comicbooks 内の wisesonAC によるリンク "Black" Issue #1 preview. 'What If Only Black People Could Get Superpowers?'

[–]ironflag 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think you pasted the wrong quote there, because I don't understand what point you're making and that's not from my OP.

Your previous post:

I doubt that this will go deeper than a clumsy attempt at depth with some boring racial-based narrative.

That's a pretty bad opinion, but at least it's a defensible response to a five page preview.

Your original post:

Wow. This could not be more ham-fisted. Six white cops, three with fucking shotguns, just unloading into three unarmed black teenagers, without mercy. And wadda know? The one cop of ambiguous ethnicity is the only one with a conscience. This is ridiculous.

Do you not see the difference between those two statements? Do you not recognize the difference in tone, in posture, in aggressiveness? This isn't rocket surgery.

I don't think we'll be able to continue after this if I have to spell out every single point and inference for you. I just don't have the time or the patience. Please try harder.

Look at Fem-Thor. She actually beat Titania at in #5 because girl power (a phrase she actually used). If they would have written it well, I would have been on-board. But no. It used forced, heavy-handed crap, instead. Just like this.

Oh, you're that guy. Okay. You should have said something earlier; it could have saved us both a bunch of time.

And yet you provide no examples.

Your posts?

No, it's the kind of thing you say to someone who hides behind rhetoric, instead of just outright calling you a bigot.

Just because you can't effectively engage and refute my rhetoric doesn't mean I'm hiding behind it. It's a poor craftsman who blames his tools, poorer still one who blames the tools of another.

Because that's it. There's nothing more. Just black vs. white. That's all the preview has to offer. Jesus, it's even printed in black and white!

That doesn't answer the question and in fact is a completely incoherent response. I'll ask the question again, and again, please try harder: Why do you state "the subject matter is totally racially motivated with an agenda" as if it conclusively determines the state of the work? This time, actually engage with the question.

Nigger Jim

You feel better now?

The central difference between BLACK and Huck Finn, I suspect, is that Huck Finn was meant to make white people understand the perspective and plight of black people. Whereas, BLACK just seems divisive and clumsy.

This is... you don't even realize how badly you told on yourself here, do you?

Nope. But there'd be no objective way to prove or disprove that, so my denial is just as empty as your question.

I ask these questions for you, not for me. You don't need to tell me the answer. I thought that was clear, but again, I guess I need to spell out which questions are rhetorical and which ones aren't.

Oh, my mistake. I wasn't aware that I had to use every adjective to describe it in my first post. Did ham-fisted not imply dull and poor quality to you?

Lot of Shakespeare is ham-fisted. Lot of Twain, lot of Wilde. Pretty much everything before modernism can be construed as ham-fisted in one way or another, so no, it didn't imply that. Do you think hitting the reader over the head with a theme or moral automatically robs a work of any worth? (rhetorical) If so, do you think nothing worthwhile was written until about 80 years ago? (rhetorical)

The comic is called BLACK. The title page says: "In a world that already fears and hates them - what if black people had superpowers?" and is a picture of a black person with a hoodie. What, do you think race is just a benign subject here? The fucking comic is in black and white. What do you think is happening? Six white cops kill three unarmed black kids and the only cop with a problem with the whole thing isn't white. I mean, what's the narrative there? It wasn't an accident. Clearly race is the major theme, so why is it set up like that?

So you want them to address race... without leveraging the races of the characters involved? (rhetorical) Because if it is black teens and white cops, it's automatically ham-fisted and a bad story? Do you see how incoherent your argument is? (actual question)

Examples would've been nice there.

See your original post vs the most recent post in re: moving goalposts.

I'm not. And what do you even care? You know they're fake, intangible points, right? You can't redeem them anywhere, or something like that.

I was sent a punch card in the mail. When I'm downvoted, it's really hard to get those little pieces of paper back in the holes.

You just can't help but insult me, can you?

Saying you're avoiding thinking critically is not insulting you; it's my read of your shifting position and nonsensical reasoning. If I implied you were incapable of reasoning critically, well, that might be an insult. But I have faith in you.

In any case. This is where we are now:

I had five pages to read.

I was given five pages to read.

That's all I had to read.

I've told you and I've told the author, I'm going to pick up the first issue.

And, like I already told you, I'll be picking it up.

I just find it fascinating how your position has swung from complete dismissal in the OP after five pages based on your disdain for the characters' races to foreseeing that the entire series will be "a clumsy attempt at depth with some boring racial-based narrative" that you're still going to buy the first issue of. You took a couple of indefensible positions (blanket opinion of the entire work after a five page preview, based solely on the races of the characters involved) that you're now trying to moderate and shore up.

And that's fine. I ain't mad at you. This has all made my day go by a tiny bit faster, so I can't complain. I'm just saying that you're not fooling anybody that isn't already fooling themselves. That's all.

comicbooks 内の wisesonAC によるリンク "Black" Issue #1 preview. 'What If Only Black People Could Get Superpowers?'

[–]ironflag 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Doubtful. Like I told the author, I'll read the book. But I seriously doubt that this will go deeper than a clumsy attempt at depth with some boring racial-based narrative.

Yes, that's exactly what your OP said. "Hey guys, I doubt that this will go deeper than a clumsy attempt at depth with some boring racial-based narrative." At least have the courage to stand by your original opinion instead of backpedaling to something (marginally) more defensible at the earliest available opportunity.

So what personal baggage were you talking about? And what made it so "disgusting?'

Like I said, I don't know what's in your heart, so I don't know the specifics of your personal baggage. All I know is that it clearly exists, as evidenced by the vitriol of your reaction, your inability to grant the benefit of the doubt to the author, and your refusal to recognize your own giant blind spot.

Nor have I said anything to the contrary, so why even say that?

You mean except for the original post where you completely forgot everything you learned about storytelling in modern comics and decided after five pages that the entire thing was "ham-fisted" and "ridiculous"? Yeah, you're right, that's something a reasonable person does and you totally deserve the benefit of the doubt.

And what preconceptions are those exactly? I'm not arguing that black kids haven't gotten shot by police before. I'm not saying that racism doesn't exist. I'm not even saying that life isn't hard for black people. What I am saying is that this is a poorly written comic book.

Because within five pages, white cops shot a black kid and a non-white cop reacted. That means the entire comic is trash. No need to read any more, I've seen enough.

That's the very definition of reactionary. I'm not pulling this out of thin air; these are the things you wrote that reflect the feelings you wanted to communicate. I'm not putting anything onto you that you haven't provided ample evidence for in your posts.

You vocabulary is very impressive. You must be very proud.

This is the kind of thing people say when they can't refute your argument.

Because it's bad. It's poor, heavy-handed writing. The subject matter is totally racially motivated with an agenda. After all, it's title BLACK and it's entire premise is that black people suddenly get powers. And it starts on the title page with this quote: "In a world that already hates and fears them - white if only black people had superpowers" and in the following five pages, three black kids are gunned down by white police officers. Yeah, nothing deeper there.

See, now we're getting to it.

"The subject matter is totally racially motivated with an agenda." Why do you state this as if it conclusively determines the state of the work? Would you like me to list a few notable literary works that are racially motivated? I think you're going to have a hard time locating anything written without an agenda. Or is it that you only have this kind of reaction when you percieve the agenda as something that you don't agree with?

I did. I saw a vapid, desperate attempt to use racism as an illusion of depth.

In five pages. Yeah, let's read the first five pages of CEREBUS and make a final determination as to how vapid, desperate, and illusory its depth is. Seems reasonable!

Well, I was honest with myself and found out that I really dislike poor, dull writing. But I already knew that, so it didn't really help. Thanks, anyway.

Except that your OP said nothing about "poor, dull writing." You said it was "ham-fisted" and backed it up by pointing out the race of the characters depicted. And yet you want the benefit of the doubt.

But keep moving those goalposts and downvoting me and posting more GIFs in response to arguments you can't effectively address. Whatever keeps you from having to actually critically think, champ.

comicbooks 内の wisesonAC によるリンク "Black" Issue #1 preview. 'What If Only Black People Could Get Superpowers?'

[–]ironflag 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Dude. Every single cops was dead set on shooting them. One kid moves and they just blow them away like that's standard procedure.

It's almost like we were dropped into the story right in the middle of the action! Do you think there's backstory and background motivation that we'll learn about later? If only there was a term for this... or maybe if there was some other legendary work of literature that did the same thing.

Why weren't you able to recognize this? You read comic books. You're familiar with commonly-used storytelling techniques and formulas. What prevented you from being able to identify the narrative techniques at hand?

So I guess it's just a happy accident that all six of the shooters are angry, white cops and that the one and only cop who tries to stop it isn't.

Hey, do you think there might be more to the story after these five pages? Do you think it's possible that these cops might be humanized, shaded, textured characters?

Why are you so reluctant to give the author the benefit of the doubt when you haven't even read the entire first issue? You read comic books. You recognize that stories unfold at their own pace and that it's impossible to compress the characterization of an entire cast down into the FIRST FIVE PAGES OF THE FIRST ISSUE. What's preventing you from acknowledging this?

Remember kids, if anyone disagrees with you, it's because they're a racist!

I didn't call you a racist. If I wanted to call you a racist, I would call you a racist.

Honestly, I don't know if you're a racist or not. You certainly haven't said anything that would encourage me to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I can't speak to the truths in your heart.

What I can speak to is your lack of critical thinking and willingness to embrace reactionary rhetoric at the slightest sign of having your preconceptions challenged. I can also speak to my complete lack of shock and surprise at your inability to recognize the fundamental incoherence of your argument.

This is why I said that you're bringing your own personal baggage to this. Your interpretation and reaction here tells more about you than it does about the work you're criticizing. Again, it's not about disagreeing about quality or personal tastes, it's about how your opinions fall neatly into line with a long tradition of simplistic, solipsistic reactions to any work that challenges your calcified worldview.

And this is before we even approach how you refuse to give this work the distance any fiction needs in order to be properly evaluated (which, again, falls squarely within a certain tradition that doesn't reflect favorably upon you).

I say all of this not to change your opinion or declare victory. I'm saying this because: you are reading from a script. A long-deprecated, widely-circulated, easily-invalidated script. You've mistaken this script for something approaching objective wisdom and have failed to critically examine it.

So my advice to you would be: examine it. Ask yourself why you reacted the way you did, with the speed and fury that you did. Ask yourself why you refused to see what was right in front of you despite having all of the tools and more than enough experience to use them properly. Challenge yourself and try to figure out why these five pages make you feel the way you feel. If you're honest with yourself, you might be surprised with the results.

comicbooks 内の wisesonAC によるリンク "Black" Issue #1 preview. 'What If Only Black People Could Get Superpowers?'

[–]ironflag 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks for the advice. Glad you could find the time to squeeze me in between telling rape victims that they asked for it and poor people that they should just work harder.

comicbooks 内の wisesonAC によるリンク "Black" Issue #1 preview. 'What If Only Black People Could Get Superpowers?'

[–]ironflag 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Every single one of the white cops is just ready to unload unbridled death into three unarmed kids just casually walking down the street and smiling with a basketball.

Spoken like someone who's never had a cop point a gun at them with no justification.

And they just blow them away without remorse.

Exactly how much remorse were you expecting from the first five pages?

But the only cop who seems to have a problem with killing unarmed kids is an ethnically ambiguous person. What a surprise.

Again, first five pages.

Look how happy these black kids are! Man, life's just SO good! Until the white people get there!

Is this a joke? Parody? THIS IS HOW STORYTELLING WORKS. There are literally two panels of them smiling and enjoying themselves. Two! Why... how can a reasonable person say that showing two panels of the main character smiling before the precipitating event reflects "a desperate narrative with an obvious agenda"?

It's disgustingly obvious from the intensity of your reaction that you're bringing a great deal of your own personal baggage to your reading of these FIVE PAGES. One might even say that you've, oh, I don't know, stereotyped the entirety of the story based on a tiny bit of the whole.

Hey, if it's not for you, it's not for you. If you don't think it's good, I'm not going to try to convince you. But I also don't have to pretend like any of the examples you gave are in the least bit valid or reasonable.

Hawaii 内の ironicalballs によるリンク Brainstorming Ideas to Alleviating Hawaii's Housing and Traffic Problems

[–]ironflag 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The problem isn't a lack of ideas. The problem is that you need consensus to get anything done and consensus is very difficult to achieve in Hawaii for a variety of reasons.

comicbooks 内の matlockga によるリンク "Spider-Man: Dead No More's" True Title Revealed: "The Clone Conspiracy"

[–]ironflag 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Doc Ock in a six-armed spider-body. I like the way you think.

comicbooks 内の NovaW2 によるリンク Which comic has your favorite cover?

[–]ironflag 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I was just thinking about the cover to PLANETARY #26 this weekend.

comicbooks 内の Not_Actually_French によるリンク [Spoilers] He's gone [CIVIL WAR II #1]

[–]ironflag 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Bendis, the comic book writer, likes Luke Cage.

comicbooks 内の dmh2493 によるリンク What are some of the most famous quotes from comic books?

[–]ironflag 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

On your knees for the master!

The hour has come! HE has come!

Who is beyond good and evil?

Who is the prophet of Anti-Life?

Who is the rock and the chain and the lightning?

All powerful!

All unforgiving!

All conquering!

WHO IS YOUR NEW GOD NOW AND FOREVER?

DARKSEID IS.

sto 内の STOBot によるリンク Star Trek Online: Crystalline Entity Event Now Live

[–]ironflag 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

>:(

Honestly, if it was even 5%, I'd buy four or five R&D packs and cross my fingers, but at 1% I'd rather use that time and money to get a head start on saving the EC to buy it off of the exchange.

sto 内の XanthosGambit によるリンク How do I use the Admiralty system?

[–]ironflag 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Probably someone who says "Admeerall" like Khan.

sto 内の STOBot によるリンク Star Trek Online: Crystalline Entity Event Now Live

[–]ironflag 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I WANT THAT SHIP.

Anyone know off-hand what the drop % might be?

comicbooks 内の Ultimate_Kardas によるリンク [SPOILERS] Looks like Venom's less "purified" than we thought (Venom: Spaceknight #7)

[–]ironflag 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

That third page should be the official LOL reaction image of this subreddit from now on.

sto 内の STOBot によるリンク Star Trek Online Coming to Xbox One and PS4

[–]ironflag 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

But Microsoft has ended that policy. If cross-platform play isn't on the roadmap, will there at least be the option of copying PC characters over?

comicbooks 内の Brainiac2016 によるリンク Doctor Strange is great again thanks to Aaron & Bachalo

[–]ironflag 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

For classic stuff: the original Ditko run and "What Is It That Disturbs You, Stephen?" are probably the foundational works.

Modern era: I'll probably get shouted down for this, but I enjoyed JMS' STRANGE miniseries that updated his origin, Waid's STRANGE mini that was a small-stakes (for Strange, anyway) story that evokes the hero + everygirl dynamic that seems to be dominant nowadays, and BKV's DOCTOR STRANGE: THE OATH which is closer in tone to a 40s-era romantic comedy than a classic Strange story.

Also, DOCTOR DOOM/DOCTOR STRANGE: TRIUMPH AND TORMENT. It's definitely more of a Doom story than a Strange story, but it's still very very good.

Hawaii 内の invisablebear によるリンク Shipping question! Would appreciate some help.

[–]ironflag -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Stuff from Amazon is supposed to come by air, including ParcelPool/International Bridge stuff, but sometimes it gets routed incorrectly (like through Richmond, CA) and it gets put on a boat instead. Which means, yeah, 4-6 weeks. I encourage you to contact Amazon once it's outside of the delivery window and request a reshipment/refund; they'll happily give it to you and it'll go in their data pool so that maybe they'll lean on USPS to fix it in the future.

sto 内の wesley135 によるリンク KDF Blue Boffs Free Giveaway

[–]ironflag 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

@GoldenArms, 2 KDF toons, thanks!

sto 内の GuinDC によるリンク T6 Valiant Ship Visuals

[–]ironflag 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, in my personal headcanon it's an experimental refit meant to address the potential Dominion threat in the same way the original Defiant was meant to address the Borg threat.

sto 内の GuinDC によるリンク T6 Valiant Ship Visuals

[–]ironflag 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Here's my T6 Valiant with a mix of the Sao Paulo and Defiant parts, running the Jem'Hadar complete set.

Now I'm inspired to collect another set, slide them into the visual slots for a Nebula, and name it the USS Purple Rain.

comicbooks 内の ShinCoal によるリンク Venom: Space Knight copy pasting Games Workshop (Warhammer) owned properties, the latter company is known for being really prone to sue. This should be fun

[–]ironflag 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nah, nothing much will come of it.

Games Workshop likes to bully small-fry, but taking on Disney is another matter entirely. That's not to say that they couldn't file suit and make a real nuisance of themselves, but there's no real upside in making an enemy like Disney over something so insignificant in the larger scale of things.

Both GW's lawyers and Disney's lawyers know this, which means at most there will be some phone calls between the two, memos will be sent out, shit will roll downhill, and Olivetti will be yelled at and possibly yanked off the book.

sto 内の Yunners によるリンク Ship naming. What do your call your most used ships and why?

[–]ironflag 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I used to name my ships after mythological figures, but once I hit endgame I decided to just go with "names that sound cool."

My T6 Valiant is the USS Destroying Angel and my Tal Shiar ship is the RRW Neca Ne Necaris.

I changed my Intel Escort to USS Murder Boat as a joke, but it's stuck and I honestly can't remember what it used to be named.

My Engineering alt commands the USS Paris Geller and my Sci alt commands the USS Walter Bishop.

I wanted to name my Dreadnought Yamato USS Ex Nihilo, but the profanity filter always rejects it.

Rockband 内の BravoGangUS によるリンク DLC Week of 4/25

[–]ironflag 26ポイント27ポイント  (0子コメント)

"Dope Nose" is a great Weezer song, but it is still not "Only In Dreams." I double-checked and everything.