[Serious] UK citizens, what is your stance on the Brexit vote, and why?

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SirSandGoblin · 1日前

I think we have embarrassed ourselves and that whatever the outcome, this country is going to be a less pleasant one.

Edit: Americans, I get it, this could describe the situation there, you can stop telling me now

UberNoobSB · 21時間前

I hate it and i'm embarrassed by the whole ordeal.

You're voting to leave? Well you must be a racist. Voting to stay? You obviously don't care about your country and it's people.

It's a farce. There has been zero facts and the whole thing has been fueled by attacks on the other campaign, rather than defending their own. We're being asked to make a huge decision without being given any solid facts whatsoever. If we can't discuss the issue like grown ups then they shouldn't be discussing it at all.

Edit: zero facts is an over statement, but not far off. My point is the majority of the referendum has been based of misleading facts or downright lies, and very little emphasis has been put on the facts that matter

Edit 2: First gold, at least it was for something respectable! For those of you interested by the way I was planning to vote remain, but I still think the whole referendums been god awful.

norwichpubtours · 23時間前

I think a false dichotomy has arisen in the UK, whereby anyone who wants "out" is an elderly, anti-immigrant Sun reader and anyone who wants "in" is a naive, fearful youth who has been fooled by the government's lies.

Whilst there are definitely people who fit into these categories, in reality both camps are incredibly diverse in their demographic. I, and most of my liberal friends, are voting to stay in, but the "stay" campaign has done nothing to legitimize that decision. Similarly, however, I have lots of left-leaning friends who consider the Brexit vote an opportunity to knock the Tory government from its pedestal and think the UK leaving the EU will do exactly that.

Ultimately, it comes down to selfish reasons for me. I take people on historical tours of pubs - most of those people tend to be tourists, and I worry that tourism might be affected if we leave. It might not be, either. There are lots of unknowns, but the only thing I think we can all agree on is that both campaigns have only served to muddy the waters. This is a decision that should be rooted in facts, not fear mongering and doomsday predictions. But alas, this is politics, and politics is rarely concerned about the facts.

Cheeky edit: Can I just say how rare it is, these days, to have a sensible discussion about politics on the internet. Whatever your opinion, if the public debate about this referendum had been half as respectful and insightful as this one, we'd all be far more equipped to make an informed decision. I feel invigorated.

23時間前

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Danibaldi · 22時間前

From a different perspective, I am a Welsh nationalist and will be voting to Remain because Wales would be on the brink of an economic collapse if we leave the EU. We get significantly more out of the EU than we put in, purely financially, and I have no faith whatsoever in the UK Government to replace that funding. We get so much out of the EU because we have some of the highest poverty levels in the whole of Europe - the London-centric UK Government seemingly has no interest in rectifying the structural reasons for Wales' poverty and poor economic performance.

Alongside that, I think the EU is fundamentally a force for good in the world. Freedom of movement and a peaceful, stable Europe are two achievements that cannot be underestimated, and although I do not agree with everything the EU stands for (TTIP, for example, is a nightmare) I want Wales to play its part in it.

Regardless of the way the UK votes on Thursday, my long term aim is for Wales to be a Member State of the European Union in its own right.

_AxeOfKindness_ · 19時間前

If you want to see all of the people who support the "leave" vote, sort by controversial.

1日前

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SDOChlo · 1日前

I was on the Leave side for the majority of the time I've been thinking about it but recently I've been persuaded to stay in simply because I don't believe that A) the EU membership is our biggest problem or B) leaving the EU would solve our actual problems.

KarmaAndLies · 18時間前

The EU has been a force for good within the UK. I'll name some examples:

European Data Protection Directive became the UK Data Protection Act 1998.
European Convention on Human Rights became the UK Human Rights Act 1998.
Articles 81 and 82 of the Treaty of Amsterdam became the UK Competition Act 1998.
Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Directive became the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999.
Transfers of Undertakings Directive became the Protection of Employment 2006.
Directive 2011/83/EU became the Enterprise Act 2002.
European Communities Act 1972 became the The Copyright and Rights in Performances (Research, Education, Libraries and Archives) Regulations 2014, The Copyright and Rights in Performances (Disability) Regulations 2014 and The Copyright and Rights in Performances (Quotation and Parody) Regulations 2014 .
Alternative and Online Dispute Resolution become the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

And on, and on. I'm sure others can name countless additional examples. But my point is that a lot of what people take for granted as consumer law, employee protections, privacy protections, or limits on corporations come not from the UK government, they come from the EU. If nothing else, a lot of these directives strengthened areas of the UK's law and in almost all cases in favor of the "little guy" (private citizens, as opposed to the "big guy" companies/governments).

-Fen- · 23時間前

I live in Wales, we are more supported by the EU than by London. There's really no contest about which way to vote if you're in Wales or NI. Stay. If leave hits then it's just going to be a matter of time before Scotland leaves the UK and then it'll be time for Wales to campaign to do so as well.

Also, not needing a visa to go visit Europe? That's just amazing, I wouldn't want to give that up for the world.

Edit: Inbox replies disabled. I've written a very abbreviated version of what I think and feel with generalisations with this message and I don't want to get drawn into a debate or a discussion.

this-guy- · 23時間前

The core points of the Brexit campaign are:

to stop giving money to the EU when we could spend it instead.
To stop foreigners coming in and taking low paid jobs and houses, also using the NHS
To generally make Britain more economically independent and able to set terms on trade and employment law.
To return Britain to the way was in the past. Independent, self governing and financially strong.

My problems with these:

we pay money to be in a club, like being a member of a Gym, you pay money to use the facilities. Now imagine we get a vote on the gyms direction - want more hot yoga or kettlebells, we get a vote . The assumption that "Norway and Switzerland do it alone" , in fact they also pay to use the facilities but they don't get any say on policy. We do.
EU migrants - if we still want full trading access to the EU region the migration laws are the exact same. If the UK had the same net EU immigration rate as Switzerland, it would mean nearly 400,000 more EU migrants a year! Any workers in Britain pay taxes, and that rightfully gives access to the NHS.
To dictate trade terms with (lets say) China or USA, we must determine relative economy values. The balance of trade. Currently we trade on equal terms with them, as part of a large trading bloc. If we separate then our trade ratio gives us terrible negotiating power.
"make Britain Great again!" the 50s, 60s and 70s in Britain were socially grim and our financial situation was very dire. We now live in a global mega corporate world, financial institutions now run public policy across borders. we are at the mercy of corporate interests but It's easier for them to bully a loner than a gang. Rupert Murdoch has admitted exactly this - he can bully the UK govt. but not the EU.

Tl;dr - Remain

frenchbritchick · 21時間前

I can't understand why we're being asked to vote to be honest. What the fuck do "everyday people" know about the tremendous consequences brexit would have?!

Surely this is something that experts need to decide, not random Kate from next door or average Steve from down the road?

mullak33 · 21時間前

I'm being completely and utterly serious, and me, and most people I know, don't have a clue.

20時間前

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EmperorKira · 21時間前

I've voting remain. Yes europe is a clusterfuck but the problems it has can be solved, and the problems we will get if we leave will not be. I have real issues with Brussels, but the good outweighs the bad.

Also i hate this whole fucking immigration scare tactic. Even if i was super anti-immigration, the whole syrian refugee flood is a bullshit scare tactic. Do people forget we have the channel anyway? Also we guard the french side of the border in a special deal we have with them. We could lose that anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if immigration become WORSE by leaving. And if you worry about EU immigration? Well i guess the 2 million+ UK citizens leaving in spain and france better head home then.

dugsmuggler · 18時間前

I'm English.

I work in England for an British company, fitting Dutch made materials onto German made vehicles for a German headquatered multinational that is 75% owned by the French government.

My wife is an EU citizen.

My livelihood and family life depends on free trade and freedom of movement.

Remain.

dan_142 · 1日前

As an economics student, I can confidently say that almost everything I've read from the leave campaign, at least from a financial standpoint, has been a huge mistake at best, or at worst they are just plain lying to the people. Add on the fact that we will need to keep open borders if we want access to the single market, and I cannot see any reasonable reason to vote leave. I'm not suggesting the remain campaign have behaved entirely reasonably either, but many of their claims have at least some evidence to back them up.

Edit: Should've figured this would strike a chord. I'm not claiming to be an expert, just throwing my opinion out there, feel free to disagree.

Edit 2: John Oliver has said it better than I can, I encourage you to watch the following video: https://youtu.be/iAgKHSNqxa8

barrytrousers · 21時間前

I think people are angry in the UK for two reasons...

1) It feels like Europe is slowly becoming controlled by a single government. Most people have no idea who runs it, how they got there, or what they do.

2) Immigration is out of control. David Cameron promised in 2009 that if he became Prime Minister he would bring net migration to less than 100,000. Last year is was 330,000.

I'm still voting remain though because I think the EU has brought a lot of good to Europe, and we can fix the problems we have.

SakhosLawyer · 1日前

The people telling me to vote leave are Nigel Farage, Katie Hopkins, The Sun 'newspaper' and my dad. Why the fuck would I listen to them about something like this? To be honest most of the reasons for/against are vague or seem like assumptions or bullshit reasons. Things are fine as they are and I see no reason to leave, and the people telling me to leave tend to ne idiots anyway

arturocarlos54 · 16時間前

Most of the replies here seem to be "Remain!". I usually wouldn't bother with replying to a thread like this but I feel like the leave side needs at least something said for them. Wall of text on the way, TLDR down below.

I want to leave, and on Thursday I will vote to leave. I am 20, middle class, live in central England. I am not a racist. I don't care about in-EU migration.

My stance is that simply put I like Europe, I like the idea of a European state and given the chance I would vote for a federalised EU with its own defense force, welfare, head of state, common language (Even if it was French, or even German), taxation and all the trappings of a nation-state (provided there was adequate "state" governments for the various nations, not unlike the US system).

But the EU as it stands now exists in a sort of political superstate (both a country and not, with and without a citizenry) where it passes laws without scrutiny or accountability. The correlation between the European election cycle and European law and policy is obscure in places and nonexistent in others. It both is and isn't a country with national interests.

The interests of Brussels do not correlate with the interests of the European people. It has its own set of interests and they consist of

Preserve the EU
Expand the influence of the European Government
Coalesce the EU into a nation of some kind

On their own these interests are innocuous at first glance. Of course it is in their interests to survive and thrive and I already said that I don't mind a Federated European Union on paper. But in practice these interests put them at odds with the national governments of member states. Without a real democratic mandate, the EU is only indirectly interested in the welfare of EU citizens.

The interests above mean that the EU is incentivised to expand its sphere of influence into new countries instead of working with the countries it already includes. Instead of working with countries like (example) the UK it is in the EUs interest to bring more, potentially unsuitable countries into the European parliament so that it can edge out uncooperative nations on the debate floor. It is in the EU's interest to keep expanding rather as a means to achieve its goals, rather than simply to help its existing citizens.

What's more, the actual laws that get passed in Brussels are often drafted by lobbyists. That doesn't happen in WASHINGTON. The degree of sanctioned, polite corruption and cronyism in Brussels beggars belief. The second largest lobbying industry in the world is in Brussels, only narrowly beaten by DC, and even in DC a lobbyist can't actually draft a bill. British politics suffer from a pretty extreme "London Bubble" and it's true that civil servants and politics have a revolving door between them and big business, but sanctioned lobbying is very difficult and severely limited in scope. I value that. It is true that most politicians are Etonian-Oxford wankers but if you want to run for office in Britain you do not need to do the "fundraising" money-for-favours it's-bribery-but-noone-cares bullshit so prevalent elsewhere, in DC and Brussels.

Legality =/= morality and making bribery legal does not make it not bribery.

So, it should be clear that the "Federal European Union" I envisaged above would involve a great deal of reform towards transparency, democratic legitimacy and a real mandate to its citizens.

At this point I should say that I wish we didn't have this vote, and somebody else did. If another core member state had this kind of vote (France, Sweden, Germany, net contributors and economic cornerstones of Europe), I would be rubbing my hands with glee for months. At present we have a sort of dichotomy to face.

If we vote to leave, then it legitimises Greece's longstanding wish to leave. And that is dangerous. The potential for a cascading route away from the EU would be the only thing that could really scare Brussels into real reform of the highest level of government. Us leaving alone, maybe not, but the threat of two or three countries leaving in quick succession would undermine the European market confidence and force Brussels to action.

Long story short, if we vote to leave we may inadvertently create the kind of EU that I want to be a part of. But if we vote to stay, we will kill all chances of that ever happening.

As many US citizens are painfully aware, even when everyone knows the system is crooked, if the only thing that can change the crooked system is the system itself, it will never change. Every US citizen knows Super-PACs and "fundraisers" are undemocratic legalised bribes. Most of them know the electoral college is a stupid system. Most every Brit knows that our first past the post elections where a party with 36.9% of the vote gets 51% of the seats and a party with 12.7% of the votes gets 0 seats are FUCKING BONKERS.

But if it is up to the party that wins with just 36.9% to change the system, of course they aren't going to. Same for Brussels. Nothing will change without major external stimuli.

But Britain leaving would damage the EU. We have the largest financial centre outside of the NYSE, more oil than the rest of the EU combined, huge reserves of shale gas, a world famous culture of higher education and research sector (Oxford and Cambridge are household names around the world, while Brunel, the LSE and others are well known leaders in their fields). We manufacture almost as much stuff as Germany, consume almost as much as Americans do, and are the EU's primary gateway into both the Commonwealth (includes such tiny insignificant places as Canada, India, Pakistan, Australia, and totals 17% world GDP) and the USA. Almost all transatlantic internet traffic goes through Britain. Transatlantic flights. Major shipping ports. Aircraft carriers and power projection capability. Nuclear Deterrent.

The EU could survive us leaving, obviously, but it would feel us go. Britain is the fastest growing economy in the EU, and a significant net contributor to the EU project. So, I don't buy the "we don't care, we didn't like you guys anyway" and "it hurts you more than it hurts us" line that European institutions have taken in this debate. Many European economies are limping by at best, some exist on a knife edge. Those voices do have a role in this debate, but it should be conciliatory, not adversarial as it has been.

I also do not trust the mainstream British media on the subject. My perspective is that the remain campaign has, instead of trying to have an intellectually honest discussion, made a deliberate effort to muddy the waters as much as possible. Their strategy has seemed to be "make it as confusing and difficult as possible to form an informed opinion, stifle debate, the peasants don't know what they want" because they don't trust the public with this kind of intellectual decision. A side effect of the "London Bubble" where those who walk in the corridors of power think the people of "the North" (ie. not London) are lazy morons and most of the British people grow to resent politics and politicians because they so obviously avoid having an honest dialogue when it doesn't suit them.

It seems to me that the Remain campaign is more focused on confusing people, and bullying them (Osborne's punitive budget), because they know that scared people are more likely to vote for the status quo. The "Most Economists" "This Economist!" "But That Economist!" conversation seems like an exercise in this type of disinformation. It is reminiscent of KGB disinformation strategies. Instead of creating one big narrative that can be exposed, lie constantly, all the time, from different angles, say conflicting things, confuse people, and generally make it so that the average working guy who can only keep a passing eye on politics doesn't have the time to sift through to the truth. So he gives up and becomes disillusioned, and politicians get carte blanche.

Sure the Leave campaign has run a pretty lowest common denominator fear-mongering campaign but the only way to cut through the noise is to have a clear, simple message you can put forth loudly. The leave campaign has also by and large steered clear of ad hominem attacks, name calling ("Racist!" "Bigot!") and the relentless social signalling of the Remain campaign ("I'm so not racist, look how sorry I am for these people drowning!") which always struck me as an intellectually dishonest way to try to win an argument without finding an answer. Ultimately I would have loved a more factually based, simple, clear set of debates where intellectuals from both sides got a national stage, but instead we have things like Michael Gove taking questions from a crowd. Slimy, dishonest people who see this as a proxy to advance their careers are leading the national debate on this, as are newspaper editors (almost always left, hyper-progressive social signal experts who are just as trapped in the bubble as the politicians). Where are the informed, calm, mediated debates from people who don't necessarily have an agenda other than finding the right answers (academics)? Nowhere. Even the BBC has failed to realise its normal format for shows like Question Time is unsuitable, and people shouting over each other is why we have this mess in the first place.

TL;DR

I'm voting out because I don't want to be a part of the EU in it's current form. I don't think the current EU system is fit for purpose as it progresses towards federalisation and it needs major reform. The only kind of stimulus that would instigate that reform begins with a "Leave" vote. I don't buy the scare mongering on either side, and I accept that in the short run Britain will suffer to exit. It will not destroy us. We are wealthy and well connected even without the EU. Meanwhile the EU is corrupt, and economically flagging. And Brussels has a very weak mandate to the people of Europe.

Thanks for gold!

23時間前

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BadlyDrawnMoustache · 18時間前

It is a shitshow, and there should never have been a referendum on this. The only reason David Cameron called one is because of stupid party politics, not for the good of the country or for democracy or anything like that.

Most people don't know even nearly enough about the EU, how it works, how it benefits us, its long term strategies etc. People genuinely think that the EU 'controls' the UK and that unelected officials in Brussels make up laws and force us to adopt them, which is just utterly untrue. There is so much misinformation that it's scary - democracy is obviously a great thing, but only when the electorate actually have the facts, when the media is unbiased etc. As it stands, people are voting totally blind and ignorant.

The EU does more for our country than our own government, particularly for the poorer areas. If the UK votes out, it means our government will lurch to the right. Even if you're not pro-EU, if you're not keen on the idea of a very right-wing era being ushered in, then vote remain.

18時間前

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DownAndOut2010 · 1日前

Voting Remain. I'm not convinced by Leave, and think that either result preserves the status quo (crappy government Vs crappy EU government) but a Brexit will be more disruptive.

shagwan · 14時間前

I'm voting leave. As I see it my civil liberties are undemocratically fucked two fold currently, I have the EU passing legislation I cannot refute and I have HM Civil Service passing legislation I cannot refute, I'd rather decrease the authoritative powers that be into a smaller cluster, rather than creating Yugoslavia 2.0. Am I frightened of the consequences of giving complete control to the fucktards that govern Britain? Yes I am. Am I worried about initial repercussions to the economy? Yes I am. But as it stands, what do we aspire to become within the EU? Other countries like Switzerland and Norway have a GDP twice as high. Perhaps I'm being optimistic but Britain has a trade surplus in almost every service sector except tourism, we have the ability to do well outside of the EU and smash the glass ceiling that is the EU trading bloc. We have the potential, we are the world’s fifth largest economy and fourth largest military power. One of only five countries with a permanent seat on the UN Security Council. The WTO has driven down trade tariffs and we'll be afforded the opportunity to import far cheaper without European trade quotas cock blocking us and gain far more access to international markets. In regards to immigration, it's not something the fearmongers have frightened me with, but I CAN see it pragmatically. The housing crisis (mostly private but some social) is unable to sustain the type of numbers we are receiving now without an influx from newly registered EU countries. I'm by no means a British nationalist, I just think we can emulate other non EU European countries to increase our standard of living.

JulieStrike2991 · 22時間前

Voting to stay, not least because it makes the most sense politically, economically and otherwise, but also because the leave campaign seems to be pointing a lot of fingers without really offering solutions. It's important to know what you stand for, not just what you stand against.

Many British ties to European have been renegotiated anyway, so a large part of problems those in favour of Brexit seem to point out will be resolved through that. Much of the rest of their problems are issues like UK nationals living abroad 'draining' health care resources, which, to me, doesn't really have too much to do with whether or not Britain is part of the EU.

QuietDove · 23時間前

I'm voting remain but this whole referendum has been disgusting. Scaremongering on both sides, ludicrous promises and divisive debating. The country is going to be changed whatever the result, and it will be changed for the worse.

A whole campaign based on a range of issues is being decided by just one, immigration. Leave just dismissing all of the economic arguments as if they're false is incredibly infuriating.

Shalman3ser · 18時間前

The fact we're even having a referendum at all is political irresponsibility of the worst kind.

The fact Dave and George had to promise it to stave off the political insurrection of their own party tells you more about the state of UK politics than any EU referendum might.

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