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White Hat Siphoning has Occurred. What Now? — Lefteris Karapetsas (blog.slock.it)

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[–]insomniasexx 71ポイント72ポイント  (21子コメント)

I am ready to move past this. I really want to move past this. Not to forget about it—to move forwards and upwards and put it in our past and grow from it.

While I applaud the team for taking initiative and reacting to another attack on The DAO, it now becomes obvious that that cannot be the only action taken. We simply cannot stay gridlocked forever with however many attackers are now floating around.

I have more fear of what a long-standing series of attacks and counter attacks will do to this community, and it's not about the lost ETH. I fear that this will engulf us, divide us, and endlessly distract us from building, fixing, and growing.

It has been 5 days now. 130 hours, to be precise. In those 5 days a massive amount of developers, researches, and community members have been completely focused on The DAO. News that is 12 hours old is out of date, news that is 24 hours old is already in the history books.

Some of what has come out has positive benefits. We have decoded and explained how to prevent recursive bugs in future contracts. We have proposed solutions for better Solidity and dev tools. But we have also seen how quickly a community can be degraded by trolls, how quick people are to blame and take sides, and how quickly misinformation can spread.

Can we continue like this for 1 month? 2 months? 3 months? How long? How long until our community stagnates because no new people want to take part in this mess? How long until we are so exhausted that we stop building and iterating and dreaming? How long until your opinion on this situation decides whether someone helps you or hurts you in the future? Furthermore, will blogs write about your new project if The DAO is what is getting the clicks? Will you still develop a tool or service if you can't get a simple feedback conversation going on reddit because it's drowned out by The DAO?

Frankly, we cannot let the drama of this situation distract us any longer. The most unfortunate side effect from this has nothing to do with a fork or any amount of ETH: its' the lack of empathy, lack of long-term vision, and it's forgetting why we are all here. We all want Ethereum to thrive. We need to return to focusing on the future...today.

Let's use this experience as a massive stepping stone to a better Ethereum. Better tools, better code, better developers, better auditors, better community members, better everything. We can only do that by moving forward. And the quickest way to move forward is with a hard fork.

[–]tooManyCoins- 20ポイント21ポイント  (11子コメント)

Very good points. The longer we drag this out, the more damage is done to the community and its growth stunted for the duration.

I worry though, if we hard-fork, who do we lose from this community?

[–]commonreallynow 18ポイント19ポイント  (9子コメント)

I worry though, if we hard-fork, who do we lose from this community?

Anyone hoping to deploy (or use) dapps that are a clear and present danger to the ethereum network. No one really phrases it like that though. The issue (I believe) is that it is very hard to identify what dapps will be considered a material danger to the network. Whatever the qualification might be, evidently theDAO heist somehow qualified (as evidenced by the community reaction).

At the end of the day though, if a dapp threatens the network, it is only reasonable that the network act in its own self-interest, rather than committing Seppuku on the sword of anarcho-capitalism.

[–]ecafyelims 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm worried about another fork the next time some company makes a bad contract like the DAO and wants to undo the consequences.

[–]commonreallynow 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Your concern about bad contracts is valid, which is why there's already a lot of attention and effort being directed towards making it safer to write simple contracts. More complex contracts will need to be limited to smaller amounts of ETH until better developer tools are ready.

But you need not worry about unwarranted future forks. It seems very clear that a fork will only ever happen if inaction is a more serious threat than the fork itself.

[–]sfultong -1ポイント0ポイント  (5子コメント)

if a dapp threatens the network

Let's be clear here. You mean, if a dapp threatens the market price. And I'm not really opposed to that viewpoint, either.

[–]commonreallynow 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

No, I really did mean the network, because market price is subsumed as a threat to the network (since a price crash makes it unprofitable to mine and thus reduces security). There are other more subtle threats, for example, theDAO investors represent users, developers and financiers of the eco-system, which directly and indirectly affect the future of Ethereum. The staggering loss of so much human capital (in terms of their skills and advocacy) as well as financial capital (in terms of the ETH locked in theDAO), would retard Ethereum in many ways, especially at a crucial time when competitors (e.g. Rootstock) are on the horizon.

There's also many other threats, such as the danger of so much stolen ETH being in the control of an actively hostile person(s). And we know they are hostile to the network due to their recent actions (i.e. by preventing the White Hats from being able to withdraw without a soft-fork). This threat alone is enough to warrant defensive actions by the community.

[–]sfultong 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

And we know they are hostile to the network due to their recent actions

I'm uncomfortable with people using the "hostile" label. It's a fairly tenuous chain of logic, as I see it.

If the attacker retains control over a huge portion of ether, then eventually they may sell it. If they sell it, it may cause the price of ether to go down. If the price goes down, some people involved in the ecosystem may leave.

I suppose there is a point of view that any time people who lose eth invested in a contract in a way they think is unfair, the community is harmed.

Another perspective is that a community is strengthened when foolish people lose so much that they are forced to withdraw from it.

I'm not too opposed to a hard fork at this point, but I worry there's a culture of expectation developing that the community will always be there to provide human arbitration whenever someone thinks something unfair has happened. This may be a special case, but going forwards the community will have to ask itself what loss is too great not to intervene, and I don't think there is any good line to draw there.

[–]commonreallynow 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

There's more mischief that the attacker could do with that much ETH. Dumping it is just one possibility.

The real concern is network security. Right now it doesn't cost that much (compared to Bitcoin) to attack the network. A large price drop would make it even cheaper (by making it less profitable for some miners to keep mining).

Just know that this isn't only about investors getting their money back. More is at stake than just ETH price, which is why so many people are in favour of a fork.

[–]sfultong 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

More is at stake than just ETH price

But doesn't it all hinge on the price? Perhaps I'm being dense, but it seems like price is the root issue of all the other concerns.

There's more mischief that the attacker could do with that much ETH. Dumping it is just one possibility.

Can you elaborate?

[–]commonreallynow 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Price is not the root issue because Ethereum gets its value from being a platform for smart contracts. So the price of ETH only matters as an incentive to secure the network. But that's just one piece of a much larger puzzle. You also need a good eco-system (including infrastructure and developer tools). The factors that make theDAO so exceptional is that it was an investment fund expressly earmarked to develop the eco-system. Having those funds stolen not only deprives the eco-system of financial capital, but it also puts that same money into the hands of an explicitly hostile attacker.

We can't accurately predict what the attacker would do with that ETH, but so far they have showed clear intent to use it to undermine the network. I would recommend reading the description of "wallet poisoning", found here: http://forums.prohashing.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=871

[–]cdetrio 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I worry though, if we hard-fork, who do we lose from this community?

A few pseudo-religious libertarian wackos who believe that users who put their money in buggy contracts should pay for their sins and be forced to suffer by sacrificing their capital to watch it burn on the altar of "immutability".

Most frustrating about anti-forkers is their literal interpretation of the Principle of Immutability. The intent behind immutability is that people's accounts and funds are safeguarded from theft and tampering! No reasonable person would argue that exploiting a bug in a contract to steal ETH is not theft and tampering. Anti-forkers misapply the whole principle, as if the intent is to ensure that bugs in the application layer can never being fixed. What's the point of immutable bugs, and who benefits from refusing to fix them?

Of course, they have no opposition whatsoever to rollbacks and hard forks when its necessary to fix a bug in the protocol. But fundamentally there is no difference between bugs in the protocol layer and bugs in the application layer. They just conflate "altering the ledger" with "fixing a bug" because in bitcoin there is no application layer (so all bugfix-forks are patches to its protocol).

[–]eze111 24ポイント25ポイント  (1子コメント)

This. It's been long enough and we've learned a lot about security. Time to move on.

Also as another poster mentioned below, a hard fork will distance Ethereum from the Bitcoin mindset. Let's do it.

[–]cHaTrU 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

We should actively try to get away from the current bitcoin mindset.

[–]latetot 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well said - my only concern is who we would lose in a hard fork. If there are some core devs and the makerdao project that might leave unless we try soft fork first, I would try it. I'm not so worried about the amount of time if the devs are really sure a soft fork could work securely and then we just wait around for the time windows to run out. But I do admit that I do not understand why a SF is more palatable if it achieves the same goal as an HF. It seems more semantic than substantive.

[–]Recovery1980 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (5子コメント)

This argument is like leaving a spouse of 20 years and telling them a week later to move on. Enough money earned in 150 lifetimes are at risk here. Move on if you want to, some of us think this thing cannot be left to stand!

[–]insomniasexx 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Once you decide that your relationship is over, you should start looking towards the future. Looking forward and moving on does not mean forgetting about the past: the good, the bad, what you learned, what went wrong, etc. It simply means deciding to start to rebuild and be better and whatever it takes in order to make sure your life is okay and you won't make the same mistake again.

The worst thing you could do once your relationship is over is sit there and keep fighting and fighting and fighting and obsessing and fighting. A fight is okay. Another fight might feel good and cathartic for you. But sitting for weeks and weeks and months and months and just fighting and re-hashing the same thing over and over serves no purpose, especially when both parties have decided that it's over. You can fight to save something. Fighting after you are both on the same page about whether or not something should continue is more hurtful than helpful.

[–]sjalq 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Whaaaat is being discussed here??

[–]amerinsyd 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

She's arguing that we should move forward with the hardfork because it would be the quickest option. This option would let people have their Eth returned also, so I don't understand where you're coming from.

[–]Recovery1980 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

Sorry, then I misunderstand. I have been arguing with the "let them burn" crowd too long.

[–]NewToETH 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Many of those people have left us to go back to their home /r/bitcoin

I'm not saying everyone who opposes the fork is a Bitcoiner, but most Bitcoiners oppose any fork.