inflation

no it does not

[–]BlockedQuebecois 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

... /u/Tarantio is right. You're simultaneously arguing that median wages are stagnant if adjusted for inflation and that median wages aren't stagnant if adjusted for inflation. That doesn't make sense.

[–]Gamecommenter 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

You're falsely assuming there is no chance the median wage won't rise in line with inflation.

[–]BlockedQuebecois 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's certainly possible, but we've got 50 years of data to show that in a relatively healthy economy the median wage beats or matches inflation. If median wage were to begin to decrease relative to inflation that likely means something funky is going on in the economy (likely on the inflation side) that we should handle.

[–]Birdman10687 -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

No I'm not. You are assuming median wages and inflation are the same thing. They are not.

[–]BlockedQuebecois 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not assuming that. If, historically, median wages match with inflation then indexing something to the median wage effectively indexes it to inflation.

[–]Tarantio [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Median income changes with inflation, in the same direction as inflation. They aren't the same thing, and will sometimes change by a slightly different percentage, but they are inextricably linked.

[–]Tango_777 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

People really need to remember the difference between mean and median.

[–]darkaceAU 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Median wages have. Median total compensation hasn't.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/COMPRNFB

And there's good reason for this, see this article:

https://www.minneapolisfed.org/publications/the-region/where-has-all-the-income-gone

[–]TheRealRobinJR [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Probably some downvotes cause mean and median are both averages.

[–]racc8290 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

That's like mathematically the best way to keep wages low and suppress the power of the minimum wage...

Well, I mean, that's kinda the idea. Can't have those uppity toilet scrubbers and burger flippers getting the idea that they should have a better quality life than we let them deserve. Not like they work as hard as me anyway.

If working two jobs as a single parent was really that hard, don't you think it would pay more? They get enough to have a (leaking maggot infested) roof and (exclusively 99c store) food. They should be grateful!

[–]Autodidact420 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

It's not that it isn't hard, it's that it's not valuable or in demeand and or that they're easily replaceable

being hard has nothing to do with wages for any job, other than if the being hard manages to keep others out lowering the labor supply of it

[–]Finntheflower 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

And you're not wrong from the current economic standing. I think people are taking past one another though. The other side is saying that they don't believe this is fair. The support side doesn't seem to have arguments past "that's how it is" and and recriminations. The against side feels that the underlying principles are wrong. I'd love to see a well-reasoned argument for support that didn't ignore the benefit of a better paid, better spending work force.

[–]Autodidact420 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Depends on who you're talking to

I was just saying that he was strawmanning hard. I'm actually something of a communist myself

[–]racc8290 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

better spending

Well the whole 'spending' part is your problem there! How can you get million dollar bonuses if you waste it all on 'proper' wages and employee safety!?

[–]grevemoeskr -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

No. Arindrajit Dube have shown that the optimal minimum wage is half the median wage

[–]VolMarek -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

You need to check the definitions of "median" and "average" again. Then comment.

[–]RCC42 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Which does not make it immune to wage suppression.

Now you're thinking with neo-liberalism.

[–]faet 20ポイント21ポイント  (13子コメント)

clinton supports indexing it to the median wage.

So, exactly like Bernie's 2015 $15 minimum wage bill?

increased from such amount by the annual percentage increase in the median hourly wage of all employees, as determined by the Bureau of Labor Statistics;

[–]PandaCodeRed 1ポイント2ポイント  (12子コメント)

Not exactly. She supports 12 federal wage instead of 15 which was why it was a compromise.

[–]BlockedQuebecois -1ポイント0ポイント  (11子コメント)

It's not a compromise if she completely adopted Bernie's language of the bill...

[–]PandaCodeRed -1ポイント0ポイント  (10子コメント)

It is if she gave it up while not conceding other parts of the platform. But anyways she didn't completely adopt everything they didn't adopt indexing the minimum wage to inflation.

Overall I agree, as a Clinton supporter I wish we had been compromised and given away fewer things in the platform. Especially $15 dollars instead of $12 and reinstating Glass-Steagall.

[–]BlockedQuebecois 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

But anyways she didn't completely adopt everything they didn't adopt indexing the minimum wage to inflation.

That's not what Bernie wanted in his bill...

[–]PandaCodeRed -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

But it is what he wanted on the platform, and it is his current stance on the minimum wage.

[–]BlockedQuebecois 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Is it? It's not on his website

[–]PandaCodeRed 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't know. I am not a Sanders supporter.

Isn't that is what every other comment in this thread is saying. And why they are so upset the motion was denied if it isn't? If it isn't than what is there to be upset about the language of minimum wage in the party platform.

[–]briangiles 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Wait, you think the platform is too liberal?

[–]PandaCodeRed -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

No.

I think $12 federal and $15 in local urban areas with higher costs of living to be a much more sensible plan. And I think breaking up big banks after spending billions of American Tax Payer money to merge BoA with investment banks is incredibly stupid. Especially as the size and scale of current American banks and investment banks have given them a large competitive advantage when it comes to global finance, and have resulted in more business financial business coming to NY instead of London or Shanghai.

I also think Hillary is about as liberal as Sanders, except her policies are feasible nuanced and don't fly in the face of established economics/science.

So I don't think the platform is too liberal, but I do think bad not well thought out policies from the Sanders camp have been adopted into the platform.

[–]fizzy88 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Who do you think gets most of the benefit from all that financial business and the size and scale of American investment banks being as they are?

[–]thisisnothuman -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

The people getting free checking accounts, low interest loans, cash back credit cards, air miles, banks open on weekends, free atms nationwide, online banking, quality phone apps, ect.

Ever notice that big banks tend to be more convenient than your local credit union? There's a reason for that.

[–]thisisnothuman 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I mean $15 / hr is a lot of fucking money in the middle of nowhere Texas. Even in a big city that'll get you pretty far. If we're implementing a national minimum I think $12 is perfectly reasonable. Having it tied to inflation is much more important.

[–]kerovon 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Where did you see median wage as the index point? All of the quotes I've seen just said "index it", and left what they wanted to index it to unspecified.

[–]user8737 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Wages not only should be tied to inflation but local/state/regional COL

[–]Kichigai [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Wouldn't cost of living be, defacto, tied to inflation? As inflation goes up or down, the cost of living would go up and down, yes?

[–]hall5714 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

No. Some areas COL increases faster than inflation, since we track inflation at a national level.

That said, tying it to inflation at all makes near zero sense. Just tie it to regional COL and you're good.

[–]Immanuel_I_Kant 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

My only gripe with tying wages to inflation is that during a recession or a negative shock, inflation happens and wages are going to be tied to spiking prices which can really harm the economy. I think it's better to tie wages to the boom-bust cycle.

[–]timeslaversurfur 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

yeah inflation is better since the median has been falling, well recently it dipped a little but adjusted for inflation its been flat despite the country is growing.. PLus a min wage tied to inflation actually helps hold up the median since it does cause people on up the line to want a little more.

the amount might be debatable and the time frame to getting to it, but it should be indexed to inflation. But also know professional left are kinda loath to give up their get-out-the-vote card, cant really blame them much though, as dems dont vote as much and people forget things won for them. GOP do it too with abortion and crap. they dont want to win. You win its harder to galvanize the voter.

we can still get it done with enough pressure. but it is basic human nature for them to not want to solve this for good.(or at least for the forseeable future that still has jobs)

[–]deusset 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

and to index it to inflation whereas clinton supports indexing it to the median wage.

Wait, does she really?

[–]The_GanjaGremlin 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

just when you think she has reached peak evil

[–]chiguy440 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

So was 15 already in? Since when?

[–]inthedollarbin [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It's in the draft but if I recall, the language is something like.. 'Democrats believe people should earn at least $15' as opposed to an explicit call for a federal min wage of 15.

[–]HiiiPowerd 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

They also added in 15 in the first place.

[–]RIPGeorgeHarrison -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly, so I would like to hear the context behind some of these other things I keep hearing.