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[–]AnxaWeird Flair[M] [スコア非表示] stickied comment (0子コメント)

This post has been locked as consequence of the overwhelming and egregious Rule 1 violations that have continued to appear despite a prior stickied moderator warning six hours ago imploring civility in discussion.

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[–]RayWhelans [スコア非表示]  (13子コメント)

BREAKING Brexit: Spain proposes 'shared sovereignty' over Gibraltar

The world has literally changed over night.

[–]el_al_Air [スコア非表示]  (9子コメント)

We haven't seen a decent matchup between the British and Spanish navies for a few hundred years.

I know who I will be betting on.

[–]stargazerAMDG [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

This could get very interesting. I'm already seeing some buzz on Northern Ireland calling to reunify with Ireland and Scotland wanting to leave the UK again. When you look at the results and see how much they were against Brexit, I'm very intrigued to see what happens next

[–]ThreeCranes [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

Leave did better in the Unionists areas than expected. But do Pro Remain Unionists love the EU that much that they're going to vote for a United Ireland? I don't think so.

[–]stargazerAMDG [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

Personally, I don't think it will happen either. I just wasn't expecting to see some North Ireland politicians calling for a discussion on reunification

[–]ThreeCranes [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

I don't know what politicians you're referring to but I'm going to assume that it's Sinn Fein trying for support.

[–]Chiponyasu [スコア非表示]  (34子コメント)

So, Sinn Fein is calling for an Irish re-unification vote, and the SNP is implying they want to redo the independence vote.

What's Wales up to? Is the entire UK in danger of falling apart.

[–]feralhog [スコア非表示]  (16子コメント)

If the Pound stays like this, it's very possible Northern Ireland could vote to unify and Scotland would vote to leave and join/re-join the EU. That's going to be an incredibly fascinating subplot to watch.

[–]JustPraxItOut [スコア非表示]  (15子コメント)

Can we get a new country - the United Kingdoms of Ireland and Scotland - which has an economy that revolves entirely around whiskey and golf? Because that would be awesome...

[–]TheGoddamnSpiderman [スコア非表示]  (10子コメント)

Wales voted 52-48 for leave, so they're probably happy where they are.

[–]AlexisDeTocqueville [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

For now. It sounds like a lot of observers are very surprised by Wales's decision given their economic interdependence with the EU.

[–]thursdayaug22 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

This vote was not made on the basis of what is rationally good for the people of Britain.

[–]Kimye2020 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Ireland won't be an issue because the Republic really doesn't want the North back anyways at this point. The only real Irish problem is that they might have closed border now between the the North and the Republic.

Wales can't exist on their own. Even Plaid Cymru, the nationalist party isn't actively working for independence so much as they want more for Wales. They don't have the money to realistically last on their own and their union with England is much older than the UK.

Scotland is the real question though. They wanted the stay in the EU and they were close to leaving Britain. Also if the pound is devalued, the Euro might seem more appealing.

[–]RayWhelans [スコア非表示]  (39子コメント)

LATEST: Standard & Poor's says UK likely to lose AAA credit rating: FT

Big news. Just to those who think this is just a hiccup.

[–]Fedelede [スコア非表示]  (24子コメント)

Jesus Christ. Literally every part of Remain's "scaremongering" is coming true now. The pound, credit, trade, Scotland...

[–]2rio2 [スコア非表示]  (18子コメント)

The problem is the people voting HAVE NO IDEA WHAT ANY OF THAT MEANS. They think it's globalist bankers trying to scare them. They literally have no idea how the financial system they've used their entire lives works.

[–]Fedelede [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

Yeah, they don't understand it's not scaremongering - it's literally how the process works.

Take this, for instance, it'll mean savage cuts to pay higher interest rates, or rapidly ballooning debt. Both of which were key components of Osborne's "emergency budget" that was supposedly scaremongering. It's just the basics of the financial system reacting to insecurity.

[–]2rio2 [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

You just have to read the ineptitude in the celebratory responses online to see they don't see it in that way at all though. They see it as "escaping" Europe and its influences without any real world context of what that means. It's like children celebrating moving out at 18 because mom and dad were too hard on them and they finally have their freedom.

[–]particle409 [スコア非表示]  (10子コメント)

They literally have no idea how the financial system they've used their entire lives works.

This is everywhere. Look at all the people in the US who think we shouldn't have bailed out the big banks.

[–]Fieryshaftofjustice [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I didn't have a problem with bailing out they banks. The problem I had with all that was that no one who caused all of it was even charged with anything.

[–]Triseult [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

It's almost as if the experts knew what the fuck they were talking about...

[–]Fedelede [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

Farage calling for a Brexit Prime Minister.

It's started now. RIP Cameron.

[–]EmbraceTheFlummery [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

If it has to be Johnson, can he at least shave his head first? Or maybe some hair dye?

Anyways, as far as I understand, this is a disaster for Cameron. I mean, it is a disaster for a lot of people, but especially Cameron.

[–]_HauNiNaiz_ [スコア非表示]  (33子コメント)

Overall, the most shocking thing for me isn't how badly wrong the polls were about the referendum. It's that there was even a referendum in the first place.

The political and academic consensus in the UK was largely that a Brexit was dangerous fringe idea. Yet Cameron risked it and promised a referendum, expecting an easy win for remain that would silence the Euroskeptics in his party and kill the UKIP. Cameron was confident he would slay the dragon but instead ended up giving it the keys to the kingdom.

Also shocking is that the UKIP managed to get the UK out of the EU even though the electoral system blocked them from gaining any meaningful representation in parliament. Mere fear of the UKIP siphoning votes from his party prompted Cameron to call the referendum. I don't think he would have called for the referendum if it wasn't for Farage and the UKIP. Farage didn't make it into parliament in 2015 but looks like he's achieved his dream of a Brexit and has made it into the history books.

[–]Lozzif [スコア非表示]  (15子コメント)

Cameron is dead politically.

[–]quadropheniac [スコア非表示]  (9子コメント)

Yep. He decided to have a dick measuring contest and destroyed hundreds of billions of dollars of wealth in the process, and then lost.

[–]FinnSolomon [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

This disaster of a referendum came about because of simple party politics. Cameron will go down in history as one of the worst PMs ever.

[–]pipsdontsqueak [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

He's taken two stupid and unnecessary gambles. The first was Scotland which he won, but by less than expected and after he backpedaled hard on his comments. The second is this, where he didn't realize just how bad fear and unrest were getting in the UK. If you have the win, you don't risk it on a vote that can only be bad for you.

He's generally been incompetent. Hard to believe people will look back on Gordon Brown with some fondness because he was so boring by comparison (despite the interesting moves he made with the British economy).

[–]quadropheniac [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

And there's an above-average chance that he'll lose Scotland as a result of this.

What a fuck up.

[–]Golden_Kumquat [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

Cameron only promised to hold a referendum to get UKIP-leaning people to vote for him.

[–]Kersplit [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Holy Shit Cameron just announced his resignation. The markets are going to love that...

[–]nicksam112 [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

Thoughts on Gibraltar? Will Spain make a move, potentially close the border to put some pressure on them?

[–]AquaAtia [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I want to know this too as someone in the Spanish foreign minister threatened seizure the very next day the U.K left the EU

[–]IVIaskerade [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

That went really well for Argentina.

[–]thedrunkennoob [スコア非表示]  (155子コメント)

What did I just witness?

[–]Anal_Vacuum [スコア非表示]  (50子コメント)

Nationalism

[–]kerouacrimbaud [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Which might be ironic if this demonstration of British nationalism yields a rise in Scottish and Irish citizens.

[–]palaso1 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

And that has always led to flawless decisions in europe

[–]007meow [スコア非表示]  (52子コメント)

The beginning of the end of the EU.

Other countries have a decent chance of pulling out now too.

[–]sammysounder [スコア非表示]  (16子コメント)

This was my first thought, but now I think it's the beginning of the end of the UK. Look at the election returns and its clear that Scotland sides with Europe. Northern Ireland isn't siding with the English in that fight.

It's only England that is pro separation. England may soon be a small country.

[–]he-said-youd-call [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

The Queen should give a speech. I don't know what it would say, but I'd be interested as fuck in what she has to say about all of this.

[–]kerouacrimbaud [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Nah basically every other country will now go for closer ties.

[–]DeepPenetration [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

This is what I feel, maybe Scotland will join the EU? I'm seeing that Northern Ireland will merge into Ireland, which means they will be part of the EU as well. Maybe England will go at this alone?

[–]probabli [スコア非表示]  (18子コメント)

Well I was certainly wrong. I assumed late deciding voters would default to the status quo which was obviously an incorrect assumption.

For some context on the effect this will have on the markets - Australian banks were up 1-2% when the markets opened this morning, before polls closed in the UK. They are now down 3-5%, so a drop of 5-6%.

Australia isn't that connected to the UK or Europe economically. This is just a reflection of the level of uncertainty markets hold in the wake of brexit. I'd expect that to balance a little in the coming weeks, but expect some rough times in the world of economics.

[–]cluelessperson [スコア非表示]  (9子コメント)

Well I was certainly wrong. I assumed late deciding voters would default to the status quo which was obviously an incorrect assumption.

IMO this is a mistake analysts have made over the past elections, British voters don't have a status quo bias, they have a reactionary one.

[–]Masterzjg [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

Wanna provide some evidence for your claim? Is there a history of British voters rejecting the status quo because it's the status quo? I recall the Scottish referendum being decisively in favor of the status quo despite a closer race in the polls.

[–]Fedelede [スコア非表示]  (25子コメント)

The SNP is pretty clearly going to ask for a second referendum now. Hopefully Indy'll win this time.

[–]Xdeser2 [スコア非表示]  (31子コメント)

You know, I was quite fond of Europe not tearing itself apart every couple of decades...

[–]rebel581 [スコア非表示]  (28子コメント)

Well the Europeans just need to go blow each other up a bunch every few decades. Then they remember why that was a bad idea and repeat it again in a few decades.

[–]lotu [スコア非表示]  (20子コメント)

Do you think they will mind if the US decides to sit this one out ?

[–]ziekial [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

You only sit it out until everyone else is exhausted. Then you sweep the legs and become the world superpower.

[–]Jazzhandsjr [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

This has been a weird year.

[–]Leoric [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

How far is the pound going to drop over the next 24 hours?

[–]feralhog [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Down 10% already. The markets are going to be a bloodbath in the morning.

[–]truenorth00 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

12% already. Should stabilize though. I'd say 10% lower at least.

[–]ticklishmusic [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

some say when the pound drops far enough, king arthur will return

[–]TehAlpacalypse [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Whoever can pull the pound out of this hole becomes the new king of Britain!

[–]NDubbaYa [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

I can't imagine David Cameron stays on as PM for much longer. Bless his heart, but the man is fucked. He has to recognize the voice of the British people. You can't ignore over 16 million voters. If he turns around and doesn't recognize the referendum, because it isn't legally binding, it could result in riots and a new PM that will probably be Pro-Leave anyway.

What a legacy to leave behind.

[–]bluecamel2015 [スコア非表示]  (11子コメント)

It is probably very likely Cameron is out sooner rather than later.

It is also going to be interesting to see if Scotland does not finally pass Independence and leave the UK.

The more long term thing to watch is if this is just an isolated incident or the first domino to fall. Is it possible other nations might look at the UK and say "They did it. So can we."

Is it possibly increasingly anti-immigrant sentiments taking hold particularly in Northern and Eastern Europe be the tipping point for euro-skeptics to make their move?

I don't know but interesting to watch.

[–]Loop_Within_A_Loop [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

The pound has to stabilize somewhat soon for that to happen.

I think it's hard to sell Leave again if Remain can say "the UK voted to leave, and they went into recession over it"

[–]SirOz [スコア非表示]  (15子コメント)

As a European working in London right now, this is insane. This city is running on non-British labour, especially in the finance sector, so it will be very interesting to see what happens now.

Will be looking forward to seeing how the EU responds to this, I don't expect a dance on roses for the UK when negotiating.

[–]megaFatDickNuts [スコア非表示]  (10子コメント)

Is it shocking that wales voted heavily to leave? I'm not familiar with the culture of the UK but for some reason I thought wales would stay.

[–]Zombie-Feynman [スコア非表示]  (18子コメント)

Wow, this is huge, and not what I'd have expected at all. It's sort of scary to think how much the rhetoric has shifted, both in Europe and in the US, to become so much more isolationist and protectionist. Might pave the way for more countries to leave - the return of a divided Europe would be troubling.

[–]Nonsanguinity [スコア非表示]  (13子コメント)

Are the causes of this shift similar in both countries? My impression on the US side is that it comes from gen x getting crushed by the housing crisis and never quite fully recovering, and millennials getting crushed under student loan debt, and both suffering from a poor job market where demand exceeds the supply - the result being that people feel like they're treading water and not really feeling like they're on an upward trajectory, lowering opportunity costs for increasingly extreme alternatives to the point where they almost seem like legitimate options (see Trump). Is the same true in the UK?

[–]Masterzjg [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

The shift in the US comes mostly from the failure of the factory workers of the post-WWII boom economy to transition to a service based economy. Workers who have worked making car parts are seeing their livelihoods outsourced and lack the skills to find a high paying job in the new economy of the 21st century. This is by no means the fault of the workers though and I do not intend to blame them if that's how it's coming off; rather, this shift is unavoidable but foreseeable. Nobody has cared enough to soften the landing of these workers in a serious way. These workers are the people powering Donald Trump's movement and the UKIP movement. Looking down the barrel of the proverbial gun, these workers are reacting by fighting back against the establishment which sold them out. The establishment has sold out their livelihoods in the name of globalization. The establishment has ignored or taken for granted these workers for years. The establishment is being made to pay for this with events such as this leave result.

[–]simsoy [スコア非表示]  (10子コメント)

My predictions:

  • the EU is going to make the UK pay out of the ass for access now, and people are generally going to be unhappy when their taxes go up, things get more expensive, travel is harder and some of their systems reliant on the EU are worse.

  • Scotland could maybe decided for independence and then join the EU, which could be huge because that might bolster the Scottish economy and steal lots of energy from England.

People aren't going to be happy though. This is a huge decision, and almost half the nation voted otherwise. You're either going to have 48% happy or unhappy, or 52% happy or unhappy.

[–]derstherower [スコア非表示]  (8子コメント)

Why do you think the polls were so off on this? A few hours ago polls had Remain up by several points and everyone thought it would definitely win. Now Leave is up significantly. What changed?

[–]devinejoh [スコア非表示]  (29子コメント)

Has no one brought up the fact that Scotland might not want to go along with this? With the way they voted I would think there will be a call for another referendum.

Edit: it will be interesting in a few hours when London opens up, carney better be ready to act. Just an awful result.

[–]Precursor2552The banhammer sends its regards[S] [スコア非表示]  (17子コメント)

It is a very common question actually. Salmond has said Nicola will call for a new referendum.

[–]the_dog1 [スコア非表示]  (10子コメント)

And Scotland very well could actually leave this time as well. The uneasiness about Scotland's relationship with the Union after independence was pretty sizable.

Damn, the English just voted themselves out of Europe and possibly great Britain as well. I hope getting rid of Brussels was worth it.

[–]PenguinTod [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

Scotland divorcing the UK and seeking admittance to the EU is a potential disaster of its own. The precedent it could set would certainly make Spain take note if it ever decides it might want to leave.

[–]sagan_drinks_cosmos [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Spain has multiple regional schisms The Catalan people made noise this year and last, but there are Basque separatists as well, and a distinctive culture/language in Galicia, too.

[–]Mapleleaflife [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

The Spanish government has stated in the past that it would only recognize the legitimacy of an independence referendum in Scotland if Westminster was on board as well so as to prevent setting a precedent for the Basque or Catalans

[–]ludgarthewarwolf [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I just realized the current scottish PM is named Sturgeon, and the previous was named Salmon.

[–]derstherower [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Adding to that, one of the major arguments in favor of "Stay" in the Scotland referendum was that if they became independent they wouldn't be in the EU anymore. It'll be interesting to see where this goes.

[–]sagan_drinks_cosmos [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

Scotland went solid Remain. And Donald Trump, who has favored Leave and already has a strained relationship with them, is headed there tomorrow. I expect friction if he can't keep his mouth shut.

[–]savagemoonlight [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yeah I think it's almost inevitable.

[–]84JPG [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

How much time would it take for another referendum?

[–]This_was_hard_to_do [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Scotland (62 - 38%) seems to have been strongly for Remain (here's a map of the votes - credit to u/entropyofdays). Northern Ireland (56% - 44%) seems to be mostly on the Remain camp as well. Is the UK about to get a lot smaller?

[–]missingpuzzle [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

History is made. Whether it be for better or worse I do not know. Time will tell.

I think it's important for those who supported Remain to remember that this is not the end of the world. Tomorrow comes and we will survive whatever comes.

Those who supported Leave must remember that the hard work has not yet begun and their strong and "independent" Britain is not a sure thing.

Also Cameron's head must roll for this.

[–]RayWhelans [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Cameron just said "fundamentals of the economy are strong."

Famous last words of John McCain in 08. Strange he'd echo the exact same quote.

[–]Crymac [スコア非表示]  (8子コメント)

I personally hope Scotland and Northern Ireland break off from the UK. It'll be some poetic retribution for the English who voted leave the EU to see their own Union break up because of it.

[–]BigPhatBoi [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I think they will, Sinn Fein and the SNP are already preparing their campaigns as we speak since they voted to remain. This gives them the perfect opportunity to get out and they will take that opportunity.

[–]Not-A-Real-Subreddit [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

As an Englishman who voted to remain, I desperately hope that Scotland and N.I. don't leave because it'll shift our electoral politics so much further towards the right wing.

[–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

[removed]

    [–]Nc525 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    "The European Union is taking away your freedom!" - Winston Churchill - UKIP

    [–]The_ManRayRay [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

    Well Morgan Stanley is already relocating 2,000 jobs out of London to Frankfurt/Dublin. Probably one of many companies to start moving jobs out of the UK

    [–]DragonPup [スコア非表示]  (26子コメント)

    So with Scotland voting remain, does that mean they leave the UK in favor of the EU, or there'll be more votes for that?

    [–]_HauNiNaiz_ [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Two Labour MPs table a motion of no confidence against leader Jeremy Corbyn over his handling of the referendum.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-mps-table-motion-of-no-confidence-in-jeremy-corbyn-a7100561.html

    [–]PermanentPanda [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Cameron announced he is resigning, but not immediately.

    Says that there should be a new P.M. by the Conservative conference in October.

    He seemed to say that the new P.M. would be responsible for triggering Article 50 and negotiating exit terms with the EU.

    [–]gray1ify [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

    BBC commentator making a good point that's often true with democracy: While the UK has voted to leave the EU, almost half of the British population voted to stay.

    That's certainly going to cause some domestic problems in the long and short term.

    [–]BrazilianRider [スコア非表示]  (13子コメント)

    Prepare for massive over-exaggerations by both sides. The next few days/weeks is going to be full of finger pointing, etc.

    [–]Sterling__Archer_ [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

    Hahah the pound is ALREADY -.13 to 1.35 USD! That's crazy!

    edit: Nikkei is crashing as well! Wow!

    edit 2: DOW and USDI is up! Also up : FTSE 100, DAX, Euro Stoxx 50 I'll try to keep updating these.

    USDI: +2.86% +3.10%

    Euro Stoxx 50: +1.88%

    Nasdaq: -4.49% -4.97% -5.02%

    S&P 500: -4.55% -4.88%

    Nikkei: -7.42% -7.77%

    Euro Index: 1.92% -2.07%

    closed

    DAX: 1.85% (closed)

    DOW: +1.29% (closed)

    FTSE 100: +1.23% (closed)

    [–]Please_PM_me_Uranus [スコア非表示]  (15子コメント)

    This sounds kind of bad to say, but how will this affect the US?

    [–]no-sound_somuch_fury [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

    To give you an idea, one of the reasons the Fed decided to not raise interest rates was because they were afraid of what Brexit would do to the American economy.

    So probably bad.

    [–]bluecamel2015 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

    In fairness the Fed has been on Defcon 1 for 7 years now. They are afraid of almost everything now a days.

    [–]Fedelede [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Since the European market is in meltdown right now, that sounds at least somewhat reasonable for Brexit.

    [–]democraticwhre [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

    Take a vacation to the UK. It'll be cheap to buy British goods but difficult for them to buy ours.

    [–]feralhog [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

    Well, the US futures, a measure for what the markets will open at, are down 4-5% right now. So yeah, we're definitely going to feel this.

    [–]Detrinex [スコア非表示]  (39子コメント)

    NO NO NO NO NO NO!

    Pros for me:

    • News cycle for the next few weeks is going to be pretty interesting and very memorable.

    Cons:

    • Global financial markets dropping hard.

    • Heavy talk of a new Scottish referendum could result in the breakup of the UK (and as an American, I like nice clean maps that don't need to be changed a whole lot).

    • gaaaaaaaah. etc.

    [–]Kronos9898 [スコア非表示]  (20子コメント)

    WILL NO ONE THINK OF THE MAPS!

    Britain being separated into two separate countries just wont look right!

    Imagine the poor Union Jack when Scotland leaves!

    Seriously though, I cant believe they left. Seems like an unwise decision but I guess we will see.

    [–]Detrinex [スコア非表示]  (18子コメント)

    That really gets to me - I like how the Union Jack looks. Getting rid of the Scottish white 'X' on a blue background is going to make it look ugly as hell. Maybe they'll keep the flag "in memory" of Scotland.

    [–]Status_Flux [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

    Maybe they'll at least add the Welsh dragon

    [–]coco_o [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

    God I just thought about incorporating Wales' green background into the jack and shuddered.

    [–]Fedelede [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

    In the 2014 referendum they made it very clear the Union Jack wasn't going to change.

    [–]democraticwhre [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

    More European countries to learn the locations of? Can't do that.

    Do you think the US or UK news cycle is going to be more interesting?

    [–]_watching [スコア非表示]  (12子コメント)

    As someone who likes gov'ts that transcend national lines, a UK exit of the EU and a Scottish exit of the UK is basically the worst

    [–]Arc1ZD [スコア非表示]  (36子コメント)

    So here are my questions:

    Will this decision help or hurt Trump?

    and

    How long until Scotland decides to leave the UK now?

    [–]CANOODLING_SOCIOPATH [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

    It depends on how it is perceived. I'm guessing that there will be panic and we will see extremely obvious economic impacts in the short term. Companies will leave and there will be mass layoffs.

    So it could hurt Trump in the long term because people could be sophisticated enough to recognize that he supported such an awful decision.

    But on the other hand this will likely hurt the US economy and that will likely be blamed on Obama, like how previous EU made problems in the economy were blamed on Obama. That would hurt Clinton.

    We have to remember that the vast vast majority of Americans won't know about this and won't understand it. Those who are informed are unlikely to have their decision on whom they were voting for in November influenced because the politically informed tend to also be the most partisan.

    [–]jikls [スコア非表示]  (17子コメント)

    It helps Trump because it legitimizes the type of politics he advocates.

    [–]MisdemeanorOutlaw [スコア非表示]  (16子コメント)

    Not if their fucking economy tanks...

    [–]29028154 [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

    It depends on if it has effects on the US economy. If it has a noticeable negative effect it will help him. I don't think the electorate would be able to tie any economic downturn to Brexit and then to Trump. They would just blame Obama/the Democrats.

    [–]digital_end [スコア非表示]  (15子コメント)

    Polled to stay, voted to leave. Seems to be high turn out, can't even call it complacency. Just a reflection of peoples views. People in the left who think Trump can't be elected should take note and take it seriously.

    Folks over at Stormfront are having a party 1. The White Nationalists see this as a shift in values towards their xenophobia.

    Wonder if Scotland will consider leaving again to rejoin the EU?

    1-(I'd link source on that, but I'm not linking to that filth.)

    [–]takatori [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Stormfront ... Xenophobia

    Unfortunately, this is a shift in their direction.

    [–]blahblah984 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

    Tomorrow will be interesting as the U.S. stock market opens.

    [–]zouhair [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

    What I think will happen is Cameron will negotiate a way better deal with the EU in the next days and if the EU accepts he'll use it as an excuse to not leave the EU.

    [–]baseball_guy [スコア非表示]  (11子コメント)

    So, what were the primary advantages of this, as heralded by the Leave campaign?

    How did this happen?

    [–]conicalanamorphosis [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

    This was unexpected (gotta love complacency) and it will echo for a while. The British economy is going to be unhappy for a while at least. There's no way the EU can let the Brits have an easy time at the negotiations or come away with anything even close to existing levels of free trade. Unless, of course, the bureaucrats in Brussels are trying to torpedo the EU.

    I think the shellacking the British economy is going to take will maybe give Scotland pause. It's bad enough being part of the Empire as it tries to negotiate an exit from the EU. It ain't much better as a smaller, independant country, trying to get back into the EU. Scotland's best play in this space, I think, would be to negotiate independence from Britain before the exit is official and try to stay in the EU. Seems a very tight schedule, though, since I think the UK has only 2 years left in the EU after the exit clause is invoked.

    There is also a very serious, and concerning, political angle to this. I'm not sure the extent to which xenophobic tendencies played, but certainly nationalistic sentiments were at the fore in this debate. From the outside (and not as an historian) looking in, it seems uncomfortably close to the types of events we've seen in the past that eventually lead to conflict between nations.

    This also significantly weakens the EU at a time when Russia is pushing itself forward. The EU is already struggling with refugees, now they have to contain the damage of a major partner pulling out. Brussels can't speak with a single voice for Europe (and if they could, they're busy elsewhere) in opposition to some of Russia's more interesting adventures for some time at least. I don't imagine Putin is going to try to grow his borders directly again, but I can certainly predict increased efforts to control the political discussion in areas previously considered part of the Soviet sphere of influence. It shouldn't be surprising if a few months from now a few countries have more pro-Russian agitators than in years past. The EU is obviously weakened, it is absolutely in Putin's character to try to advance Russia's interests with this opportunity.

    My last thought is the impact this could have on the US elections. I've seen a couple comments to the effect that this gives credibility to nationalistic leaning parties which would benefit Trump. I disagree, primarily because I think most Americans are unaffected by politics in Europe. They just don't care. The effect it might have on Tump would be negative if the Democratic party could connect any damage to the British economy to nationalist or right-leaning policies, but I'm not sure that is possible.

    [–]Barology [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

    I think the shellacking the British economy is going to take will maybe give Scotland pause. It's bad enough being part of the Empire as it tries to negotiate an exit from the EU. It ain't much better as a smaller, independant country, trying to get back into the EU. Scotland's best play in this space, I think, would be to negotiate independence from Britain before the exit is official and try to stay in the EU. Seems a very tight schedule, though, since I think the UK has only 2 years left in the EU after the exit clause is invoked.

    I think it would make a lot of sense for the EU to make it as painless as possible for Scotland to join. It'd be a valuable counterpoint to the presumably harsh treatment for the leavers.

    There is also a very serious, and concerning, political angle to this. I'm not sure the extent to which xenophobic tendencies played, but certainly nationalistic sentiments were at the fore in this debate. From the outside (and not as an historian) looking in, it seems uncomfortably close to the types of events we've seen in the past that eventually lead to conflict between nations.

    Precisely my thoughts.

    This also significantly weakens the EU at a time when Russia is pushing itself forward. The EU is already struggling with refugees, now they have to contain the damage of a major partner pulling out.

    Brussels can't speak with a single voice for Europe (and if they could, they're busy elsewhere) in opposition to some of Russia's more interesting adventures for some time at least. I don't imagine Putin is going to try to grow his borders directly again, but I can certainly predict increased efforts to control the political discussion in areas previously considered part of the Soviet sphere of influence. It shouldn't be surprising if a few months from now a few countries have more pro-Russian agitators than in years past. The EU is obviously weakened, it is absolutely in Putin's character to try to advance Russia's interests with this opportunity.

    I do think the EU will be paying less attention to Russian mischief in the near term but I don't think NATO will take its eye of the ball.

    My last thought is the impact this could have on the US elections. I've seen a couple comments to the effect that this gives credibility to nationalistic leaning parties which would benefit Trump. I disagree, primarily because I think most Americans are unaffected by politics in Europe. They just don't care. The effect it might have on Tump would be negative if the Democratic party could connect any damage to the British economy to nationalist or right-leaning policies, but I'm not sure that is possible.

    It absolutely isn't a mirror image of the US but I do think you can see some parallels. The inability of experts to convince people seems telling. Emotion very much won over logic. People really need to be thinking about the consequences of their actions. People in democracies really do have the power to do pretty much anything they want. It's vital not to buy into the idea that the world is essentially self correcting and that we can't do very real damage to ourselves.

    [–]NDubbaYa [スコア非表示]  (26子コメント)

    How does the UK maintain access to the EU's single market without abiding by whatever rules the EU sets up? The ball is entirely in the EU's court here and they'll be looking to make an example.

    [–]sweaty_wombat [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Its rather odd if they think that they'll be negotiating individual agreements with each country in the EU.

    The EU now has massive leverage over the UK in pretty much every aspect I can think of.

    You've got the combined power of all the Euro countries and what they can offer against UK negotiating power.

    [–]Banshee__Queen [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    We don't. We have access until we formally leave the EU, at which point we either don't have access or have to make a deal to gain access again, and I doubt the EU will be very willing to cut us some slack. I'm very sure the EU will make an example of us to other countries, otherwise more countries will wish to leave.

    [–]ColdFire86 [スコア非表示]  (20子コメント)

    Scotland, Ireland, Wales, and even London are now all calling for votes to break away from the UK.

    The United Kingdom has ceased to exist over night.

    [–][削除されました]  (17子コメント)

    [removed]

      [–]RayWhelans [スコア非表示]  (8子コメント)

      So I'd be lying if I wasn't experiencing a certain degree of schadenfreude with all the smug behavior on the other side of the pond about Trump and our supposed idiocy.

      I read the UK and EU regarded Trump as a national IQ test. Fair enough, little did they know that they were about to fail their own IQ test.

      This is such a comically stupid economic mistake. But if the people of the UK believe it's worth the social advantages and quality of life changes, then so be it I suppose.

      Perhaps many of us underestimating how much economic pain a country is willing to inflict on themselves to claim independence over their own country.

      [–]BixKoop [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

      The funny thing? There was only a vote because Cameron wanted to use the referendum as a political tool like with the 2014 referendum.

      It backfired, badly.

      We'll remember David Cameron as the biggest idiot in British political history. The man who accidentally ended the United Kingdom.

      [–]2rio2 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      Absolutely. He'll be remembered as fondly as Neville Chamberlain.

      [–]themagicalrealist [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      I'm shocked that Wales was so strongly in favor of Leave considering just how much they depend on the huge amount of funds that come from the EU.

      [–]TheEmoSpeeds666 [スコア非表示]  (11子コメント)

      The pound is $1.33 on the dollar.

      This is the worst decision our country will ever make.

      If it turns out that the young voted Remain more than Leave, then I am going to be so angry.

      [–]Masterzjg [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

      The young voting Remain and the old voting Leave is a certainty. What's more interesting is the margin.

      [–]BUSean [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

      Another vote in favor of a return to a past that isn't real.

      [–]mig3535 [スコア非表示]  (38子コメント)

      As an American can someone explain why Britain wanted to leave the EU and what benefits it would have?

      [–]NFB42 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      A large part of the reason no one mentions:

      Because a whole generation of European politicians have used 'Brussels' as a politically convenient scapegoat to deflect criticism away from themselves.

      Basically, any unpopular big government regulation wanted by the left, any unpopular free trade pro-business law wanted by the right, they all get shipped off to Brussels.

      But unlike what some will make it sound like, there isn't some unelected aristocracy ruling in Brussel. People vote and elect the European parliament, they vote and elect their own governments which then create and agree to every single EU law and treaty (and many EU decisions need unanimous consent). It are the same local parties and the same local governments elected by the people doing this, but by out-sourcing the decision making process to Brussels (which low-information voters never pay attention to) they can hide their own responsibility to the majority will still pleasing their base.

      And as euroscepticism rose, this self-serving behaviour only continued as few politicians are willing to stand up and make a full-throated defence of the EU. They just pay lip service to euroscepticism and talk about EU reform while never acknowledging that they are the sole architects and the sole people responsibly for everything the EU does and is and has ever done and was.

      You can see a bit of a similar process in America with the talking point of blaming "Washington" or blaming "Washington elites". But the difference is, Americans actually pay attention to what happens in Washington and see it as a part of their own country's politics. Whereas Europeans don't pay attention to Brussels and see it as a foreign country.

      [–]grass_type [スコア非表示]  (9子コメント)

      There's two narratives.

      • The "nationalist" narrative is that the EU allows too many people to immigrate to the UK, and this is causing a burden on British services, like the NHS.
      • The "deficit" narrative is that the EU isn't actually as democratic as it claims to be, and that decisions that affect Britain are being made by French, German, etc. people who may not have their interests at heart.

      The nationalist narrative is more or less objectively wrong- the NHS is struggling because a right-wing government is slashing its funding, not because of immigration.

      The deficit narrative is... probably not completely wrong, but also not completely right, either. The ugly truth is that, for the EU to be successful, European countries need to see each other like US states see each other, not as foreign nations. That's a hard psychological shift to make.

      [–]mfigroid [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      The ugly truth is that, for the EU to be successful, European countries need to see each other like US states see each other, not as foreign nations.

      This is exactly it. They are not truly united.

      [–]Kersplit [スコア非表示]  (21子コメント)

      The irony is that a lot of the pro Brexit faction was based on 'UK first' rhetoric and the fallout may well crash their economy and dissolve the UK marking an end to Great Britain.

      [–]Fedelede [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

      David Cameron is screwed. The Labour Party is in disarray, and the next PM is either going to be Gove or Johnson.

      Jesus Christ, today is depressing.

      [–]MetroidMuscle [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      Cameron gambled on a fart and shit all over the British economy. Good work, Dave. Feckin' genius.

      [–]TheArtificialAmateur [スコア非表示]  (34子コメント)

      Jesus Christ about 99% of the comments on here are just saying how this was the worst decision in UK history with no actual discussion.

      [–]dogemaster68 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      Well anyone that thought the grand European Project and by extension globalization was going to continue unabated and without a hitch was wrong. This is one bump in a much longer road.

      [–]sean_incali [スコア非表示]  (8子コメント)

      What's really interesting is the map showing who voted to remain vs leave.

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-map-poll-live-latest-brexit-remain-leave-a7093886.html

      Country divided north and south.

      [–]CursedNobleman [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

      Scotland, North Ireland, and London vote to stay. Most everywhere else is leave.

      [–]sonickirbypokesmash [スコア非表示]  (20子コメント)

      This will definitely increase the right's power in Europe. Scary times for those of us on the left.

      [–]bluecamel2015 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

      While it is a too complicated to put everything as Left v Right you make a solid point. Europe has been seeing a resurgence in their right-wing and it seems history will look at Merkel's insanely stupid handling of the refugee crisis as the big push that got the ball rolling.

      [–]columbo222 [スコア非表示]  (25子コメント)

      Young people overwhelmingly voted to stay (~61%), older voters chose to leave. Something about that rubs me the wrong way. Not saying that older folks shouldn't have a vote obviously, but something about the motives behind their choice.

      [–]Fozzz [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

      Also interesting that Scotland and major British cities voted to stay. Was mainly rural Britain that voted to leave. Surely ethnic nationalism isn't driving the leave vote, right? lol

      [–]BrazilianRider [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

      People say this about every decision where the youth vote one way and the older voters go the other.

      [–]wh40k_Junkie [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      Well the old make the decisions and the young deal with the consequences

      [–]TheBigFinn [スコア非表示]  (13子コメント)

      As an Irish American, I can say it's been my dream to see the North and South become whole. Before the referendum, I thought it would never happen; now, after Brexit, it's a real possibility.

      Northern Ireland is the poorest of the four countries in the UK while Republic of Ireland is one of the most well off countries in the EU. I could see the Northern Irish voting to be apart of the Republic based off of this vote. Brexit was carried to its pyrrhic victory by the English. Northern Ireland mostly voted to remain. I shall be very interested to see what will happen in the future.

      [–]bluecamel2015 [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

      If Scotland leaves N. Ireland is 100% out.

      [–]asaber1003 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      scotland is probably already working on the referendum lmfao, they are getting the fuck outta there.

      [–]progress10 [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

      Scotland is out of there as soon as they can get a campaign together.

      [–]Short_Term_Account [スコア非表示]  (17子コメント)

      Without GB in the EU, Germany will dominate Europe. Not that it wants to, but it will have to.

      [–]Val_Hallen [スコア非表示]  (14子コメント)

      That has never once been an issue...

      [–]Netwealth5 [スコア非表示]  (11子コメント)

      As an American, I trust Angela more than Boris not to do stupid shit.

      [–]Veefy [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

      Imagine being able to go back in time and troll Hitler in his bunker in the last days of the war by telling him that Germany will dominate Europe in 2016 and after he gets all excited by the news, give him the actual context behind the statement.

      [–]Piddler4 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      Ireland welcomes British refugees!

      [–]thejukeboxromeo [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

      Next five years of my life I had a plan for, first time I had some semblance of what I wanted to do with myself. Pretty much down the shitter after tonight, don't think I've ever been this angry/upset over politics

      [–]MattStalfs [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

      What was your plan? If you don't mind my asking

      [–]thejukeboxromeo [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

      Finish my masters, work for a year and start a PhD in 2017. All the funding I was looking at is European based and no one's going to be hiring in a recession

      [–]Zulban [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

      I thought you were being alarmist but that sounds pretty shit for you.

      [–]Collin924 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

      You and plenty of other uni grads are the people that Remain should have given a megaphone. You could have totally put a positive spin on the EU: "Look at how our young people can find great opportunity in Europe, working together with our neighbors to innovate etc etc."

      [–]JooJoona [スコア非表示]  (12子コメント)

      It's so close to 50/50 I think the whole thing is a big failure. The public clearly does not know what it wants, making a big decision like leaving the EU on the basis of a tiny margin is not a good call.

      [–]Enverex [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

      I voted out, but I agree. For a significant change from the status quo I would expect a majority (75/80%+) vote in favour of that change.

      [–]RoryTik [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

      Is this a binding vote? If so, how long would the exit take?

      [–]skbl17 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      It's a nonbinding vote, but both pro-Leave and pro-Remain politicians have called for the result to be honored.

      The exit won't be immediate; it will take at least two years, as the UK has to go through the Article 50 exit process.

      [–]Telefunkin [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      American here: I've read into some of what's going on and what the media predicts will happen. What is the consensus among regular citizens? Is it as divided and heated as the media makes it?

      [–]GuyOnTheLake [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      And that's it. BBC is reporting that "It is mathematically impossible for remain to win".

      [–]imboss [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

      Shouldn't have Cameron made a statement by now?

      [–]2rio2 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      Still crying most likely. Only question if he resigns today or tries to draw this out and fight it down the line.