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Waitress 'attacked by Muslim men for serving alcohol during Ramadan' (standard.co.uk)
syuk が 5時間前 投稿
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[–]antikama 63ポイント64ポイント65ポイント 3時間前 (38子コメント)
Agree, I'm pretty liberal and its annoying when people, especially other liberals call you a bigot for criticising islam.
[–]Ren3gade10 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 2時間前 (5子コメント)
Try being a conservative and criticizing Islam. I nearly get hung in the streets just for opening my mouth as a conservative in the USA.
[+]drunksquirrel スコアが基準値未満のコメント-7ポイント-6ポイント-5ポイント 1時間前 (4子コメント)
I dream of a day when I can criticize any skin color without fear of being called a racist and a bigot.
[–]AsaBringman 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 1時間前 (3子コメント)
Islam is not a skin color.
[+]drunksquirrel スコアが基準値未満のコメント-7ポイント-6ポイント-5ポイント 1時間前 (2子コメント)
But wouldn't it be easier if it were?
[–]Facebook4Ever 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 1時間前 (1子コメント)
It would be for you, because you're the one that obviously separates people by color.
[–]iChooseDoubleYou 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 2時間前 (2子コメント)
It's the Regressive Left.
"Liberalism" is taking a HARD turn towards the left. Kinda like the tea party movement took a HARD right a few years ago.
What's wrong with being moderate?!?!
[–]drunksquirrel 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory
[–]Gringo_Please [スコア非表示] 44分前 (0子コメント)
Inconsistent worldview?
NotThatThereIsAnythingWrongWithThat.Seinfeld.gif
[–]Dicethrower -5ポイント-4ポイント-3ポイント 2時間前* (8子コメント)
What?!
The only bigotry about this is that you think these 2 men somehow represent Islam when they hit a woman for serving drinks and that they're perfectly in their right according to Islam for doing so.
There's nothing wrong with criticizing Islam, I do it all the time, but this has nothing to do with Islam. If a french kid hits a girl tomorrow, while calling her a slut (for whatever reason), you wouldn't criticize the French culture either for considering girls sluts and that within that cultural framework the kid was somehow justified in doing that, instead of just considering the kid to be an asshole. There's no culture/group/religions that justifies this, only the small made up ones when it fits them and none of which are active or welcomed by anyone in developed countries.
edit: Shit, forgot this was a default sub. It's like Oprah came in here and gave everyone a dose of simple-minded 'convenient to project my bias' ignorance.
[–]drunksquirrel 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 1時間前 (7子コメント)
It's OK to criticize Islam when they're doing stupid shit like this, just like it's OK to criticize any other religion when they do their stupid shit in the name of god(s).
Religious radicalization is encouraged (not overtly for the most part) by the mere existence of religious moderates who give them a basis for doing their crazy shit.
[–]Dicethrower -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 1時間前* (6子コメント)
Still not getting the point. Let's try it this way.
It's OK to criticize Black people when they're doing stupid shit like this, just like it's OK to criticize any other race when they do their stupid shit.
Somehow in your mind these are not the same.
Religious radicalization is encouraged by the mere existence of religious moderates who give them a basis for doing their crazy shit.
Slippery slope when it suits you, got it.
War crimes are encouraged by the mere existence of an army, who give them a basis for doing their crazy shit.
[–]dylulu 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 1時間前 (1子コメント)
Race does not dictate behavior the way a belief system does. Unless you are a racist who believes that race dictates behavior.
[–]pickelsurprise -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
Ahem, I believe the term is "race realist," sir.
[–]drunksquirrel 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 1時間前 (3子コメント)
You're right, religion does encourage the same atrocities that an army commits. These guys used religion as their basis for assaulting that woman, they didn't use their skin color as an excuse.
[–]Dicethrower -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 1時間前* (2子コメント)
This is just disturbing how badly you want to pin this on the entire religion. You're disgusting really. Just come out and say you hate Islam and use everything you can to get rid of it.
These guys used religion as their basis for assaulting that woman, they didn't use their skin color as an excuse.
SO THE FUCK WHAT?! When a white supremacist kills a black person, that supremacist is using his or their skin color as an excuse to perform a vicious act. Do we blame the fact that people have a skin color and he was right in his mind to do it or do we blame that individual on his individual act? What's not to get?! It's easier to debate creationists on their stupidity than you people on this. It's like you're determined to be anti-PC because that's somehow the new way to be 'the outside group'.
You're basically saying, because Ramadan says you can't drink or eat during the day, people can interpret that as that they're allowed to be violent against anyone who aids others who're not participating in that culture. Yes, that's completely the fault of Ramadan (/s), not the fact that those people are just violent with 0 justification.
Don't bother to reply, you're a discriminator or a downright idiot.
[–]drunksquirrel 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
I don't hate Islam exclusively, I hate religion in its entirety. So, sorry for not fulfilling your disgusting bigot fantasy.
Funny, though, that in your hate crime example you totally blew past my point. Those people are using a prejudice to justify their violence whereas the men in question in this article are using their religious moral high-ground to justify theirs.
Yes, people do shitty things whether they are religious or not, but for some reason when religion is involved, punitive, secular repercussions are diminished.
[–]Facebook4Ever -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
Goddamn, this is rich. You lack self awareness.
[–]ijijijijijijijijhhhh -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
Shut up you bigot.
[+]hclinton4prez スコアが基準値未満のコメント-16ポイント-15ポイント-14ポイント 3時間前 (17子コメント)
If you critizie an entire religion based on the actions of a few, then yes, that makes you a bigot. I will give you that religion is inherently dumb, but that doesn't mean the people who worship whatever they want to worship are all terrible people. The more we welcome Islam and other religions in this country, the more we defeat the "us vs them" narrative that the assholes (you know, like the terrorists) want us to believe.
[–]NegativeClaim 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 2時間前 (1子コメント)
Religions are ideologies, so I judge them on the ideas of their adherents. Unfortunately, a staggering number believe fundamentally terrible things.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/articles/opinion-polls.aspx
[–]hclinton4prez -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 2時間前* (0子コメント)
People are dicks. I believe religion is a symptom of a lack of education and open thought, and that, 1000 years from now, we might not have religion, but there will still be dicks.
[–]a_spicy_memeball 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 1時間前 (1子コメント)
It's perfectly ok to say that some religions are worse than others.
[–]hclinton4prez -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
You can try and say that, but if this was a problem with a specific religion, educated well-off Muslims in this country would be doing all the terrible things that happen on the other side of the globe. But that's not happening is it? They are doing just fine as upstanding members of society, so it's not the religion. A lack of education in what amounts to the third world? Now that could be an argument.
[–]Benmjt 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 2時間前 (11子コメント)
You're overreaching a little here. He doesn't say anything about 'criticism based on a few' etc. The fact is you are not a bigot if you criticise a religion.
[–]hclinton4prez -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 2時間前 (3子コメント)
I wasn't clear. I mean that, in the examples I have seen, us liberals call people bigots for criticizing all of Islam or Muslims (or even the majority). You are not a bigot for criticizing religion, but you are a bigot for assigning the behaviors of the people in this article to all (or most) Muslim men.
[–]ElevatedEgo 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 2時間前 (2子コメント)
you are a bigot for assigning the behaviors of the people in this article to all (or most) Muslim men.
No-one is doing that. What they are doing is explaining these people's actions as the result of their outdated ideology. The fact that there exist people who can believe a watered-down version of the same doctrine and live a relatively peaceful life is irrelevant to the fact that these particular people only felt justified in attacking this woman because they believed her to have broken the tenets of their faith.
us liberals call people bigot
You do not represent all of liberalism. You, ironically, represent its least liberal offshoot.
[–]hclinton4prez 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1時間前 (1子コメント)
I wasn't accusing the comment of doing that, I was saying that's why liberals throw around terms like bigot, which is what some people do when these sorts of news stories come out (like elsewhere in this thread).
And yeah, people blame Islam for Muslim stupidity all the time. I'm saying, uneducated assholes will always find a justification for being uneducated assholes, like these guys did. If wasn't their religion they'd be dickmonkeys about something else, but because their dumb (perhaps ignorant, due to their upbringing), not because they're Muslim.
[–]ElevatedEgo [スコア非表示] 31分前 (0子コメント)
Your comment suggests that some people are just inherently bad, and that their learned ideologies, no matter how many vile beliefs contained therein, are simply benign additions to an already dangerous mindset. But the idea that one's beliefs cannot inform one's actions is simply untrue. What we are indoctrinated into valuing cannot be separated from what we choose to do, just as what we are taught to revile cannot be separated from what we choose to do.
These men were taught, from a very young age, to revile those who drank or served alcohol during their "holy" month. To any secular person, this is a nonsensical and arbitrary rule, and so seeing a person breaking it could not possibly inspire any ill will. However, to these men, who had been taught that following the Islamic doctrine was more important than following any secular law, seeing this rule defied inspired understandable rage.
It was this rational outrage, based on this irrational teaching, that led to the assault. Asserting bigotry when this is pointed out does nothing to further the conversation, nor address the root issue: That if someone is taught that the tenets of his/her ideology is "divinely inspired", then it must always supersede any secular value, and take precedence over following any secular law.
[–]Dicethrower -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 2時間前 (6子コメント)
But the point is that this has nothing to do with the religion. There's not a rule or even a vague interpretation that says men can just hit women when they're serving drinks during ramadan. If there was, you'd have actual grounds to criticize the religion, but there isn't any. So making the leap that this is somehow the religion's fault, is ignorant and if you then continue the conversation to "these people are like that and it's getting worse", like /u/gnrl2 suggests, then that's bigotry and discrimination. If you'd take action against this to a violent place, you've just argued yourself into a genocide.
[–]ElevatedEgo 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 2時間前 (5子コメント)
This has everything to do with the religion. These people felt that this woman had broken a tenet of their faith and should be punished. They felt as though they could strike her with impunity because their religion teaches that women are second-class citizens.
The fact that there are Muslims who do not act this way does not remove the fact that the actions of these individuals were intrinsically linked to their outdated belief system.
[+]Dicethrower スコアが基準値未満のコメント-6ポイント-5ポイント-4ポイント 1時間前 (4子コメント)
These people felt that this woman had broken a tenet of their faith and should be punished.
Exactly, these 2 people felt that way, nobody else does.
No it doesn't, because even in their outdated believe system there's nothing justifying this.
What's next, let's criticize soccer because there are some hooligan fans?
[–]ElevatedEgo 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 1時間前 (3子コメント)
even in their outdated believe system there's nothing justifying this.
They literally stated that the reason for their attack was her serving alcohol during their holy month. They said it. They said 'You should be ashamed of yourself for serving alcohol during Ramadan; if I was God I would hang you'.
Had they not believed these things, they would not have attacked her. Their belief system directly resulted in their violent behaviour. A person raised on purely secular values would see no problem in serving alcohol during a certain month, because it requires an irrational dogmatic belief to interpret that innocuous act as even slightly problematic.
[–]Dicethrower -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 1時間前 (2子コメント)
They literally stated that the reason for their attack was her serving alcohol during their holy month. They said it.
Well if I misinterpret a law that says I can't drive through red as a law that allows me to drive through red, I'm still getting a ticket. It's not the law's fault for my misinterpretation.
All I'm hearing so far is people performing mind gymnastics to somehow pin this on the entirety of the religion, instead of judging these people on their individual actions, like you'd if it was anything else.
[–]Facebook4Ever 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
Only mental gymnastics I see between the two of you, is coming on your part. That or you're just really daft.
[–]ElevatedEgo [スコア非表示] 44分前 (0子コメント)
No-one has pinned this on "the entirety of the religion". They have said, rightly, that these people would not have committed these acts if they not been indoctrinated into believing that to serve or drink alcohol during an arbitrary month of the year is immoral.
Again, had they be raised on purely secular values, there would have been no way that this woman's actions could have been deemed objectionable, and thus, no reason for striking her.
You cannot dismiss the motivation for a crime because it does not fit with your "religious beliefs are entirely benign" narrative. One's beliefs can and do inform one's actions, and here, they clearly informed the choice of these men to assault this woman.
π Rendered by PID 12263 on app-58 at 2016-06-09 15:15:34.882384+00:00 running e22475f country code: JP.
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