10
11

Wushu Watch: A Concession to the Men In Black Pajamas | FIGHTLAND (fightland.vice.com)

chicagojoewalcottSanda, MMA, Boxing が 投稿

並べ替え:
ベスト
トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A
あなたは単独のコメントのスレッドを見ています。

残りのコメントをみる →

[–]TheSolarian -4ポイント-3ポイント  (15子コメント)

Eh, Jack Slack isn't usually wrong, but he's really fucked up on a whole lot of levels here.

As I mentioned a while ago, pressures points most definitely work....but not on everyone. On some people, they'll jump up and done like they've been zapped with electricity, others will say "Eh."

I demonstrated this on a friend of mine, who is as they say, a tough dude. Former cop, commando, teacher, has been doing Jiu-Jitsu, boxing, as well as various other more military and LEO related things for a long time and many of the pressure point techniques, just don't work on him.

So, do they work?

Definitely.

On some people.

There are points that usually work, and yes, they can be exploited. The key difference being, that rather than being as some seem to think the key point to winning a fight, it's more of having something else extra up your sleeve if you get the chance.

Understanding these anatomical aspects, isn't exactly totally trivial, and Jack Slack always gets a bit weird when he discusses the Bubishi, in that he forgets that the people that compiled it view the various aspects of Chi, pressure points, and yes, the 'Dim Mak' as the most advanced work in the entire manual.

However, he assumes due to some of the bullshit floating around, that there was never anything to it.

As a general rule, if people are doing something that directly relates to life and death, and they keep doing it for hundreds if not thousands of years, and continually expand and expound on the concept...there's usually a very good reason for it.

[–]Trogdor_T_Burninator 4ポイント5ポイント  (6子コメント)

How do you explain the complete lack of pressure point efficacy in full-contact fighting? If it works, where are the pressure point fighters? If it works, why haven't the best MMA gyms incorporated it into their training? Jon Jones eyepokes, which is quite effective and illegal, but where are the legal pressure point attacks? Why are there no professional MMA fighters explaining their wins in terms of pressure points?

Anecdote about it working on a tough friend of yours is not a realistic situation.

[–]TheSolarian -4ポイント-3ポイント  (5子コメント)

Tell you what.

Go read what I wrote again.

This time, actually read it.

[–]Trogdor_T_Burninator 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

Are you so closed-minded that you cannot fathom the possibility that I actually read, understood, and reject the ideas in your post?

I notice you didnt answer my questions, either.

So, here is what I propose:

Either we both discuss the issue like respectful adults or we fully dive into immature insults while ignoring the other person.

[–]TheSolarian -2ポイント-1ポイント  (3子コメント)

You proved, quite clearly, that you didn't read what I wrote by getting it completely wrong.

Then, I gave you a very clear option to read what I wrote again, which if you did read it, would result in you slapping yourself on the forehead and going "Oh!"

So, do whatever you like, you've already rejected my proposal.

[–]chicagojoewalcottSanda, MMA, Boxing[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Have you ever considered the possibility that people actually comprehend what you've wrote to the best degree they're able, but your statements are just rhetorically unsound and thus unconvincing?

Maybe we truly don't understand. If dozens of people get the same, "wrong," idea then the salient variable is the person communicating (you in this instance).

However, I don't think that you're entirely bereft of communicative skill though, you may be very smart, but you're betrayed by the persistent endorsement of concepts of which communication is impossible, as they lack innate logos. This is not helped by the consistent presence of an opposing pathos in your own writings that incites exasperation or offense in the reader.

[–]TheSolarian -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

If that ever turns out to be true, I might actually consider it.

In this case, I used an example of pressure points not working when someone was just too tough for it, then Mister "What the fuck is reading comprehension?" came in, derped fairly hard, then when I pointed out he should read it again, still fucked up.

Maybe we truly don't understand. If dozens of people get the same, "wrong," idea then the salient variable is the person communicating (you in this instance).

A lot of you truly don't, which is very fucking weird from my perspective, and I can see why the various people that do stop posting on here as they basically throw their hands up in the air and say "Fuck this bullshit!"

Or, the salient variable is the audience. The only people who react like this in real life, are the 100% bonafide can't fights. In real life, there is tone, intonation, and obviously, physical presence, demonstration, and depending on the person, reputation.

This is not helped by the consistent presence of an opposing pathos in your own writings that incites exasperation or offense in the reader.

You're making a mistake here in assuming that I should care. If people can't pick it up, that's on them. I have very clear communication with some people on here, because they get it, have the right attitude, and display understanding.

To people that don't, well, the expectation that I should pat them on the head is probably far more insulting to me than it is to them.

[–]chicagojoewalcottSanda, MMA, Boxing[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

As a general rule, if people are doing something that directly relates to life and death, and they keep doing it for hundreds if not thousands of years, and continually expand and expound on the concept...there's usually a very good reason for it.

I don't think that this is the case.

Consider medicine. For thousands of years of human history, most everyone had a vastly flawed understanding of the human body. Medicine is of course a matter of life and death, but the medical theory of classical Greece persisted well through the Renaissance in Europe, some aspects lasting well into the Victorian era. With people like Cornelius Agrippa, for example, compounding it with more occultism and magic.

Indeed those bunk elements of the Bubishi are largely based off of those very same, erroneous, conceptions of the natural sciences.

I honestly think that it's impressive that the rest of the bubishi is so functional, but that's the beauty of martial arts, the functional themes occur organically in live fighting across history and geography.

Of course, ignorance is a reason for many things, if not a good one, speaking from an optimistically humanist perspective.

[–]TheSolarian -3ポイント-2ポイント  (3子コメント)

I don't think that this is the case.

You may well not, but plenty of people are wrong with the best of intentions.

Consider medicine. For thousands of years of human history, most everyone had a vastly flawed understanding of the human body.

Yes. Consider medicine. Consider how things that had worked for thousands of years were thrown out due to 'science' and how far medicine went down, backwards, and wrong, for literally hundreds of years, and that it took more or less six hundred years plus, to reach the level of medical knowledge that the Romans had in the BC era.

Indeed those bunk elements of the Bubishi are largely based off of those very same, erroneous, conceptions of the natural sciences.

Nope.

Of course, ignorance is a reason for many things, if not a good one, speaking from an optimistically humanist perspective.

Quite correct. So you're ignorant, in the literal sense of not knowing, and you've supported that ignorance with proof of more ignorance, yet, you believe it isn't.

What then, am I supposed to do with people like you?

I can point out that you're wrong, tell you that you're wrong, give you enough clues to look up for yourself, but as you have a very wrong idea that you're right, and then prove that to me further, well...what can be done?

[–]chicagojoewalcottSanda, MMA, Boxing[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yes. Consider medicine. Consider how things that had worked for thousands of years were thrown out due to 'science' and how far medicine went down, backwards, and wrong, for literally hundreds of years, and that it took more or less six hundred years plus, to reach the level of medical knowledge that the Romans had in the BC era.

What are you talking about? The classical Romans used Hippocratic Humorism (at best) just like all of Europe for thousands of years afterwards, and shared the Greek distaste for dissection and internal research. The best contributions of the classical world to medicine were the foundations of scientific medicine itself, though they would see little effective application in those societies.

Considering "Scientific Medicine" to have developed largely in the mid 1800s (one could argue the mid 1700s, due to the influence of Boerhaave), the quality of care skyrocketed relative to what is was even a few decades prior. Within decades greater leaps were made than in centuries. Asceptic protocol and anti-sceptic substances, refined analgesics, the birth of psychiatry, the transition between phrenology and neurology, the development of vaccine theory which itself has saved hundreds of millions of lives if not more.

The people who developed the bases of scientific method during the 1500s did so by breaking the conventions of Galen and Hippocrates. Specifically Veslaius, who pointed out flaws in Galenic medicine that had been unnoticed for thousands of years, while also challenging the role of astrology in medicine that was the convention of that period.

There was a degree of hygiene in the classical cultures that was not found again until the Renaissance, but these were lost due to superstition and scarcity, not any application of scientific method.

Ask any doctor or historian what effect the scientific revolutions had on the quality of care. Would they be ignorant as well?

[–]TheSolarian -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Literally nothing you are saying here is even vaguely accurate.

Asceptic protcol and anti-sepsis treatment in particular, went backwards for hundreds of years due to everything that you're praising.

'Psychiatry' as in the treatment of mental illness is amazingly backwards even now to what it once used to be, and up until to the advents and attempted reforms of R.D. Laing, it was beyond pseudo-science.

No, these ideas of hygiene and anti-sepsis, and everything else, were lost due to what you call the scientific method. Because people formulated anti-sepsis treatment in terms of 'cleansing evil spirits' it was dismissed as superstition, which completely retarded medicine, again, for hundreds of years.

Hence the quite famous case Ignaz Semmelweis, who when he proposed that doctors wash their hands after dealing with corpses before dealing with babies, was dismissed as 'superstition' and insulting.

Literally everything you think about this issue is completely and utterly wrong.

Ask any doctor or historian what effect the scientific revolutions had on the quality of care. Would they be ignorant as well?

I can't speak for all of them, but the general run of them most definitely are, as they are generally speaking, mentally weak, easily convinced, closed minded and their critical faculties tend to be mediocre at best.

Far too many dismiss Chinese medicine, and thus forget that it was the Chinese doctors that had to remind the European ones that there was a connection between feces and disease, and water quality and stomach ailments, and that list is very long.

In the American context, doctors kill about 200,000 people per year due to fucking up, and the constant news is always "Doctors fucked up. Lots of people died." and that literally never ceases, because the dominant paraidigm is a complete misunderstanding.

Oddly, the greatest users of 'alternative therapies' in the American context are medical professionals, because they're fully aware of how completely fucked and hideous the modern western medical system truly is.

[–]chicagojoewalcottSanda, MMA, Boxing[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The theory of diseases was highly influenced by ideas of an imbalance of the basic "four humours" in the body, a theory known as dyscrasia, for which the main treatment was bloodlettings.

This is what Semmelweis came into conflict with. Humorism. Which is what I was talking about. His conflict was not with progressive scientists, but with the old guard that hung onto the old concepts. Specifically those classical ideas.

To your point about doctors, how many people do you think die from preventable diseases around the world due to a lack of access to modern medicine? They don't get talked about as much, you're right, but think of that number.

[–]M3atboy 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

The problem is if something just flat out doesn't work, even if you do it 100 % correctly, it's not something that people should spend time studying. The ROI just isn't there.

Compare this to chokes. If you perform a choke in a technically perfect manner it will work on everyone, all the time. That's just a function of biology. As an added bonus they even work when you get 'close enough'.

[–]TheSolarian -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't agree. There's a lot of things that I'd say are worth learning, for various reasons, that may not work even if you do it 100% correctly, and I'll give you one easy example.

A punch to the stomach area. Some people, are just too fucking tough, and the same thing can apply to pressure points.

When I was doing hard sparring of various sorts, I spent a lot of time on core strength and conditioning. Three hundred situps, every day, at a bare minimum and a lot of time smashing myself with a medicine ball, and lots more of things like that, the net result was, I used that training to sucker people into 'body' shots that I barely felt so I could take their fucking head off.

Now, are punchs to the body an 'ineffective technique'? No, not at all. Some people just have superior conditioning, and a lot of the pressure point stuff is similar.

The ROI is there, if you ever use it and it works. I've done plenty of things that you may well say were 'useless' and I might have agreed...until I needed to use them in real life, then I was very glad that I'd spent all of that time training in things that I thought were interesting, but I'd never need to use in real life.

Compare this to chokes. If you perform a choke in a technically perfect manner it will work on everyone, all the time. That's just a function of biology. As an added bonus they even work when you get 'close enough'.

Yeah, I used to think that. Then I had one guy get out of my rear naked choke, which admittedly, has only happened once in real life, and yes it's true that I didn't actually get to sink it in properly, but it still didn't work.

[–]CynicalCanine0 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I demonstrated this on a friend of mine, who is as they say, a tough dude. Former cop, commando, teacher, has been doing Jiu-Jitsu, boxing, as well as various other more military and LEO related things for a long time and many of the pressure point techniques, just don't work on him.

How long was your friend a commando for?