全 105 件のコメント

[–]LethnAnarcho-Voluntaryist 15ポイント16ポイント  (12子コメント)

I will be voting to leave, the people who are voting to remain are advocating the creation of an autocratic empire and it is not hyperbole at all to suggest that given that the European Commission is not elected and they're talking about trying to make a European army.

Oh and to the guys below that are worried about 'forcing' other people to go with something they don't agree with. Don't forget, these are the same people who think that we shouldn't have had a vote at all because they didn't want people who wanted to remain independent to have any say.

[–]LigacoI like the flag, don't judge -1ポイント0ポイント  (11子コメント)

Have you considered that it is much more dangerous to leave now than to stay? What I mean is that it seems like two governments give you more freedom than one because they have to keep the other in check. I would not worry if there was a party that would shout freedom but LibDems are dying.

[–]ScreamingUpAtUsClassical Liberal 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

[–]SpanishDukeVisigothic Aristocrat 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't think the coma goes there.

[–]ScreamingUpAtUsClassical Liberal 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, we can't have people in comas around here.

[–]LethnAnarcho-Voluntaryist 4ポイント5ポイント  (7子コメント)

Fear mongering about the unknown doesn't work on an Anarchist when it concerns independence and democracy and no, that's not how the EU works at all, they've been giving money to the quite a lot of people in the UK and spreading their influence. The UK politicians like David Cameron for example are wanting a career in the EU which is why they want to hand over the UK's sovereignty over.

So I don't know where you got the idea of the EU keeping the UK in check is ridiculous, nobody elect the European Commission and the European President, they answer to no one, the UK parliament answers to the UK citizens. So a vote for the European Union would be entirely anti-democratic.

[–]LigacoI like the flag, don't judge -3ポイント-2ポイント  (6子コメント)

Why is it fear mongering to consider the fact that there are no parties which are in favour of more freedom?

[–]LethnAnarcho-Voluntaryist 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

Because this isn't about picking a party, it's about making a declaration of independence and sending a message to both governments that they aren't to take it away.

[–][deleted] 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Sorry I couldn't hear you over the sound of Russian T-80s rolling over my house.

[–]True_KapernicusVoluntaryist 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Really? You really typed that?

[–]LethnAnarcho-Voluntaryist 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Must be an alt. account of David Cameron :P

[–][deleted] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, I had just woke up and thought we were talking about NATO for some reason, just ignore it. I don't really have any problem with dissolving the EU.

[–]TheGreatRohLibertarian Transhumanist 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you mods.

[–]CircadianRadianBlack Flag 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

hmmm...voting for less.

[–]aletoledojustice derives freedom 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

[–]CircadianRadianBlack Flag 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's almost as if the OP is touting Minarchism.

[–]aletoledojustice derives freedom 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

"Leave" right back into the arms of the previous government.

Maybe you guys should form a new political party called the ancaps?

[–]True_KapernicusVoluntaryist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

We're in their arms now, we'll be voting to be less in the arms of the EU, which are greater enemies of liberty.

[–]durdygAnarcho-Capitalist 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

When is the official vote date?

[–]trmapsIndividuals of the world- decentralize! 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

23 June

[–]lappathVoluntaryist 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

At first it was just kind of funny when some "Anarcho-capitalists" came out in support of political action. It was cool to debate them and shove it in their faces about how they were unprincipled for voting. But this is getting really distressing for me! In fact, my mom came into my room to bring me a plate of chicken tendies and I literally screamed at her and hit the plate of chicken tendies out of her hand. She started yelling and swearing at me and I slammed the door on her. I'm so distressed right now I don't know what to do. I didn't mean to do that to my mom but I'm literally in shock from the Brexit vote. I feel like I'm going to explode. Why the fucking fuck are the ANARCHO CAPITALISM mods telling us to vote?! This can't be happening. I'm having a fucking breakdown. I don't want to believe Reddit is so corrupt. I want a stateless future to believe in. I want Admins to step in and enforce TRUE anarcho-capitalism. I cannot fucking deal with this right now. It wasn't supposed to be like this, Trump is a STATIST!!!!! This is so fucked.

[–]TheSpiritof1776Anarcho-Capitalist 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wow... Be nice to your mother.

[–]Menaus42Undecided 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

DROP THE TENDIES

[–]TheWorldToComeAnarcho-Capitalist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Some of us are pragmatists, get off your high horse. If there was a vote to literally execute you and all it took was one vote against and you were allowed to vote would you not vote cause it's against your fucking principles?

Do you use government road, any gov services at all? Hard to be pure in a statist world, voting in self defense is justified, voting to try and reduce government isn't a bad thing.

[–]xfLyFPSNational Libertarian 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Of course that Labour girl got shot and died by a guy who shouted "BRITAIN FIRST". Not a false flag at all.

[–]LethnAnarcho-Voluntaryist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm keeping an eye on this and apparently Britain first have already denounced it, it's also supposedly eyewitness testimony so we don't know for certain if that's what they're saying. Either way the group said they didn't want anything to do with it.

[–]Turagian 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Last time I checked extremists exist so correct, not a false flag.

[–]edgycirclesVoluntaryist 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

God do I hope 'leave' wins. The potential fallout is just so juicy.

Scotland only months ago narrowly voted to stay in the UK. Ironically, Scotland is far further to the left than the rest of the UK and considerably more pro-EU. London acted towards Scotland's vote pretty much exactly the same as the EU is acting right now. Unsubstantiated fearmongering and thinly veiled threats (e.g. Merkel telling the UK that they "won't get a good deal" with the EU if they leave).

I can imagine Scots going beserk. I recall huge argument against Scotland seceeding was that they feared joining the EU was a long and difficult process with no guarantees. It seems to me that some voted not to seceed specifically because they feared getting "cut off" from Europe. And now they have to stay with England AND not be European. Im sure many Scots are not too pleased right now.

I imagine that if Brexit goes through, the calls for a second secession referendum will explode despite people calling the last vote a "once in a generation" event. This time Scotland will probably vote to seceed with a commanding majority. Other indenpendence movements will take a queue from this. Northern Ireland would most likely follow. After that I think things would get very interesting. Catalonia has had seccession efforts suffocated by Spain for ages. The already weak Spanish government will have a hard time keeping a lid on the the ferver of a Catalonia independence movement if Scotland and Northern Ireland are allowed independence.

Catalonian independence would quite possibly be a spark an explosion of indepence fever. Independence movements historically come in clusters so its quite rational to assume this sort of domino effect. Considering that Europe and the EU are pretty much in shambles, this sort of political upheaval could really snowball into something significant. Europe is going to do as Europe has always done and fragment after a few centuries of intense centralization. The EU decends into disarray as member states increasingly reject its authority. The parasites in charge will double down on their efforts to siphon off wealth with what little time they have left, revealing their true nature. The world will watch in awe as all of Europe comes crashing down and we can give everyone a long overdue "well I told ya so" about the EU.

tldr go vote leave so my completely speculative (but plausible?) fantasy can play out

[–]True_KapernicusVoluntaryist 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Northern Ireland will absolutely NOT be influenced to vote to become slave of the Republic. There will only be referendum once there is a clear and widespread desire to join the republic and I think it is currently less than 20%. Remember many of them died to stay in the UK.

It is an entirely different scenario from Scotland.

[–]edgycirclesVoluntaryist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Slave of the republic

Is the republic really that bad? Admittedly don't know a lot about it

Remember many of them died to stay in the UK.

But didnt just as many die to leave? I was there briefly after Scotish vote and definitely picked up on some anti-British/anti-protestant sentiment in certain areas. I was also told that the topic is still taboo in places that experienced a lot of violence relating to the separtist movement such as Derry. I had a couple converstions with drunken Irishmen upset that Scotland didnt take their opportunity to leave. This is of course totally anecdotal but it is worth noting. I think stumbling into conversations at bars about secession is at least somewhat indicative of the hot button topics in a country. I realize that its a totally different situation from Scotland but even 20% is more than enough to raise an eyebrow. By comparison if Texas had 20% support for seccession we'd probably be hearing about it 24/7. It was already big news when the Texan secessionists got a few hundred thousand signatures a couple years ago. Secession is a very touchy subject for obvious reasons and I think you cannot dismiss anywhere with a large separatist sentiment. These sorts of things seem to sit for decades, bubbling just under the surface of polite conversation, before rapidly exploding into civil unrest

[–]True_KapernicusVoluntaryist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Another point about voting - if someone voted for an explicitly ancap party that advocated the removal of suffrage democracy, it would be entirely principled for you to vote for them. You are not participating in the system in the same way when you a voting for its removal and you are not forcing anything on anybody by voting for the removal of the institutions of coercion. A vote for an anarchist party is no more coercion than arguing for anarchy on the internet. It is only against our principles if the party is not anarchist because then you are affirming the validity of democracy and aggressing against those who want government done differently.

[–]coldmug -2ポイント-1ポイント  (52子コメント)

Yes, I've mulled that position over in my head.

But what still keeps me from going to the ballot box is the fact that if my position wins, I'd be enforcing my view on the people who didn't vote to leave, with the backing of government violence. I can't justify doing that, even if it is ultimately for less government.

Edit: Wow, and I thought this is an anarcho-capitalist sub.

Further edit: OK. So I found this letter by Rothbard. There's something to be said of this argument. However, I'm still in that moral dilemma.

Further edit part two:

There is one case, I believe, where a vote was constitutive in the United States: the vote for or against the Constitution. ... anyone voting for the Constitution participated in the criminal act of setting up, instituting, a stronger government. Those who voted against the Constitution, on the other hand, were great.

So if this is a chance to vote for the EU constitution, if I voted against it, I'd be choosing to smash the state. I believe my position may be turning.

Final edit: I'm not sure where the animus is coming from on this point of view. Abstention is not only a credible civil disobedience principle, it also has history in libertarianism. All I'm seeing from this sub is a downvote brigade and a plethora of abuse instead of principled discussion which is what I would have hoped for. In that context, I don't see how this sub is any different from say r/politics. A dissenting view point is just as welcome here as in any other part of reddit. I suppose I will look elsewhere for actual debate, and leave the chest thumping circle-jerk to reddit.

[–]nunquam_dedemusJulius Evola 16ポイント17ポイント  (29子コメント)

That doesn't make any sense. The EU governement is the force to begin with. A vote to leave is a vote to relieve yourself of that force. Those who are supportive of the EU are the ones enforcing their views onto you.

[–]aletoledojustice derives freedom 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Only people that are part of their system are allowed to vote anyway. For example, I'm not a citizen of their system, so I can't vote. Maybe I could lie and pretend I'm part of their system, but it's a safer bet to just be honest and not try to deceive people.

[–]coldmug -2ポイント-1ポイント  (27子コメント)

That is definitely valid, and I agree. But the actual act of voting is the force that I am uncomfortable with. I would be inflicting my opinion on people that may not prefer it. I have no right to do that.

[–]ancap_anarchoBeard Enthusiast 9ポイント10ポイント  (14子コメント)

Christ almighty man, stop acting so pathetic. Regardless of HOW Britain votes, you will be FORCED into compliance. There is NO alternative. Britain stays, you'll be forced to abide. Britain leaves, you'll be forced to abide. When force is assured on both sides of the equation, the dilemma is no longer a moral one, but purely consequential.

Would you rather lose a finger, or an entire hand? Would you rather that Britain get fucked or gang-banged? There is NO alternative! VOTE LEAVE!

Also, please tell me that you actually registered before the deadline

[–]coldmug 0ポイント1ポイント  (13子コメント)

Wow. I've had an amazing experience today. I was expecting at least this sub to be grounded in actual discussion and not just platitudes and down-vote brigades. Thanks for opening my eyes guys. I can see a principled position is not welcome here. I don't see what difference if any this sub brings compares to any other part of reddit.

For the record, I was already being swayed by some of the initial discussion here which was on point. Now I'm not sure anymore. Whether I vote or not, I'm off this sub. Thanks guys!

[–]PotatoBadgerBitcoin 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

I think most of us agree with your principle. I haven't given much thought to the Brexit vote yet, but it seems like the principle doesn't apply.

The principle: Voting for legislation or politicians that can enact legislation which aggresses against others is an immoral violation of the NAP.

How does that apply in this case? Again, I'm not familiar as a non-European. As far as I know, this is a vote with two options: stay (maintain current government aggressions) or leave (remove some government aggressions, without adding any others). I could understand an argument that your vote doesn't really matter or isn't worth your time, but I don't know if I buy into the idea that it's immoral. Maybe I misunderstand the options, though.

[–]coldmug 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

As far as I know, this is a vote with two options: stay or leave.

This is not under dispute. I agree that it would be better for Britain to exit. The moral dilemma comes from forcing the Brexit option on to people who may not agree with exiting. Yes, it is force to make people accept a decision they are not in favor of using the violence of the state.

In this case however, voting yes would indeed reduce the state. The question is, is this a justifiable loophole to the non-aggression principle? Rothbard seems to think so, but others don't.

[–]PotatoBadgerBitcoin 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Oh, I see your qualm. I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think it holds up.

First, participation in the EU is an aggression. Many may want this aggression, but that doesn't mean they have a right to it. Would it be aggression to stop a thief, taking away his "right to steal"? I think an exit vote correlates to a weak act of self-defense.

Second, those in favor of the EU could structure it in a voluntary, non-aggressive manner. By voting to exit, you're not preventing them from creating a voluntary opt-in organization.

[–]coldmug 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Many may want this aggression, but that doesn't mean they have a right to it.

OK, I see your point. It's actually a better argument since you're coming from a rights perspective. Since nobody has the right to aggress against anyone else, using the state to aggress is also not a right, therefore a vote to stay in the EU, which would continue EU aggression, would be wrong. On the other hand, a vote to exit the EU which would diminish EU aggression is a principally justified.

This is much better than the utilitarian argument, that voting leave would simply be better for everyone.

Edit: There would have to be certain limits on this justification though. You can't use this to justify any election... say the current US presidential election, since the outcomes depend on what the incumbent actually does while in office. I would think it applies more to elections like Brexit which have defined outcomes.

[–]PotatoBadgerBitcoin 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I see two major issues with voting in a presidential election. Like you said, one is that you're giving them illegitimate authority while they have no legal obligation to uphold campaign promises.

Another is that very, very few (if any?) of even the most libertarian candidates promise to solely reduce the aggressions of government. Even in the best cases, a libertarian candidate usually says that they'll eliminate aggressions A, B, C, D, E, and F, but they'll create aggression G. What right do you have to choose between aggressions against others? Unless you're voting exclusively to remove aggressions (as in the Brexit, if I understand it correctly), there's still a moral dilemma. Is it acceptable to ask a thief to rob Carol instead of Alice and Bob?

[–]ancap_anarchoBeard Enthusiast 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you gave a damn about principles, you wouldn't be dithering on your decision because some mean ol' Internet libertarians gave you a couple points worth of negative karma.

Here's a principle for you: Non-aggression is a standard by which I live my life. That principle goes out the window when you put a fucking gun to my head. If I can take a bullet to the leg instead, then that's a trade I'll be happy to make.

[–]ironclad_capillariesVoluntarist 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Don't run off just because maybe, like, ten people here disagree with you. There are as many perspectives as there are subscribers. But if you find another subreddit more worth your time, please tell me about it.

[–]retorikerAve, Europa, nostra vera patria! 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Quit your fucking bitching, you have shitty reasoning, just accept it.

[–]coldmug 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Great argument there. I'm sure you're proud of yourself.

[–]retorikerAve, Europa, nostra vera patria! -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

You've all ready gotten all the sufficient arguments from this thread.

[–]ProjectD13XI hate roads -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Not an argument

[–]coldmug 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Read my other comments.

[–]SpiritofJamesAnarcho-Pacifist 4ポイント5ポイント  (6子コメント)

You're not "inflicting your opinion" on others if the vote is strictly for less infliction of opinions on others.

[–]coldmug -3ポイント-2ポイント  (5子コメント)

"Less infliction" is still infliction of an opinion.

[–]SpiritofJamesAnarcho-Pacifist 6ポイント7ポイント  (4子コメント)

no

[–]coldmug 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Explain?

[–]SpiritofJamesAnarcho-Pacifist 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

Ok, let's try a thought experiment. Suppose there are four people who vote to enslave a fifth. Years later, a new election is held. Should the slave vote against being enslaved again?

[–]coldmug 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'd say that the first vote is moot, and the slave has every right to break out of his enslavement with whatever means necessary. But the distinction is not as clear here. The people who want to leave are not definitely slaves, and the people who want to stay are not definitely owners of such slaves.

[–]SpiritofJamesAnarcho-Pacifist 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'd say that the first vote is moot

What do you mean by that?

the slave has every right to break out of his enslavement with whatever means necessary.

So, including voting?

The people who want to leave are not definitely slaves

How are they not enslaved to the previous decision to join the EU?

[–]Maikowski2Right Wing Anarchist 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

is NAP just an opinion to you?

[–]coldmug 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

The NAP states that I can't aggress against other people. I'm following through with that.

[–]rightc0astGets a gold star! 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

That tosses out self-defense for pacifism. Would you also cheerfully pay whatever UK version of an easily avoidable tax, because hey ... you wouldn't want to use aggression against the people who wanted the tax?

[–]coldmug -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I would definitely not be happy with it. But how is voting the answer? How is forcing your opinion on others any better? How can I advocate a stateless society, when I'm perfectly happy using the state's monopoly on violence for my own ends?

Self defense is a different proposition. If someone aggresses against me, I have the right to defend myself. But in voting there is no clear aggressor. The person who votes is not responsible for the actions of the one he votes for. The system is the aggressor, but there is no way to prevent the system from aggressing against you, aside from destroying it.

[–]Maikowski2Right Wing Anarchist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Voting is not aggression per se though. If you vote for less aggression, or as in this case, total removal of certain kind of aggression that can not be in any way against the NAP. Even though I do not believe in voting as action and I think it is useless endeavour to do so for anything which involves more than 10 people, still though, it does not violate NAP in this particular case unless you show me how.

[–]DisappointedByPeopleAncap 9ポイント10ポイント  (6子コメント)

However, I'm still in that moral dilemma.

http://www.somersetcountygazette.co.uk/news/13844292._The_European_Union_wants_me_to_kill_my_raccoons___claims_Watchet_zoo_director/

Don't be

Time to say

Dear European Union, go fuck yourself

[–]coldmug 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

God dammit EU, I'm trying to stay principled here.

[–]DisappointedByPeopleAncap 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

as much as I hate voting and it's against my life philosophy, I would go to vote for leaving soviet union...

...er... I mean European Union

[–]coldmug 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

Lol. Except that the UK can be pretty Soviet at times.

[–]DisappointedByPeopleAncap 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

I am from Czech Republic and it's so soviet-like sometimes that I don't even...

It's better to have less socialism than moar tho

Let me explain it:

Socialism = bad

Less socialism = better

Even less socialism = even more better

Minarchy = good

Anarcho-capitalism = BEST!

[–]fenbekusGib Panarchism pls 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

AnarOcho-capitalism FTW

In all seriousness, please leave, this is a great opportunity we here in Poland will probably not encounter for a long time or ever

[–]DisappointedByPeopleAncap 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

oops

fixed

If UK leaves, then others will follow (maybe)

[–]Ciderglove 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

A pathetic line of argument. Those voting to remain are purposefully inflicting more, strangulating government control on you.

[–]coldmug 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Except that I'm refraining from being part of that system

[–]ZuimeiThey Don't Think It Be Like It Is. But It Do. 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

Think of it as self-defense. I deplore the use of violence, especially killing, but I will kill to defend myself and my loved ones. This is no different; you've taken the gun (government) from your attackers (pro-EU people) and you need to use it now, because this may be the only opportunity you ever have to use it and be even a little justified. But I totally understand your dilemma, I find the idea of voting physically repulsive just like the idea of having to kill.

[–]coldmug 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree with you entirely. Ideally, there would be a way to break off the part of Britain that wants to stay with the EU and another part that wants out.

[–]shane0mackWell-Dressed An-Cap 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

What about the people who were forced into the EU to begin with? They were aggressed against from the start.

[–]DisappointedByPeopleAncap 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

please, go voting

raccoons need you

[–]terminus468Anarcho-Fabulous 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

Using the roads is more statist than voting.

Do you not do that? You do? Well then you can fucking vote. Jesus.

[–]coldmug 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Seriously? Your argument is literally "roads"?

[–]terminus468Anarcho-Fabulous 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's the argument against ancaps who don't vote because that's endorsing the state.

Prisoners who eat the prison food aren't endorsing this system. It isn't endorsing the system if you operate in it because you're FORCED to is what I'm saying.

You use the services that YOU PAY for because you have to in order to survive! Voting is similarly legitimate for an anarchist. And as for forcing people to your will, that is backwards. It is force to make people identify as part of a collective that they do not wish to be a part of! THAT is force! The EU is immoral for states in the same way that states are immoral for citizens!

What you are saying would be the direct equivalent of an anarcho capitalist saying "I won't dissolve the state because that would be forcing people to go without a state"!

It is absurd. The EU is literally a meta-state and the Brexit is a vote on rejecting the meta-state in favor of meta-anarchy. My question is how you can possibly, POSSIBLY claim to be an anarchist and not be in favor of Brexit?

To me it seems completely incompatible and if I were you I would seriously question whether or not you are here for the edginess factor.

TL;DR Abstention is stupid.

[–]coldmug 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

"I won't dissolve the state because that would be forcing people to go without a state"!

Except that in this instance you're not dissolving a state, you're replacing it with a different state. Also, you're using the allowed force of the state tot do so. How is that anarchist?

My question is how you can possibly, POSSIBLY claim to be an anarchist and not be in favor of Brexit?

That is absolutely NOT what I"m saying. I've said from the start I'm for the Brexit. You're misrepresenting my position.

All the arguments you make have been made before. And all the arguments I've made have been made before. Yet both opinions hold sway within the Libertarian/Anarchist philosophy. There's nothing new in this discussion to dissuade either party.

[–]ZombieAlpacaLips 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

you're replacing it with a different state

A more local state with a smaller territory is definitely preferable to a distant large state.

[–]RenegadeMindsVoluntarist 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Voting to leave is voting for less government and more freedom. This is a no brainer. You've got yourself all tied up in knots for nothing.

[–]rammingparu2 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

So far, this is the most retarded thing I have read today. Do not worry though, as the day is still young and there are many more opportunities for me to have the displeasure of running my eyes over more stupidity.

[–]ironclad_capillariesVoluntarist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

So are you worried about keeping others from having the master they wish to have? What about voting for Brexit would keep your neighbors from still observing the laws or whatever that the EU puts in place? Because there's certainly no moral quandary surrounding your "opinion" that they shouldn't force you to comply. And let's be honest. Everyone voting "stay" is doing it to aggress upon others.

So if Brexit doesn't keep anyone from complying to extra laws if they want, what's the problem in voting leave?

[–]True_KapernicusVoluntaryist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is not an election, it is a poll. Expressing your desire to leave the EU is not 'forcing your view' to leave on the Europhiles, who you can be sure will be enthusiastically voting for more government to oppress you.

[–]maszynaI'm a snake ... sssss -1ポイント0ポイント  (12子コメント)

Oh, nice. Statist propaganda in a sticky. Now I've seen it all.

Do not fucking vote as voting is immoral and you legitimise those fuckers by taking part in their shitty games.

[–]ILiekTofuVoluntaryist[S] 5ポイント6ポイント  (9子コメント)

A violent revolution would be the worst way to transition into an AnCap society. If there is an option to do it politically, you must take it.

[–]Anarchy321Anarcho-Capitalist -2ポイント-1ポイント  (8子コメント)

Political action would be the worst way to transition to an Ancap society. If there is an option to do it violently, you must take it. /s

Seriously, you have nothing to support that bullshit claim. Political action will fail and lead to continued suffering. Ancaps are repeating the same mistakes that they have made since the 70s.

This is the definition of insanity.

Ancaps who believe that they will vote away the state are insane.

[–]ILiekTofuVoluntaryist[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

My claim is supported by the NAP, you must try a peaceful transition above all else.

[–]True_KapernicusVoluntaryist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

A peaceful transition is not necessarily political - for now, I think we have to advocate for non-participation. If the belief in liberty spreads to election influencing level but more people turn away from the state rather than vote and lose, it will shrivel. Then maybe one day it will be time to finally institute the government that will do what is necessary to remove the shell that remains.

[–]Anarchy321Anarcho-Capitalist -1ポイント0ポイント  (5子コメント)

You do not have any obligation to respond to aggression with non-violence. Rothbard himself supported the morality of violence against the state.

The NAP does not require anyone to pursue a "peaceful transition above all else".

That is attempted revisionism on your part.

[–]ILiekTofuVoluntaryist[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

Do you deny that if a peaceful option gives you the same results, you're saying you shouldn't take it, instead opting for some system of Vengeance?

*Edited, "You're saying"

[–]Anarchy321Anarcho-Capitalist 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

if a peaceful option gives you the same results

It doesn't.

you should take it

When the peaceful options take decades while the violent option takes a few years at most, then no, I wouldnt take the peaceful option.

some system of Vengeance

You can attempt to reduce it to "Vengeance" if you want; I'm talking about the use of force to accomplish strategic objectives.

When you offer revisions for the NAP and capitalize words like vengeance, it really looks like you're trying to manipulate people.

[–]ILiekTofuVoluntaryist[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm genuinely not.

You presuppose that taking a peaceful option wouldn't result in a lack of a state in the long run, like encouraging policies like the devolution of power to a smaller and smaller level, and supporting movements that seek grant independence to regions. Both of which move towards the end goal. You may counter that I'm presupposing that this will work, but I'm not. I see value in those policies, and see that they both move towards granting individual governance. I don't know that they work, but I am highly optimistic about them.

Secondly, a peaceful and gradual transition over 40-50 years is preferable to one which takes the lives of up to a billion people. And after that, what image does the Voluntaryist society have? One that promotes morality above all else? I think not. I argue that without the general masses wanting to accept ideals of the NAP, society will inevitably move back towards a State. You can't change people's Ideology through war.

Thirdly, what makes you think that a violent methods will ensure the change of the society any more than peaceful methods? What if the Great War is lost? Doesn't that just ensure that a voluntary society will never come? People will no longer want to fight, as they have been shown to have lost, and I see a new time of McCarthyism, stopping the peaceful process more than ever before.

Finally. I guess I must misunderstand the NAP. I understood it as the initiation of force against peaceful people was inherently immoral. Wouldn't a violent situation cause Peaceful people to be drafted to fight? Wouldn't an attack on the state cause Peaceful people to die?

[–]Anarchy321Anarcho-Capitalist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

you presuppose that taking a peaceful option wouldn't result in a lack of a state in the long run

Political activism and voting demonstrably failed to promote anarchism of any form in the government of any nation throughout the entire 20th century.

like encouraging policies like the devolution of power to a smaller and smaller level

supporting movements that seek to grant independence to regions

How will you promote individual sovereignty when your political actions promote popular sovereignty? Where is the line where people will cease believing in the latter?

I don't know that they will work, but I am highly optimistic about them.

Let me try to explain this:

If you create any law that dramatically affects taxation, pensions, social security, welfare, etc, there will be mass riots. Violence is inevitable.

There is an entire parasitic class of people, both in America and Europe, who will declare you to be an advocate of "Austerity" and "Unfettered Capitalism".

You may be successful in promoting liberalization, you mean even be successful in promoting separatism.

But individual sovereignty, the major reductions in taxation, destatisation of the military, abolishing national parks; these are all things that people don't understand and they will react violently to it.

What protects you from a military coup?

Do you understand how likely it is that the mere election of an ancap would trigger an anti-capitalist revolution?

Secondly, a peaceful and gradual transition over 40-50 years is preferable to one which takes the lives of up to a billion people.

A billion people? I would agree if this were plausible. I highly doubt that we would wipe out 1/7th of the global population with Molotov cocktails and 3d printed guns.

And after that, what image does the Voluntaryist society have? One that promotes morality above all else?

Yes, because there's no reason to believe that we will kill a billion people. And there is no need to do such a thing.

I argue that without the general masses wanting to accept ideals of the NAP, society will inevitably move back towards a State.

We have heard this argument before. It is common.

Finally. I guess I must misunderstand the NAP. I understood it as the initiation of force against peaceful people was inherently immoral

This is correct.

Wouldn't a violent situation cause Peaceful people to be drafted to fight

Possibly. And yes, conscription is a NAP violation, hence we would resist it.

Nations can be prevented from implementing the draft. Manpower acquired from the draft can easily be insufficient to restore order (in large countries like USA and Russia).

And it is needless to say that most people (in America, at least) are violently opposed to the draft.

Wouldn't an attack on the state cause peaceful people to die.

We would not initiate force against anyone. If peaceful people died, it would be due to their reliance on the state, or the actions of the state.

You are forgetting the part where peaceful people are already dying and suffering throughout America, Europe, and all of the world.

So while a good person might die as a consequence of our actions, we will not be the ones initiating force, and other good people will be saved in the process.

[–]Anarchy321Anarcho-Capitalist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I argue that without the general masses wanting to accept ideals of the NAP, society will inevitably move back towards a State. You can't change people's Ideology through war.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/comments/4i47g6/comedian_ari_shaffir_saying_anarchism_is_the_only/d2vrbvo?context=3

https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/comments/4n6don/how_would_anarchocapitalists_overthrow_government/d42t9ls

[–]True_KapernicusVoluntaryist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You legitimise them when you vote for them - a referendum is a simple poll.

[–]Verinio 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

you speak like a troll, you slimy sneaky snek

[–]FacehAnti-Federalist - /r/Rational_Liberty 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

The question is how likely is any of your votes to to affect the outcome, and how much you value the time that would otherwise be spent voting.

For instance, if you had a 1% chance of being the 'deciding' vote on the issue, you might value that chance at, say, $10,000 (which is low, in my opinion, but lets roll with it). If it takes you 1 hour of time you could spend on something else, and you usually value your time at about $100/hour, this is an obvious bargain.

But if you have a (more likely) .0001% chance at being the deciding vote, and we discount your valuation at the same rate, then you value it at only $1. Then you're looking at making only $1/hr for your time. Obviously not a good use of your time.

This is definitely all muddied by the coordination problem of figuring out who supports which position and how many of them are actually getting out to vote, but end of the day your decision is for you, and if you think your time is best spent voting, nobody should really judge you on THIS particular occasion.

[–]aletoledojustice derives freedom 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Even if i was the deciding vote, I would still wonder what the catch is. Did they suddenly grow a conscious and decide that thousands of years of authoritarian rule was enough. If you don't know who the sucker is on any deal, then you're it.

[–]E7ernalDecline to State 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

This doesn't apply to standard elections because you elect a person who may or may not (okay, almost certainly will not) enact the policies they campaigned on.

In a referendum it does apply, and the odds are almost always worth it.

[–]coldmug -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

All right, all douchebaggery aside, there has been some fruitful debate from this discussion.

First off, from the start, no one is debating whether the Brexit should happen. That's a no-brainer. Small government equals less aggression.

This was my original comment presenting the moral dilemma under debate here. Voting inherently invokes the state's monopoly on violence, whereby whatever decision is taken by the act of voting is enforced on all of society. The people who voted against the majority opinion are forced to accept it. They have no choice, because of the existence of the state. Thus, this is an act of aggresion. The idea of voting should be abhorrent to anarchist/libertarians, at least to those of principle.

Thus the moral dilemma. On the one hand, the Brexit would mean less aggression against all people, on the other, the decision would be implemented by the state on all people, including those that didn't vote for it.

Most commenters here have either ignored this dilemma entirely (which I don't see how a self-prolaimed anarchist can do), or have forwarded utilitarian arguments. "The Brexit would be good for everyone, therefore it should be implemented". Even at the expense of the state? If you agree with this argument, then you must also be for drug and alcohol prohibition. After all, not doing heroin is definitely good for people.

/u/PotatoBadger forwarded a better argument.

participation in the EU is an aggression. Many may want this aggression, but that doesn't mean they have a right to it. Would it be aggression to stop a thief, taking away his "right to steal"? I think an exit vote correlates to a weak act of self-defense.

This argument is coming from a rights framework. No one has the right to aggress against anyone else. No one has the right to empower the EU to aggress against anyone. Anyone who votes for the EU, or votes against exiting from the EU, is empowering aggression, and thus an aggressor themself. Therefore voting against the EU is voting against aggression.

Looked at from another angle, the NAP allows defending aggression against one's rights. Since voting for EU would aggress against my rights, voting against it becomes an act of self-defence, justified by the NAP.

To note, this does not justify voting for a person to take office. The only justification made is for a referendum style vote which directly influences the size of the state.

This is a much more solid argument and one that I would consider keeping in the tradition of libertarianism. It is what swayed me. Not the random dick-spit peddled here.

TL;DR Your utilitarian arguments suck. Rights argument wins. I vote Brexit next Thursday.

[–]Pinochet-Heli-ToursDefend people and property. Evict leftists. -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

This time were being given the unique opportunity to vote for less Government. Vote for less regulation of industry.

This is the same reason why American libertarians should vote Trump. We absolutely can't risk Hillary winning, she is the worst outcome possible for our freedoms.

Gary Johnson has about 0.001% chance of winning people! Wake up!

[–]True_KapernicusVoluntaryist 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Voting in an election is approving of the state in a way that referendums do not as referendums are not part of democracy. An election is about begging for a ruler, a referendum is a simple pol. To vote in an election is to participate and you know how much they care about turn out - if fewer come out to vote, they lose legitimacy. Look at how franticly they try and accuse those who do not vote of 'apathy'.

[–]Pinochet-Heli-ToursDefend people and property. Evict leftists. 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

And who enforces the rule of the referendum? Both use the state. There's no major difference.